CSNbbs

(06-09-2020 04:03 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-09-2020 02:56 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-09-2020 02:36 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-09-2020 02:15 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-09-2020 01:28 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, you wax eloquently about all the horrible and painful 'issues', and cry forlornly about the 'systemic problems', and when actual numbers pop forth all you do is a cheap vaudeville version of a tap dance.

Maybe instead of the opinion articles, and the loaded language you seemingly have an ending fing supply of, perhaps you address something a little more objective in nature. You know, kind of the way you ran away from ever commenting on 'systemic issues' and 'systemic problems' in the first instance.

I mean, seriously, even you have a fairly substantial stick up your ass about the issue of *any* "[X] Lives Matter" when [X] != Black. Funny that.

I don't have a stick up my ass about it. I am aware, though, that many black people find the term "All Lives Matter" dismissive to their plight.

Quote:Using your 'logic' many Hmong should be equally as incensed at the proposition of any "[X] Lives Matter" when [X] != Hmong.

Or more starkly, Hispanics should go through the fing roof under your logic with the proposition of any "[X] Lives Matter" when [X] != Hispanic.

I guess when you feast on the bull**** proposition that Blacks are suffering the jackboots of systematic oppression, I just might agree with your thought smorgasbord. But I have yet to see the evidence of the amazing and overriding steel cold oppression that sits at the core of your thesis (theology).

Did you read the article or nah?

How to you accurately quantify police mistreatment of black people?

And, once again, please particularize your grandiose allegation of 'police mistreatment of black people' perhaps?

I mean, you are supposedly a smart guy, Rice, yada yada yada. You do know the difference between 'generalized grandiose and conclusory statement' and 'put up something that backs that generalized grandiose and conclusory statement', right? Hopefully?

I mean, you have run the hell away in every instance from actually identifying *anything* regarding your previous statements on 'systemic blahbitty blah blah blah' and now replace it with an equally gossamer construct. Good job there '93.

Krist on fing cracker.

Quote:How do you quantify episodes similar to this morning's "cartoon"?

Uhhh... as vignettes. Proof by vignette falls horribly short of proof. That should be a basic logical construct. Apparently not.

Quote:Do you think that the mistreatment of black people is in America's rear-view mirror?

Perhaps not. But it certainly doesnt live up to the jackboot of total oppression that you make it out to be. Let me restate -- not up to the vacuous, glossy, and gossamer wisp that your persistent and continued conclusory statements do. Of course, you offer no objectivity to the your 'statements', yet are perplexed when there is a stated disbelief or statements that are critical over the bald and conclusory statements that seem to be your only form of sustenance in this issue.

If all you can state is nothing more than such issues, then hide behind those very non-substance bearing and conclusory statements -- your actions are nothing more than preaching.

Wait... you want me to prove that black people are negatively affected by racism in 2020?

Do you want to look at health outcomes of black versus white Americans? Even when stratified by income? The infant mortality rate of black kids versus white kids?
Maternal death rate?

Proof of 'rampant racism'? Seriously?

Quote:How about the rate that black people are imprisoned for drug-related crimes relative to the rate of white people convicted of similar crimes?

Proof of racism, or proof of a disparity of lawyering there?

Or better yet, you neglect the other categories of offenses in your cherry pick there. If you bother to look at 'all offenses' (that is including violent, property, drug, and weapon) whites are just as likely to receive incarceration than blacks. What is so fing special about 'drug offenses' and blacks, that is, aside from that being the major category out of whack? Please do tell....

Quote:Once out of prison, the rate of call-backs following job interviews for a black person with a criminal record relative to the rate that a white person with a criminal record?

'Once out of prison' --- for what mind you? You are aware that blacks have much higher rates of arrests and convictions for violent crimes and homicides, right? That probably has *nothing* to do with htat, because the only fing qualifier you put out there is 'once out of prison'. Yeah, I can see a real issue between a callback for a gangbanger/murder/armed assault and one for a forger. Your little qualifier there kind of glosses that over into oblivion, doesnt it?

Quote:Housing? How about the some mortgage programs used to be restricted to white applicants

Please do tell which mortgage programs are restricted to white applicants. Kind of been against Federal law for, oh, only about 40 fing years.

Quote:How about segregation, redlining, and laws that upheld housing discrimination?

See above.

Quote:Education? Do you think we have an equal public school setup for black versus white children?

Again, you seemingly conflate *anything* with a racial element to *proof* of racial discrimination -- invidious racial discrimination.

