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(01-29-2019 05:22 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-29-2019 03:53 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]Relating a snippet a Democratic friend quipped to me today at lunch relating to 'Ms Free Enterprise'.

Considering Kamala supports getting rid of the medical insurance industry, is an ardent supporter of the supposed Green New Deal, and made quite the name for herself as DA in San Francisco by prosecuting parents of truant schoolchildren for the child's truancy, the best phrase to capture her candidacy is:

"You Can’t Keep Your Plan, Your Car Is Banned, and If Your Kids Miss Class I’m Sending You to Jail."

Our group of 4 (2 libertarians, 2 (apparently non-Kamala) lefties at our table laughed, the other diehard liberals at the table (6) didnt. That made it doubly amusing for me.

You have lunch with 8 lefties? You must be starving to death after they take the food from your plate that they decide you don't need or deserve.

Then they stick you with the bill.

My fair share you mean.

After this time redistributing what I ordered, they say next time that they will just order for everyone. And again, stick me with the bill....
(01-29-2019 05:37 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-29-2019 05:22 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-29-2019 03:53 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]Relating a snippet a Democratic friend quipped to me today at lunch relating to 'Ms Free Enterprise'.

Considering Kamala supports getting rid of the medical insurance industry, is an ardent supporter of the supposed Green New Deal, and made quite the name for herself as DA in San Francisco by prosecuting parents of truant schoolchildren for the child's truancy, the best phrase to capture her candidacy is:

"You Can’t Keep Your Plan, Your Car Is Banned, and If Your Kids Miss Class I’m Sending You to Jail."

Our group of 4 (2 libertarians, 2 (apparently non-Kamala) lefties at our table laughed, the other diehard liberals at the table (6) didnt. That made it doubly amusing for me.

You have lunch with 8 lefties? You must be starving to death after they take the food from your plate that they decide you don't need or deserve.

Then they stick you with the bill.

My fair share you mean.

After this time redistributing what I ordered, they say next time that they will just order for everyone. And again, stick me with the bill....

And I bet the service was bad. Leftists seem to prefer restaurants with lousy service.
It was a luncheon. Speaker -- turned out to be sanctuary city type. But of course that doesnt mean he is an open borders dude. I dont know which I like least --- the truly gospel religious luncheon or the lefty open borders luncheon. Both are versions of preaching.

I have to say I shouldnt complain, I was the 'fill the seat since someone couldnt make it.'

But, come to think of it, it seems that the two libertarians were the freeloaders at the table. Heh!
(01-29-2019 06:22 PM)georgewebb Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-29-2019 05:37 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-29-2019 05:22 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-29-2019 03:53 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]Relating a snippet a Democratic friend quipped to me today at lunch relating to 'Ms Free Enterprise'.

Considering Kamala supports getting rid of the medical insurance industry, is an ardent supporter of the supposed Green New Deal, and made quite the name for herself as DA in San Francisco by prosecuting parents of truant schoolchildren for the child's truancy, the best phrase to capture her candidacy is:

"You Can’t Keep Your Plan, Your Car Is Banned, and If Your Kids Miss Class I’m Sending You to Jail."

Our group of 4 (2 libertarians, 2 (apparently non-Kamala) lefties at our table laughed, the other diehard liberals at the table (6) didnt. That made it doubly amusing for me.

You have lunch with 8 lefties? You must be starving to death after they take the food from your plate that they decide you don't need or deserve.

Then they stick you with the bill.

My fair share you mean.

After this time redistributing what I ordered, they say next time that they will just order for everyone. And again, stick me with the bill....

And I bet the service was bad. Leftists seem to prefer restaurants with lousy service.

Valhalla is really popular among the grad students. This idea checks out.
(01-29-2019 07:30 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-29-2019 06:22 PM)georgewebb Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-29-2019 05:37 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-29-2019 05:22 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-29-2019 03:53 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]Relating a snippet a Democratic friend quipped to me today at lunch relating to 'Ms Free Enterprise'.

Considering Kamala supports getting rid of the medical insurance industry, is an ardent supporter of the supposed Green New Deal, and made quite the name for herself as DA in San Francisco by prosecuting parents of truant schoolchildren for the child's truancy, the best phrase to capture her candidacy is:

"You Can’t Keep Your Plan, Your Car Is Banned, and If Your Kids Miss Class I’m Sending You to Jail."

