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Full Version: OT- Corona Virus- Where do we go from here?
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(06-24-2020 01:53 PM)mturn017 Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-24-2020 01:28 PM)Monarchblue Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-24-2020 01:10 PM)mturn017 Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-24-2020 01:05 PM)ODUCoach Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-24-2020 12:44 PM)mturn017 Wrote: [ -> ]Kids are absolutely spreading it. There's no question about it. Documented and verified. The question is if they spread it at the same rate as adults or at a lower rate. There are very few places in the world that we can look because everywhere minus Sweden because almost everywhere where schools have returned have been modified and if they're not testing the kids they don't know if they are the source of the cluster because they're typically not exhibiting symptoms. With pretty much every other respiratory disease known to man the answer would be, yes of course kids can spread the disease. In fact they're more likely to spread it because you can't get them to social distance and they use the back of their hands as tissues. So without evidence otherwise you want to assume that this virus is the exception and put the most effective germ spreading institution into full swing? And yes there have been cases of clusters in schools but typically amongst the teachers, the kids aren't getting tested.

You stating it on a message board neither documents it nor verifies. At best, the science is inconclusive. To state otherwise is simply letting your feelings take the place of the science.

This study "ooked at staff and students at five primary schools and 10 high schools from March to mid-April found that, out of 863 people who were in close contact with someone with Covid-19, only two, or 0.23%, contracted the new coronavirus. The researchers concluded that transmission of the coronavirus "in children in schools appears considerably less than seen for other respiratory viruses, such as influenza."
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/...ocument/p1

This study followed one pediatric case who visited 3 different schools while symptomatic. Seven days after the first cases were diagnosed, 1 tertiary case was detected in a symptomatic patient with from the chalet ) he had stayed in chalet at some point) a positive endotracheal aspirate; all previous and concurrent nasopharyngeal specimens were negative. Additionally, 172 contacts were monitored; all contacts tested for SARS-CoV-2 (N = 73) were negative.

One health expert in Britain has said, there's "only one documented [Covid-19] outbreak associated with a school." He said, "[Y]ou would normally expect most of the outbreaks to be associated with schools but yet in global literature there is only one documented study. … It is pretty remarkable."

We've been told all along this is a "novel virus" so it's different than the rest. (That was the rationale to try to convince us it was going to have a 3% death rate). Maybe this is one of the differences?

Yes and maybe the difference is in 15 years all these kids that are asymptomatic will develop organ failure.

What?????????????????????? Are you just making stuff up now? Stay away from Alex Jones, or whoever the left wing version of Alex Jones is.... Rachel Madow? Stay away from her.

Yeah, I just made that up. We don't know anything about this virus, I'm glad that it's not affecting children at this time but I'm not ready to be as cavalier about it as you two. 6 months it's been affecting humans. Herpes virus, stays in your body for life can reappear. Chicken Pox Virus, stays in your body for life and can reappear. So what I described is not unheard of. Covid 19 attacks the ACE2 receptor in certain cells. These receptors are prevalent in the lungs but are found in many other cells throughout your body. We've seen people die of heart attacks & strokes. There's growing evidence that it can leave lasting damage on your lungs, heart, kidneys, can give you diabetes where before you were perfectly healthy. This is a strange virus and I think the fall will be worse than the spring.

Are you this vigilant about letting people drive their cars, because kids are a hell of a lot more likely to die of in a car accident over the next 15 years than from COVID.
(06-24-2020 01:56 PM)ODUalum78 Wrote: [ -> ]I think the jury is still out.



Quote:Children represent a small fraction of confirmed COVID-19 cases — less than 2% of reported infections in China, Italy and the United States have been in people under 18 years old.

Quote:... researchers are divided on whether children are less likely than adults to get infected and to spread the virus. Some say that a growing body of evidence suggests children are at lower risk. They are not responsible for the majority of transmission....


Quote:Other scientists argue against a rushed return to classrooms. They say the incidence of infection in children is lower than in adults partly because they haven’t been exposed to the virus as much — especially with many schools closed. And children are not getting tested as often as adults, because they tend to have mild or no symptoms.....

Quote:I do not see any strong biological or epidemiological reason to believe that children don’t get as infected


https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01354-0

I appreciate this, 78. I agree that the jury is still out. I'm just of the opinion that until we see actual evidence of school-centric outbreaks, the kids should be in school. There is almost no debate that this disruption to the education of our kids will have an impact moving forward, and in particular, create an even larger gap between the kids who have support at home for education and those that don't.

