CSNbbs

(01-15-2023 11:41 AM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-15-2023 11:23 AM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-15-2023 09:03 AM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-15-2023 05:11 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-14-2023 11:56 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]Uhhh.... specifically and categorically incorrect as to the sensitive/ classified documents.

Here I am going to agree with Tanq. If there were classified documents, neither Trump nor anyone else could make or retain copies for personal use.

The POTUS !!IS!! the final authority on classification. He can do what he wants. If he decided the documents were declassified then they are declassified. Simple as that. At that point only the originals are supposed government property. He can copy them at that point and retain them for his personal archives. This has happened with all presidents in modern times. You can see just this type of material at any presidential library.

18 USC 793 would bar the copying. Again, 793 does not require 'classified information' for a violation.

You would be correct for a violation of 798. But 793 is separate and apart from 798.

Does congress control classification or does the executive branch? Can congress make any law to restrict the executive branch’s (the president’s) power to control classification? Can documents be removed from the office of the president and be in possession of an ex-president? Can ex-Presidents possess copied government documents? Should presidential libraries be raided by the FBI? Asking for Spock.

Long and short ---

There is a huge difference between Trump as President and Trump as private citizen.

In order ---

>> Does congress control classification or does the executive branch?

The Atomic Secrets Act takes classification of nuclear secrets out of the President's hands. Otherwise, the President is at the top of the classification chain.

>> Can congress make any law to restrict the executive branch’s (the president’s) power to control classification?

Yes. See above re: Atomic Secrets Act

>> Can documents be removed from the office of the president and be in possession of an ex-president?

While President, the President can move documents (classified, and unclassified but still covered by 793).

Once out of office, the privilege does not 'stay with the guy'. It stays with the Office of United States. In fact, all government documents are the property of the government. Full stop. Only those documents that are purely personal in nature should be possessed and controlled by the ex-President.

The Presidential Records Act clarifies this. In its beginning section, all documents, except purely personal, are owned and controlled by the government. The government may 'lend' those papers to the ex- in transition, but control and possession *must* be by the government at the end.

>> Can ex-Presidents possess copied government documents?

No, they are deemed government records. The PRA sets up a mechanism where the documents are made freely accessible to the ex.

But they are owned by the government.

>> Should presidential libraries be raided by the FBI?

For purely government records, since they are the property of the government, they can control their possession and use. Full stop.

-------------------

The espionage portions of the criminal code add another wrinkle. There are certain actions that no private citizen can take with respect to: a) classified information; or b) sensitive information under 793 without express authorization given at the time of the action. An ex-President is such a private citizen.

That is the rough outline, notwithstanding you puny comment that ends your questions.

(01-15-2023 12:34 PM)Redbanksdog Wrote: [ -> ]President Trump had the power to declassify any documents while in Office isn't that true ?

No problems with that. But that still doesnt remove them from being the basis of a violation of 793. There is no need for a document to be 'classified' in that portion of the statute.

Quote: So why would he take some documents without declassifying them, he had the power,right?

Problem on two fronts.

First, Trump as a private citizen, has no rights to possess *any* government records. The PRA sets up a system where any such records are the property of the government. Full Stop. And, while he can have access to certain government records, they must be turned over to the National Archives.

And, again, even after declassifying them, assuming he did that, he as a private citizen has a problem with keeping sensitive documents under 793. Unless expressly authorized to do so. When he turned into a private citizen, he had no power or no authorization to keep such sensitive documents under 793.

Those 100+ documents are the property of the government. Full stop. If they were not properly declassified, he has a problem with 798 --- the unauthorized possession and storage of classified material. If he did declassify properly, he still is probably in violation of multiple sections of 793 which does not require a classification.

Wash, rinse and repeat for Biden's current issues.

Quote: He had the power, why would anyone question his actions, he was the President of The United States of America. Does anyone besides the POTUS have that power.

His power to possess and control classified information under 798, or sensitive matter under 793, vanished when he stopped being President.

And he fully obstructed the legal attempts by the government to retake possession and control of their own property.

Quote: Some people on this Board act like Trump stole something, when at the time he had that power.

He did steal the items. He took, and continued to control and possess, government documents that he had zero right to have as a private citizen.

Quote: I believe this has something to do with Cross Fire Hurricane and the people behind it want these documents buried for ever.