Our group of 4 (2 libertarians, 2 (apparently non-Kamala) lefties at our table laughed, the other diehard liberals at the table (6) didnt. That made it doubly amusing for me.

You have lunch with 8 lefties? You must be starving to death after they take the food from your plate that they decide you don't need or deserve.

Then they stick you with the bill.

My fair share you mean.

After this time redistributing what I ordered, they say next time that they will just order for everyone. And again, stick me with the bill....

And I bet the service was bad. Leftists seem to prefer restaurants with lousy service.

Valhalla is really popular among the grad students. This idea checks out.

I’ve noticed! Then again, Kay’s Lounge had pretty bad service. And the Ginger Man does too. So who knows?
(01-29-2019 04:11 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]I'm admittedly ignorant of the details of a Medicare for All strategy, but what about that policy positions outlaws private insurance plans? Could someone not still pay for insurance that offers different coverage than a sweeping plan?

Thanks for the admission. With respect for your question, it depends on which model system you implement.

If true single-payer (very rare, only Canada among non-communist countries ever had it, and they are getting away from it), then no. Not only can you not have private insurance, but you also cannot pay out of pocket for health care. Single payer means only one entity--the government--can pay for health care (that's why they call it single-payer), and if the government won't pay for it, you can't have it. You pay a doc out of pocket for something the government won't provide, and get caught, he loses his medical license and you go to jail. What actually happens in these systems is you end up with a huge black market, and in recognition of that Canada has loosened the strings quite a bit in recent years (at least in some provinces--the systems are provincial, and the Canadian provinces have far more autonomy than US states).

Single provider (like UK NHS and much of Europe, and what I think most people mean when they say "single payer") means the government has an agency that provides health care directly, with docs paid a salary. In this system private docs are allowed (like Baker Street in UK), but private insurance to pay for visits to such docs may be strictly limited (I think this is the UK case) and extremely expensive, or outlawed altogether. Basically it becomes an out-of-pocket fee-for-service-on-demand system for those who can afford it, and a "free" take-a-number-and-wait-in-line service for those who can't. I have a number of Brit friends who cashed in their retirement or took out mortgages so grandma could get her surgery done privately instead of waiting in the queue. They also go overseas, with France or India being popular destinations, to get it done cheaper than Baker Street. Tony Blair once took flak for saying that they really didn't need to increase the NHS budget as long as they had France.

Wait times vary widely under both single-payer and single-provider because the supply is fixed by the annual budget, whereas the demand can vary up or down. If they over budgeted brain surgery and under budgeted heart surgery, then if you have a brain tumor you get treated straight away, but if you have a heart attack you may have to take a number and come back next year. The strong temptation is to save money by budgeting less that what the actuarial numbers say will be needed (it's called "supply side cost control" in the professional literature) and put people in the queue.

Bismarck (what France has, and what most of the best systems in Europe have) means that you have some kind of "free" system and universal government-funded private insurance (generally obtained through unions or other non-profits) to cover you in that system, and that typically covers somewhere around 70% of health care, but you also have a private "pay" system that operates alongside the "free" system, and you can readily purchase supplemental private insurance to cover use of the "pay" side. Last statistics I saw 99+++% of the French have the basic government-paid insurance (the only exceptions being people in transit in or out of the country) and 90% have supplemental insurance (usually paid by employers) to cover the other 30%. And because most needs are met on the "free" side, supplemental insurance tends to be dirt cheap. Basically, you use the "free" side when you can and go to the "pay" side when you don't want to wait in the queue. Other Bismarck systems vary in the details (as I understand it, Holland and Switzerland don't really have a "free" side, it's all for profit with government subsidized insurance, and in Germany all health insurance providers are run by the lander (states), and the unlike the Obamacare exchanges, the German exchanges were created as the place to buy insurance from an out-of-state provider).

So the answer to your question depend on what kind of system you have.

Single-payer - total government control, you can't have private insurance and you can't even pay out of pocket.
Single-provider - you can pay out of pocket, but you may or may not be able to get private insurance to cover it.
Bismarck - you can have private care and you can pay for it with private insurance, and private care is an intentional and integral part of the system, basically to control wait times.
I saw a clip of the Harris interview with Tapper, and when he asked if one could his insurance if he liked it, she had this "deer in the headlights" look. You could tell she never considered that anyone would want to keep private insurance over something free.

But proposing stuff that won't work is not a detriment to getting the Democratic nomination or Democrat's votes, and she is still black and female, so remains my pick in the race for the DNC's nomination.

