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Full Version: OT- Corona Virus- Where do we go from here?
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Just for fun, I watched Tucker Carlson last night to get the Fox take on the virus. Then, later that night, I watched Brian Williams to get MSNBC's take on the virus. It was if I were living on two different planets given their opinions on where we go from here. The difference in outlooks was startling.
(04-28-2020 05:26 PM)Grommet Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-27-2020 07:33 PM)Grommet Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-26-2020 11:26 AM)Grommet Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-25-2020 06:14 PM)Grommet Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-24-2020 12:17 PM)Grommet Wrote: [ -> ]4/24: 69, 015 tested, 11,594 positive...16.8%

4/25: 72,178 tested, 12,366 positive...17.1%

4/26: 76,118 tested, 12,970 positive...17.0%

4/27: 80,180 tested, 13,535 positive...16.9%

4/28: 82,753 tested, , 14,339 positive...17.3%

4/29: 85,307 tested, 14,961 positive...17.5%

60k dead in about 2 months under an extreme quarantine.

People who still want to compare this to the flu and act like this is media hype is absurd.

If states open back up completely we are absolutely inviting a second wave.
(04-29-2020 10:14 PM)Razor Ramon Monarch Wrote: [ -> ]60k dead in about 2 months under an extreme quarantine.

People who still want to compare this to the flu and act like this is media hype is absurd.

If states open back up completely we are absolutely inviting a second wave.
How do you imagine we avoid a second wave rather than just delay it with a lockdown?

Do you think we will be in a better position to deal with that second wave if it hits when hospitals have laid off a ton of staff, and are on the verge of bankruptcy? That is where we are heading with the status quo. Many are already facing those challenges.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
(04-29-2020 10:22 PM)Monarchblue Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-29-2020 10:14 PM)Razor Ramon Monarch Wrote: [ -> ]60k dead in about 2 months under an extreme quarantine.

People who still want to compare this to the flu and act like this is media hype is absurd.

If states open back up completely we are absolutely inviting a second wave.
How do you imagine we avoid a second wave rather than just delay it with a lockdown?

Do you think we will be in a better position to deal with that second wave if it hits when hospitals have laid off a ton of staff, and are on the verge of bankruptcy? That is where we are heading with the status quo. Many are already facing those challenges.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

We are buying more time to find a vaccine or better treatment.

There have been very promising developments with Gilead lately so hopefully we will see the results needed to start to open things back up.
(04-29-2020 11:21 PM)Razor Ramon Monarch Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-29-2020 10:22 PM)Monarchblue Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-29-2020 10:14 PM)Razor Ramon Monarch Wrote: [ -> ]60k dead in about 2 months under an extreme quarantine.

People who still want to compare this to the flu and act like this is media hype is absurd.

If states open back up completely we are absolutely inviting a second wave.
How do you imagine we avoid a second wave rather than just delay it with a lockdown?

Do you think we will be in a better position to deal with that second wave if it hits when hospitals have laid off a ton of staff, and are on the verge of bankruptcy? That is where we are heading with the status quo. Many are already facing those challenges.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

We are buying more time to find a vaccine or better treatment.

There have been very promising developments with Gilead lately so hopefully we will see the results needed to start to open things back up.

This is about the worst possible way of thinking. I am all for waiting for the exact right moment to open, but waiting for treatments for a virus is not going to cut it. I am astounded by the amount of people that completely disregard the long term issues with this. Just so everyone knows, by long term issues, I am not talking about money!
Yep. The inability for so many to see anything other than the total number of people who have the virus, and the total number of people who have died from it is extremely perplexing. I guess it just shows how much influence a media narrative really can have on the population.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
(04-30-2020 07:32 AM)Monarchblue Wrote: [ -> ]Yep. The inability for so many to see anything other than the total number of people who have the virus, and the total number of people who have died from it is extremely perplexing. I guess it just shows how much influence a media narrative really can have on the population.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

So if people don't agree with you then its because the media narrative has influenced them?
(04-30-2020 08:24 AM)Gilesfan Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2020 07:32 AM)Monarchblue Wrote: [ -> ]Yep. The inability for so many to see anything other than the total number of people who have the virus, and the total number of people who have died from it is extremely perplexing. I guess it just shows how much influence a media narrative really can have on the population.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

So if people don't agree with you then its because the media narrative has influenced them?

When people are unwilling to even examine the changing landscape of the situation, and consider new data that becomes available they are influenced by a narrative. When people are still stuck on outdated models that were using incomplete data, rather than evolving as the picture changes, they are influenced by a narrative. When people, for some reason, are still referencing the big infected number on the TV that everyone knows is a fraction of the people who actually have the virus, rather than looking at new science and data that changes the picture entirely, they are affected. When people are running full speed off a cliff without any consideration for how their policies may be making things worse by creating a second wave while hospitals are not fully staffed. They are affected.

