CSNbbs

(06-04-2020 11:15 AM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 10:17 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 09:28 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 06:13 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]Boil this post down and it’s a tribalistic “Liberals bad, conservatives good.” It’s pretty impressive how all the blame is shifted to liberals, as opposed to evenly spread, as it should be.

Yet it is your tribe that calls us 'deplorables". it is your tribe that riots and attacks us.

But the most intriguing this is the 50/50 split of blame you propose. where is the evidence for that?

I think in the case of the rioting and civil unrest across the country, we can rightfully put the lion's share of blame on the left.

On the matter of the Covid shutdown, I don't know where to put the blame. But I do know one tribe wants to re-open more than the other, and the other tribe wants to to extend the closings at any economic cost.

Quote:

This also ignores that liberals had been protesting the exact same issue of police brutality, but had been told that peacefully kneeling during the national anthem wasn’t appropriate. The grievance isn’t new, and the grievance has legitimacy about the structural issues that result in biased outcomes in policing.

Police brutality is rare these days. I remember when it wasn't. Take my word for it, things have changed. But in any case, it is not limited to white cops/black citizens. Why do you think it is? Because of the vague charge of "systemic" racism? How do you prove that? But in any case, why hasn't it been addressed and rooted out by the legions of black/Democratic police officials and city and county officials over the last 40-60 years? How can we blame that on the conservatives, when it is the liberals in power where the "brutality" and 'systemic racism" occurs?

OO, what are your circumstances that allow you to assess the state of police brutality these days? Specifically when it comes to the current experience of inner-city black males (which seems to be the main issue when these stories keep hitting the news cycle)?

So the tactic in this post is to question OOs bona fides on opining on 'the current experience of inner city black males'.

Considering your unabashed and unqualified assertion of deep systemic issues on that very same topic, the natural qestion arises of what the hell are yours to do the same exact thing?

See my answer above. I don't position myself as an authority on the experience of black males in the inner-city.

OO basically said... "Trust me on this... police brutality is not that bad these days" and I wondered how he knows because I would imagine most of us (me included) on this forum have very little insight into that particular topic.

(06-04-2020 11:22 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 11:01 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 10:17 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 09:28 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 06:13 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]Boil this post down and it’s a tribalistic “Liberals bad, conservatives good.” It’s pretty impressive how all the blame is shifted to liberals, as opposed to evenly spread, as it should be.

Yet it is your tribe that calls us 'deplorables". it is your tribe that riots and attacks us.

But the most intriguing this is the 50/50 split of blame you propose. where is the evidence for that?

I think in the case of the rioting and civil unrest across the country, we can rightfully put the lion's share of blame on the left.

On the matter of the Covid shutdown, I don't know where to put the blame. But I do know one tribe wants to re-open more than the other, and the other tribe wants to to extend the closings at any economic cost.

Quote:

This also ignores that liberals had been protesting the exact same issue of police brutality, but had been told that peacefully kneeling during the national anthem wasn’t appropriate. The grievance isn’t new, and the grievance has legitimacy about the structural issues that result in biased outcomes in policing.

Police brutality is rare these days. I remember when it wasn't. Take my word for it, things have changed. But in any case, it is not limited to white cops/black citizens. Why do you think it is? Because of the vague charge of "systemic" racism? How do you prove that? But in any case, why hasn't it been addressed and rooted out by the legions of black/Democratic police officials and city and county officials over the last 40-60 years? How can we blame that on the conservatives, when it is the liberals in power where the "brutality" and 'systemic racism" occurs?

OO, what are your circumstances that allow you to assess the state of police brutality these days? Specifically when it comes to the current experience of inner-city black males (which seems to be the main issue when these stories keep hitting the news cycle)?

I guess you are saying that if I am not an inner city black male, I cannot speak to this. I would then ask in return how you can. But I will do my best to respond to your question as if it was a real question.

I definitely can't. I have to rely on what I hear from the black community.

I appreciate your experience and that, in many ways, the treatment of minorities has improved since the 1950s. This doesn't mean that there are not significant issues that face POC in America. Police brutality being one of them.

By any reasonable statistical measure, fatal police brutality -- a cop killing someone without legal justification -- is rare, and has never been more so in this country's admittedly imperfect but hardly irredeemably evil history. It is vanishingly rare, even when compared just to all fatal shootings by police (of which there about 1000 every year), never mind the orders-of-magnitude-larger number of all arrests by police (10 million per year), never mind again all citizen interactions with police (50 million per year).

