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(01-18-2019 04:41 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 09:36 AM)georgewebb Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 08:47 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]Even though the witch hunt has been a failure in uncovering witches (collusion with Russia to steal an election), it has been magnificent in creating them(lying to the FBI, lying to Congress).

A quarter century ago, when Bill Clinton committed perjury during the Lewinsky investigation, Democrats and their allies were vociferous in proclaiming that mere lying should not be held against him -- that the real blame for his perjury lay with the investigators (presumably for giving Clinton the opportunity to lie under oath), rather than with the liar.

Or as Homer Simpson once explained: "Marge, it takes two to lie: one to lie, and one to listen."

Clinton's perjury wasnt all the result of the investigation. It was established that not only did he perjure himself to the grand jury in the investigation, but perjured himself during the deposition to a sexual assault-based civil lawsuit.

Yeah, that's where it got serious. I didn't really care about his sex life or his lying to the american people on TV, but when the man who is supposed to protect American's rights lied to defraud an American(Paula Jones) of her rights, I switched in a hurry.

Talk about corrupt and dishonest.

But he has a nice smile.
(01-18-2019 04:41 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 09:36 AM)georgewebb Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 08:47 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]Even though the witch hunt has been a failure in uncovering witches (collusion with Russia to steal an election), it has been magnificent in creating them(lying to the FBI, lying to Congress).

A quarter century ago, when Bill Clinton committed perjury during the Lewinsky investigation, Democrats and their allies were vociferous in proclaiming that mere lying should not be held against him -- that the real blame for his perjury lay with the investigators (presumably for giving Clinton the opportunity to lie under oath), rather than with the liar.

Or as Homer Simpson once explained: "Marge, it takes two to lie: one to lie, and one to listen."

Clinton's perjury wasnt all the result of the investigation. It was established that not only did he perjure himself to the grand jury in the investigation, but perjured himself during the deposition to a sexual assault-based civil lawsuit.

I am unclear why this is relevant. A screwup back then doesn't make a screwup now acceptable or palatable. Similarly, can you imagine if Iran-Contra happened now? Just because the people then skated on barely any charges, doesn't mean if it happened now it should as well.

Pointing at the other side to justify malfeasance is detrimental to the country, IMO.
(01-18-2019 06:09 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 04:41 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 09:36 AM)georgewebb Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 08:47 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]Even though the witch hunt has been a failure in uncovering witches (collusion with Russia to steal an election), it has been magnificent in creating them(lying to the FBI, lying to Congress).

A quarter century ago, when Bill Clinton committed perjury during the Lewinsky investigation, Democrats and their allies were vociferous in proclaiming that mere lying should not be held against him -- that the real blame for his perjury lay with the investigators (presumably for giving Clinton the opportunity to lie under oath), rather than with the liar.

Or as Homer Simpson once explained: "Marge, it takes two to lie: one to lie, and one to listen."

Clinton's perjury wasnt all the result of the investigation. It was established that not only did he perjure himself to the grand jury in the investigation, but perjured himself during the deposition to a sexual assault-based civil lawsuit.

Yeah, that's where it got serious. I didn't really care about his sex life or his lying to the american people on TV, but when the man who is supposed to protect American's rights lied to defraud an American(Paula Jones) of her rights, I switched in a hurry.

Talk about corrupt and dishonest.

But he has a nice smile.

So if it turns out to be true that the current president pressured someone to commit perjury to defraud the American people knowledge about his connections to a foreign country...
(01-18-2019 06:09 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 04:41 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 09:36 AM)georgewebb Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 08:47 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]Even though the witch hunt has been a failure in uncovering witches (collusion with Russia to steal an election), it has been magnificent in creating them(lying to the FBI, lying to Congress).
A quarter century ago, when Bill Clinton committed perjury during the Lewinsky investigation, Democrats and their allies were vociferous in proclaiming that mere lying should not be held against him -- that the real blame for his perjury lay with the investigators (presumably for giving Clinton the opportunity to lie under oath), rather than with the liar.
Or as Homer Simpson once explained: "Marge, it takes two to lie: one to lie, and one to listen."
Clinton's perjury wasnt all the result of the investigation. It was established that not only did he perjure himself to the grand jury in the investigation, but perjured himself during the deposition to a sexual assault-based civil lawsuit.
Yeah, that's where it got serious. I didn't really care about his sex life or his lying to the american people on TV, but when the man who is supposed to protect American's rights lied to defraud an American(Paula Jones) of her rights, I switched in a hurry.
Talk about corrupt and dishonest.
But he has a nice smile.