Funny, last I noted public schools are a construct of highly localized administration. You have great proof in inequities in the abilities of school administrations. That does not equate to proof of invidious racial discrimination.

Currently, your list is a grab bag of things that you *really* want to be about systemic racial discrimination, but really dont make the fing mark. That is the problem with argument by grab bag ****.

Quote:Do black kids often have teachers that look like them?

Proof of rampant systemic discrimination? get fing real. Since you asked this rhetorical question, perhaps you can do something that you have utterly failed to fing do since this came up --- perhaps educate us on how many black kids have teachers that look like them, then please do tell us what the **** that has to do with systemic racial discrimination.

Quote:How about the unequal way that punishment in schools is delivered?

Any sort of control on the unequality? Or is this just another grab bag of disparate items that you are clutching at? Maybe the unequal rates in punishment follows the national rates of convictions of violent crimes, that is, as opposed to some white cracker getting his jollies by spanking little black kids on an exlcusive basis.

Maybe it is an issue tied the absolute overloaded presence of fatherless households in the balck community, that is, one seemingly that is the black community's onus to fix. Naahhh, cant be that.

A black kid being more likely to be suspended at school for the same offense that a white kid committed? You're going to throw out fatherless black families to explain that one? I don't really follow that logic.

Quote:

Quote:How about being charged higher interest rates for loans despite the same income/credit scores as a white person?

How about the concept that a loan risk is tied to the security that lendee can show? *That* is simple gd economics.

Quote:How about falling asleep in the college commons and waking up to the police standing over you because somebody called them?

How about falling asleep on the side of the road in a Camaro and having the cops roust that person. Glad to know that is objective proof of systemic racism. Maybe you should tell Officer Torres that that cracker peckerhead was me. Want his number so you can preach that act of racism to him?

Ummm... that's not even remotely the same thing but cool story, bro.

Quote:That **** happens all the time to people of all races, mind you. But in your simpleton grab bag throw everything against the wall style, I am sure that precludes that answer.

Got it. No significant racism in America, then. You have the right to your own opinion. Black people have nothing to complain about these days which I guess is why "Black Lives Matter" is so offensive to you. It also helps explain why you seem surprisingly concerned that white people's feelings are not being adequately considered in the discussion of race in America.

(06-09-2020 04:16 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-09-2020 04:03 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:How about falling asleep in the college commons and waking up to the police standing over you because somebody called them?

How about falling asleep on the side of the road in a Camaro and having the cops roust that person. Glad to know that is objective proof of systemic racism. Maybe you should tell Officer Torres that that cracker peckerhead was me. Want his number so you can preach that act of racism to him?

Ummm... that's not even remotely the same thing but cool story, bro.

If you put your preconceived view of the world on hold, you just might note that it is.

The one thing I didnt note before, is that 'line item' is also a 'proof by vignette'. I knwo you cant comprehend that parallels between the two items above, but hopefully you *have* learned the perils of 'proof by vignette'. Maybe not. Actually from its inclusion, let me restate. Apparently not.

And yes, I agree with your last statement. And, quite unlike you, I dont ascribe anything and everything to 'racism' on a seeming automatic kneejerk basis. Sound good to you?

But, from the laundry list you provide, which may be proof of inequity in many other arenas, I dont automatically chalk it up to 'racism' like you assiduously show that you do on a very persistent and ongoing basis.

One might liken that series of ascribing everything to the kneejerk catchall of 'racism' as theologic in nature.

Listening to 93s harangue, I do wonder if he knows the differences between the concept of socio-economic disparities and the concept of 'racism'. They are quite different, and I wonder if 93 thinks they are the exact same thing? Or I wonder if that difference would even matter to him given his apparent religious views on it.

(06-09-2020 04:51 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]Listening to 93s harangue, I do wonder if he knows the differences between the concept of socio-economic disparities and the concept of 'racism'. They are quite different, and I wonder if 93 thinks they are the exact same thing? Or I wonder if that difference would even matter to him.

I don't think the they are the exact same thing but I do think that the cause of these disparities are rooted in racism (historical and/or contemporary).

If racism does not have a significant contribution to them, what are your thoughts as to the causation behind these agreed-upon socio-economic disparities between white and black people in America?

(06-09-2020 04:46 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-09-2020 04:16 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-09-2020 04:03 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:How about falling asleep in the college commons and waking up to the police standing over you because somebody called them?

