(04-11-2018 11:43 AM)georgewebb Wrote: [ -> ] (04-11-2018 10:48 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote: [ -> ]Splitting this off into a separate post – I’ve said this before, and I only become more convinced of it over time, but it seems like taking offense at perceived slights from “elites” has become a defining characteristic of today’s Republican party. To the point that it’s just plain weird, and seemingly more important than policy.
Taking offense at perceived slights from "others", to a point that is weird and more important than policy, is indeed a (perhaps the) defining characteristic of contemporary identity politics. I will leave it to you to assess which party, if either, has hitched its wagon more to that star.
I know which one I bet he will say is "worse".
Is it more of a reach to think Hillary is talking about "you" when she says "deplorables" or when Obama talks about bitter clingers, than to think Trump hates Mexicans because he says "they are all rapists" when talking about illegals? I guess everybody stretches in the direction they want to go to. I didn't take Trump's statement to be racist, but those that want to take it that way, do, and then present it as "proof". Was Hillary talking about me? Was Obama? I think they were both talking about some stereotype they hold in their mind about people in the flyover states. Since I am between coasts, that's me. And it would probably be JAAO, until they found out he is a dyed in the wool democrat they can count on. Then he would be a jolly good fellow.
(04-11-2018 11:57 AM)At Ease Wrote: [ -> ] (04-11-2018 09:19 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote: [ -> ] (04-09-2018 08:57 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote: [ -> ]Anyway, I’m finding it almost impossible to keep up these days. There are probably half a dozen points in this thread I meant to respond to, but since my last post, I think at least another half dozen things have come up. And now we have a Syria crisis just as the nutjob Bolton takes over.
And since I posted this, FBI has raided Cohen's office, Trump has tweeted to "Russia" that a missile strike is coming*, and Paul Ryan is stepping down as Speaker. Whiplash.
*I could swear Trump lambasted Obama for warning opponents of imminent military action during the campaign. Maybe he was just upset Obama didn't warn them on twitter?
Maybe he has "evolved" in the direction of being like Obama? Isn't that what his detractors want?
(04-11-2018 11:22 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ] (04-11-2018 09:32 AM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ] (04-11-2018 02:54 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]So we are now conflating the OPINION of a single individual with the reporting of facts of a news organization. Got it. Remember, Dershowitz is giving his opinion on why something may be bad, not providing an account of the events.
Not at all. Most parallel construction schemes are sub rosa. Gee, I wonder why that real world fact of life really isnt reported. Do you *really* think the NY Times would report 'and a taint room is being set up per the manual, but will be ignored through back channels'? *That* happens all the fing time.... Again, grow up and smell the roses.
And, Lad, if you dont like being held to the *exact* same standard that you exhibit and require from others.... bummer.
Yeah, the NYTimes won’t report your speculation because it is speculation - pure speculation. I’ve provided you evidence from a news source, not an opinion article, for why, so far, things are being handled correctly. Sorry you don’t like the evidence, which is a primary source as opposed to the secondary source you provide, but that isn’t my fault. I am holding myself to the same standard, you’re just absolutely blinded at the moment.
My 'speculation' is built on real fing world experience with the operation of 'clean rooms', 'chinese walls' and much like that --- for over twenty years. Never once in *any* of them was a pristine environment maintained. Not a single fing one of them.
Nor has a client that experienced the other side of that type of experience ever gotten the truly theoretical benefit of it; and on more than just a few occasions provably so.
My *primary* source on how the structure operates is built on my own gd real world experience with the fing things. Take that to the fing bank, Lad, for whatever the hell you think it is worth, Lad.
So Lad, to be blunt, it is somewhat of a hoot to have someone who probably has never had any practical experience in the real world with 'taint rooms', 'clean rooms', or 'chinese wall' constructs telling me how it *really* is; based on what *they* read in the NY Times, and probably written by a reporter that hasnt had real-world fing experience with them either. Just saying.
(04-11-2018 11:49 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ] (04-11-2018 11:43 AM)georgewebb Wrote: [ -> ] (04-11-2018 10:48 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote: [ -> ]Splitting this off into a separate post – I’ve said this before, and I only become more convinced of it over time, but it seems like taking offense at perceived slights from “elites” has become a defining characteristic of today’s Republican party. To the point that it’s just plain weird, and seemingly more important than policy.
Taking offense at perceived slights from "others", to a point that is weird and more important than policy, is indeed a (perhaps the) defining characteristic of contemporary identity politics. I will leave it to you to assess which party, if either, has hitched its wagon more to that star.