I think what Bill Clinton did is despicable. But I would not have voted to impeach had a been a member of the house of representatives, nor would I have voted to convict and remove had I been a member of the senate. There was no way I was ever going to vote to make Al Gore president.
(01-18-2019 06:44 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 06:09 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 04:41 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 09:36 AM)georgewebb Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 08:47 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]Even though the witch hunt has been a failure in uncovering witches (collusion with Russia to steal an election), it has been magnificent in creating them(lying to the FBI, lying to Congress).

A quarter century ago, when Bill Clinton committed perjury during the Lewinsky investigation, Democrats and their allies were vociferous in proclaiming that mere lying should not be held against him -- that the real blame for his perjury lay with the investigators (presumably for giving Clinton the opportunity to lie under oath), rather than with the liar.

Or as Homer Simpson once explained: "Marge, it takes two to lie: one to lie, and one to listen."

Clinton's perjury wasnt all the result of the investigation. It was established that not only did he perjure himself to the grand jury in the investigation, but perjured himself during the deposition to a sexual assault-based civil lawsuit.

Yeah, that's where it got serious. I didn't really care about his sex life or his lying to the american people on TV, but when the man who is supposed to protect American's rights lied to defraud an American(Paula Jones) of her rights, I switched in a hurry.

Talk about corrupt and dishonest.

But he has a nice smile.

So if it turns out to be true that the current president pressured someone to commit perjury to defraud the American people knowledge about his connections to a foreign country...

If true

"BuzzFeed's description of specific statements to the Special Counsel's Office, and characterization of documents and testimony obtained by this office, regarding Michael Cohen's Congressional testimony are not accurate." -Mueller's office

Interesting that they speak on this, when they have been so silent previously.

You can tell that you are listening to fake news when all the breathless commentary on CNN and MSNBC is prefaced by "If True".

President Clinton's perjury specifically hurt Paula Jones, who had filed a lawsuit. If true, who is the person(s) hurt materially by this alleged perjury? Did Pel;osi lose a bet because of it?
(01-18-2019 08:14 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 06:09 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 04:41 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 09:36 AM)georgewebb Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 08:47 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]Even though the witch hunt has been a failure in uncovering witches (collusion with Russia to steal an election), it has been magnificent in creating them(lying to the FBI, lying to Congress).
A quarter century ago, when Bill Clinton committed perjury during the Lewinsky investigation, Democrats and their allies were vociferous in proclaiming that mere lying should not be held against him -- that the real blame for his perjury lay with the investigators (presumably for giving Clinton the opportunity to lie under oath), rather than with the liar.
Or as Homer Simpson once explained: "Marge, it takes two to lie: one to lie, and one to listen."
Clinton's perjury wasnt all the result of the investigation. It was established that not only did he perjure himself to the grand jury in the investigation, but perjured himself during the deposition to a sexual assault-based civil lawsuit.
Yeah, that's where it got serious. I didn't really care about his sex life or his lying to the american people on TV, but when the man who is supposed to protect American's rights lied to defraud an American(Paula Jones) of her rights, I switched in a hurry.
Talk about corrupt and dishonest.
But he has a nice smile.

I think what Bill Clinton did is despicable. But I would not have voted to impeach had a been a member of the house of representatives, nor would I have voted to convict and remove had I been a member of the senate. There was no way I was ever going to vote to make Al Gore president.


So, in a nutshell, you are saying that you would let your personal biases and grudges impact your decision making on something as crucial as upholding the law.