Maybe it was about the secret nazi/ Venusian base in Antarctica.

In a nutshell, Trump has zero problems with issues happening prior to his leaving office. But as a private citizen, Trump no longer enjoyed the privileges of the Office. They dont pass to the guy -- they stay with the Office.

And no, the defense of he authorized himself prior to leaving office doesnt wash. Case law from the 80's and 90's runs counter to that -- where a person who had the authority to give permission for outside possession to others gave themselves the permission prior to leaving the position and took stuff with them. The Feds ripped that apart and the Circ. Appellate court backed the conviction.

Trump could have pre-pardoned himself -- but there would seemingly have to be some notice of it. But even the pardon cant change the status of the documents.

(01-15-2023 01:08 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-15-2023 12:34 PM)Redbanksdog Wrote: [ -> ]President Trump had the power to declassify any documents while in Office isn't that true ?

So why would he take some documents without declassifying them, he had the power,right?

He had the power, why would anyone question his actions, he was the President of The United States of America. Does anyone besides the POTUS have that power.

Some people on this Board act like Trump stole something, when at the time he had that power.

I believe this has something to do with Cross Fire Hurricane and the people behind it want these documents buried for ever.

Yes..The POTUS has unilateral power of declassification. There is however a process to follow to officially declassify a document after the POTUS declares the document declassified. The agency in custody of the document must date and stamp the document "declassified" before being removed from its custody. I think this is the problem with the Mara Lago documents and the Biden garage documents. Im not aware those documents underwent the final declassification steps although both Trump and Biden had the power to declassify them. Ive not seen any pictures of the Biden documents but we all have seen the Mara Lago documents and I didn't see any
"declassified" stamp on them. I don't think we would be having this conversation if the final step has been done in either case. Is it a technicality? Maybe..but..there is a legitimate reason for the process.

You keep repeating this “process” business. I’ll ask you again, where is this found in the constitution or law the president MUST go through a “process” to declassify? And I will ask you again if Congress has the power to demand through a law that the president adhere to a “process”? Who has the legal right to overturn a presidential decision to declassify a document if it is not “stamped” by some agency that he is the head of? This is baseline to this entire sorry episode in this nation’s history and it should be understood by everyone. I believe it is in no way nuanced. It is black and white.
The FBI-DOJ had to use the “Top Secret, danger to the US” to justify any raid of Trump’s home. This alone explains exactly what it was all about. When in the future if Trump’s copies do not match what the evil syndicate says they got, many will fall right in line. I don’t trust them at all. All the way up to assassination as a last resort to hold on to their power.

(01-15-2023 01:08 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-15-2023 12:34 PM)Redbanksdog Wrote: [ -> ]President Trump had the power to declassify any documents while in Office isn't that true ?

So why would he take some documents without declassifying them, he had the power,right?

He had the power, why would anyone question his actions, he was the President of The United States of America. Does anyone besides the POTUS have that power.

Some people on this Board act like Trump stole something, when at the time he had that power.

I believe this has something to do with Cross Fire Hurricane and the people behind it want these documents buried for ever.

Yes..The POTUS has unilateral power of declassification. There is however a process to follow to officially declassify a document after the POTUS declares the document declassified. The agency in custody of the document must date and stamp the document "declassified" before being removed from its custody. I think this is the problem with the Mara Lago documents and the Biden garage documents. Im not aware those documents underwent the final declassification steps although both Trump and Biden had the power to declassify them. Ive not seen any pictures of the Biden documents but we all have seen the Mara Lago documents and I didn't see any
"declassified" stamp on them. I don't think we would be having this conversation if the final step has been done in either case. Is it a technicality? Maybe..but..there is a legitimate reason for the process.

Do you have a link that says a President has to follow those steps? No, I'm not asking you what some talking head told you to think. If there is a law and that is what we are talking about here....

quote it with the link?

(01-15-2023 01:15 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-15-2023 11:41 AM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-15-2023 11:23 AM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-15-2023 09:03 AM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-15-2023 05:11 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]Here I am going to agree with Tanq. If there were classified documents, neither Trump nor anyone else could make or retain copies for personal use.

The POTUS !!IS!! the final authority on classification. He can do what he wants. If he decided the documents were declassified then they are declassified. Simple as that. At that point only the originals are supposed government property. He can copy them at that point and retain them for his personal archives. This has happened with all presidents in modern times. You can see just this type of material at any presidential library.