I must say, if she sticks with this plan of abolishing insurance companies, she may have a tough go in the Iowa caucuses. Insurance is the top employer in the state, after farming. My son is one of the people she wants to put out of work.
(01-30-2019 11:39 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]I saw a clip of the Harris interview with Tapper, and when he asked if one could his insurance if he liked it, she had this "deer in the headlights" look. You could tell she never considered that anyone would want to keep private insurance over something free.
But proposing stuff that won't work is not a detriment to getting the Democratic nomination or Democrat's votes, and she is still black and female, so remains my pick in the race for the DNC's nomination.
I must say, if she sticks with this plan of abolishing insurance companies, she may have a tough go in the Iowa caucuses. Insurance is the top employer in the state, after farming. My son is one of the people she wants to put out of work.

Tapper has actually won some like (not love, but like) from me for confronting AOC and Kamala on their nonsensical proposals. I don't think he is moving to the right, probably just wanting to expose the democrat candidates early (recognizing that AOC is not a candidate this time around, but probably next time) so that they don't turn into George McGovern.
(01-30-2019 07:34 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-30-2019 11:39 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]I saw a clip of the Harris interview with Tapper, and when he asked if one could his insurance if he liked it, she had this "deer in the headlights" look. You could tell she never considered that anyone would want to keep private insurance over something free.
But proposing stuff that won't work is not a detriment to getting the Democratic nomination or Democrat's votes, and she is still black and female, so remains my pick in the race for the DNC's nomination.
I must say, if she sticks with this plan of abolishing insurance companies, she may have a tough go in the Iowa caucuses. Insurance is the top employer in the state, after farming. My son is one of the people she wants to put out of work.

Tapper has actually won some like (not love, but like) from me for confronting AOC and Kamala on their nonsensical proposals. I don't think he is moving to the right, probably just wanting to expose the democrat candidates early (recognizing that AOC is not a candidate this time around, but probably next time) so that they don't turn into George McGovern.

Tapper is a good journalist that asks tough questions of all of his guests.
(01-30-2019 11:39 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]But proposing stuff that won't work is not a detriment to getting the Democratic nomination or Democrat's votes, and she is still black and female, so remains my pick in the race for the DNC's nomination.

Expand this to include "Democrat or Republican" nomination or "Democrat or Republican" votes and we might finally (finally!) have something we can both agree on. Personally, I think presidential races have basically become an exercise in exploiting the average voter's complete unawareness of how our government works. Candidate A proposes the moon, conveniently leaving out that the legislative branch only wants the clouds, inevitably fails to get what he/she wants, then suffers the electoral consequences, whether in the mid-terms or the next presidential cycle. Then someone polls the voters and confirms that they blame it all on the president for failing to deliver on his unilateral promises, as though he's the only actor in town. Happens every time.
(01-30-2019 10:11 PM)OldOwlNewHeel2 Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-30-2019 11:39 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]But proposing stuff that won't work is not a detriment to getting the Democratic nomination or Democrat's votes, and she is still black and female, so remains my pick in the race for the DNC's nomination.

Expand this to include "Democrat or Republican" nomination or "Democrat or Republican" votes and we might finally (finally!) have something we can both agree on. Personally, I think presidential races have basically become an exercise in exploiting the average voter's complete unawareness of how our government works. Candidate A proposes the moon, conveniently leaving out that the legislative branch only wants the clouds, inevitably fails to get what he/she wants, then suffers the electoral consequences, whether in the mid-terms or the next presidential cycle. Then someone polls the voters and confirms that they blame it all on the president for failing to deliver on his unilateral promises, as though he's the only actor in town. Happens every time.

But funnily enough, every time it is a Democratic proposal it is 'it costs a trillion fing dollars and the evil people with money and actually paying taxes will pay for that largess.' You miss that salient point.
(01-30-2019 08:17 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-30-2019 07:34 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-30-2019 11:39 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]I saw a clip of the Harris interview with Tapper, and when he asked if one could his insurance if he liked it, she had this "deer in the headlights" look. You could tell she never considered that anyone would want to keep private insurance over something free.
But proposing stuff that won't work is not a detriment to getting the Democratic nomination or Democrat's votes, and she is still black and female, so remains my pick in the race for the DNC's nomination.
I must say, if she sticks with this plan of abolishing insurance companies, she may have a tough go in the Iowa caucuses. Insurance is the top employer in the state, after farming. My son is one of the people she wants to put out of work.

