(04-17-2020 10:11 AM)Monarchblue Wrote: [ -> ] (04-17-2020 09:56 AM)VB Monarch Wrote: [ -> ]If a million people die from opening to soon, how is that any different than a million dying from staying closed? Opening to soon will result in people being infected against their will and knowledge, caused by others who are willing to take a chance. This particular virus is highly contagious. Addiction, depression, anxiety, poverty are all non-contagious and there are resources available to help folks suffering from them.How do we know opening to soon won't lead to depression, certainly anxiety, etc anyhow? Saying we're open is not the same thing as saying people will all of a sudden come out and return to work or school and magically start spending money. What parent is going to say I'm sending my kids back to school now and just hope and pray they don't get sick and die?
The only way is to phase in reopening. The only way to safely phase in reopening is to have the ability to test at a massive scale. So far our government has proven wholly incapable of doing this.
With regards to your opening statement, I would say the difference is a) if 1 million people die from the depression or 1 million people die from the virus, then it is a wash as far as deaths go and we should worry more about the hundreds of millions, or billions of people whose lives would be better if we avoid a depression. And, b) Removing restrictions in non hot spots gives people the freedom to make their own choices. Individual liberty is something we should all hold dear as the beneficiaries of a nation founded on the principles of liberty. If you choose to go out into the world, you do so as an informed citizen, and you do so at your own risk, if you do not want to go out into the world, you are not being forced to. On the other hand, your position strips me of my rights and tells me that I have to do what you want me to do. So one position allows everyone freedom, and one position puts everyone under state control... and without any democratic process. You may be able to convince me to begrudgingly accept your position if there were at least a democratic process around it. If it went through state legislatures, and there was open debate, and our representative voted on a plan, rather than Governors ruling by fiat.
t's certainly an interesting dilemma. Individual rights vs rights of society. Like my right to free speech ends when yelling fire in a crowded theater. It could be that as the world becomes more complicated and dngerous we may well see a gradual erosion of individual rights. We certainly did right after 9/11. This may be inevitable. Personally I don't mind suspending certain rights for the better good, IF I'm confident the rights will be restored. The nature of the disease requires much proactive action. I'd prefer to see proactive overkill vs reaction after the fact. The Governor is our leader. No time for drawn out debate. He is taking decisive action and I'm all for it.
(04-17-2020 12:14 PM)Gilesfan Wrote: [ -> ] (04-17-2020 11:43 AM)ODUCoach Wrote: [ -> ] (04-17-2020 11:22 AM)Gilesfan Wrote: [ -> ] (04-17-2020 10:17 AM)ODUCoach Wrote: [ -> ] (04-17-2020 10:07 AM)Gilesfan Wrote: [ -> ]Testing has to be widely available before we open up anything. Without the ability to know who is spreading, any openings are dangerous.
I disagree. I don't think we need widely available testing before we open the playgrounds for people to play pickup hoops or to have a family picnic. But, that's just my opinion.
I dont understand how having healthy, asymptomatic people at the park spreading this virus is the answer. A family gathering is what lead to Chicago getting hammered.
Six months from now this logic is still going to apply. Are we really going to shut down everything until a test is available to everyone?
Test/Vaccine or herd immunity....I would hope. Opening before that will likely be a disaster.
Yes, but keeping everything closed will absolutely be a disaster. It already is.
(04-17-2020 11:24 AM)Cyniclone Wrote: [ -> ]Good effort, but this boat is off the horizon and they've torn down the dock.
not sure what that means but OK...
(04-17-2020 02:23 PM)ccbengal Wrote: [ -> ] (04-17-2020 11:24 AM)Cyniclone Wrote: [ -> ]Good effort, but this boat is off the horizon and they've torn down the dock.
not sure what that means but OK...
Some people are completely humorless without regard to the situation.
(04-17-2020 02:23 PM)ccbengal Wrote: [ -> ] (04-17-2020 11:24 AM)Cyniclone Wrote: [ -> ]Good effort, but this boat is off the horizon and they've torn down the dock.
not sure what that means but OK...
I'm saying your attempt at levity, while appreciated, is probably not going to work with everyone deep in battle mode.