How about falling asleep on the side of the road in a Camaro and having the cops roust that person. Glad to know that is objective proof of systemic racism. Maybe you should tell Officer Torres that that cracker peckerhead was me. Want his number so you can preach that act of racism to him?

Ummm... that's not even remotely the same thing but cool story, bro.

If you put your preconceived view of the world on hold, you just might note that it is.

Really?

Instance 1: A black graduate student at Yale falls asleep in a common area of her dorm while working on a paper. A white student finds her asleep in the common room and calls the police. https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/09/us/yale-s...index.html

Instance 2: Tanq falls asleep on the side of the road. The cops find him and roust him (presumably to check on his well-being and to make sure he wasn't drunk/otherwise a public risk).

You find those two situations equivalent?

(06-09-2020 04:16 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:

Quote:How about the unequal way that punishment in schools is delivered?

Any sort of control on the unequality? Or is this just another grab bag of disparate items that you are clutching at? Maybe the unequal rates in punishment follows the national rates of convictions of violent crimes, that is, as opposed to some white cracker getting his jollies by spanking little black kids on an exlcusive basis.

Maybe it is an issue tied the absolute overloaded presence of fatherless households in the balck community, that is, one seemingly that is the black community's onus to fix. Naahhh, cant be that.

A black kid being more likely to be suspended at school for the same offense that a white kid committed? You're going to throw out fatherless black families to explain that one? I don't really follow that logic.

Funny I dont find the studies that control 'for the same offense' that you pop off about there.

What I do find are scads of studies (and notes from the Obama Dept of Education entitled "CIVIL RIGHTS DATA COLLECTION") that simply note the raw rate of suspensions without noting *any* control of 'for the same offense' that you crow about.

https://ocrdata.ed.gov/Downloads/CRDC-Sc...apshot.pdf

So please do tell where you come up with your 'for the same offense' stuff there. Or is that simply you putting in an added element 'from the ether'?

(06-09-2020 05:04 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-09-2020 04:46 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-09-2020 04:16 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-09-2020 04:03 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:How about falling asleep in the college commons and waking up to the police standing over you because somebody called them?

How about falling asleep on the side of the road in a Camaro and having the cops roust that person. Glad to know that is objective proof of systemic racism. Maybe you should tell Officer Torres that that cracker peckerhead was me. Want his number so you can preach that act of racism to him?

Ummm... that's not even remotely the same thing but cool story, bro.

If you put your preconceived view of the world on hold, you just might note that it is.

Really?

Instance 1: A black graduate student at Yale falls asleep in a common area of her dorm while working on a paper. A white student finds her asleep in the common room and calls the police. https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/09/us/yale-s...index.html

Instance 2: Tanq falls asleep on the side of the road. The cops find him and roust him (presumably to check on his well-being and to make sure he wasn't drunk/otherwise a public risk).

You find those two situations equivalent?

For the proffer of proof of racism they are exactly the same, sir. Funny that.

(06-09-2020 04:57 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-09-2020 04:51 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]Listening to 93s harangue, I do wonder if he knows the differences between the concept of socio-economic disparities and the concept of 'racism'. They are quite different, and I wonder if 93 thinks they are the exact same thing? Or I wonder if that difference would even matter to him.

I don't think the they are the exact same thing but I do think that the cause of these disparities are rooted in racism (historical and/or contemporary).

If racism does not have a significant contribution to them, what are your thoughts as to the causation behind these agreed-upon socio-economic disparities between white and black people in America?

Many of the economic ones are rooted in history. Not a systemic pogrom of ongoing racist activity.

Some are rooted in some very serious issues that are ongoing in black societies in the United States. The epidemic of fatherless households being one. Another is the epidemic of violent crime and drugs in those same areas. Another is wave of incarceration for murder, heavy drug charges, and violent crime in those same communities. And each of those in that trio has very serious positive feedback effect on the other two.

No other ethnic makeup in our country has that triumvirate of issues. Those as a whole severely affect the macro composition of the group on the combination of sociologic, medical, and economic bases.

I have zero issue about facing those issues and seeking to address those very significant problems. And done correctly, those will inherently aid the educational *and* socio-economic problems associated with the black ethnicity.

On an individual basis, everyone has the ability to beat those cards. Unfortunately many do not. That is why, probably surprisingly to you, I actually volunteer services to schools and organizations that look at it as at least a part of the effort to 'save the black community' must come from within that black community. As opposed to those who preach that the major (if not sole) cause and effects are borne out of a bunch of white crackers who think that it is great to keep the jackboot heels on the necks of an ethnic group.

