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(04-17-2018 11:12 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-17-2018 09:29 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]Because he is involved with journalism in one way or another, through his association with Fox, he should have an ethical obligation to inform his viewers of his relationship with Cohen

I guess I missed George Stephanpoulous' strenuous efforts on the same, "/b/ecause he is involved with journalism in one way or another, through his association with Fox ABC, he should have an ethical obligation to inform his viewers of his relationship with Cohen the Clinton clownshow, especially when he interviews Comey on the subject of the Clinton investigation" Funny that.

I cant wait for the moral outrage on that.

Um, it's public record? And any of us born before 1980 probably remember George S. from back then anyway. (At least they don't do fluff pieces on how dreamy he is any more!) He's had a decade or two for people to decide on his level of objectivity.

Hannity was concealing something directly related to stories he was commenting on; there's really no ambiguity that he should have disclosed it from a journalism perspective. I can't believe that's even being debated.

Having said that, is it shocking or "news" that Hannity is not an objective journalist? Nope. But when he was ranting and raving about the raids on Cohen's office, I don't think anyone thought he was the secret "third client"...
"Gorgeous George"

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1992/...ous-george

Are they talking about Curious, Webb, or Steph? You decide.
(04-18-2018 10:13 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-17-2018 11:12 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-17-2018 09:29 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]Because he is involved with journalism in one way or another, through his association with Fox, he should have an ethical obligation to inform his viewers of his relationship with Cohen

I guess I missed George Stephanpoulous' strenuous efforts on the same, "/b/ecause he is involved with journalism in one way or another, through his association with Fox ABC, he should have an ethical obligation to inform his viewers of his relationship with Cohen the Clinton clownshow, especially when he interviews Comey on the subject of the Clinton investigation" Funny that.

I cant wait for the moral outrage on that.

Um, it's public record? And any of us born before 1980 probably remember George S. from back then anyway. (At least they don't do fluff pieces on how dreamy he is any more!) He's had a decade or two for people to decide on his level of objectivity.

Hannity was concealing something directly related to stories he was commenting on; there's really no ambiguity that he should have disclosed it from a journalism perspective. I can't believe that's even being debated.

Having said that, is it shocking or "news" that Hannity is not an objective journalist? Nope. But when he was ranting and raving about the raids on Cohen's office, I don't think anyone thought he was the secret "third client"...

Generally speaking, I like George better than many of the others in the Democratic media. I watch his show every Sunday and much prefer when he is on, as opposed to his guest hosts like Martha Raddatz.

But the parallel here is obvious. If Hannity should disclose his "relationship" to Cohen, then George should disclose his "relationship" with Hillary. Doesn't really matter how old it is. Some of the more liberal people on their panel are presented as conservatives because they worked for a Republican two decades a go.

My personal opinion: Hannity is not a "journalist". he does not try to represent that he is reporting the news. He is commenting on it and giving his opinion. Just being on TV does not make one a journalist.

George does represent his show as presenting the news. He tries, sometimes successfully, not to interject his personal opinions. Because he tries, unlike Wolf or Mika, is one of the reasons I respect him. sometimes he will ask tough questions of democrats and not accept the deflective answer.

Both should have disclosed their ties. But I am one who thinks "Journalistic ethics" is an oxymoron.
(04-18-2018 10:13 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-17-2018 11:12 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-17-2018 09:29 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]Because he is involved with journalism in one way or another, through his association with Fox, he should have an ethical obligation to inform his viewers of his relationship with Cohen

I guess I missed George Stephanpoulous' strenuous efforts on the same, "/b/ecause he is involved with journalism in one way or another, through his association with Fox ABC, he should have an ethical obligation to inform his viewers of his relationship with Cohen the Clinton clownshow, especially when he interviews Comey on the subject of the Clinton investigation" Funny that.

I cant wait for the moral outrage on that.

Um, it's public record? And any of us born before 1980 probably remember George S. from back then anyway. (At least they don't do fluff pieces on how dreamy he is any more!) He's had a decade or two for people to decide on his level of objectivity.