I'm not sure how to respond to this. Seriously.
(01-18-2019 10:14 PM)Antarius Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 08:14 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 06:09 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 04:41 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 09:36 AM)georgewebb Wrote: [ -> ]A quarter century ago, when Bill Clinton committed perjury during the Lewinsky investigation, Democrats and their allies were vociferous in proclaiming that mere lying should not be held against him -- that the real blame for his perjury lay with the investigators (presumably for giving Clinton the opportunity to lie under oath), rather than with the liar.
Or as Homer Simpson once explained: "Marge, it takes two to lie: one to lie, and one to listen."
Clinton's perjury wasnt all the result of the investigation. It was established that not only did he perjure himself to the grand jury in the investigation, but perjured himself during the deposition to a sexual assault-based civil lawsuit.
Yeah, that's where it got serious. I didn't really care about his sex life or his lying to the american people on TV, but when the man who is supposed to protect American's rights lied to defraud an American(Paula Jones) of her rights, I switched in a hurry.
Talk about corrupt and dishonest.
But he has a nice smile.
I think what Bill Clinton did is despicable. But I would not have voted to impeach had a been a member of the house of representatives, nor would I have voted to convict and remove had I been a member of the senate. There was no way I was ever going to vote to make Al Gore president.
So, in a nutshell, you are saying that you would let your personal biases and grudges impact your decision making on something as crucial as upholding the law.
I'm not sure how to respond to this. Seriously.

I don't think it's humanly possible to do otherwise. We do our best, but to argue that anyone can be completely free of biases is IMO ludicrous.

We see it in jury selection every day. There are prospective jurors whose personal biases would affect their judgement, and they are encouraged to speak out during voir dire, so they can be struck from the jury.. I would probably not be a good trier of fact in the impeachment of Bill Clinton, because I know my biases. There is simply no way I could ever vote to make Al Gore dogcatcher, much less president of the USA. Let's just say I know too much about him and his family.
Plus there is no way to strike biased Senators.
(01-18-2019 06:44 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 06:09 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 04:41 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 09:36 AM)georgewebb Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 08:47 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]Even though the witch hunt has been a failure in uncovering witches (collusion with Russia to steal an election), it has been magnificent in creating them(lying to the FBI, lying to Congress).

A quarter century ago, when Bill Clinton committed perjury during the Lewinsky investigation, Democrats and their allies were vociferous in proclaiming that mere lying should not be held against him -- that the real blame for his perjury lay with the investigators (presumably for giving Clinton the opportunity to lie under oath), rather than with the liar.

Or as Homer Simpson once explained: "Marge, it takes two to lie: one to lie, and one to listen."

Clinton's perjury wasnt all the result of the investigation. It was established that not only did he perjure himself to the grand jury in the investigation, but perjured himself during the deposition to a sexual assault-based civil lawsuit.

Yeah, that's where it got serious. I didn't really care about his sex life or his lying to the american people on TV, but when the man who is supposed to protect American's rights lied to defraud an American(Paula Jones) of her rights, I switched in a hurry.

Talk about corrupt and dishonest.

But he has a nice smile.

So if it turns out to be true that the current president pressured someone to commit perjury to defraud the American people knowledge about his connections to a foreign country...

Put the party on hold, lad.
(01-18-2019 06:44 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 06:09 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 04:41 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 09:36 AM)georgewebb Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 08:47 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]Even though the witch hunt has been a failure in uncovering witches (collusion with Russia to steal an election), it has been magnificent in creating them(lying to the FBI, lying to Congress).

A quarter century ago, when Bill Clinton committed perjury during the Lewinsky investigation, Democrats and their allies were vociferous in proclaiming that mere lying should not be held against him -- that the real blame for his perjury lay with the investigators (presumably for giving Clinton the opportunity to lie under oath), rather than with the liar.

Or as Homer Simpson once explained: "Marge, it takes two to lie: one to lie, and one to listen."

Clinton's perjury wasnt all the result of the investigation. It was established that not only did he perjure himself to the grand jury in the investigation, but perjured himself during the deposition to a sexual assault-based civil lawsuit.

Yeah, that's where it got serious. I didn't really care about his sex life or his lying to the american people on TV, but when the man who is supposed to protect American's rights lied to defraud an American(Paula Jones) of her rights, I switched in a hurry.