And then the specific subset of white-cop-kills-black-citizen is smaller still.

So yes there is a "systemic" and "institutional" problem here. Quite a lot of institutions -- media, academia, one of the country's two political parties, etc. -- have stoked the notion -- the lie -- that what is rare is actually commonplace.

And this is now believed as an article of faith, and when an outlier event happens, confirmation bias turns it into "proof" of the thing believed in.

(06-04-2020 11:22 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 11:01 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 10:17 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 09:28 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 06:13 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]Boil this post down and it’s a tribalistic “Liberals bad, conservatives good.” It’s pretty impressive how all the blame is shifted to liberals, as opposed to evenly spread, as it should be.

Yet it is your tribe that calls us 'deplorables". it is your tribe that riots and attacks us.

But the most intriguing this is the 50/50 split of blame you propose. where is the evidence for that?

I think in the case of the rioting and civil unrest across the country, we can rightfully put the lion's share of blame on the left.

On the matter of the Covid shutdown, I don't know where to put the blame. But I do know one tribe wants to re-open more than the other, and the other tribe wants to to extend the closings at any economic cost.

Quote:

This also ignores that liberals had been protesting the exact same issue of police brutality, but had been told that peacefully kneeling during the national anthem wasn’t appropriate. The grievance isn’t new, and the grievance has legitimacy about the structural issues that result in biased outcomes in policing.

Police brutality is rare these days. I remember when it wasn't. Take my word for it, things have changed. But in any case, it is not limited to white cops/black citizens. Why do you think it is? Because of the vague charge of "systemic" racism? How do you prove that? But in any case, why hasn't it been addressed and rooted out by the legions of black/Democratic police officials and city and county officials over the last 40-60 years? How can we blame that on the conservatives, when it is the liberals in power where the "brutality" and 'systemic racism" occurs?

OO, what are your circumstances that allow you to assess the state of police brutality these days? Specifically when it comes to the current experience of inner-city black males (which seems to be the main issue when these stories keep hitting the news cycle)?

I guess you are saying that if I am not an inner city black male, I cannot speak to this. I would then ask in return how you can. But I will do my best to respond to your question as if it was a real question.

I definitely can't. I have to rely on what I hear from the black community.

I appreciate your experience and that, in many ways, the treatment of minorities has improved since the 1950s. This doesn't mean that there are not significant issues that face POC in America. Police brutality being one of them.

I have no idea of the extent and manner of your involvement with the "black community", especially the ones living in the inner city. If I were to bet, I would assume you live in mostly white housing in a mostly white neghborhood far from the inner city, but I could be wrong. Maybe you are the lone white guy in a black neighborhood. I know one such liberal and admire him for living his convictions. But my guess is what you hear from the black community you hear through the TV.

If I relied on what I hear from the 'aged community", I would think that their residence is infested with rapists hiding in the spaces in the walls. Just because they think they see something, does not mean it is real. We have brains - let's use them instead of blindly accepting what we are told without question.

Police brutality is NOT one of them. Poverty is one. The deterioration of the family is one. But this "police brutality" is like a flat tire - it happens occasionally, it is vexing when it happens, but it is not an everyday occurrence. I think we could make more progress toward a colorblind society if certain groups were not always drawing attention to color.


It saddens me to see you and so many like you swallow this. But that is why I am a conservative and you are...not. You believe what you are told without analysis. I analyse. If a black man says to you that he was stopped for a DWB by a racist cop, you believe him. I think, why would he believe that? What are the facts?

I think also we come from very different circumstances and times. But I guess we will continue on our merry ways, one tilting at windmills, one ignoring them. (I left you some room there).

(06-04-2020 11:43 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 11:22 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 11:01 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 10:17 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 09:28 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]Yet it is your tribe that calls us 'deplorables". it is your tribe that riots and attacks us.

But the most intriguing this is the 50/50 split of blame you propose. where is the evidence for that?

I think in the case of the rioting and civil unrest across the country, we can rightfully put the lion's share of blame on the left.

On the matter of the Covid shutdown, I don't know where to put the blame. But I do know one tribe wants to re-open more than the other, and the other tribe wants to to extend the closings at any economic cost.