(04-17-2020 11:24 AM)Cyniclone Wrote: [ -> ] (04-17-2020 11:01 AM)ccbengal Wrote: [ -> ]How about a little quarantine levity!...
Half of us are going to come out of this quarantine as amazing cooks. The other half will come out with a drinking problem.
I used to spin that toilet paper like I was on wheel of fortune. Now I turn it like I’m cracking a safe.
Still haven’t decided where to go for Easter……The Living Room or The Bedroom.
Every few days try your jeans on to make sure they still fit. Pajamas will have you believing all is well in the kingdom. I need to practice social-distancing from the refrigerator.
Homeschooling is going well. Two students were suspended for fighting and one teacher was fired for drinking on the job (my fav)
This morning I saw a neighbor talking to her cat. It was obvious she thought her cat understood her. I came into the house and told my dog. We had a good laugh over it.
So, after the quarantine, will the producers of My 600 Pound Life find me or do I find them?
Quarantine day 5: Went to this restaurant called The Kitchen. You have to gather all the ingredients and make your own meal. I have no clue how this place stays in business.
My body has absorbed so much soap and disinfectant lately that when I pee it cleans the toilet.
Day 5 of Homeschooling: One of these little monsters called in a bomb threat.
I’m so excited—it’s time to take out the garbage! What should I wear?
I hope the weather is good tomorrow for my trip to "Puerto Backyarda". ‘M getting tired of "Los Living room".
Classified Ad: Single man with toilet paper seeking woman with hand sanitizer for good clean fun.
Day 6 of Homeschooling: My child just said "I hope I don’t have the same teacher next year." I am offended.
Better 6 feet apart than 6 feet under. Stay safe
Good effort, but this boat is off the horizon and they've torn down the dock.
Pffft...this boat was scuttled by a mutinous crew while still in port.
J/K. Thanks for the yolks, Bengal!
(04-16-2020 09:51 AM)DaBigBlue Wrote: [ -> ]![[Image: 5b2c0bd41ae66236008b46a4?width=800&a...;auto=webp]](https://i.insider.com/5b2c0bd41ae66236008b46a4?width=800&format=jpeg&auto=webp)
LOL. I guess there is but one acceptable choice
(04-17-2020 05:38 AM)Grommet Wrote: [ -> ] (04-15-2020 07:05 PM)Grommet Wrote: [ -> ] (04-14-2020 05:22 PM)Grommet Wrote: [ -> ] (04-13-2020 08:40 AM)Grommet Wrote: [ -> ] (04-12-2020 10:49 AM)Grommet Wrote: [ -> ]4/12: 39,985 tested, 5274 positive...13.1%
4/13: 41,401 tested, 5747 positive...13.8%
4/14: 42,673 tested, 6171 positive...14.4%
4/15: 44,169 tested, 6500 positive...14.7%
4/16: 46,444 tested, 6889 positive...14.8%
4/17: 48,997 tested, 7491 positive...15.2%
(04-17-2020 04:54 PM)Grommet Wrote: [ -> ] (04-17-2020 05:38 AM)Grommet Wrote: [ -> ] (04-15-2020 07:05 PM)Grommet Wrote: [ -> ] (04-14-2020 05:22 PM)Grommet Wrote: [ -> ] (04-13-2020 08:40 AM)Grommet Wrote: [ -> ]4/13: 41,401 tested, 5747 positive...13.8%
4/14: 42,673 tested, 6171 positive...14.4%
4/15: 44,169 tested, 6500 positive...14.7%
4/16: 46,444 tested, 6889 positive...14.8%
4/17: 48,997 tested, 7491 positive...15.2%
4/18: 51,931 tested, 8053 positive...15.5%
Doubling in 9 days now (4/09 4042 positive)
Also, was it here that the argument was made that most of the VA cases were nursing-home oriented? Per VDH numbers, 1 in 8 cases is facility-oriented (nursing home, hospital, prison, etc)
(04-18-2020 08:00 AM)Grommet Wrote: [ -> ] (04-17-2020 04:54 PM)Grommet Wrote: [ -> ] (04-17-2020 05:38 AM)Grommet Wrote: [ -> ] (04-15-2020 07:05 PM)Grommet Wrote: [ -> ] (04-14-2020 05:22 PM)Grommet Wrote: [ -> ]4/14: 42,673 tested, 6171 positive...14.4%
4/15: 44,169 tested, 6500 positive...14.7%
4/16: 46,444 tested, 6889 positive...14.8%
4/17: 48,997 tested, 7491 positive...15.2%
4/18: 51,931 tested, 8053 positive...15.5%
Doubling in 9 days now (4/09 4042 positive)
It should be noted that those numbers reflect the number of positive tests, which is a reflection of the number of tests administered. So, we really have no idea how long it is taking to double the number of cases or how many people actually have/had COVID.