But to pawn off that morass of very serious socio-economic issues on current racism pogroms is just fing moronic. But that has been your explicit hue and cry, hasnt it?

And to your drumbeat that 'life is hell for black americans', to a major degree no -- it isnt hell on earth. For many it is not easy, but for the same token it is no easier for white crackers or Mexican crackers in the same socio-economic conditions.

But, the progressive screed is like a vampire -- instead of feeding on blood they feed on creating class and racial divides. The easiest story to tell is that the *entire* black nation, and all of the holy hell that pervades the communities that lack fathers, condone and accept violent illegal activity as the norm, is that none of this is your fault. It is *all* the work of the evil white devil. And, some dumb*** whites buy into that toxic story of 'it is all the white crackers fault' as well.

If it truly were a racist system, you wouldnt see the absolute success of the refugees from Southeast Asia in the early 80's. But that doesnt seemingly register on the progressive radar, it just gets passed over like a glitch in the electric service. As a group, the refugees from Vietnam and Cambodia were in the exact same boat as the black community in the 80's. I guess those nefarious slant eyes found some easy loophole around the white cracker racism that has its jackboots on everyone's throats. Or, maybe the culture of those SE Asian immigrants, with a strong sense of a nuclear family, and absurdly low rates of single parent homes, and an huge dedication to their own school systems as springboards *out* of their newly immigrant status actually did make inroads far greater in scale and in a much faster sense than the comparable black community because of those cultural differences.

So, in conclusion, feel free to 'racism' for anything and everything. At its core, the ideas you spring forth as evidence of such racism are actually, funny enough, also evidence of very deep problems in the African American community itself. Naaah, just go with your theology.... its all racism....

*That* is why I find your kneejerk solution so stupid, sir.

(06-09-2020 05:49 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-09-2020 04:57 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-09-2020 04:51 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]Listening to 93s harangue, I do wonder if he knows the differences between the concept of socio-economic disparities and the concept of 'racism'. They are quite different, and I wonder if 93 thinks they are the exact same thing? Or I wonder if that difference would even matter to him.

I don't think the they are the exact same thing but I do think that the cause of these disparities are rooted in racism (historical and/or contemporary).

If racism does not have a significant contribution to them, what are your thoughts as to the causation behind these agreed-upon socio-economic disparities between white and black people in America?

Many of the economic ones are rooted in history. Not a systemic pogrom of ongoing racist activity.

Some are rooted in some very serious issues that are ongoing in black societies in the United States. The epidemic of fatherless households being one. Another is the epidemic of violent crime and drugs in those same areas. Another is wave of incarceration for murder, heavy drug charges, and violent crime in those same communities. And each of those in that trio has very serious positive feedback effect on the other two.

No other ethnic makeup in our country has that triumvirate of issues. Those as a whole severely affect the macro composition of the group on the combination of sociologic, medical, and economic bases.

I have zero issue about facing those issues and seeking to address those very significant problems. And done correctly, those will inherently aid the educational *and* socio-economic problems associated with the black ethnicity.

On an individual basis, everyone has the ability to beat those cards. Unfortunately many do not. That is why, probably surprisingly to you, I actually volunteer services to schools and organizations that look at it as at least a part of the effort to 'save the black community' must come from within that black community. As opposed to those who preach that the major (if not sole) cause and effects are borne out of a bunch of white crackers who think that it is great to keep the jackboot heels on the necks of an ethnic group.

But to pawn off that morass of very serious socio-economic issues on current racism pogroms is just fing moronic. But that has been your explicit hue and cry, hasnt it?

And to your drumbeat that 'life is hell for black americans', to a major degree no -- it isnt hell on earth. For many it is not easy, but for the same token it is no easier for white crackers or Mexican crackers in the same socio-economic conditions.

But, the progressive screed is like a vampire -- instead of feeding on blood they feed on creating class and racial divides. The easiest story to tell is that the *entire* black nation, and all of the holy hell that pervades the communities that lack fathers, condone and accept violent illegal activity as the norm, is that none of this is your fault. It is *all* the work of the evil white devil. And, some dumb*** whites buy into that toxic story of 'it is all the white crackers fault' as well.