Hannity was concealing something directly related to stories he was commenting on; there's really no ambiguity that he should have disclosed it from a journalism perspective. I can't believe that's even being debated.

Having said that, is it shocking or "news" that Hannity is not an objective journalist? Nope. But when he was ranting and raving about the raids on Cohen's office, I don't think anyone thought he was the secret "third client"...

So let me get this straight:

an objective reporter with a long history with person A gets a free pass with respect to anything dealing with person A at least in part b/c they are an 'objective' journalist;

a biased commentator, who wears his views on his sleeve and has a medium depth, shortish history with Person B *must* 'disclose' all with respect to person B.

I find it interesting that you give lighter scrutiny to the 'objective reporter' based in part because they are 'objective' as opposed to a clearly biased commentator.

And you neglected to note that short george has more than a passing relationship in the Clinton entourage. He was as deeply embedded in it as you can get for at least a decade; and has not shunned them in the slightest since then.

But, interestingly, George is judged lighter than the other.

I especially find it odd that you use the goal (being an objective reporter) as part of the judgment calculus for ethics issues. Seems like a faulty recursive type of definition in scope.

I agree with OO above that George does an exemplary job in *trying* to shield his biases. But, it is interesting that the view on who should disclose and why is is becoming a very subjective viewpoint (with one of the judgement criteria being whether one is 'objective' -- which I would say is again just another 'subjective' criteria.) (Words, have to love when the decision of whom is an 'objective' reporter is actually very 'subjective' in practice...)
(04-18-2018 01:36 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-18-2018 10:13 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-17-2018 11:12 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-17-2018 09:29 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]Because he is involved with journalism in one way or another, through his association with Fox, he should have an ethical obligation to inform his viewers of his relationship with Cohen

I guess I missed George Stephanpoulous' strenuous efforts on the same, "/b/ecause he is involved with journalism in one way or another, through his association with Fox ABC, he should have an ethical obligation to inform his viewers of his relationship with Cohen the Clinton clownshow, especially when he interviews Comey on the subject of the Clinton investigation" Funny that.

I cant wait for the moral outrage on that.

Um, it's public record? And any of us born before 1980 probably remember George S. from back then anyway. (At least they don't do fluff pieces on how dreamy he is any more!) He's had a decade or two for people to decide on his level of objectivity.

Hannity was concealing something directly related to stories he was commenting on; there's really no ambiguity that he should have disclosed it from a journalism perspective. I can't believe that's even being debated.

Having said that, is it shocking or "news" that Hannity is not an objective journalist? Nope. But when he was ranting and raving about the raids on Cohen's office, I don't think anyone thought he was the secret "third client"...

So let me get this straight:

an objective reporter with a long history with person A gets a free pass with respect to anything dealing with person A at least in part b/c they are an 'objective' journalist;

a biased commentator, who wears his views on his sleeve and has a medium depth, shortish history with Person B *must* 'disclose' all with respect to person B.

I find it interesting that you give lighter scrutiny to the 'objective reporter' based in part because they are 'objective' as opposed to a clearly biased commentator.

And you neglected to note that short george has more than a passing relationship in the Clinton entourage. He was as deeply embedded in it as you can get for at least a decade; and has not shunned them in the slightest since then.

But, interestingly, George is judged lighter than the other.

I especially find it odd that you use the goal (being an objective reporter) as part of the judgment calculus for ethics issues. Seems like a faulty recursive type of definition in scope.

I agree with OO above that George does an exemplary job in *trying* to shield his biases. But, it is interesting that the view on who should disclose and why is is becoming a very subjective viewpoint (with one of the judgement criteria being whether one is 'objective' -- which I would say is again just another 'subjective' criteria.) (Words, have to love when the decision of whom is an 'objective' reporter is actually very 'subjective' in practice...)

Is it news to the public that George S. worked for the campaign? Was it not disclosed to the public before he reported on Clinton?