That Nature article is from May 7th. The article states, "If children are driving the spread of the virus, infections will probably spike in the next few weeks in countries where children have already returned to school, say scientists." I've looked and found nothing to indicate that the countries that reopened schools had spikes in the virus that were traced to schools. I had read the article before you posted it (which is where I got the links to some of the studies I posted), and only after failing to find evidence of school outbreaks from the countries that had reopened was I willing to post my thoughts before.
(06-24-2020 02:02 PM)Monarchblue Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-24-2020 01:56 PM)Gilesfan Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-24-2020 12:11 PM)Monarchblue Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-24-2020 11:27 AM)Gilesfan Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-24-2020 08:07 AM)ODUCoach Wrote: [ -> ]Is there any reason to believe this adults are getting the virus from the kids? If not, they aren't really at any greater risk than anyone else? In fact, they might be at far less risk than, say, the guys at the shipyard.

I don't think we know for sure whether adults can get the virus from kids. Its seems at best, there is a low chance. What about adults to adults?

If it is adult to adult you are worried about, what makes teachers more sacred than the millions of other people in the US that are expected to go to work every day? Why are teachers not considered essential. They get a pass while all the other essential employees are required to go to work and, in your opinion, put themselves at serious risk?

I don't understand. Do you think I believe others should be going to work every day?

Do you think essential workers should be working?

I disagree on some that are categorized as essential workers (like myself, lol) but I'm not going through the list and checking boxes on who I think should be essential or not. I hope the truly essential workers that "HAVE" to work are being as safe as they possibly can.
(06-24-2020 02:02 PM)Monarchblue Wrote: [ -> ]This is an interesting article that puts things into perspective.

https://townhall.com/columnists/philkerp...e-n2571160

It is crazy to me that there are still a ton of people who don't admit that we would have been much better off if the focus of our Governors was on LTCs rather than locking down every healthy person in the state, while forcing COVID positive seniors into LTCs where they infected the entire facility. 55% is a huge number, 70,000 to be precise, and the fact that the 7 states that enacted this policy account for 60% (77,000) of deaths should absolutely outrage everyone with a heart, and yet for some reason nobody seems to care all that much. People are more concerned with a handful of college football players testing positive than the fact that vast numbers of our most vulnerable were killed by the horrendous policies of people in power, some of whom are lauded as some sort of COVID saint. Its appalling really.

There is a lot of conjecture in that conservative website. The websites existence appears to be to defend Trump. Is that really where we should read opinion pieces?
Here's my problem with the government deciding who is "essential." Essentially, my father lost his job as a truck mechanic. He wasn't essential. His girlfriend who has built an awesome dance studio business has been deemed not essential and if the shutdown lasts one more month, she will basically lose the business for good. It's not likely that they'll be able to keep their home. They'll be 60 years old and basically have their lives destroyed because their Governor (they live in another state) has determined they weren't essential.
(06-24-2020 02:11 PM)Gilesfan Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-24-2020 02:02 PM)Monarchblue Wrote: [ -> ]This is an interesting article that puts things into perspective.

https://townhall.com/columnists/philkerp...e-n2571160

It is crazy to me that there are still a ton of people who don't admit that we would have been much better off if the focus of our Governors was on LTCs rather than locking down every healthy person in the state, while forcing COVID positive seniors into LTCs where they infected the entire facility. 55% is a huge number, 70,000 to be precise, and the fact that the 7 states that enacted this policy account for 60% (77,000) of deaths should absolutely outrage everyone with a heart, and yet for some reason nobody seems to care all that much. People are more concerned with a handful of college football players testing positive than the fact that vast numbers of our most vulnerable were killed by the horrendous policies of people in power, some of whom are lauded as some sort of COVID saint. Its appalling really.

There is a lot of conjecture in that conservative website. The websites existence appears to be to defend Trump. Is that really where we should read opinion pieces?

Ahh attack the source rather than the facts.
(06-24-2020 03:10 PM)Monarchblue Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-24-2020 02:11 PM)Gilesfan Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-24-2020 02:02 PM)Monarchblue Wrote: [ -> ]This is an interesting article that puts things into perspective.

https://townhall.com/columnists/philkerp...e-n2571160

It is crazy to me that there are still a ton of people who don't admit that we would have been much better off if the focus of our Governors was on LTCs rather than locking down every healthy person in the state, while forcing COVID positive seniors into LTCs where they infected the entire facility. 55% is a huge number, 70,000 to be precise, and the fact that the 7 states that enacted this policy account for 60% (77,000) of deaths should absolutely outrage everyone with a heart, and yet for some reason nobody seems to care all that much. People are more concerned with a handful of college football players testing positive than the fact that vast numbers of our most vulnerable were killed by the horrendous policies of people in power, some of whom are lauded as some sort of COVID saint. Its appalling really.