If it truly were a racist system, you wouldnt see the absolute success of the refugees from Southeast Asia in the early 80's. But that doesnt seemingly register on the progressive radar, it just gets passed over like a glitch in the electric service. As a group, the refugees from Vietnam and Cambodia were in the exact same boat as the black community in the 80's. I guess those nefarious slant eyes found some easy loophole around the white cracker racism that has its jackboots on everyone's throats. Or, maybe the culture of those SE Asian immigrants, with a strong sense of a nuclear family, and absurdly low rates of single parent homes, and an huge dedication to their own school systems as springboards *out* of their newly immigrant status actually did make inroads far greater in scale and in a much faster sense than the comparable black community because of those cultural differences.

So, in conclusion, feel free to 'racism' for anything and everything. At its core, the ideas you spring forth as evidence of such racism are actually, funny enough, also evidence of very deep problems in the African American community itself. Naaah, just go with your theology.... its all racism....

*That* is why I find your kneejerk solution so stupid, sir.

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/...and-blacks

Quote:"Sullivan's comments showcase a classic and tenacious conservative strategy," Janelle Wong, the director of Asian American Studies at the University of Maryland, College Park, said in an email. This strategy, she said, involves "1) ignoring the role that selective recruitment of highly educated Asian immigrants has played in Asian American success followed by 2) making a flawed comparison between Asian Americans and other groups, particularly Black Americans, to argue that racism, including more than two centuries of black enslavement, can be overcome by hard work and strong family values."

Quote:These arguments falsely conflate anti-Asian racism with anti-black racism, according to Kim. "Racism that Asian-Americans have experienced is not what black people have experienced," Kim said. "Sullivan is right that Asians have faced various forms of discrimination, but never the systematic dehumanization that black people have faced during slavery and continue to face today." Asians have been barred from entering the U.S. and gaining citizenship and have been sent to incarceration camps, Kim pointed out, but all that is different than the segregation, police brutality and discrimination that African-Americans have endured.

Quote:At the heart of arguments of racial advancement is the concept of "racial resentment," which is different than "racism," Slate's Jamelle Bouie recently wrote in his analysis of the Sullivan article. "Racial resentment" refers to a "moral feeling that blacks violate such traditional American values as individualism and self reliance," as defined by political scientists Donald Kinder and David Sears.

And, Bouie points out, "racial resentment" is simply a tool that people use to absolve themselves from dealing with the complexities of racism:

"In fact, racial resentment reflects a tension between the egalitarian self-image of most white Americans and that anti-black affect. The 'racist,' after all, is a figure of stigma. Few people want to be one, even as they're inclined to believe the measurable disadvantages blacks face are caused by something other than structural racism. Framing blacks as deficient and pathological rather than inferior offers a path out for those caught in that mental maze."

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2017...point.html

Quote:As historian Ellen Wu explains of these historical realities in The Color of Success: Asian Americans and the Origins of the Model Minority, “The United States’ battles against fascism and then Communism meant that Asiatic Exclusion, like Jim Crow, was no longer tenable.” The result, she argues, was the “entrance of Asian Americans into the national fold” and, in the 1960s, a “profound metamorphosis [of Asian Americans] into the model minority: the Asiatic who was at once a model citizen and definitely not-black.” Japanese and Chinese in the United States became “living examples of achievement in spite of the persistent color line and because of their racial (often coded as cultural) differences.” And this reasoning, in turn, “undergirded contentions that African Americans’ cultural deficiencies was the cause of their poverty—assertions that delegitimized blacks’ demands for structural changes in the political economy and stigmatized their utilization of welfare state entitlements.”

Even as he avoids the words black or African American, that charge—that black deficiency (or even pathology) drives black disadvantage—is the core of Sullivan’s inquiry. And his argument, unstated but clear as the blue sky, is that black Americans have only themselves and their culture to blame for continued racial inequality. That this flies in the face of what we know about structural and institutional disadvantage—of ongoing discrimination in jobs and housing, of the long and enduring effects of past discrimination and bias, of racial disadvantage among well-educated, two-parent black families, of the half-hearted efforts to remedy those accumulated burdens—is, at most, a minor obstacle in Sullivan’s narrative. It also flies in the face of what we know about Asian American gains, which followed that aforementioned—often politically motivated—mid-century decline in anti-Asian racism. Even still, Asian Americans face continued discrimination; among the highly educated, for instance, Asian men earned significantly less than their white counterparts.