Police brutality is rare these days. I remember when it wasn't. Take my word for it, things have changed. But in any case, it is not limited to white cops/black citizens. Why do you think it is? Because of the vague charge of "systemic" racism? How do you prove that? But in any case, why hasn't it been addressed and rooted out by the legions of black/Democratic police officials and city and county officials over the last 40-60 years? How can we blame that on the conservatives, when it is the liberals in power where the "brutality" and 'systemic racism" occurs?

OO, what are your circumstances that allow you to assess the state of police brutality these days? Specifically when it comes to the current experience of inner-city black males (which seems to be the main issue when these stories keep hitting the news cycle)?

I guess you are saying that if I am not an inner city black male, I cannot speak to this. I would then ask in return how you can. But I will do my best to respond to your question as if it was a real question.

I definitely can't. I have to rely on what I hear from the black community.

I appreciate your experience and that, in many ways, the treatment of minorities has improved since the 1950s. This doesn't mean that there are not significant issues that face POC in America. Police brutality being one of them.

I have no idea of the extent and manner of your involvement with the "black community", especially the ones living in the inner city. If I were to bet, I would assume you live in mostly white housing in a mostly white neghborhood far from the inner city, but I could be wrong. Maybe you are the lone white guy in a black neighborhood. I know one such liberal and admire him for living his convictions. But my guess is what you hear from the black community you hear through the TV.

You are way off on this one, OO.

Quote:If I relied on what I hear from the 'aged community", I would think that their residence is infested with rapists hiding in the spaces in the walls. Just because they think they see something, does not mean it is real. We have brains - let's use them instead of blindly accepting what we are told without question.

Police brutality is NOT one of them. Poverty is one. The deterioration of the family is one. But this "police brutality" is like a flat tire - it happens occasionally, it is vexing when it happens, but it is not an everyday occurrence. I think we could make more progress toward a colorblind society if certain groups were not always drawing attention to color.


It saddens me to see you and so many like you swallow this. But that is why I am a conservative and you are...not. You believe what you are told without analysis. I analyse. If a black man says to you that he was stopped for a DWB by a racist cop, you believe him. I think, why would he believe that? What are the facts?

(06-04-2020 11:22 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]I definitely can't. I have to rely on what I hear from the black community.

So you get one side of a story--that, like every other story, has at least two sides--and go off half-cocked from there. Perhaps you would do well to make the effort to educate yourself sufficiently to enable a more balanced, objective view.

Quote:I appreciate your experience and that, in many ways, the treatment of minorities has improved since the 1950s. This doesn't mean that there are not significant issues that face POC in America. Police brutality being one of them.

Which begs the obvious question--so, how do we make them better?

Seems to me that just as there are two sides to the story, there are two sides that both need to make some moves:
1. One huge problem that I see with police--and with teachers, in another context--is that they are typically represented by powerful unions which exert great pressure to keep even bad officers--and teachers--employed. My understanding is that this officer had 12 complaints on his record. Without knowing the specifics it is hard to evaluate that raw number, but if a significant portion of them were for excessive violence or racist acts, he should have been long gone from the force. Interestingly, it appears that the decision not to pursue legal action to remove him for some of those prior complaints was taken by the DA for Hennepin County, one Amy Klobuchar. Reduce the power of unions to keep bad apples on the tree.
2. There are other techniques, such as community policing, that have been found to reduce tensions in numerous places.
3. A system of interactions between officers and citizens hime at helping each understand the other better. These should be in schools, and could also be in civic groups or other organized events.

On the other side it seems to me that one issue to address in the tendency of blacks to resist more often, while whites tend to cooperate more often. I've been stopped for no apparent reason on several occasions. I cooperated and was never charged or detained very long. I hear story after story from blacks about how offended and pissed off they were to be stopped, and some even admitted to being hostile or even resisting. Throw an attitude there, and you're going to get worse back.

Another problem, and this one won't fix easily, is the absence of fathers in so many one-parent back households. This clearly appears to have resulted in no small part from the Great Society programs to compensate unwed mothers. Have another baby, get a bigger handout. And if the father runs away, you get more money. So guess what, you get a huge spike in unwed mothers. Who would have thunk it? Duh.

(06-04-2020 11:47 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 11:43 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]I have no idea of the extent and manner of your involvement with the "black community", especially the ones living in the inner city. If I were to bet, I would assume you live in mostly white housing in a mostly white neghborhood far from the inner city, but I could be wrong. Maybe you are the lone white guy in a black neighborhood. I know one such liberal and admire him for living his convictions. But my guess is what you hear from the black community you hear through the TV.