Pre-2016, I would have said Dems. Post-Trump, 100% Reps. There has been a very interesting switch that happened hard and fast. Not saying Dems still don’t play this style of identity politics, but at the moment, that is the only thing holding the Republican Party together.
Yep. Its a ***** when the retarded kids who are teased incessantly throw a hissy-fit after so much, isnt it? And *so* completely unexpected.... I mean, they are retarded enough to not really care or remember, right?
As for 100 per cent, not even close; I will say Republicans are doing that a lot more than previously. But the amount of <pick your group de jure> baiting from the left really hasnt abated. I would say 60 per cent R, 40 per cent D.
Its a ***** when facing return fire. But your '100%' canard isnt even close; its not even in the ballpark.
(04-11-2018 12:25 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ] (04-11-2018 11:49 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ] (04-11-2018 11:43 AM)georgewebb Wrote: [ -> ] (04-11-2018 10:48 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote: [ -> ]Splitting this off into a separate post – I’ve said this before, and I only become more convinced of it over time, but it seems like taking offense at perceived slights from “elites” has become a defining characteristic of today’s Republican party. To the point that it’s just plain weird, and seemingly more important than policy.
Taking offense at perceived slights from "others", to a point that is weird and more important than policy, is indeed a (perhaps the) defining characteristic of contemporary identity politics. I will leave it to you to assess which party, if either, has hitched its wagon more to that star.
Pre-2016, I would have said Dems. Post-Trump, 100% Reps. There has been a very interesting switch that happened hard and fast. Not saying Dems still don’t play this style of identity politics, but at the moment, that is the only thing holding the Republican Party together.
Yep. Its a ***** when the retarded kids who are teased incessantly throw a hissy-fit after so much, isnt it? And *so* completely unexpected.... I mean, they are retarded enough to not really care or remember, right?
As for 100 per cent, not even close; I will say Republicans are doing that a lot more than previously. But the amount of <pick your group de jure> baiting from the left really hasnt abated. I would say 60 per cent R, 40 per cent D.
Its a ***** when facing return fire. But your '100%' canard isnt even close; its not even in the ballpark.
Tanq - you may wanna calm down a bit before you post. I think all of your anger clouds your reading comprehension. George was commenting on which party was MORE hitched to that wagon. That is why I was referring to when I said it switched. Notice how I even explicitly stated how I wasn’t giving the Dems a clean bill of health on this?
I hope you don’t blow a gasket when I suggest you’re back to posting in a hysterical fashion. Maybe take a step back from the keyboard if you’re getting this worked up.
(04-11-2018 12:22 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ] (04-11-2018 11:22 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ] (04-11-2018 09:32 AM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ] (04-11-2018 02:54 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]So we are now conflating the OPINION of a single individual with the reporting of facts of a news organization. Got it. Remember, Dershowitz is giving his opinion on why something may be bad, not providing an account of the events.
Not at all. Most parallel construction schemes are sub rosa. Gee, I wonder why that real world fact of life really isnt reported. Do you *really* think the NY Times would report 'and a taint room is being set up per the manual, but will be ignored through back channels'? *That* happens all the fing time.... Again, grow up and smell the roses.
And, Lad, if you dont like being held to the *exact* same standard that you exhibit and require from others.... bummer.
Yeah, the NYTimes won’t report your speculation because it is speculation - pure speculation. I’ve provided you evidence from a news source, not an opinion article, for why, so far, things are being handled correctly. Sorry you don’t like the evidence, which is a primary source as opposed to the secondary source you provide, but that isn’t my fault. I am holding myself to the same standard, you’re just absolutely blinded at the moment.
My 'speculation' is built on real fing world experience with the operation of 'clean rooms', 'chinese walls' and much like that --- for over twenty years. Never once in *any* of them was a pristine environment maintained. Not a single fing one of them.
Nor has a client that experienced the other side of that type of experience ever gotten the truly theoretical benefit of it; and on more than just a few occasions provably so.
My *primary* source on how the structure operates is built on my own gd real world experience with the fing things. Take that to the fing bank, Lad, for whatever the hell you think it is worth, Lad.
So Lad, to be blunt, it is somewhat of a hoot to have someone who probably has never had any practical experience in the real world with 'taint rooms', 'clean rooms', or 'chinese wall' constructs telling me how it *really* is; based on what *they* read in the NY Times, and probably written by a reporter that hasnt had real-world fing experience with them either. Just saying.
To be blunt - you really don’t understand my point, and I’m going to stop trying to reframe it to get you to understand what it is if you don’t get it after
This. Even your personal account is speculation onto what WILL happened. As informed as it is, it is still speculation because it hasn’t happened yet.