18 USC 793 would bar the copying. Again, 793 does not require 'classified information' for a violation.

You would be correct for a violation of 798. But 793 is separate and apart from 798.

Does congress control classification or does the executive branch? Can congress make any law to restrict the executive branch’s (the president’s) power to control classification? Can documents be removed from the office of the president and be in possession of an ex-president? Can ex-Presidents possess copied government documents? Should presidential libraries be raided by the FBI? Asking for Spock.

Long and short ---

There is a huge difference between Trump as President and Trump as private citizen.

In order ---

>> Does congress control classification or does the executive branch?

The Atomic Secrets Act takes classification of nuclear secrets out of the President's hands. Otherwise, the President is at the top of the classification chain.

>> Can congress make any law to restrict the executive branch’s (the president’s) power to control classification?

Yes. See above re: Atomic Secrets Act

>> Can documents be removed from the office of the president and be in possession of an ex-president?

While President, the President can move documents (classified, and unclassified but still covered by 793).

Once out of office, the privilege does not 'stay with the guy'. It stays with the Office of United States. In fact, all government documents are the property of the government. Full stop. Only those documents that are purely personal in nature should be possessed and controlled by the ex-President.

The Presidential Records Act clarifies this. In its beginning section, all documents, except purely personal, are owned and controlled by the government. The government may 'lend' those papers to the ex- in transition, but control and possession *must* be by the government at the end.

>> Can ex-Presidents possess copied government documents?

No, they are deemed government records. The PRA sets up a mechanism where the documents are made freely accessible to the ex.

But they are owned by the government.

>> Should presidential libraries be raided by the FBI?

For purely government records, since they are the property of the government, they can control their possession and use. Full stop.

-------------------

The espionage portions of the criminal code add another wrinkle. There are certain actions that no private citizen can take with respect to: a) classified information; or b) sensitive information under 793 without express authorization given at the time of the action. An ex-President is such a private citizen.

That is the rough outline, notwithstanding you puny comment that ends your questions.

Congress cannot diminish the president’s constitutional powers. They can try all they want but a president could go to the courts. Or ignore them. None yet have seen the need to.
….But…..You did stumble upon a real problem with this shameful episode. The leaking to the public that there were top secret nuclear documents in Trump’s closet that were so important they had to be immediately recovered in a special FBI raid. Where is the evidence of that? No evidence and it has mysteriously vanished into the ether.
Again, I have no doubt if any of this bullchit were true, they would have already frog marched Trump out of ML to a full complement of MSM cameras.

I have mixed emotions in a way. I think the deep state are a bunch of evil bastards, whose constant attacks on Donald Trump for the last six years are banana republic stuff. On the other hand I sort of hope their witch hunts find a witch at some point. The biggest favor that they could do for the USA would be to take Donald Trump out of the presidential mix for 2024. Right now republicans have a Trump problem. They can’t win with him and they can’t win without him. Take him out of the picture and they can stop the socialist/communist democrats in 2024.

(01-15-2023 01:50 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]I have mixed emotions in a way. I think the deep state are a bunch of evil bastards, whose constant attacks on Donald Trump for the last six years are banana republic stuff. On the other hand I sort of hope their witch hunts find a witch at some point. The biggest favor that they could do for the USA would be to take Donald Trump out of the presidential mix for 2024. Right now republicans have a Trump problem. They can’t win with him and they can’t win without him. Take him out of the picture and they can stop the socialist/communist democrats in 2024.

I think Trump is politically finished in reality.
-Unless- These evil bastards have breathed new life into him. They could possibly stir up enough mud to make even you and AM vote for him. Don’t underestimate their ability to f it up.