Talk about corrupt and dishonest.

But he has a nice smile.

So if it turns out to be true that the current president pressured someone to commit perjury to defraud the American people knowledge about his connections to a foreign country...

Put the party on hold, lad.
(01-19-2019 10:09 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 06:44 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 06:09 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 04:41 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 09:36 AM)georgewebb Wrote: [ -> ]A quarter century ago, when Bill Clinton committed perjury during the Lewinsky investigation, Democrats and their allies were vociferous in proclaiming that mere lying should not be held against him -- that the real blame for his perjury lay with the investigators (presumably for giving Clinton the opportunity to lie under oath), rather than with the liar.

Or as Homer Simpson once explained: "Marge, it takes two to lie: one to lie, and one to listen."

Clinton's perjury wasnt all the result of the investigation. It was established that not only did he perjure himself to the grand jury in the investigation, but perjured himself during the deposition to a sexual assault-based civil lawsuit.

Yeah, that's where it got serious. I didn't really care about his sex life or his lying to the american people on TV, but when the man who is supposed to protect American's rights lied to defraud an American(Paula Jones) of her rights, I switched in a hurry.

Talk about corrupt and dishonest.

But he has a nice smile.

So if it turns out to be true that the current president pressured someone to commit perjury to defraud the American people knowledge about his connections to a foreign country...

Put the party on hold, lad.

Hence the IF...
(01-19-2019 10:21 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-19-2019 10:09 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 06:44 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 06:09 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 04:41 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]Clinton's perjury wasnt all the result of the investigation. It was established that not only did he perjure himself to the grand jury in the investigation, but perjured himself during the deposition to a sexual assault-based civil lawsuit.

Yeah, that's where it got serious. I didn't really care about his sex life or his lying to the american people on TV, but when the man who is supposed to protect American's rights lied to defraud an American(Paula Jones) of her rights, I switched in a hurry.

Talk about corrupt and dishonest.

But he has a nice smile.

So if it turns out to be true that the current president pressured someone to commit perjury to defraud the American people knowledge about his connections to a foreign country...

Put the party on hold, lad.

Hence the IF...

One of my pet peeves with the CNN/MSNBC crowd is that that bury an IF at the beginning and then discuss for half an hour as though it was a proven fact. Easy to fool people that way.

Example:

I have heard that RiceLad cannot supply a good reason of why he was in a convenience store 5 minutes before it was robbed. Milk? Suuuuure. Some say maybe he was involved. We cannot rule it out. IF true...

Then 30 minutes of how to handle it. A half hour of what should be done about Lad. The known robber and liar.

End example.

Another example:

Wolf Blitzer:

Tom, what do you think should be done about a president who asked a man to commit perjury? (If true was 10 minutes ago)

End another example.

IF TRUE is just a CYA for the antiTrump rhetoric.

Like I said, next time you hear a half hour of commentary prefaced by IF TRUE, think fake news. You will be right more often than not.
(01-19-2019 10:21 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-19-2019 10:09 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 06:44 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 06:09 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 04:41 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]Clinton's perjury wasnt all the result of the investigation. It was established that not only did he perjure himself to the grand jury in the investigation, but perjured himself during the deposition to a sexual assault-based civil lawsuit.
Yeah, that's where it got serious. I didn't really care about his sex life or his lying to the american people on TV, but when the man who is supposed to protect American's rights lied to defraud an American(Paula Jones) of her rights, I switched in a hurry.
Talk about corrupt and dishonest.
But he has a nice smile.
So if it turns out to be true that the current president pressured someone to commit perjury to defraud the American people knowledge about his connections to a foreign country...
Put the party on hold, lad.
Hence the IF...

So looking at that if, what if it turns out to be false? And by the way, that is looking ever more like the case.
(01-18-2019 06:10 PM)Antarius Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 04:41 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 09:36 AM)georgewebb Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 08:47 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]Even though the witch hunt has been a failure in uncovering witches (collusion with Russia to steal an election), it has been magnificent in creating them(lying to the FBI, lying to Congress).