Too much has changed to still have the exact same position as you had 6 weeks ago. Almost nobody said this lockdown was going to last for months at the outset, because they knew that was not feasible, but there are a few of you out there who just refuse to accept that things need to open back up for a thousand reasons, and also cannot articulate what the end game for your lockdown is. Are we waiting for a vaccine that may be available in 18 months, or never? Because that seems to be the only end if you believe we need to stay locked down until it is safe for every single person to go outside.

Germany is opening back up. Sweden is more and more looking like the smartest guy in the room, and yet here we are talking about 2 years of phase 1.
(04-30-2020 09:12 AM)Monarchblue Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2020 08:24 AM)Gilesfan Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2020 07:32 AM)Monarchblue Wrote: [ -> ]Yep. The inability for so many to see anything other than the total number of people who have the virus, and the total number of people who have died from it is extremely perplexing. I guess it just shows how much influence a media narrative really can have on the population.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

So if people don't agree with you then its because the media narrative has influenced them?

When people are unwilling to even examine the changing landscape of the situation, and consider new data that becomes available they are influenced by a narrative. When people are still stuck on outdated models that were using incomplete data, rather than evolving as the picture changes, they are influenced by a narrative. When people, for some reason, are still referencing the big infected number on the TV that everyone knows is a fraction of the people who actually have the virus, rather than looking at new science and data that changes the picture entirely, they are affected. When people are running full speed off a cliff without any consideration for how their policies may be making things worse by creating a second wave while hospitals are not fully staffed. They are affected.

Too much has changed to still have the exact same position as you had 6 weeks ago. Almost nobody said this lockdown was going to last for months at the outset, because they knew that was not feasible, but there are a few of you out there who just refuse to accept that things need to open back up for a thousand reasons, and also cannot articulate what the end game for your lockdown is. Are we waiting for a vaccine that may be available in 18 months, or never? Because that seems to be the only end if you believe we need to stay locked down until it is safe for every single person to go outside.

Germany is opening back up. Sweden is more and more looking like the smartest guy in the room, and yet here we are talking about 2 years of phase 1.

Really? I honestly cannot understand how someone did not believe they were going to be in quarantine for a significant amount of time. We moved all of our operations outside of the office bc we figured it would be unlikely to resume in office operations before the end of summer. Did people really believe it was a 2 week thing and resume?

Germany actually saw an uptick after trying to loosen some strings. It sounds questionable whether they open things up any time soon.

If people think the Sweden model is a good idea, it's going to come with a high death toll. Despite having low population density, single member housesolds, and low dense environment, they have had 2,586 deaths (population of 10.23 million). Just pro rating that gives us 80,000 deaths before even accounting for how much more dense the US is and the number of households that are multiple member households.

Some seem to believe killing off our old, weak, and sick so they can go back to living life normally is the answer. Thats just not a position I'm going to support. Id rather bite the bullet now and get better research/information for how we are going to attack this.
(04-30-2020 09:30 AM)Gilesfan Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2020 09:12 AM)Monarchblue Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2020 08:24 AM)Gilesfan Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2020 07:32 AM)Monarchblue Wrote: [ -> ]Yep. The inability for so many to see anything other than the total number of people who have the virus, and the total number of people who have died from it is extremely perplexing. I guess it just shows how much influence a media narrative really can have on the population.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

So if people don't agree with you then its because the media narrative has influenced them?

When people are unwilling to even examine the changing landscape of the situation, and consider new data that becomes available they are influenced by a narrative. When people are still stuck on outdated models that were using incomplete data, rather than evolving as the picture changes, they are influenced by a narrative. When people, for some reason, are still referencing the big infected number on the TV that everyone knows is a fraction of the people who actually have the virus, rather than looking at new science and data that changes the picture entirely, they are affected. When people are running full speed off a cliff without any consideration for how their policies may be making things worse by creating a second wave while hospitals are not fully staffed. They are affected.

Too much has changed to still have the exact same position as you had 6 weeks ago. Almost nobody said this lockdown was going to last for months at the outset, because they knew that was not feasible, but there are a few of you out there who just refuse to accept that things need to open back up for a thousand reasons, and also cannot articulate what the end game for your lockdown is. Are we waiting for a vaccine that may be available in 18 months, or never? Because that seems to be the only end if you believe we need to stay locked down until it is safe for every single person to go outside.

Germany is opening back up. Sweden is more and more looking like the smartest guy in the room, and yet here we are talking about 2 years of phase 1.

Really? I honestly cannot understand how someone did not believe they were going to be in quarantine for a significant amount of time. We moved all of our operations outside of the office bc we figured it would be unlikely to resume in office operations before the end of summer. Did people really believe it was a 2 week thing and resume?