There’s also nothing daring, or even novel, about Sullivan’s latest take. It’s old hat, a claim that’s been examined and discussed and litigated by a generation of scholars and experts. And the use of other nonwhite and immigrant groups to disparage blacks goes back to the 19th century. “But what has been the history of the negro race during these thousand years, while others, even the Chinese, the Hindoos, and Mexicans were marching on, according to the strength which nature endowed them respectively?” asked prolific racist theorist and author Josiah Nott in an 1866 essay arguing for black inferiority. This denigration by comparison has historically been so common that it’s a part of how social scientists measure anti-black animus.

the oppressiion continues

Nominated by Trump

Confirmed 98-0

the oppression continues

Nominated by Trump

Confirmed 98-0

Funny, that 'tenacious conservative strategy' is the one promulgated by the pastor of the black church that I do pro-bono for. Amazing the tentacles of that invidious, under the radar, conservative, racist effort.

Hate to tell you, the violent crime rates arent fiction. They are objective fact.
The rates of out of wedlock children arent fiction. Again objective fact.
The rates of incarceration arent fiction. Again objective fact.
Do you really think that the above have *zero* effect on the African American situation? Seriously?

Your response: its all a lie. None of that has *any* effect on the socio-economic plight of the African American community.
Its all racism. Systemic and pervasive racism, in fact.

Again, I wish there was a head slap emoji.....

(06-09-2020 06:53 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]the oppression continues

Nominated by Trump

Confirmed 98-0

I'd call it systemic racism myself. Seems all the fing rage amongst the 'in the know' set.

(06-09-2020 07:03 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]Funny, that 'tenacious conservative strategy' is the one promulgated by the pastor of the black church that I do pro-bono for. Amazing the tentacles of that invidious, under the radar, conservative, racist effort.

Hate to tell you, the violent crime rates arent fiction. They are objective fact.
The rates of out of wedlock children arent fiction. Again objective fact.
The rates of incarceration arent fiction. Again objective fact.
Do you really think that the above have *zero* effect on the African American situation? Seriously?

Your response: its all a lie. None of that has *any* effect on the socio-economic plight of the African American community.
Its all racism. Systemic and pervasive racism, in fact.

Again, I wish there was a head slap emoji.....

Why not both?

You seem to want to jump up and down refuting the idea that systemic racism, or it seems racism in general, is a problem that still lingers and substantially impacts black Americans. But you continue to brush aside the quantifiable evidence that shows how our justice system treats people differently based on their race.

You do note that there are structural issues that negatively affect the black community. What if there are both issues rooted in systemic racism AND some structural issues the black community has that need to be addressed? And what if, here me out, some of those structural issues are exacerbated by systemic racism?

Take for example the nuclear family - if we know that black men are disproportionately incarcerated compared to white men, doesn't that logically mean that there are likely less fathers around to fill out a nuclear family and provide stability?

(06-09-2020 07:47 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-09-2020 07:03 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]Funny, that 'tenacious conservative strategy' is the one promulgated by the pastor of the black church that I do pro-bono for. Amazing the tentacles of that invidious, under the radar, conservative, racist effort.

Hate to tell you, the violent crime rates arent fiction. They are objective fact.
The rates of out of wedlock children arent fiction. Again objective fact.
The rates of incarceration arent fiction. Again objective fact.
Do you really think that the above have *zero* effect on the African American situation? Seriously?

Your response: its all a lie. None of that has *any* effect on the socio-economic plight of the African American community.
Its all racism. Systemic and pervasive racism, in fact.

Again, I wish there was a head slap emoji.....

Why not both?

You seem to want to jump up and down refuting the idea that systemic racism, or it seems racism in general, is a problem that still lingers and substantially impacts black Americans. But you continue to brush aside the quantifiable evidence that shows how our justice system treats people differently based on their race.

You do note that there are structural issues that negatively affect the black community. What if there are both issues rooted in systemic racism AND some structural issues the black community has that need to be addressed? And what if, here me out, some of those structural issues are exacerbated by systemic racism?

Take for example the nuclear family - if we know that black men are disproportionately incarcerated compared to white men, doesn't that logically mean that there are likely less fathers around to fill out a nuclear family and provide stability?

Drop in the bucket.

Much, maybe all, of what you call "quantifiable evidence" has alternate explanations that are not racism. You guys do not listen to those alternatives.

You cannot complain that all things are not equal and then treat the stats as if all things were equal.

(06-09-2020 08:12 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-09-2020 07:47 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-09-2020 07:03 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]Funny, that 'tenacious conservative strategy' is the one promulgated by the pastor of the black church that I do pro-bono for. Amazing the tentacles of that invidious, under the radar, conservative, racist effort.

Hate to tell you, the violent crime rates arent fiction. They are objective fact.
The rates of out of wedlock children arent fiction. Again objective fact.
The rates of incarceration arent fiction. Again objective fact.
Do you really think that the above have *zero* effect on the African American situation? Seriously?