Is it news to the public that Hannity was involved with Cohen? Was it not disclosed to the public before he reported on Cohen?
Someone whose twitter handle is PopeHat is surmising that Cohen is highly motivated to exaggerate his client portfolio (from 2 legit clients to 3...LOL) because of the very thing Tanq brought up earlier (the government arguing that no privilege should exist because Cohen did not have enough clients to justify having privilege).

So it seems a highly plausible scenario is that Cohen recalls back to some random happy hour where Hannity bought him a martini (the aforementioned $10 in payment for services rendered), declares that ACP existed during that happy hour and deems Hannity to be one of his clients as represented to the court solely in a bid to inflate his client portfolio and add legitimacy to his practice. Somewhat of a bush league move to drag Hannity into this if this is really what happened. I was initially a skeptic that this legal advice was solely some talk over drinks, but I can see now where the motivation exists for Cohen to play something like this up to the court. This move might really backfire on Cohen if none of documents seized are part of Cohen's body of legal advice to Hannity. Of course, Hannity likely doesn't want to pile onto his good buddy Trump at this moment, but otherwise he should have thrown Cohen under the bus for dragging his reputation through the mud and more pointedly attacked the premise that he was a client of Cohen's (I still think Hannity is taking a hit here, although people disagree since he is cleared from journalistic integrity due to his official title of Commentator).
I am trying to find the article, but someone had a good write up including several examples of shady ethics in "journalism" that seemed to touch every major TV news channel. Obviously George Snuffaloughogus is a huge Clinton plant and that should be continuously pointed out. Several other journalists have exhibited serious conflicts of interest (Olbermann comes to mind, but several others have stepped in this trap before). Also hilarious watching the schmucks on CNN parading around Hannity's problem right now like they are some sort of religious authority of journalistic integrity when they are hacks just the same. What a bunch of sanctimonious a-holes.

I hate bad ethics, but especially when it is coming from someone supposedly on my side of the fight. Bad ethics weakens the message unnecessarily. I hate the fact that FoxNews and other conservative types put up with this sort of nonsense because it only creates weakness in the long run. Oh well.
(04-18-2018 02:07 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-18-2018 01:36 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-18-2018 10:13 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-17-2018 11:12 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-17-2018 09:29 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]Because he is involved with journalism in one way or another, through his association with Fox, he should have an ethical obligation to inform his viewers of his relationship with Cohen

I guess I missed George Stephanpoulous' strenuous efforts on the same, "/b/ecause he is involved with journalism in one way or another, through his association with Fox ABC, he should have an ethical obligation to inform his viewers of his relationship with Cohen the Clinton clownshow, especially when he interviews Comey on the subject of the Clinton investigation" Funny that.

I cant wait for the moral outrage on that.

Um, it's public record? And any of us born before 1980 probably remember George S. from back then anyway. (At least they don't do fluff pieces on how dreamy he is any more!) He's had a decade or two for people to decide on his level of objectivity.

Hannity was concealing something directly related to stories he was commenting on; there's really no ambiguity that he should have disclosed it from a journalism perspective. I can't believe that's even being debated.

Having said that, is it shocking or "news" that Hannity is not an objective journalist? Nope. But when he was ranting and raving about the raids on Cohen's office, I don't think anyone thought he was the secret "third client"...

So let me get this straight:

an objective reporter with a long history with person A gets a free pass with respect to anything dealing with person A at least in part b/c they are an 'objective' journalist;

a biased commentator, who wears his views on his sleeve and has a medium depth, shortish history with Person B *must* 'disclose' all with respect to person B.

I find it interesting that you give lighter scrutiny to the 'objective reporter' based in part because they are 'objective' as opposed to a clearly biased commentator.

And you neglected to note that short george has more than a passing relationship in the Clinton entourage. He was as deeply embedded in it as you can get for at least a decade; and has not shunned them in the slightest since then.

But, interestingly, George is judged lighter than the other.

I especially find it odd that you use the goal (being an objective reporter) as part of the judgment calculus for ethics issues. Seems like a faulty recursive type of definition in scope.