(01-15-2023 01:50 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]I have mixed emotions in a way. I think the deep state are a bunch of evil bastards, whose constant attacks on Donald Trump for the last six years are banana republic stuff. On the other hand I sort of hope their witch hunts find a witch at some point. The biggest favor that they could do for the USA would be to take Donald Trump out of the presidential mix for 2024. Right now republicans have a Trump problem. They can’t win with him and they can’t win without him. Take him out of the picture and they can stop the socialist/communist democrats in 2024.

neg * neg = pos

varying ways to interpret that equation ...

why not just admit @>270EVs for the blue is now 'fundamentally' baked in ... the next two years will be so much easier to absorb ...

it's time to get back to another posit in this thread ... so many differing fonzies to deal with...,

(01-15-2023 02:13 PM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-15-2023 01:50 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]I have mixed emotions in a way. I think the deep state are a bunch of evil bastards, whose constant attacks on Donald Trump for the last six years are banana republic stuff. On the other hand I sort of hope their witch hunts find a witch at some point. The biggest favor that they could do for the USA would be to take Donald Trump out of the presidential mix for 2024. Right now republicans have a Trump problem. They can’t win with him and they can’t win without him. Take him out of the picture and they can stop the socialist/communist democrats in 2024.

I think Trump is politically finished in reality.
-Unless- These evil bastards have breathed new life into him. They could possibly stir up enough mud to make even you and AM vote for him. Don’t underestimate their ability to f it up.

Oh, if he is the republican nominee I will definitely vote for him. I don’t know if he can win though.

My bigger worry is that he runs third party. He could not win but he would drain off enough votes to hand it to the democrats.

I don’t want any democrat to win any election ever. Their leaders are a bunch of evil bastards, and their followers are useful idiots.

(01-15-2023 01:50 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]I have mixed emotions in a way. I think the deep state are a bunch of evil bastards, whose constant attacks on Donald Trump for the last six years are banana republic stuff. On the other hand I sort of hope their witch hunts find a witch at some point. The biggest favor that they could do for the USA would be to take Donald Trump out of the presidential mix for 2024. Right now republicans have a Trump problem. They can’t win with him and they can’t win without him. Take him out of the picture and they can stop the socialist/communist democrats in 2024.

That battle no the war was lost when the republican of both houses refuse to fight the mail in ballots. You can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe this was a battle Trump was for...

once again the weak knee republicans refused to fight it. Once again it's looking more and more this was something Trump was correct on.

But lets say you are correct at best its a 4 year win because as we seen over and over again republicans have no backbone. They complain when not in power then do nothing when they have complete control....

that just gives it right back to the progressive democrats and pushes us more and more down that road of no return. The days of being a puzzy is over and republicans say they want a fighter. But they really dont because they fight against that at every step and always goes back to puzzy rule.

Most of the things people hate the most about Trump....

isn't Trump its the fact the puzzy republicans would not fight for a President, doing their fighting. They let the MSM and swap say or do what they wanted and even backed them up on a lot of it. What some of you see as a weakness....

I believe most Americans that put Trump in office see as a strength. Not willing to back down from the 24/7 attacks from the swap on both sides. The rest are puzzies just like they want to put in office

I think the problem with republicans in 2020 was that too many of them would rather see Joe Biden as president than Donald Trump as head of the Republican Party.

(01-15-2023 02:26 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]I think the problem with republicans in 2020 was that too many of them would rather see Joe Biden as president than Donald Trump as head of the Republican Party.

Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner. Being in the minority is easy money.

(01-15-2023 01:28 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-15-2023 12:34 PM)Redbanksdog Wrote: [ -> ]President Trump had the power to declassify any documents while in Office isn't that true ?

No problems with that. But that still doesnt remove them from being the basis of a violation of 793. There is no need for a document to be 'classified' in that portion of the statute.

Quote: So why would he take some documents without declassifying them, he had the power,right?

Problem on two fronts.

First, Trump as a private citizen, has no rights to possess *any* government records. The PRA sets up a system where any such records are the property of the government. Full Stop. And, while he can have access to certain government records, they must be turned over to the National Archives.

And, again, even after declassifying them, assuming he did that, he as a private citizen has a problem with keeping sensitive documents under 793. Unless expressly authorized to do so. When he turned into a private citizen, he had no power or no authorization to keep such sensitive documents under 793.

Those 100+ documents are the property of the government. Full stop. If they were not properly declassified, he has a problem with 798 --- the unauthorized possession and storage of classified material. If he did declassify properly, he still is probably in violation of multiple sections of 793 which does not require a classification.

Wash, rinse and repeat for Biden's current issues.

Quote: He had the power, why would anyone question his actions, he was the President of The United States of America. Does anyone besides the POTUS have that power.

His power to possess and control classified information under 798, or sensitive matter under 793, vanished when he stopped being President.