For example, the Stanford study found that there may be as many as 85 times the number of cases in Santa Clara vs what has been confirmed via positive tests.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/17/santa-cl...pread.html
BTW, that puts the death rate in Santa Clara in the .1% range.
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(04-18-2020 04:33 PM)smudge12 Wrote: [ -> ] (04-18-2020 10:52 AM)Monarchblue Wrote: [ -> ]BTW, that puts the death rate in Santa Clara in the .1% range.
No, it's just saying that's the estimated infection rate.
We'd also need to figure who passed from the virus without being counted to get the true death rate.
I think it is pretty well accepted that the death numbers are fairly accurate, but I guess there is no room for considering potentially good news in this climate.
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Seems the quarantine is breaking down. Roads and strip malls looked like a normal Saturday today. This is the end.
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(04-18-2020 10:38 PM)ODUCoach Wrote: [ -> ]
Sorry - it’s not that simple.
(04-18-2020 09:57 PM)EverRespect Wrote: [ -> ]Seems the quarantine is breaking down. Roads and strip malls looked like a normal Saturday today. This is the end.
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We just drove around today and thought the same. Guess everyone wanted to spend there checks. Scares me, I got a mom in a retirement home.
(04-18-2020 10:50 PM)ODUDJ96 Wrote: [ -> ] (04-18-2020 10:38 PM)ODUCoach Wrote: [ -> ]
Sorry - it’s not that simple.
This is unquestionably correct -- it's not that simple.
So why is it okay to treat the response to the virus as simply an exercise in authoritarianism? And to reduce the argument to charges of uncaring selfishness on the part of those who disagree? Or to wave the flag of libertarianism without acknowledging what it may mean to the health and wellbeing of others?
It's not that simple. On the one hand, my 95-year-old father has not had an in-person visit from a family member in nearly four weeks. I worry about him every minute of every day. On the other hand, I am now dipping into personal savings to meet my company's payroll, on the hope that my PPP loan application will be funded. Even then, it will take months for me to ramp my revenue stream back up to pre-shutdown levels. Our politicians, on both sides, are basking in the limelight, while patting themselves on the back. Meanwhile, this feels to me to be a daily countdown to my financial ruin, no matter how we address the crisis.
And here's the real rub: for those of you who think you can counsel or lecture me on how I should be dealing with these stresses, or think it appropriate to charge me with racism for holding a different viewpoint than you, it's not that simple.
The posters I admire most on this thread are those that have stated their views in a balanced fashion, and not resorted to hysterics of accusing the other side of selfishly wishing harm on other people. Grommet, Monarchblue, DaBig, Smudge, Cyniclone, EverRespect and Coach come to mind. Well done guys. The rest of us (me included) should take a lesson.
Because it's not that simple.
I wish you well Adopted. I missed out of the PPP apparently as it ran out of money before my business was funded. I got an email yesterday that i was approved for the EIDL but I mistakenly did not request a grant so I missed out on several thousand...ugh.
I do believe there will be another round of funding once the dems and pubs figure out how to actually get the money to small businesses instead of the Ruths Chris’s of the world.
My biggest issue (well beside business possibly shutting down) is that what we are doing seems to be working fairly well. But people are using that to prove that we should open up and that isnt logical... we are doing well bc of distancing not that the virus is less potent.
Testing is the key to all of this. And i believe the economy (and my business) with thrive once we survive this. Put as much money as you can in the stock market.