I agree with OO above that George does an exemplary job in *trying* to shield his biases. But, it is interesting that the view on who should disclose and why is is becoming a very subjective viewpoint (with one of the judgement criteria being whether one is 'objective' -- which I would say is again just another 'subjective' criteria.) (Words, have to love when the decision of whom is an 'objective' reporter is actually very 'subjective' in practice...)

Is it news to the public that George S. worked for the campaign? Was it not disclosed to the public before he reported on Clinton?

Is it news to the public that Hannity was involved with Cohen? Was it not disclosed to the public before he reported on Cohen?

so the rule is now 'say it once and you are in easy peasy street'? which ethics set of rules perchance has this temporal or one-time formulation? or did you make this up?
Reader's Digest version:

(04-18-2018 01:36 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]. . . George does an exemplary job . . .


To which I say: aw shucks!
(04-18-2018 02:39 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-18-2018 02:07 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-18-2018 01:36 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-18-2018 10:13 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-17-2018 11:12 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]I guess I missed George Stephanpoulous' strenuous efforts on the same, "/b/ecause he is involved with journalism in one way or another, through his association with Fox ABC, he should have an ethical obligation to inform his viewers of his relationship with Cohen the Clinton clownshow, especially when he interviews Comey on the subject of the Clinton investigation" Funny that.

I cant wait for the moral outrage on that.

Um, it's public record? And any of us born before 1980 probably remember George S. from back then anyway. (At least they don't do fluff pieces on how dreamy he is any more!) He's had a decade or two for people to decide on his level of objectivity.

Hannity was concealing something directly related to stories he was commenting on; there's really no ambiguity that he should have disclosed it from a journalism perspective. I can't believe that's even being debated.

Having said that, is it shocking or "news" that Hannity is not an objective journalist? Nope. But when he was ranting and raving about the raids on Cohen's office, I don't think anyone thought he was the secret "third client"...

So let me get this straight:

an objective reporter with a long history with person A gets a free pass with respect to anything dealing with person A at least in part b/c they are an 'objective' journalist;

a biased commentator, who wears his views on his sleeve and has a medium depth, shortish history with Person B *must* 'disclose' all with respect to person B.

I find it interesting that you give lighter scrutiny to the 'objective reporter' based in part because they are 'objective' as opposed to a clearly biased commentator.

And you neglected to note that short george has more than a passing relationship in the Clinton entourage. He was as deeply embedded in it as you can get for at least a decade; and has not shunned them in the slightest since then.

But, interestingly, George is judged lighter than the other.

I especially find it odd that you use the goal (being an objective reporter) as part of the judgment calculus for ethics issues. Seems like a faulty recursive type of definition in scope.

I agree with OO above that George does an exemplary job in *trying* to shield his biases. But, it is interesting that the view on who should disclose and why is is becoming a very subjective viewpoint (with one of the judgement criteria being whether one is 'objective' -- which I would say is again just another 'subjective' criteria.) (Words, have to love when the decision of whom is an 'objective' reporter is actually very 'subjective' in practice...)

Is it news to the public that George S. worked for the campaign? Was it not disclosed to the public before he reported on Clinton?

Is it news to the public that Hannity was involved with Cohen? Was it not disclosed to the public before he reported on Cohen?

so the rule is now 'say it once and you are in easy peasy street'? which ethics set of rules perchance has this temporal or one-time formulation? or did you make this up?

Care to answer the question?
Is Hannity known to be an opinion hack with very slanted views? Does his relationship alter that perception in any material way?

Is Stephanopoulos presented as an objective news commentator? Does his connection with Clinton impact that in any material way?

May answers are yes, no, yes, and yes.
(04-18-2018 10:15 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote: [ -> ]"Gorgeous George"

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1992/...ous-george

Are they talking about Curious, Webb, or Steph? You decide.

The original GG
(04-18-2018 03:34 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-18-2018 02:39 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-18-2018 02:07 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-18-2018 01:36 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-18-2018 10:13 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote: [ -> ]Um, it's public record? And any of us born before 1980 probably remember George S. from back then anyway. (At least they don't do fluff pieces on how dreamy he is any more!) He's had a decade or two for people to decide on his level of objectivity.