Your response: its all a lie. None of that has *any* effect on the socio-economic plight of the African American community.
Its all racism. Systemic and pervasive racism, in fact.

Again, I wish there was a head slap emoji.....

Why not both?

You seem to want to jump up and down refuting the idea that systemic racism, or it seems racism in general, is a problem that still lingers and substantially impacts black Americans. But you continue to brush aside the quantifiable evidence that shows how our justice system treats people differently based on their race.

You do note that there are structural issues that negatively affect the black community. What if there are both issues rooted in systemic racism AND some structural issues the black community has that need to be addressed? And what if, here me out, some of those structural issues are exacerbated by systemic racism?

Take for example the nuclear family - if we know that black men are disproportionately incarcerated compared to white men, doesn't that logically mean that there are likely less fathers around to fill out a nuclear family and provide stability?

Drop in the bucket.

Much, maybe all, of what you call "quantifiable evidence" has alternate explanations that are not racism. You guys do not listen to those alternatives.

You cannot complain that all things are not equal and then treat the stats as if all things were equal.

I ask you to explain how disparities in say, getting pulled over, can be directly correlated to the other issues Tanq talks about.

Or let's look at marijuana busts, when there doesn't appear to be disproportionate use between races, yet arrests for pot are more >3 times greater for black Americans. In some states, there's almost an order of magnitude difference. What is the alternate explanation that doesn't involve race?

(06-09-2020 07:47 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-09-2020 07:03 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]Funny, that 'tenacious conservative strategy' is the one promulgated by the pastor of the black church that I do pro-bono for. Amazing the tentacles of that invidious, under the radar, conservative, racist effort.

Hate to tell you, the violent crime rates arent fiction. They are objective fact.
The rates of out of wedlock children arent fiction. Again objective fact.
The rates of incarceration arent fiction. Again objective fact.
Do you really think that the above have *zero* effect on the African American situation? Seriously?

Your response: its all a lie. None of that has *any* effect on the socio-economic plight of the African American community.
Its all racism. Systemic and pervasive racism, in fact.

Again, I wish there was a head slap emoji.....

Why not both?

You seem to want to jump up and down refuting the idea that systemic racism, or it seems racism in general, is a problem that still lingers and substantially impacts black Americans. But you continue to brush aside the quantifiable evidence that shows how our justice system treats people differently based on their race.

The 'end result' of a 'jaunt through the legal system" can be accorded a few outcomes -- jail, prison, diversion, probation, acquittal, or dropping of charges.

The best 'control' in results in 'how the justice system treats people' seems to be economic status -- not race.

That is --- poor white crackers are equivalent to poor black crackers; and equivalent to poor chicano crackers; and equivalent to poor yellow crackers.

Correspondingly, the legal 'results' for rich white crackers are equivalent to rich black crackers; and equivalent to rich chicano crackers; and equivalent to rich yellow crackers.

And, not surprisingly rich better than upper middle class; upper middle class better than lower middle class; lower middle class better than poor xx cracker. Across the board.

There is no effective difference between rich white cracker and rich black cracker in that roulette game.

If the thesis of 'blacks get the shaft relative to whites', the pervasive effects of the the supposed 'black discrimination' would be evident across socio-economic levels. They simply arent.

The biggest driver in the 'blacks get pegged with prison at a far greater rate than whites with the same crime' is underlied by the simple issue that the far greater number of blacks being paraded into the legal system are those whom are from the worst part of of the socio-economic system.

Quote:You do note that there are structural issues that negatively affect the black community. What if there are both issues rooted in systemic racism AND some structural issues the black community has that need to be addressed? And what if, here me out, some of those structural issues are exacerbated by systemic racism?

Look, I will go one further -- many of the socio-economic factors *are* have roots of some sort in historical vestiges of systemic racism.

If you want to tie in a vast cabal of current systemic racism --- then toss me the gist of it. 93's claptrap isnt such evidence of current systemic racism.

Quote:Take for example the nuclear family - if we know that black men are disproportionately incarcerated compared to white men, doesn't that logically mean that there are likely less fathers around to fill out a nuclear family and provide stability?

Perhaps you didnt note my comment that the cycle of violence, crime, incarceration, and the systemic and destructive creation of a norm of fatherless households is, in fact, a self-perpetuating cycle. It is, in mathematical terms, a non-degrading feedback cycle.