I provided evidence of what has happened, and how what has happened has been by the book. I’m trying not to speculate because, you’re right, I don’t work in this realm. And while I appreciate your experience, and opinions on what likely will happen, I’m not going to rush to judgement based on what you believe will happen. That’s why I’ve repeatedly stated how I understand your concerns. I find it telling that you seem to conveniently ignore that in every single response of yours. I’ll say it again, I understand what your concerns are, but we haven’t reached a point yet where we can say they have been borne out.
Of course there is no evidence of the taint room being tainted. There won't be unless there is something there and they can exploit it. And even in the exploitation case, it may never be known if parallel construction was used depending on the methods used to legally acquire evidence. Presumably, nothing is there, nothing will sneak over the 2 ft. tall Chinese wall, and we can keep believing in fairy tales and the sanctity of FBI agents.
If you think McCabe is somehow the only vehemently anti-Trump member in the senior leadership of the FBI & DOJ, you are seriously naive. He was only dumb enough to get caught, and his 50,000 (who has time to write that many messages in a year?? This guy was on the clock?) text messages only came out by chance. These guys running this investigation deserve exactly zero benefit of doubt when it comes to questioning their motives and fairness. For every McCabe that gets outed, there are 10x more inside the senior leadership who have not been caught exhibiting bias in their investigations. In general, I do not think any FBI investigation deserves the benefit of doubt ever; their perpetual ineptitude and overzealous prosecution of innocent people since their inception hardly speaks to justice. Obviously, if they uncover facts of illegal acts of Trump and members of his campaign team & administration then it is what it is and I guess we can celebrate the sanctity of the FBI & DOJ. To date, effectively zero facts have been uncovered outside of guys getting caught in perjury traps and dubious money laundering accusations.
Also, it is funny that Trump's sham charity took in $150,000 from this Ukraine guy while HRC's sham charity took in nearly 100x that amount from the same exact guy. 2 orders of magnitude larger of influence peddling cash to HRC, but hey the guy who took $150,000...he is the bad guy; how dare he. Investigate him!
(04-11-2018 12:48 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ] (04-11-2018 12:22 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ] (04-11-2018 11:22 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ] (04-11-2018 09:32 AM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ] (04-11-2018 02:54 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]So we are now conflating the OPINION of a single individual with the reporting of facts of a news organization. Got it. Remember, Dershowitz is giving his opinion on why something may be bad, not providing an account of the events.
Not at all. Most parallel construction schemes are sub rosa. Gee, I wonder why that real world fact of life really isnt reported. Do you *really* think the NY Times would report 'and a taint room is being set up per the manual, but will be ignored through back channels'? *That* happens all the fing time.... Again, grow up and smell the roses.
And, Lad, if you dont like being held to the *exact* same standard that you exhibit and require from others.... bummer.
Yeah, the NYTimes won’t report your speculation because it is speculation - pure speculation. I’ve provided you evidence from a news source, not an opinion article, for why, so far, things are being handled correctly. Sorry you don’t like the evidence, which is a primary source as opposed to the secondary source you provide, but that isn’t my fault. I am holding myself to the same standard, you’re just absolutely blinded at the moment.
My 'speculation' is built on real fing world experience with the operation of 'clean rooms', 'chinese walls' and much like that --- for over twenty years. Never once in *any* of them was a pristine environment maintained. Not a single fing one of them.
Nor has a client that experienced the other side of that type of experience ever gotten the truly theoretical benefit of it; and on more than just a few occasions provably so.
My *primary* source on how the structure operates is built on my own gd real world experience with the fing things. Take that to the fing bank, Lad, for whatever the hell you think it is worth, Lad.
So Lad, to be blunt, it is somewhat of a hoot to have someone who probably has never had any practical experience in the real world with 'taint rooms', 'clean rooms', or 'chinese wall' constructs telling me how it *really* is; based on what *they* read in the NY Times, and probably written by a reporter that hasnt had real-world fing experience with them either. Just saying.
To be blunt - you really don’t understand my point, and I’m going to stop trying to reframe it to get you to understand what it is if you don’t get it after
This. Even your personal account is speculation onto what WILL happened. As informed as it is, it is still speculation because it hasn’t happened yet.
I provided evidence of what has happened, and how what has happened has been by the book. I’m trying not to speculate because, you’re right, I don’t work in this realm. And while I appreciate your experience, and opinions on what likely will happen, I’m not going to rush to judgement based on what you believe will happen. That’s why I’ve repeatedly stated how I understand your concerns. I find it telling that you seem to conveniently ignore that in every single response of yours. I’ll say it again, I understand what your concerns are, but we haven’t reached a point yet where we can say they have been borne out.