Hannity was concealing something directly related to stories he was commenting on; there's really no ambiguity that he should have disclosed it from a journalism perspective. I can't believe that's even being debated.

Having said that, is it shocking or "news" that Hannity is not an objective journalist? Nope. But when he was ranting and raving about the raids on Cohen's office, I don't think anyone thought he was the secret "third client"...

So let me get this straight:

an objective reporter with a long history with person A gets a free pass with respect to anything dealing with person A at least in part b/c they are an 'objective' journalist;

a biased commentator, who wears his views on his sleeve and has a medium depth, shortish history with Person B *must* 'disclose' all with respect to person B.

I find it interesting that you give lighter scrutiny to the 'objective reporter' based in part because they are 'objective' as opposed to a clearly biased commentator.

And you neglected to note that short george has more than a passing relationship in the Clinton entourage. He was as deeply embedded in it as you can get for at least a decade; and has not shunned them in the slightest since then.

But, interestingly, George is judged lighter than the other.

I especially find it odd that you use the goal (being an objective reporter) as part of the judgment calculus for ethics issues. Seems like a faulty recursive type of definition in scope.

I agree with OO above that George does an exemplary job in *trying* to shield his biases. But, it is interesting that the view on who should disclose and why is is becoming a very subjective viewpoint (with one of the judgement criteria being whether one is 'objective' -- which I would say is again just another 'subjective' criteria.) (Words, have to love when the decision of whom is an 'objective' reporter is actually very 'subjective' in practice...)

Is it news to the public that George S. worked for the campaign? Was it not disclosed to the public before he reported on Clinton?

Is it news to the public that Hannity was involved with Cohen? Was it not disclosed to the public before he reported on Cohen?

so the rule is now 'say it once and you are in easy peasy street'? which ethics set of rules perchance has this temporal or one-time formulation? or did you make this up?

Care to answer the question?

Your implication is clear here Lad. You tell people once and it is clear. Where did you derive this formulation?

You clearly set this rhetorical question set up as a sole and only differentiator. And they are 'different' no doubt. So answered Lad.

Perhaps it might be your turn to explain the importance of these in the world of journalistic ethics, and point us to any place inthat world that sums up "you talk once, it is Okay'. Anywhere. I mean you are the guy telling everyone here *what* constitutes such egregious conduct on a flatly determinative 'cut and dry' basis, to the point that subjective belief of the subject apparently means nothing at all. So you must be able to point us where this exists as a differentiator with that depth of knowledge.

Further, you are making zero differential between a 'real representation' (which really could lead to those questions) and a 'cocktail representation', except that somewhere, somehow ACP == representation in its fullest, and therefore there is a 'cut and dry' journalistic ethics violation.

Tell me Lad, assume a journalist, half drunk, asks me for broad advice, with the time worn adage 'hey dude remember privilege applies' as he slobbers on the rug. Are you *really* telling me that if that journalist *ever* covers me, then if he doesnt say 'well as a half-assed cocktail conversation I had a representation from the bloviating lawyer' that is a 'cut and dry' ethics violation? Seriously?

Look, if it comes out that Cohen actually authored a legal document, was paid more than a cost of coacktail, or generally did *anything* more than accept the price of a cocktail and talk generalities, I would be in your camp. But there is *no* evidence that points that way. If you know of some, please cite it. And send it to Fox News for action. And with that absolute paucity of additional facts, you are seemingly more than eager to proclaim it a fundamentally determinative case of journalistic ethics violations.

I find the juxtaposition of your reasoned approach to the Mueller Investigation (we dont know anything here, let it proceed, let us talk about facts) in a very strong opposition to what looks like a rush to reach a 'cut and dry' and stunningly obvious ethical violation without the same measure of supporting facts.

And by the way Lad. George was far fing more than just 'worked for the campaign' as your question predicate stands. Since apparently you do not have a clue as to the depth of George's relationship with the Clinton team, maybe the you just self-answered your own question, but in a way that actually detracts from your defense of him.
There are a lot of millennials who can vote but have no memory of george working for the Clintons.