You are way off on this one, OO.

I guess I was right on the others, then, since they were not bolded.

So where and how do you hear from the "black community"?

(06-04-2020 12:41 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 11:47 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 11:43 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]I have no idea of the extent and manner of your involvement with the "black community", especially the ones living in the inner city. If I were to bet, I would assume you live in mostly white housing in a mostly white neghborhood far from the inner city, but I could be wrong. Maybe you are the lone white guy in a black neighborhood. I know one such liberal and admire him for living his convictions. But my guess is what you hear from the black community you hear through the TV.

You are way off on this one, OO.

I guess I was right on the others, then, since they were not bolded.

So where and how do you hear from the "black community"?

Yes. I'm definitely not the lone white guy living in a black neighborhood. I live in a mostly white neighborhood which (like most of Houston) has areas of lower-income housing not that far way. My living situation is completely unremarkable. Nothing about where I live would suggest that I am an authority on inner-city black people and I have yet to present myself as such.

I hear from the "black community" from people who are near and dear to me that I speak with on a regular basis. Not daily but more than once/week. Sometimes we discuss the issues that we cover on this forum.

Again we have as a response a simple bald assertion stated as fact positive. Quite enlightening

(06-04-2020 01:34 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]Again we have as a response a simple bald assertion stated as fact positive. Quite enlightening

Not following. What was the “bald assertion”?

(06-04-2020 11:25 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 11:15 AM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 10:17 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 09:28 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 06:13 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]Boil this post down and it’s a tribalistic “Liberals bad, conservatives good.” It’s pretty impressive how all the blame is shifted to liberals, as opposed to evenly spread, as it should be.

Yet it is your tribe that calls us 'deplorables". it is your tribe that riots and attacks us.

But the most intriguing this is the 50/50 split of blame you propose. where is the evidence for that?

I think in the case of the rioting and civil unrest across the country, we can rightfully put the lion's share of blame on the left.

On the matter of the Covid shutdown, I don't know where to put the blame. But I do know one tribe wants to re-open more than the other, and the other tribe wants to to extend the closings at any economic cost.

Quote:

This also ignores that liberals had been protesting the exact same issue of police brutality, but had been told that peacefully kneeling during the national anthem wasn’t appropriate. The grievance isn’t new, and the grievance has legitimacy about the structural issues that result in biased outcomes in policing.

Police brutality is rare these days. I remember when it wasn't. Take my word for it, things have changed. But in any case, it is not limited to white cops/black citizens. Why do you think it is? Because of the vague charge of "systemic" racism? How do you prove that? But in any case, why hasn't it been addressed and rooted out by the legions of black/Democratic police officials and city and county officials over the last 40-60 years? How can we blame that on the conservatives, when it is the liberals in power where the "brutality" and 'systemic racism" occurs?

OO, what are your circumstances that allow you to assess the state of police brutality these days? Specifically when it comes to the current experience of inner-city black males (which seems to be the main issue when these stories keep hitting the news cycle)?

So the tactic in this post is to question OOs bona fides on opining on 'the current experience of inner city black males'.

Considering your unabashed and unqualified assertion of deep systemic issues on that very same topic, the natural qestion arises of what the hell are yours to do the same exact thing?

See my answer above. I don't position myself as an authority on the experience of black males in the inner-city.

OO basically said... "Trust me on this... police brutality is not that bad these days" and I wondered how he knows because I would imagine most of us (me included) on this forum have very little insight into that particular topic.

Yet you still note what "systemic" problems exist. Same assertion by you rotated 180 degrees.

Thus the comment.

(06-04-2020 03:31 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 11:25 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 11:15 AM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 10:17 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 09:28 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]Yet it is your tribe that calls us 'deplorables". it is your tribe that riots and attacks us.

But the most intriguing this is the 50/50 split of blame you propose. where is the evidence for that?

I think in the case of the rioting and civil unrest across the country, we can rightfully put the lion's share of blame on the left.

On the matter of the Covid shutdown, I don't know where to put the blame. But I do know one tribe wants to re-open more than the other, and the other tribe wants to to extend the closings at any economic cost.