Germany actually saw an uptick after trying to loosen some strings. It sounds questionable whether they open things up any time soon.

If people think the Sweden model is a good idea, it's going to come with a high death toll. Despite having low population density, single member housesolds, and low dense environment, they have had 2,586 deaths (population of 10.23 million). Just pro rating that gives us 80,000 deaths before even accounting for how much more dense the US is and the number of households that are multiple member households.

Some seem to believe killing off our old, weak, and sick so they can go back to living life normally is the answer. Thats just not a position I'm going to support. Id rather bite the bullet now and get better research/information for how we are going to attack this.

You don't seem interested in accounting for a second wave. Does that mean you would have the country stay locked down until a vaccine is found. That could be 18 months to forever.

Germany: Of course there was a spike. Nobody believes that you can reopen without a spike. That is the entire reason that people are questioning whether the lockdown was the right choice in the first place. It seems that it will do nothing more than delay the inevitable. There are two options that will not lead to a second wave. Herd immunity, which requires people to go outside, and a vaccine which may or may not arrive in 18 months.

Sweden: Of course their initial numbers are high (although they are mostly in line with the rest of Europe). They are playing the long game, which means herd immunity, and no second wave.

I don't know how this is so hard to understand, unless your position is that we should stay locked down until there is a vaccine.

My position is that we have one job. Make sure that hospitals are not overwhelmed, and I think we have good enough tracking in place at the hospital level to avoid that.
(04-30-2020 09:41 AM)Monarchblue Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2020 09:30 AM)Gilesfan Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2020 09:12 AM)Monarchblue Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2020 08:24 AM)Gilesfan Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2020 07:32 AM)Monarchblue Wrote: [ -> ]Yep. The inability for so many to see anything other than the total number of people who have the virus, and the total number of people who have died from it is extremely perplexing. I guess it just shows how much influence a media narrative really can have on the population.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

So if people don't agree with you then its because the media narrative has influenced them?

When people are unwilling to even examine the changing landscape of the situation, and consider new data that becomes available they are influenced by a narrative. When people are still stuck on outdated models that were using incomplete data, rather than evolving as the picture changes, they are influenced by a narrative. When people, for some reason, are still referencing the big infected number on the TV that everyone knows is a fraction of the people who actually have the virus, rather than looking at new science and data that changes the picture entirely, they are affected. When people are running full speed off a cliff without any consideration for how their policies may be making things worse by creating a second wave while hospitals are not fully staffed. They are affected.

Too much has changed to still have the exact same position as you had 6 weeks ago. Almost nobody said this lockdown was going to last for months at the outset, because they knew that was not feasible, but there are a few of you out there who just refuse to accept that things need to open back up for a thousand reasons, and also cannot articulate what the end game for your lockdown is. Are we waiting for a vaccine that may be available in 18 months, or never? Because that seems to be the only end if you believe we need to stay locked down until it is safe for every single person to go outside.

Germany is opening back up. Sweden is more and more looking like the smartest guy in the room, and yet here we are talking about 2 years of phase 1.

Really? I honestly cannot understand how someone did not believe they were going to be in quarantine for a significant amount of time. We moved all of our operations outside of the office bc we figured it would be unlikely to resume in office operations before the end of summer. Did people really believe it was a 2 week thing and resume?

Germany actually saw an uptick after trying to loosen some strings. It sounds questionable whether they open things up any time soon.

If people think the Sweden model is a good idea, it's going to come with a high death toll. Despite having low population density, single member housesolds, and low dense environment, they have had 2,586 deaths (population of 10.23 million). Just pro rating that gives us 80,000 deaths before even accounting for how much more dense the US is and the number of households that are multiple member households.

Some seem to believe killing off our old, weak, and sick so they can go back to living life normally is the answer. Thats just not a position I'm going to support. Id rather bite the bullet now and get better research/information for how we are going to attack this.

You don't seem interested in accounting for a second wave. Does that mean you would have the country stay locked down until a vaccine is found. That could be 18 months to forever.

Germany: Of course there was a spike. Nobody believes that you can reopen without a spike. That is the entire reason that people are questioning whether the lockdown was the right choice in the first place. It seems that it will do nothing more than delay the inevitable. There are two options that will not lead to a second wave. Herd immunity, which requires people to go outside, and a vaccine which may or may not arrive in 18 months.

Sweden: Of course their initial numbers are high (although they are mostly in line with the rest of Europe). They are playing the long game, which means herd immunity, and no second wave.

I don't know how this is so hard to understand, unless your position is that we should stay locked down until there is a vaccine.

My position is that we have one job. Make sure that hospitals are not overwhelmed, and I think we have good enough tracking in place at the hospital level to avoid that.

My viewpoint is that we stay locked down or or heavily socially distanced until we get more testing and better policies in place. Ideally there is a vaccine but that might not be feasible. There are some positive indications of drug treatment but its still too early to tell on that point.