But your comment above takes the issue of 'black men being disproportionately incarcerated compared to white men' (which is very true) and inherently posits that that outcome is a product of 'systemic racism'. Kind of a large leap there. Especially with the issues on socio-economic status and its relationship to outcomes of incarceration noted above.

If you want to play the 'well blacks are disproportionately incarcerated compared to white men' card, then lets look at what they are put there for. They *dont* spend years at a time in the pen for 'smokin a doob.' They *are* disproportionately incarcerated for homicide, violent crime, and major drug offenses (i.e. dealing and intent to sell beefs, as opposed to user beefs). To a major extent.

For example, blacks account for a majority (or near majority) of all homicide and non-negligent manslaughter convictions, all the while making up about 12% of the population.

Same rough proportion for robbery . In total, blacks were convicted of close to 40% of those crimes delineated as 'violent'. In almost every category of crime, blacks batted well above their representation in the population in almost every major crime (excepting arson, interestingly). (source FBI cime statistics 2017, the most recent one I could dig up)

So yes --- blacks *are* disproportionately incarcerated. The disproportional incarceration in the 'big baddies' so to speak isnt based on racism. I think the Chicago gang banger episodes of the last number of months show that the commission of the 'big baddie' felonies isnt sparked by some inherently evil cabal of white crackers promoting systemic racism just because they can.

(06-09-2020 08:29 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]Or let's look at marijuana busts, when there doesn't appear to be disproportionate use between races, yet arrests for pot are more >3 times greater for black Americans. In some states, there's almost an order of magnitude difference. What is the alternate explanation that doesn't involve race?

As an immediate reaction, I would surmise the number of doob busts is a function of patrol density.

The logical driver of patrol density would probably be higher crime areas.

And I just noted the very high crime rates for major crimes by blacks. That translates to more crimes *in* black areas for the most part.

Aha, an alternate explanation that doesnt directly involve race. That is a no brainer.

Solution: perhaps the black community stop the major crimes that its people do.


And while that increased patrol does mean more 'police interaction' (by definition), I will state categorically that there is a disparity in the slack a cop will give a white as opposed to a black or a chicano. I have seen that side first hand. (I guess this will be the only time evah in our discourse that the left take a personal observation as proof positive of anything, but that is another discussion entirely....)

But, if it were actual white racism in effect and the driver of the issue of incarceration, one would expect the major crime rates by Hispanics to be equivalently boosted to the elevated levels of blacks by that same driver of 'systemic racism' as well. They simply arent. Not by a long shot.

(06-09-2020 08:29 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-09-2020 08:12 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-09-2020 07:47 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-09-2020 07:03 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]Funny, that 'tenacious conservative strategy' is the one promulgated by the pastor of the black church that I do pro-bono for. Amazing the tentacles of that invidious, under the radar, conservative, racist effort.

Hate to tell you, the violent crime rates arent fiction. They are objective fact.
The rates of out of wedlock children arent fiction. Again objective fact.
The rates of incarceration arent fiction. Again objective fact.
Do you really think that the above have *zero* effect on the African American situation? Seriously?

Your response: its all a lie. None of that has *any* effect on the socio-economic plight of the African American community.
Its all racism. Systemic and pervasive racism, in fact.

Again, I wish there was a head slap emoji.....

Why not both?

You seem to want to jump up and down refuting the idea that systemic racism, or it seems racism in general, is a problem that still lingers and substantially impacts black Americans. But you continue to brush aside the quantifiable evidence that shows how our justice system treats people differently based on their race.

You do note that there are structural issues that negatively affect the black community. What if there are both issues rooted in systemic racism AND some structural issues the black community has that need to be addressed? And what if, here me out, some of those structural issues are exacerbated by systemic racism?

Take for example the nuclear family - if we know that black men are disproportionately incarcerated compared to white men, doesn't that logically mean that there are likely less fathers around to fill out a nuclear family and provide stability?

Drop in the bucket.

Much, maybe all, of what you call "quantifiable evidence" has alternate explanations that are not racism. You guys do not listen to those alternatives.

You cannot complain that all things are not equal and then treat the stats as if all things were equal.

I ask you to explain how disparities in say, getting pulled over, can be directly correlated to the other issues Tanq talks about.

Or let's look at marijuana busts, when there doesn't appear to be disproportionate use between races, yet arrests for pot are more >3 times greater for black Americans. In some states, there's almost an order of magnitude difference. What is the alternate explanation that doesn't involve race?

So the riots and all the rest of the protests are now about the gross inequities of doobie busts?