Police brutality is rare these days. I remember when it wasn't. Take my word for it, things have changed. But in any case, it is not limited to white cops/black citizens. Why do you think it is? Because of the vague charge of "systemic" racism? How do you prove that? But in any case, why hasn't it been addressed and rooted out by the legions of black/Democratic police officials and city and county officials over the last 40-60 years? How can we blame that on the conservatives, when it is the liberals in power where the "brutality" and 'systemic racism" occurs?

OO, what are your circumstances that allow you to assess the state of police brutality these days? Specifically when it comes to the current experience of inner-city black males (which seems to be the main issue when these stories keep hitting the news cycle)?

So the tactic in this post is to question OOs bona fides on opining on 'the current experience of inner city black males'.

Considering your unabashed and unqualified assertion of deep systemic issues on that very same topic, the natural qestion arises of what the hell are yours to do the same exact thing?

See my answer above. I don't position myself as an authority on the experience of black males in the inner-city.

OO basically said... "Trust me on this... police brutality is not that bad these days" and I wondered how he knows because I would imagine most of us (me included) on this forum have very little insight into that particular topic.

Yet you still note what "systemic" problems exist. Same assertion by you rotated 180 degrees.

Thus the comment.

Got it. Sure... I have an opinion as to whether police brutality is a problem for the black community. I think everybody here has an opinion on this.

OO said, "Police brutality is rare these days. I remember when it wasn't. Take my word for it, things have changed." When he said, "Take my word for it," it made it seem that he had some additional insight beyond the rest of our experiences.

Now I am understanding that we should take his word for it because he applies a thoughtful analysis to issues whereas Lad, AtEase, Big, and I do not. Some would say that his attitude is condescending but I just feel lucky to have the benefit of his careful analysis on this forum.

#s

Thanks for posting the objective #s on the use oc lethal force. That was the subject i was trying to steer this with my question that was never answered by our resident progressives.

Those numbers are far from indicative of the flyby pass off of a 'systemic problem. I note the absolute sound of crickets from our left leaners here on that very major difference between their sweeping assertions and vague and gossamer hand waving as such a major impactful problem.

I see 93 bactracking from his comments re the broad 'black community' view to 'the number of blacks whom he speaks with on this, however few or many that is'. Without any comment on the quite small number you mention.

And lad has dimply blipped over the mention of this number.

Yep, quite an eye opening number note. Not anywhere near endemic, nor pervasive, let alone the favorite buzzeord of "systemic" that is tossed about with more ghzn than a little bigor by some here.

(06-04-2020 04:08 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]#s
Thanks for posting the objective #s on the use oc lethal force. That was the subject i was trying to steer this with my question that was never answered by our resident progressives.
Those numbers are far from indicative of the flyby pass off of a 'systemic problem. I note the absolute sound of crickets from our left leaners here on that very major difference between their sweeping assertions and vague and gossamer hand waving as such a major impactful problem.
I see 93 bactracking from his comments re the broad 'black community' view to 'the number of blacks whom he speaks with on this, however few or many that is'. Without any comment on the quite small number you mention.
And lad has dimply blipped over the mention of this number.
Yep, quite an eye opening number note. Not anywhere near endemic, nor pervasive, let alone the favorite buzzeord of "systemic" that is tossed about with more ghzn than a little bigor by some here.

Happy to oblige.

By saying that it's not widespread, I don't mean to make light of the problem, because there are some bad cops out there. Somebody killed those 235 black people, and they weren't all justified. There has to be a viable way to get rid of bad cops, and the officers themselves need to realize that and want it.

I also think more needs to be discussed about the difference in attitudes. Us white folks raise our kids to trust and respect police. Black kids grow up with more of a distrust and resist attitude. That point has been brought home to me repeatedly by several independent experiences over the last couple of years, no need to repeat them now. But if you have two citizen-police encounters, and in one the citizen respects and trusts the officer, and in the other the citizen distrusts and resists the officer, it's not hard to figure out that they're going to end differently.

There have to be more channels opened for communication between police and people of color. Officers need to go to schools, they need to present to civic organizations, and special events need to be conducted. Officers and the community need to get to know each other as friends.

Finally, I think the key to addressing this and a number of other problems is getting back to two-parent families. The programs to aid single mothers need to be revamped so they do not encourage father flight, but rather reward staying together in two-parent families. When I was a youngster, one thing that always made a huge impression on me was just how strong the black families that I knew were. The Great Society killed that. Getting back to that would be a huge step in the right direction.