There is a lot of conjecture in that conservative website. The websites existence appears to be to defend Trump. Is that really where we should read opinion pieces?

Ahh attack the source rather than the facts.

I was attacking the opinions in the article. (Conjecture)
(06-24-2020 03:35 PM)Gilesfan Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-24-2020 03:10 PM)Monarchblue Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-24-2020 02:11 PM)Gilesfan Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-24-2020 02:02 PM)Monarchblue Wrote: [ -> ]This is an interesting article that puts things into perspective.

https://townhall.com/columnists/philkerp...e-n2571160

It is crazy to me that there are still a ton of people who don't admit that we would have been much better off if the focus of our Governors was on LTCs rather than locking down every healthy person in the state, while forcing COVID positive seniors into LTCs where they infected the entire facility. 55% is a huge number, 70,000 to be precise, and the fact that the 7 states that enacted this policy account for 60% (77,000) of deaths should absolutely outrage everyone with a heart, and yet for some reason nobody seems to care all that much. People are more concerned with a handful of college football players testing positive than the fact that vast numbers of our most vulnerable were killed by the horrendous policies of people in power, some of whom are lauded as some sort of COVID saint. Its appalling really.

There is a lot of conjecture in that conservative website. The websites existence appears to be to defend Trump. Is that really where we should read opinion pieces?

Ahh attack the source rather than the facts.

I was attacking the opinions in the article. (Conjecture)

Are you objecting to the statistics, because they kind of speak for themselves and are terrible on their own merit. So what does the conjecture matter?
Could your blood type make you less susceptible to COVID.

https://m.jpost.com/health-science/peopl...how-631502
I thought Northam was being too restrictive a couple of months ago, but he certainly seems to have made the right decision for the commonwealth. Other states that took a more liberal approach are now facing an imminent crisis.
(06-26-2020 05:47 AM)smudge12 Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-25-2020 08:57 PM)ODUDJ96 Wrote: [ -> ]I thought Northam was being too restrictive a couple of months ago, but he certainly seems to have made the right decision for the commonwealth. Other states that took a more liberal approach are now facing an imminent crisis.

Agreed.

However the problem is - unless state borders are closed - we're going to face a whack-a-mole situation with this thing unless EVERYONE gets on board wearing masks, social distancing, restricting indoor gatherings, working from home when feasible, etc.

We NEED a unified NATIONAL response.

I'm at the point where I'm really getting annoyed and angry because those who take it seriously are suffering because of those who don't, and we could have easily been done with the worst of this months ago.

You must belong to a different flock of sheep than I do.

This is not meant as a knock on Gov. Northam (for once), but rather as a general observation regarding the stunning naivete of the progressive mindset -- that humans will compliantly follow the directives handed down by their wiser and more noble leaders. What world did you grow up in? Can you give me an example, at least since our national unity in WWII, in which this ever was the case?

Tell you what, smudge. Please have your leaders direct the monument vandals to all immediately put down their spray paint cans, ropes and sledgehammers. Not nationally, just in your D.C. backyard. That, after all, is a much smaller ask, and I presume "could easily be done".

And if you can get that accomplished by this weekend, I will withdraw my comment and be your pom-pom-waving cheerleader for ever after.
(06-26-2020 06:42 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-26-2020 05:47 AM)smudge12 Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-25-2020 08:57 PM)ODUDJ96 Wrote: [ -> ]I thought Northam was being too restrictive a couple of months ago, but he certainly seems to have made the right decision for the commonwealth. Other states that took a more liberal approach are now facing an imminent crisis.

Agreed.

However the problem is - unless state borders are closed - we're going to face a whack-a-mole situation with this thing unless EVERYONE gets on board wearing masks, social distancing, restricting indoor gatherings, working from home when feasible, etc.

We NEED a unified NATIONAL response.

I'm at the point where I'm really getting annoyed and angry because those who take it seriously are suffering because of those who don't, and we could have easily been done with the worst of this months ago.

You must belong to a different flock of sheep than I do.