No one has said we lock down until every single person is safe. That's just more hyperbole on your part. I will never agree with your viewpoint on putting people at risk, it's just not going to happen. The numbers don't support it. Until we figure out a plan that will allow us to prevent hundreds of thousands dying, I'm going to support locking it down. At this point, we are putting way too many lives at risk by opening. We don't have that now because we didn't take this serious in January and February when we should have.

And we have too many people believing these two clowns:

https://www.kqed.org/news/11814749/baker...5xCa863KEQ
(04-30-2020 08:24 AM)Gilesfan Wrote: [ -> ]So if people don't agree with you then its because the media narrative has influenced them?


(04-30-2020 09:30 AM)Gilesfan Wrote: [ -> ]Some seem to believe killing off our old, weak, and sick so they can go back to living life normally is the answer.

On the one hand, it is bad form to suggest that a narrative-driven media might have some impact upon peoples' opinions. On the other hand, it is perfectly okay to accuse those who disagree with you of wanting to kill off granny.

These two quotes, appearing in the same post, should come with a warning concerning the risk of logical combustion.
(04-30-2020 09:56 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2020 08:24 AM)Gilesfan Wrote: [ -> ]So if people don't agree with you then its because the media narrative has influenced them?


(04-30-2020 09:30 AM)Gilesfan Wrote: [ -> ]Some seem to believe killing off our old, weak, and sick so they can go back to living life normally is the answer.

On the one hand, it is bad form to suggest that a narrative-driven media might have some impact upon peoples' opinions. On the other hand, it is perfectly okay to accuse those who disagree with you of wanting to kill off granny.

These two quotes, appearing in the same post, should come with a warning concerning the risk of logical combustion.

Please explain how I am wrong? With that plan, what would happen to that group of people? And I'm not saying anyone "wants" that to happen, but that is what would happen. Collateral damage for the greater good of our 401k?

People in this thread have already talked about having an acceptable number of deaths. No one wants anyone to die, but the plan of opening up will obviously come at the price of a large number of deaths (100% certain). We can tip toe around it but those are undeniable.
(04-30-2020 08:30 AM)ODUCoach Wrote: [ -> ]WHO Lauds Sweden as a model:

https://nypost.com/2020/04/29/who-lauds-...Hi0Ue0-bYU

We ain't Sweden.
(04-30-2020 09:59 AM)Gilesfan Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2020 09:56 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2020 08:24 AM)Gilesfan Wrote: [ -> ]So if people don't agree with you then its because the media narrative has influenced them?


(04-30-2020 09:30 AM)Gilesfan Wrote: [ -> ]Some seem to believe killing off our old, weak, and sick so they can go back to living life normally is the answer.

On the one hand, it is bad form to suggest that a narrative-driven media might have some impact upon peoples' opinions. On the other hand, it is perfectly okay to accuse those who disagree with you of wanting to kill off granny.

These two quotes, appearing in the same post, should come with a warning concerning the risk of logical combustion.

Please explain how I am wrong? With that plan, what would happen to that group of people? And I'm not saying anyone "wants" that to happen, but that is what would happen. Collateral damage for the greater good of our 401k?

People in this thread have already talked about having an acceptable number of deaths.

It is a perfectly legitimate concern. And you are a noble person for keeping it front and center.

But it is not, at least for some of us, the last and only word on the subject. Exploring ways to open up our economy NOW is also a perfectly legitimate consideration, and ought not be squelched with a "s.t.f.u. granny killer" response.
(04-30-2020 10:09 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2020 09:59 AM)Gilesfan Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2020 09:56 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2020 08:24 AM)Gilesfan Wrote: [ -> ]So if people don't agree with you then its because the media narrative has influenced them?


(04-30-2020 09:30 AM)Gilesfan Wrote: [ -> ]Some seem to believe killing off our old, weak, and sick so they can go back to living life normally is the answer.

On the one hand, it is bad form to suggest that a narrative-driven media might have some impact upon peoples' opinions. On the other hand, it is perfectly okay to accuse those who disagree with you of wanting to kill off granny.

These two quotes, appearing in the same post, should come with a warning concerning the risk of logical combustion.

Please explain how I am wrong? With that plan, what would happen to that group of people? And I'm not saying anyone "wants" that to happen, but that is what would happen. Collateral damage for the greater good of our 401k?

People in this thread have already talked about having an acceptable number of deaths.

It is a perfectly legitimate concern. And you are a noble person for keeping it front and center.

But it is not, at least for some of us, the last and only word on the subject. Exploring ways to open up our economy NOW is also a perfectly legitimate consideration, and ought not be squelched with a "s.t.f.u. granny killer" response.

I don't remember a post saying anything similar to STFU granny killer.
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