Every person with an iota of legal experience sees this as a sub-rosa means of peeking at Trump papers. Every person who has had this experience, or a related one, also knows this.
But in Lad-land, and in NY Times-land, I am glad that both the real world experience with these things *and* the the purview of how the vast majority of people with legal experience view this means spit. Is that a fair assessment?
I mean, Dershowitz's opinion means spit as well in this context. Interesting. Hell, in Lad-land Dershowitz's view that the ACLU is left leaning doesnt mean anything either.
Your refusal to actually accept anything out of real-world land, that is if it isnt printed in the NY Times, really makes me wonder.
I am glad you take the physical structure of the 'taint room' provided by the deity-esque NY Times at complete face value, without the introduction of any peripheral view of how things really operate. You have a right to do that. Doesnt really impress me though. Massive difference between the theoretical nicety presented there and the real, gritty world that actually happens. But feel free to take that walk in the NY Times sunny day portrayal with that parasol in place. Again, you are free to do that.
(04-11-2018 12:43 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ] (04-11-2018 12:25 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ] (04-11-2018 11:49 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ] (04-11-2018 11:43 AM)georgewebb Wrote: [ -> ] (04-11-2018 10:48 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote: [ -> ]Splitting this off into a separate post – I’ve said this before, and I only become more convinced of it over time, but it seems like taking offense at perceived slights from “elites” has become a defining characteristic of today’s Republican party. To the point that it’s just plain weird, and seemingly more important than policy.
Taking offense at perceived slights from "others", to a point that is weird and more important than policy, is indeed a (perhaps the) defining characteristic of contemporary identity politics. I will leave it to you to assess which party, if either, has hitched its wagon more to that star.
Pre-2016, I would have said Dems. Post-Trump, 100% Reps. There has been a very interesting switch that happened hard and fast. Not saying Dems still don’t play this style of identity politics, but at the moment, that is the only thing holding the Republican Party together.
Yep. Its a ***** when the retarded kids who are teased incessantly throw a hissy-fit after so much, isnt it? And *so* completely unexpected.... I mean, they are retarded enough to not really care or remember, right?
As for 100 per cent, not even close; I will say Republicans are doing that a lot more than previously. But the amount of <pick your group de jure> baiting from the left really hasnt abated. I would say 60 per cent R, 40 per cent D.
Its a ***** when facing return fire. But your '100%' canard isnt even close; its not even in the ballpark.
Tanq - you may wanna calm down a bit before you post. I think all of your anger clouds your reading comprehension. George was commenting on which party was MORE hitched to that wagon. That is why I was referring to when I said it switched. Notice how I even explicitly stated how I wasn’t giving the Dems a clean bill of health on this?
I hope you don’t blow a gasket when I suggest you’re back to posting in a hysterical fashion. Maybe take a step back from the keyboard if you’re getting this worked up.
And I was commenting that they were probably about roughly equal now, with perhaps a skosh more on the R side. Perhaps I would also suggest a snide aside on *your* reading ability as well, for that matter Lad.
To say that it is 100% most definitely more R, to be blunt, completely overlooks the incessant and chronic drumbeat that remains consistent from the Progressive/liberal/Democratic camp. That drumbeat is about equal to the drumbeat from the opposite side at the moment.
Or has that PLD (progressive/liberal/democratic) drumbeat stopped and I was just too stupid to notice?
(04-11-2018 01:51 PM)flash3200 Wrote: [ -> ]Of course there is no evidence of the taint room being tainted. There won't be unless there is something there and they can exploit it. And even in the exploitation case, it may never be known if parallel construction was used depending on the methods used to legally acquire evidence. Presumably, nothing is there, nothing will sneak over the 2 ft. tall Chinese wall, and we can keep believing in fairy tales and the sanctity of FBI agents.
If you think McCabe is somehow the only vehemently anti-Trump member in the senior leadership of the FBI & DOJ, you are seriously naive. He was only dumb enough to get caught, and his 50,000 (who has time to write that many messages in a year?? This guy was on the clock?) text messages only came out by chance. These guys running this investigation deserve exactly zero benefit of doubt when it comes to questioning their motives and fairness. For every McCabe that gets outed, there are 10x more inside the senior leadership who have not been caught exhibiting bias in their investigations. In general, I do not think any FBI investigation deserves the benefit of doubt ever; their perpetual ineptitude and overzealous prosecution of innocent people since their inception hardly speaks to justice. Obviously, if they uncover facts of illegal acts of Trump and members of his campaign team & administration then it is what it is and I guess we can celebrate the sanctity of the FBI & DOJ. To date, effectively zero facts have been uncovered outside of guys getting caught in perjury traps and dubious money laundering accusations.