This is not meant as a knock on Gov. Northam (for once), but rather as a general observation regarding the stunning naivete of the progressive mindset -- that humans will compliantly follow the directives handed down by their wiser and more noble leaders. What world did you grow up in? Can you give me an example, at least since our national unity in WWII, in which this ever was the case?

Tell you what, smudge. Please have your leaders direct the monument vandals to all immediately put down their spray paint cans, ropes and sledgehammers. Not nationally, just in your D.C. backyard. That, after all, is a much smaller ask, and I presume "could easily be done".

And if you can get that accomplished by this weekend, I will withdraw my comment and be your pom-pom-waving cheerleader for ever after.


Stopping people from protesting racial inequality is an easier ask than getting people to wear masks? Maybe liberals are naive to assume that peoples ideals are based in reason. You could be right.
(06-26-2020 08:01 AM)mturn017 Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-26-2020 06:42 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-26-2020 05:47 AM)smudge12 Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-25-2020 08:57 PM)ODUDJ96 Wrote: [ -> ]I thought Northam was being too restrictive a couple of months ago, but he certainly seems to have made the right decision for the commonwealth. Other states that took a more liberal approach are now facing an imminent crisis.

Agreed.

However the problem is - unless state borders are closed - we're going to face a whack-a-mole situation with this thing unless EVERYONE gets on board wearing masks, social distancing, restricting indoor gatherings, working from home when feasible, etc.

We NEED a unified NATIONAL response.

I'm at the point where I'm really getting annoyed and angry because those who take it seriously are suffering because of those who don't, and we could have easily been done with the worst of this months ago.

You must belong to a different flock of sheep than I do.

This is not meant as a knock on Gov. Northam (for once), but rather as a general observation regarding the stunning naivete of the progressive mindset -- that humans will compliantly follow the directives handed down by their wiser and more noble leaders. What world did you grow up in? Can you give me an example, at least since our national unity in WWII, in which this ever was the case?

Tell you what, smudge. Please have your leaders direct the monument vandals to all immediately put down their spray paint cans, ropes and sledgehammers. Not nationally, just in your D.C. backyard. That, after all, is a much smaller ask, and I presume "could easily be done".

And if you can get that accomplished by this weekend, I will withdraw my comment and be your pom-pom-waving cheerleader for ever after.


Stopping people from protesting racial inequality is an easier ask than getting people to wear masks? Maybe liberals are naive to assume that peoples ideals are based in reason. You could be right.

I would like to think so. There are existing laws against destruction of property, spitting on cops and the like. Not so for mask wearing. And the former behavior is much more likely to spread the disease than is the latter (at least in my unqualified opinion).
[Image: 46eor5.jpg]
(06-26-2020 08:04 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-26-2020 08:01 AM)mturn017 Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-26-2020 06:42 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-26-2020 05:47 AM)smudge12 Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-25-2020 08:57 PM)ODUDJ96 Wrote: [ -> ]I thought Northam was being too restrictive a couple of months ago, but he certainly seems to have made the right decision for the commonwealth. Other states that took a more liberal approach are now facing an imminent crisis.

Agreed.

However the problem is - unless state borders are closed - we're going to face a whack-a-mole situation with this thing unless EVERYONE gets on board wearing masks, social distancing, restricting indoor gatherings, working from home when feasible, etc.

We NEED a unified NATIONAL response.

I'm at the point where I'm really getting annoyed and angry because those who take it seriously are suffering because of those who don't, and we could have easily been done with the worst of this months ago.

You must belong to a different flock of sheep than I do.

This is not meant as a knock on Gov. Northam (for once), but rather as a general observation regarding the stunning naivete of the progressive mindset -- that humans will compliantly follow the directives handed down by their wiser and more noble leaders. What world did you grow up in? Can you give me an example, at least since our national unity in WWII, in which this ever was the case?

Tell you what, smudge. Please have your leaders direct the monument vandals to all immediately put down their spray paint cans, ropes and sledgehammers. Not nationally, just in your D.C. backyard. That, after all, is a much smaller ask, and I presume "could easily be done".

And if you can get that accomplished by this weekend, I will withdraw my comment and be your pom-pom-waving cheerleader for ever after.


Stopping people from protesting racial inequality is an easier ask than getting people to wear masks? Maybe liberals are naive to assume that peoples ideals are based in reason. You could be right.

I would like to think so. There are existing laws against destruction of property, spitting on cops and the like. Not so for mask wearing. And the former behavior is much more likely to spread the disease than is the latter (at least in my unqualified opinion).