As far as questioning OO's credentials to talk about how things are better now, consider this. OO grew up hispanic in the Valley. He, his family, and his friends knew how bad it could be then. He knows it is better there now. And I think it's entirely reasonable to infer that the same changes that have made it better for browns in the Valley have made it better for blacks in inner cities.

Quote:By now, everyone reading this is aware that on Monday night President Trump committed a grotesque and unconstitutional abuse of power: To show that he was “reclaiming the territory” around the White House, our channel-surfing faux-strongman had law enforcement officers use gas, rubber pellets, batons, and smoke grenades to violently disrupt a peaceful protest just north of Lafayette Square—before curfew—under orders of Attorney General William Barr.

After the inevitable blowback from this action on “the shows,” the Trump administration and its propagandists—both in the public and private sectors—began test-driving some alternative facts about the events of Monday evening. Maybe the U.S. Park Police acted on its own out of self-defense, they suggested. Maybe its officers didn’t use tear gas, they suggested. Maybe this was all one big coincidence.

In short, they think you are ******* stupid.

But because this is how we live now, we have to take apart this hoax that tries to convince Americans that a real thing, that they saw with their own eyes, was actually something else.

Not that we should be surprised: They’ve tried this before.

Before we get to the debunking of the “debunking,” if you feel at all uncertain about what happened outside the White House on Monday, I implore you to not take my word for it. Stop, click this link, and go to the 24:00 mark. Watch for as long as you can stomach it.

That video is the enraging, sickening, unconscionable, and un-American reality.

Now, let’s go to the Trumpist lies and propaganda.

Quote:The preposterous Park Service story would have you believe that in the moments before the request to clear the area came down from the Secret Service, some rogue protesters launched an attack that required snuffing out. But even that improbable version of events has quite a few problems:

For starters, a senior Justice Department official said that it was William Barr who ordered the police action.
This statement makes some sense. Look here, Barr is the guy in the Jos. A. Bank suit. He’s standing behind the police at 6:19, shortly before the supposed “violence” broke out. What would he be doing here if he hadn’t ordered the action?
Also, in the raw video you can see the addition of the Secret Service civil disturbance unit forming behind the Park Police. The Washington Post reported that Trump’s deputy chief of staff Tony Ornato requested that the Secret Service prepare the area for the president’s stroll.

So we have common sense, video evidence, and an admission by administration officials that law enforcement’s violent actions were directed proactively by the White House in order to create Trump’s photo op. Seems like an open-and-shut case to me.

More at link- tear gas hoax

(06-04-2020 03:52 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 03:31 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 11:25 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 11:15 AM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 10:17 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]OO, what are your circumstances that allow you to assess the state of police brutality these days? Specifically when it comes to the current experience of inner-city black males (which seems to be the main issue when these stories keep hitting the news cycle)?

So the tactic in this post is to question OOs bona fides on opining on 'the current experience of inner city black males'.

Considering your unabashed and unqualified assertion of deep systemic issues on that very same topic, the natural qestion arises of what the hell are yours to do the same exact thing?

See my answer above. I don't position myself as an authority on the experience of black males in the inner-city.

OO basically said... "Trust me on this... police brutality is not that bad these days" and I wondered how he knows because I would imagine most of us (me included) on this forum have very little insight into that particular topic.

Yet you still note what "systemic" problems exist. Same assertion by you rotated 180 degrees.

Thus the comment.

Got it. Sure... I have an opinion as to whether police brutality is a problem for the black community. I think everybody here has an opinion on this.

OO said, "Police brutality is rare these days. I remember when it wasn't. Take my word for it, things have changed." When he said, "Take my word for it," it made it seem that he had some additional insight beyond the rest of our experiences.

Now I am understanding that we should take his word for it because he applies a thoughtful analysis to issues whereas Lad, AtEase, Big, and I do not. Some would say that his attitude is condescending but I just feel lucky to have the benefit of his careful analysis on this forum.

Put your britches back on there cowlad.

I accord OOs opinion as OOs opinion. You jump back as 'how do you know anything on how black people feel.' An honest comment on a broad opinion.

Yet earlier you wax eloquently about 'systemic issues. '

Note that yours is also a broad based somewhat vacuous opinion.

Given your previous ctow of such a similar broad based opinion, your demand for such a justification seems so what shallow and hypocritical.