Also, it is funny that Trump's sham charity took in $150,000 from this Ukraine guy while HRC's sham charity took in nearly 100x that amount from the same exact guy. 2 orders of magnitude larger of influence peddling cash to HRC, but hey the guy who took $150,000...he is the bad guy; how dare he. Investigate him!
I don’t think McCabe had text messages released - I think you’re confusing him with Strozk. McCabe was fired for lacking candor.
(04-11-2018 02:51 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]I don’t think McCabe had text messages released - I think you’re confusing him with Strozk. McCabe was fired for lacking candor.
Doh...you are correct. Hard to keep track of which ethics violation or soft perjury each member of the FBI & DOJ senior leadership has committed.
Since the NY Times is the sin qua non of everything that is accurate in the world:
Quote:The F.B.I. agents who raided the office and hotel of President Trump’s lawyer on Monday were seeking all records related to the “Access Hollywood” tape in which Mr. Trump was heard making vulgar comments about women, according to three people who have been briefed on the contents of a federal search warrant.
The search warrant also sought evidence of whether the lawyer, Michael D. Cohen, tried to suppress damaging information about Mr. Trump during the 2016 presidential campaign.
Linky Poo to the Universe's Only Veracity on All Things Trump, Article re: Cohen Search
So, a) "Hollywood Access tape"; and b) trying to suppress damaging information. Better bring out the big guns. Sure sounds like a Mob consigliere to me. Or better yet, a veritable 'Kingpin'!
(04-11-2018 03:20 PM)flash3200 Wrote: [ -> ] (04-11-2018 02:51 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ]I don’t think McCabe had text messages released - I think you’re confusing him with Strozk. McCabe was fired for lacking candor.
Doh...you are correct. Hard to keep track of which ethics violation or soft perjury each member of the FBI & DOJ senior leadership has committed.
Throw in Rosenstein and you can add an obstruction of Congress for a pretty solid trifecta!
I had not read the specifics of the FBI search of Cohen's records until now.
FFS! Trump is now being investigated for the heinous crime of making vulgar statements?
Witch hunt.
(04-11-2018 03:59 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote: [ -> ]I had not read the specifics of the FBI search of Cohen's records until now.
FFS! Trump is now being investigated for the heinous crime of making vulgar statements?
Witch hunt.
I saw the headline to the article and am interested in what illegal actions could be associated with it. I assume it's not just related to what he said, right?
They are chasing Cohen for campaign violations. Top notch kingpin ****.... I am sure he made a bank deposit or a withdrawal, so add in the raft of 'money laundering' issues that Mueller seems to toss out like dubloons at a Mardi Gras whorehouse party. And I am sure he talked with someone, so count on another 4 or 5 'conspiracy' issues.
By the way Frizz, they are *not* investigating Trump, but Cohen. Chinese wall, taint room, mud room and such will certainly prevent what you commented on from happening, right?
Billy Bush might be a Russian plant. Just wait. Huge conspiracy brewing here. Better perform a search warrant on all records to make sure there wasn't a Russian bus driver or Russian actress involved or anything. Can't be too sure. Probably mob related as well!
This insistence that we wait for results before commenting on the process would not play well in the sports world. Should we make the baseball coach wait until the game is over to argue the out call at third?
(04-11-2018 04:08 PM)flash3200 Wrote: [ -> ]Billy Bush might be a Russian plant. Just wait. Huge conspiracy brewing here. Better perform a search warrant on all records to make sure there wasn't a Russian bus driver or Russian actress involved or anything. Can't be too sure. Probably mob related as well!
If those were the case, then Mueller obviously would not have handed this off, since those *would* be under the purview of the Russian 'investigation'.
Unlucky for him that he had to hand it off to a second office. Unlucky for him this isnt being used in any way, shape, or form by his office. Poor sad, sad Mueller....
After getting a potential 'read it all for free' by the scope and type of raid, and *not* to be able to use it in any form. Let alone know what is there.
Double double sad Mueller....
(04-11-2018 04:05 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: [ -> ] (04-11-2018 03:59 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote: [ -> ]I had not read the specifics of the FBI search of Cohen's records until now.
FFS! Trump is now being investigated for the heinous crime of making vulgar statements?
Witch hunt.
I saw the headline to the article and am interested in what illegal actions could be associated with it. I assume it's not just related to what he said, right?
How can anyone know? What was black letter law is being rewritten on the fly, and being deliberately rendered ambiguous enough to charge anybody with anything - which is the very definition of a witch hunt. Confidentiality agreements and payments are now a crime, somehow. So is "influencing an election".