You shouldn't be calling anyone naive then.
(06-26-2020 08:05 AM)mturn017 Wrote: [ -> ][Image: 46eor5.jpg]

Hah!

+2 for the revolting memory.
(06-26-2020 08:05 AM)mturn017 Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-26-2020 08:04 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-26-2020 08:01 AM)mturn017 Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-26-2020 06:42 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-26-2020 05:47 AM)smudge12 Wrote: [ -> ]Agreed.

However the problem is - unless state borders are closed - we're going to face a whack-a-mole situation with this thing unless EVERYONE gets on board wearing masks, social distancing, restricting indoor gatherings, working from home when feasible, etc.

We NEED a unified NATIONAL response.

I'm at the point where I'm really getting annoyed and angry because those who take it seriously are suffering because of those who don't, and we could have easily been done with the worst of this months ago.

You must belong to a different flock of sheep than I do.

This is not meant as a knock on Gov. Northam (for once), but rather as a general observation regarding the stunning naivete of the progressive mindset -- that humans will compliantly follow the directives handed down by their wiser and more noble leaders. What world did you grow up in? Can you give me an example, at least since our national unity in WWII, in which this ever was the case?

Tell you what, smudge. Please have your leaders direct the monument vandals to all immediately put down their spray paint cans, ropes and sledgehammers. Not nationally, just in your D.C. backyard. That, after all, is a much smaller ask, and I presume "could easily be done".

And if you can get that accomplished by this weekend, I will withdraw my comment and be your pom-pom-waving cheerleader for ever after.


Stopping people from protesting racial inequality is an easier ask than getting people to wear masks? Maybe liberals are naive to assume that peoples ideals are based in reason. You could be right.

I would like to think so. There are existing laws against destruction of property, spitting on cops and the like. Not so for mask wearing. And the former behavior is much more likely to spread the disease than is the latter (at least in my unqualified opinion).

You shouldn't be calling anyone naive then.

You are very much in the mainstream of current opinion. I realize that my views are the pretty much the definition of wrongthink in today's Orwellian world.
(06-26-2020 08:10 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-26-2020 08:05 AM)mturn017 Wrote: [ -> ][Image: 46eor5.jpg]

Hah!

+2 for the revolting memory.

A little levity
(06-26-2020 08:12 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-26-2020 08:05 AM)mturn017 Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-26-2020 08:04 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-26-2020 08:01 AM)mturn017 Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-26-2020 06:42 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote: [ -> ]You must belong to a different flock of sheep than I do.

This is not meant as a knock on Gov. Northam (for once), but rather as a general observation regarding the stunning naivete of the progressive mindset -- that humans will compliantly follow the directives handed down by their wiser and more noble leaders. What world did you grow up in? Can you give me an example, at least since our national unity in WWII, in which this ever was the case?

Tell you what, smudge. Please have your leaders direct the monument vandals to all immediately put down their spray paint cans, ropes and sledgehammers. Not nationally, just in your D.C. backyard. That, after all, is a much smaller ask, and I presume "could easily be done".

And if you can get that accomplished by this weekend, I will withdraw my comment and be your pom-pom-waving cheerleader for ever after.


Stopping people from protesting racial inequality is an easier ask than getting people to wear masks? Maybe liberals are naive to assume that peoples ideals are based in reason. You could be right.

I would like to think so. There are existing laws against destruction of property, spitting on cops and the like. Not so for mask wearing. And the former behavior is much more likely to spread the disease than is the latter (at least in my unqualified opinion).

You shouldn't be calling anyone naive then.

You are very much in the mainstream of current opinion. I realize that my views are the pretty much the definition of wrongthink in today's Orwellian world.

Well, that's the narrative in the very strong current that is the conservative groupthink. In no way or manner are you on the fringe or in a marginalized minority in this country by being conservative. But that's been the trend, to play the victim. I'm done talking politics though. Be safe, enjoy your summer and Go Monarchs!
The death toll continues to rise, primarily in nursing homes, because we had leaders (from both parties) who absolutely refused to protect our most vulnerable populations.

And, I must have missed my "million chances" to address this situation "without resorting to additional laws." It seems from the start, the government officials were chomping at the bit to take control of the situation. And, worse, they lied about it from the start. They said, "Two weeks to flatten the curve." It's been 100 days. And, I'm supposed to trust THEM with my safety?

Here's my perspective: I don't trust the government or anyone else with "my loved ones' safety or economic prosperity." The only person I trust with that is ME. I will make decisions in the best interest of my family. That's what this debate is all about.
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