Are we straight now?

Care to comment on your assertion of systemic issues in light of the extremely low numbers provided by #s?

(06-04-2020 05:09 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 03:52 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 03:31 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 11:25 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 11:15 AM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]So the tactic in this post is to question OOs bona fides on opining on 'the current experience of inner city black males'.

Considering your unabashed and unqualified assertion of deep systemic issues on that very same topic, the natural qestion arises of what the hell are yours to do the same exact thing?

See my answer above. I don't position myself as an authority on the experience of black males in the inner-city.

OO basically said... "Trust me on this... police brutality is not that bad these days" and I wondered how he knows because I would imagine most of us (me included) on this forum have very little insight into that particular topic.

Yet you still note what "systemic" problems exist. Same assertion by you rotated 180 degrees.

Thus the comment.

Got it. Sure... I have an opinion as to whether police brutality is a problem for the black community. I think everybody here has an opinion on this.

OO said, "Police brutality is rare these days. I remember when it wasn't. Take my word for it, things have changed." When he said, "Take my word for it," it made it seem that he had some additional insight beyond the rest of our experiences.

Now I am understanding that we should take his word for it because he applies a thoughtful analysis to issues whereas Lad, AtEase, Big, and I do not. Some would say that his attitude is condescending but I just feel lucky to have the benefit of his careful analysis on this forum.

Put your britches back on there cowlad.

I accord OOs opinion as OOs opinion. You jump back as 'how do you know anything on how black people feel.' An honest comment on a broad opinion.

Huge stretch from "You seem to claim special insight into police brutality in the black community... please explain how that is so."

But we know that you like to make our comments hyperbolic and then respond to the hyperbole.

Quote:Yet earlier you wax eloquently about 'systemic issues. '

Note that yours is also a broad based somewhat vacuous opinion.

Given your previous ctow of such a similar broad based opinion, your demand for such a justification seems so what shallow and hypocritical.

Except that he seemed to claim expertise whereas I did not? I certainly didn't tout my connections/friendships in the black community. OO asked me where I was getting my insight into the black community to help me form my opinion.

Quote:[quote]

Are we straight now?

I hope so.

Quote:Care to comment on your assertion of systemic issues in light of the extremely low numbers provided by #s?

I haven't had time to dive into the studies that are out there. Did #'s post a link to the study that he was using? There seems to be a bunch of information out there and I'm sure either side could find bias in many of those studies. Different approaches abound... do you use rate of shootings per population or per police encounter. Do we think that non-shooting brutality is somehow reliably reported in order to have good data?

Here's one that came up recently on a quick Google search:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020...force.html

I'm happy to comment on it when I have real time to look at it. Hopefully #'s already posted the link to his study.

(06-04-2020 05:02 PM)At Ease Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:By now, everyone reading this is aware that on Monday night President Trump committed a grotesque and unconstitutional abuse of power: To show that he was “reclaiming the territory” around the White House, our channel-surfing faux-strongman had law enforcement officers use gas, rubber pellets, batons, and smoke grenades to violently disrupt a peaceful protest just north of Lafayette Square—before curfew—under orders of Attorney General William Barr.

After the inevitable blowback from this action on “the shows,” the Trump administration and its propagandists—both in the public and private sectors—began test-driving some alternative facts about the events of Monday evening. Maybe the U.S. Park Police acted on its own out of self-defense, they suggested. Maybe its officers didn’t use tear gas, they suggested. Maybe this was all one big coincidence.

In short, they think you are ******* stupid.

But because this is how we live now, we have to take apart this hoax that tries to convince Americans that a real thing, that they saw with their own eyes, was actually something else.

Not that we should be surprised: They’ve tried this before.

Before we get to the debunking of the “debunking,” if you feel at all uncertain about what happened outside the White House on Monday, I implore you to not take my word for it. Stop, click this link, and go to the 24:00 mark. Watch for as long as you can stomach it.

That video is the enraging, sickening, unconscionable, and un-American reality.

Now, let’s go to the Trumpist lies and propaganda.