To borrow a concept from the gun debate, if even one voter is unaware of George's past involvement with the Clintons, that is too many.
https://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2018/...-interest/

Rush does a good job going through the list of so-called "journalists" who actually are just failed political hacks who masquerade as journalists much like George S. That said, it is hard for me to name off a list of people I would consider to be real actual journalists.
My half-brother Doug Sovern is an award-winning radio journalist in the Bay Area (the CBS news station out there) who has been covering politics there for 35 years. He went to Brown and pretty much knows every journalist in the industry (a lot of them he went to school with or they were in different Ivy League schools when he was at Brown). His father (not mine) was president of Columbia from 1980 to 1993 and was on a short list to become a Supreme Court justice under Clinton.

Maybe it's because of their connections, but I am pretty much aware of all the people Rush mentioned in that article. But the big difference is all of those connections are out there in the open to begin with. People knew about them at one point but they become forgotten over time. Hannity would have become yesterday's news if he had disclosed the Cohen connection after the FBI raid. I'm already beginning to forget the connection now.

To me the more interesting issue is that Cohen only has 3 clients (granted Trump takes up most of his time). You're saying 1 of the 3 is someone he only gives out occasional legal advice to? Either Cohen is an idiot to even mention Hannity is a client of his, or Hannity is lying.
(04-19-2018 12:32 AM)flash3200 Wrote: [ -> ]https://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2018/...-interest/

Rush does a good job going through the list of so-called "journalists" who actually are just failed political hacks who masquerade as journalists much like George S. That said, it is hard for me to name off a list of people I would consider to be real actual journalists.

TV "journalists' whom I consider to do a better than average job of being unbiased in their presentations and questioning are Jonathan Carl, Jake Tapper, and Bret Baier. I could not even begin to tell what are the personal politics of Carl. Jake and Bret, I know but think they usually do a good job of concealing.

Among the worst are Wolf Blitzer and Joe/Mika. I never watch Rachel Maddow but I hear she is bad too.
Another point about complaining about journalists being biased is that it strikes me about the same as Rice (and other schools of its ilk) complaining about the bias the power 5 conferences have over the have nots. Complaining really isn't going to change the status quo - it's pretty much out there and unstoppable that the power 5 schools have an advantage over the others, and that media is biased towards the left.
(04-19-2018 07:23 AM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote: [ -> ]Another point about complaining about journalists being biased is that it strikes me about the same as Rice (and other schools of its ilk) complaining about the bias the power 5 conferences have over the have nots. Complaining really isn't going to change the status quo - it's pretty much out there and unstoppable that the power 5 schools have an advantage over the others, and that media is biased towards the left.

maybe replace complaining with noticing and/or acknowledging for clarity?

I know which journalists I think are biased, and adjust accordingly.

When Wolf says something like "Fred, is this the sort of boorish behavior the American people should expect from their President", I clearly understand he is expressing an opinion, not searching for facts. I care not what his opinion is, I only tune in to hear CNN's slant on whatever is happening.
I am reminded of the 19th Century days when newspapers (the mass media of the day) were overtly partisan -- so much so that they had names like St Louis Democrat and Springfield (MA) Republican.

Ironically (from today's standpoint), my understanding is that the St Louis Globe-Democrat (at it was known for over 100 years) was the city's more conservative paper, while the St Louis Post-Dispatch (Joseph Pultitzer's paper, and still going) was the more liberal one.

Speaking of Springfield newspapers, I remember in the very early days of The Simpsons having a conversation with a friend about what the name of the Springfield paper would be. We agreed that, in keeping with the principles of the show, it had to be a name that was severely lame -- not merely dull like "Gazette", but dull and supremely insipid. We tossed out ideas like "The Springfield Springfieldian". Shortly thereafter, we found that the writers had chosen the name "Springfield Shopper", which was lamer than even our lamest ideas. Those guys are brilliant.
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