Tapper has actually won some like (not love, but like) from me for confronting AOC and Kamala on their nonsensical proposals. I don't think he is moving to the right, probably just wanting to expose the democrat candidates early (recognizing that AOC is not a candidate this time around, but probably next time) so that they don't turn into George McGovern.

Tapper is a good journalist that asks tough questions of all of his guests.

Tapper is one of the few in the MSM who does not let his personal biases get in the way of asking the tough questions of everybody.

Mostly.
(01-30-2019 10:32 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-30-2019 10:11 PM)OldOwlNewHeel2 Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-30-2019 11:39 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]But proposing stuff that won't work is not a detriment to getting the Democratic nomination or Democrat's votes, and she is still black and female, so remains my pick in the race for the DNC's nomination.

Expand this to include "Democrat or Republican" nomination or "Democrat or Republican" votes and we might finally (finally!) have something we can both agree on. Personally, I think presidential races have basically become an exercise in exploiting the average voter's complete unawareness of how our government works. Candidate A proposes the moon, conveniently leaving out that the legislative branch only wants the clouds, inevitably fails to get what he/she wants, then suffers the electoral consequences, whether in the mid-terms or the next presidential cycle. Then someone polls the voters and confirms that they blame it all on the president for failing to deliver on his unilateral promises, as though he's the only actor in town. Happens every time.

But funnily enough, every time it is a Democratic proposal it is 'it costs a trillion fing dollars and the evil people with money and actually paying taxes will pay for that largess.' You miss that salient point.

And where do Republicans propose the fund for their expensive proposals will come from?

At least Dems are straight forward about needing to raise taxes to fund programs, instead of hoping and praying that policy magically pays for itself...
(01-30-2019 11:37 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-30-2019 10:32 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-30-2019 10:11 PM)OldOwlNewHeel2 Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-30-2019 11:39 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]But proposing stuff that won't work is not a detriment to getting the Democratic nomination or Democrat's votes, and she is still black and female, so remains my pick in the race for the DNC's nomination.

Expand this to include "Democrat or Republican" nomination or "Democrat or Republican" votes and we might finally (finally!) have something we can both agree on. Personally, I think presidential races have basically become an exercise in exploiting the average voter's complete unawareness of how our government works. Candidate A proposes the moon, conveniently leaving out that the legislative branch only wants the clouds, inevitably fails to get what he/she wants, then suffers the electoral consequences, whether in the mid-terms or the next presidential cycle. Then someone polls the voters and confirms that they blame it all on the president for failing to deliver on his unilateral promises, as though he's the only actor in town. Happens every time.

But funnily enough, every time it is a Democratic proposal it is 'it costs a trillion fing dollars and the evil people with money and actually paying taxes will pay for that largess.' You miss that salient point.

And where do Republicans propose the fund for their expensive proposals will come from?

At least Dems are straight forward about needing to raise taxes to fund programs, instead of hoping and praying that policy magically pays for itself...

What are the Republican expensive proposals? Funding defense? Name one as expensive as Obamacare or medicare for all.

But the Dems are not straightforward and honest about whose taxes will be raised. It is always that the rich will pay, but in practice, it usually turns out that anybody who pays any taxes pays more taxes. Everybody who is not poor is rich.

We just do not have enough stupid rich people to pay for it all.

Most Republican proposals promise the funds will come from savings in other areas.
(01-30-2019 11:37 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-30-2019 10:32 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-30-2019 10:11 PM)OldOwlNewHeel2 Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-30-2019 11:39 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]But proposing stuff that won't work is not a detriment to getting the Democratic nomination or Democrat's votes, and she is still black and female, so remains my pick in the race for the DNC's nomination.

Expand this to include "Democrat or Republican" nomination or "Democrat or Republican" votes and we might finally (finally!) have something we can both agree on. Personally, I think presidential races have basically become an exercise in exploiting the average voter's complete unawareness of how our government works. Candidate A proposes the moon, conveniently leaving out that the legislative branch only wants the clouds, inevitably fails to get what he/she wants, then suffers the electoral consequences, whether in the mid-terms or the next presidential cycle. Then someone polls the voters and confirms that they blame it all on the president for failing to deliver on his unilateral promises, as though he's the only actor in town. Happens every time.

But funnily enough, every time it is a Democratic proposal it is 'it costs a trillion fing dollars and the evil people with money and actually paying taxes will pay for that largess.' You miss that salient point.