Quote:The preposterous Park Service story would have you believe that in the moments before the request to clear the area came down from the Secret Service, some rogue protesters launched an attack that required snuffing out. But even that improbable version of events has quite a few problems:

For starters, a senior Justice Department official said that it was William Barr who ordered the police action.
This statement makes some sense. Look here, Barr is the guy in the Jos. A. Bank suit. He’s standing behind the police at 6:19, shortly before the supposed “violence” broke out. What would he be doing here if he hadn’t ordered the action?
Also, in the raw video you can see the addition of the Secret Service civil disturbance unit forming behind the Park Police. The Washington Post reported that Trump’s deputy chief of staff Tony Ornato requested that the Secret Service prepare the area for the president’s stroll.

So we have common sense, video evidence, and an admission by administration officials that law enforcement’s violent actions were directed proactively by the White House in order to create Trump’s photo op. Seems like an open-and-shut case to me.

More at link- tear gas hoax

Interesting. I guess either the journalists (or somebody else) planted this shell on the scene or tear gas (by anyone's definition) was used.

(06-04-2020 01:21 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 12:41 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 11:47 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 11:43 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: [ -> ]I have no idea of the extent and manner of your involvement with the "black community", especially the ones living in the inner city. If I were to bet, I would assume you live in mostly white housing in a mostly white neghborhood far from the inner city, but I could be wrong. Maybe you are the lone white guy in a black neighborhood. I know one such liberal and admire him for living his convictions. But my guess is what you hear from the black community you hear through the TV.

You are way off on this one, OO.

I guess I was right on the others, then, since they were not bolded.

So where and how do you hear from the "black community"?

Yes. I'm definitely not the lone white guy living in a black neighborhood. I live in a mostly white neighborhood which (like most of Houston) has areas of lower-income housing not that far way. My living situation is completely unremarkable. Nothing about where I live would suggest that I am an authority on inner-city black people and I have yet to present myself as such.

I hear from the "black community" from people who are near and dear to me that I speak with on a regular basis. Not daily but more than once/week. Sometimes we discuss the issues that we cover on this forum.

Are they black and/or residents of the inner city?

(06-04-2020 03:52 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 03:31 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 11:25 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 11:15 AM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-04-2020 10:17 AM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]OO, what are your circumstances that allow you to assess the state of police brutality these days? Specifically when it comes to the current experience of inner-city black males (which seems to be the main issue when these stories keep hitting the news cycle)?

So the tactic in this post is to question OOs bona fides on opining on 'the current experience of inner city black males'.

Considering your unabashed and unqualified assertion of deep systemic issues on that very same topic, the natural qestion arises of what the hell are yours to do the same exact thing?

See my answer above. I don't position myself as an authority on the experience of black males in the inner-city.

OO basically said... "Trust me on this... police brutality is not that bad these days" and I wondered how he knows because I would imagine most of us (me included) on this forum have very little insight into that particular topic.

Yet you still note what "systemic" problems exist. Same assertion by you rotated 180 degrees.

Thus the comment.

Got it. Sure... I have an opinion as to whether police brutality is a problem for the black community. I think everybody here has an opinion on this.

OO said, "Police brutality is rare these days. I remember when it wasn't. Take my word for it, things have changed." When he said, "Take my word for it," it made it seem that he had some additional insight beyond the rest of our experiences.

Now I am understanding that we should take his word for it because he applies a thoughtful analysis to issues whereas Lad, AtEase, Big, and I do not. Some would say that his attitude is condescending but I just feel lucky to have the benefit of his careful analysis on this forum.

I guess it truly is impossible to discuss things politely here.

My method is to think things through myself, basing my thoughts on what I have seen and what logically makes sense. Sorry if that doesn't work for you.

At least one of the names on your list is a MSM parrot.

(06-04-2020 05:25 PM)Rice93 Wrote: [ -> ]Except that he seemed to claim expertise whereas I did not? I certainly didn't tout my connections/friendships in the black community. OO asked me where I was getting my insight into the black community to help me form my opinion.

I thought I was expressing an opinion, not claiming expertise. Surprised you took it that way.

I currently know few black people.. none very well. But all the ones I know even slightly now would be considered middle to upper middle class - not the inner city. Also, please note the word "currently". In the past I have known in various capacities many black people from all strata of society, from bottom to top. Some have been friends, others acquaintances. But the narrative of systemic racism infecting only police departments, in every locale coast to coast, is going to need some work before I swallow it hook line and sinker. To me, it sounds like the story told on the MSM and other outlets. But it is not logical. Also, even if true, what does that say about the Democratic regimes in most of the worst cities? Yet we told that the solutin is to elect even more Democrats. More of the same should be a DNC platform plank.