A quarter century ago, when Bill Clinton committed perjury during the Lewinsky investigation, Democrats and their allies were vociferous in proclaiming that mere lying should not be held against him -- that the real blame for his perjury lay with the investigators (presumably for giving Clinton the opportunity to lie under oath), rather than with the liar.

Or as Homer Simpson once explained: "Marge, it takes two to lie: one to lie, and one to listen."

Clinton's perjury wasnt all the result of the investigation. It was established that not only did he perjure himself to the grand jury in the investigation, but perjured himself during the deposition to a sexual assault-based civil lawsuit.

I am unclear why this is relevant. A screwup back then doesn't make a screwup now acceptable or palatable. Similarly, can you imagine if Iran-Contra happened now? Just because the people then skated on barely any charges, doesn't mean if it happened now it should as well.

First, when you consider the Hillary server crap --- yes they *do* skate now.

Second, my response was to the post I quoted that said 'when Bill Clinton committed perjury during the Lewinsky investigation'; just noting that Bill Clinton committed perjury not just *during* the investigation, but the predicate crime of the investigation was Bill Clintons *previous* perjury, suborning perjury, *and* obstruction during a civil suit.

It isnt that 'perjury' dropped out of the air because of the Starr investigation. Further perjury, subornation, and obstruction occurred *during* the investigation *into previous* perjury, subornation, and obstruction matters. Here we have an investigation that fing morphs every other day into somefink or another.
(01-18-2019 06:44 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 06:09 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 04:41 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 09:36 AM)georgewebb Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-18-2019 08:47 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]Even though the witch hunt has been a failure in uncovering witches (collusion with Russia to steal an election), it has been magnificent in creating them(lying to the FBI, lying to Congress).

A quarter century ago, when Bill Clinton committed perjury during the Lewinsky investigation, Democrats and their allies were vociferous in proclaiming that mere lying should not be held against him -- that the real blame for his perjury lay with the investigators (presumably for giving Clinton the opportunity to lie under oath), rather than with the liar.

Or as Homer Simpson once explained: "Marge, it takes two to lie: one to lie, and one to listen."

Clinton's perjury wasnt all the result of the investigation. It was established that not only did he perjure himself to the grand jury in the investigation, but perjured himself during the deposition to a sexual assault-based civil lawsuit.

Yeah, that's where it got serious. I didn't really care about his sex life or his lying to the american people on TV, but when the man who is supposed to protect American's rights lied to defraud an American(Paula Jones) of her rights, I switched in a hurry.

Talk about corrupt and dishonest.

But he has a nice smile.

So if it turns out to be true that the current president pressured someone to commit perjury to defraud the American people knowledge about his connections to a foreign country...

As opposed to the breathless reporting on the Buzzfeed story you regaled with:

Per the Mueller spokesperson:
Quote:"BuzzFeed's description of specific statements to the Special Counsel's Office, and characterization of documents and testimony obtained by this office, regarding Michael Cohen's Congressional testimony are not accurate,"
--- Peter Carr, a spokesman for Mueller's office, in a statement.

How many times have I *ever* seen a spokesman for Special Counsel nuke a 'news story'? Hmmmm......

I guess it is more 'Buzzkill' than 'Buzzfeed'.

But, with this statement, at least I dont have to preface it with "If" that the Special Counsel Office pretty much just explicitly nuked the issue.
(01-18-2019 11:10 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]Plus there is no way to strike biased Senators.

I know. If I had been either a representative or a senator back then, I would have made full disclosure and past that been ready to let the chips fall wherever they may.
(01-18-2019 11:10 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]Plus there is no way to strike biased Senators.

I would have voted to censure him, and I’m glad he got his law license pulled. I would have voted for any punishment short of impeachment and removal. But making Al Gore President, no thanks.
Not saying I'm that surprised, but I can barely believe Wilbur Ross defended the current government shutdown with this logic:

Quote:Hypothetically if the workers never got their back pay, "you're talking about a third of a percent on our GDP. so it's not like it's a gigantic number overall."

A lot of empathy being shown right there.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/24/commerce...-loan.html
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