And where do Republicans propose the fund for their expensive proposals will come from?

At least Dems are straight forward about needing to raise taxes to fund programs, instead of hoping and praying that policy magically pays for itself...

You forget that for Dems, raising taxes is an end in itself. Even if the money collected were simply shredded and burned in a Federal incinerator, Democrats would still be positively gleeful about having taken it from someone.

And it’s not just the taking they delight in; it’s also the snooping and controlling and prosecuting that the taking necessitates.
(01-30-2019 11:37 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-30-2019 10:32 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-30-2019 10:11 PM)OldOwlNewHeel2 Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-30-2019 11:39 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]But proposing stuff that won't work is not a detriment to getting the Democratic nomination or Democrat's votes, and she is still black and female, so remains my pick in the race for the DNC's nomination.
Expand this to include "Democrat or Republican" nomination or "Democrat or Republican" votes and we might finally (finally!) have something we can both agree on. Personally, I think presidential races have basically become an exercise in exploiting the average voter's complete unawareness of how our government works. Candidate A proposes the moon, conveniently leaving out that the legislative branch only wants the clouds, inevitably fails to get what he/she wants, then suffers the electoral consequences, whether in the mid-terms or the next presidential cycle. Then someone polls the voters and confirms that they blame it all on the president for failing to deliver on his unilateral promises, as though he's the only actor in town. Happens every time.
But funnily enough, every time it is a Democratic proposal it is 'it costs a trillion fing dollars and the evil people with money and actually paying taxes will pay for that largess.' You miss that salient point.
And where do Republicans propose the fund for their expensive proposals will come from?

What expensive republican proposals? Name a few.

Quote:At least Dems are straight forward about needing to raise taxes to fund programs, instead of hoping and praying that policy magically pays for itself...

Not exactly. When AOC proposes additional spending that will amount to $40 trillion over 10 years and purposes to pay for it with taxes on the "rich" and corporations that will raise a grand total of $2 trillion over that same time, apparently hoping and praying that the other $38 trillion will somehow magically appear, there is absolutely nothing straightforward or honest about that. Same for the proposals put forth by Bernie the socialist and Kamala the kommie. They would do nothing but ruin us out of other people's money a whole lot faster.

Both parties need math lessons. We need desperately to get out of our current deficit and debt mess. The only viable way to do that is a consumption tax. We can't increase income taxes enough to pay for what we are doing now, let alone anything more, without making them so confiscatory as to drive all economic growth offshore. A 15% consumption tax, across the board, would raise enough tax revenues to let us 1) do Bismarck universal private health care, 2) replace the current welfare hodge-podge of focused and "means tested" programs, with their huge administrative overheads, with a universal basic income following Milton Friedman's negative income tax or the Boortz-Linder prebate/prefund, 3) let the states pick up any of the current welfare programs they wanted too, with the money they would save because Bismarck makes Medicaid redundant, 4) balance the budget, and 5) broaden and flatten and lower both individual and corporate income taxes to levels competitive with the most tax-efficient systems in Europe. Then sit back and watch the economy go through the roof.
(01-31-2019 01:08 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]]

Not exactly. When AOC proposes additional spending that will amount to $40 trillion over 10 years and purposes to pay for it with taxes on the "rich" and corporatoons that will raise a grand total of $2 trillion over that same time, apparently hoping and praying that the other $38 trillion will somehow magically appear, there is absolutely nothing straightforward or honest about that.

Good example. How many Democrats think that free college, free immigration, free healthcare will actually be free? Most of them, I would say.

of course there is the savings from abolishing ICE to consider. Sending ten of thousands into the unemployment line will save a bundle.
(01-31-2019 10:59 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-31-2019 01:08 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]]

Not exactly. When AOC proposes additional spending that will amount to $40 trillion over 10 years and purposes to pay for it with taxes on the "rich" and corporatoons that will raise a grand total of $2 trillion over that same time, apparently hoping and praying that the other $38 trillion will somehow magically appear, there is absolutely nothing straightforward or honest about that.

Good example. How many Democrats think that free college, free immigration, free healthcare will actually be free? Most of them, I would say.

Didn't AOC explain that if it's free, then by definition it doesn't cost anything?
Im still apprehensive to see this list of expensive Republican proposals and items.
(01-31-2019 03:32 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]Im still apprehensive to see this list of expensive Republican proposals and items.
yeah, that is worrisome.
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