And he fully obstructed the legal attempts by the government to retake possession and control of their own property.

Quote: Some people on this Board act like Trump stole something, when at the time he had that power.

He did steal the items. He took, and continued to control and possess, government documents that he had zero right to have as a private citizen.

Quote: I believe this has something to do with Cross Fire Hurricane and the people behind it want these documents buried for ever.

Maybe it was about the secret nazi/ Venusian base in Antarctica.

In a nutshell, Trump has zero problems with issues happening prior to his leaving office. But as a private citizen, Trump no longer enjoyed the privileges of the Office. They dont pass to the guy -- they stay with the Office.

And no, the defense of he authorized himself prior to leaving office doesnt wash. Case law from the 80's and 90's runs counter to that -- where a person who had the authority to give permission for outside possession to others gave themselves the permission prior to leaving the position and took stuff with them. The Feds ripped that apart and the Circ. Appellate court backed the conviction.

Trump could have pre-pardoned himself -- but there would seemingly have to be some notice of it. But even the pardon cant change the status of the documents.

"His power to possess and control classified information under 798, or sensitive matter under 793, vanished when he stopped being President."

I don't see how the Espionage Act works for you here. The document were declassified so to me that doesn't work. You stated sec: 793 of the Act, Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information. 794. Gathering or delivering defense information to aid foreign government. Was there defense information in those files, I haven't heard of that.

(01-15-2023 11:56 AM)stinkfist Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-15-2023 11:23 AM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-15-2023 09:03 AM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-15-2023 05:11 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-14-2023 11:56 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]Uhhh.... specifically and categorically incorrect as to the sensitive/ classified documents.

Here I am going to agree with Tanq. If there were classified documents, neither Trump nor anyone else could make or retain copies for personal use.

The POTUS !!IS!! the final authority on classification. He can do what he wants. If he decided the documents were declassified then they are declassified. Simple as that. At that point only the originals are supposed government property. He can copy them at that point and retain them for his personal archives. This has happened with all presidents in modern times. You can see just this type of material at any presidential library.

18 USC 793 would bar the copying. Again, 793 does not require 'classified information' for a violation.

You would be correct for a violation of 798. But 793 is separate and apart from 798.

aw shite, let's have some fonzies with 18 USC 793

Quote:(a)Whoever, for the purpose of obtaining information respecting the national defense with intent or reason to believe that the information is to be used to the injury of the United States, or to the advantage of any foreign nation, ...........................................information as to which prohibited place the President has determined would be prejudicial to the national defense; or

(b)Whoever, for the purpose aforesaid, and with like intent or reason to believe, copies, takes, makes, or obtains, or attempts to copy, take, make, or obtain, any sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, document, writing, or note of anything connected with the national defense;

anyone wanna take a stab at what hasn't been released to date ... anyone notice certain 'thingys' ... no hints this time (fk it, ya got a freebie with "released to date")...

fk the rest of the legalese mumbo jumbo ... the above is enough...

the argument is simple ... this should be good...

#muhTurn

since everyone is continually playing dodgeball, let's address the obvious in tang's original posit in 18 USC 793...

1. it's obvious the italicized applies to Biden & son's 'case' based on all the intel the public now knows ... from Burisma --->>> Hunter's laptop --->>> muh 'big guy' --->>> 6 years ... yet, there's zero evidence any of said documents related to defense of the nation in DJT's case ... and why is that ... b/c nothing has been released other than a shiteload of 'muh spin + politics that stir the pot'..

2. to the bold text: if the President has knowledge of all classified docs , does that not indicate sect b) is moot unless conspiracy/treasonous?

regardless, not one fk'n soul knows what's in these docs ... all this bs is nothing more than "ifs" ... there's a reason they'll never release any content in scope in either scenario...

now, I'mma gonna go back to laughing at all this stupid shite...

(01-15-2023 01:50 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]I have mixed emotions in a way. I think the deep state are a bunch of evil bastards, whose constant attacks on Donald Trump for the last six years are banana republic stuff. On the other hand I sort of hope their witch hunts find a witch at some point. The biggest favor that they could do for the USA would be to take Donald Trump out of the presidential mix for 2024. Right now republicans have a Trump problem. They can’t win with him and they can’t win without him. Take him out of the picture and they can stop the socialist/communist democrats in 2024.

That would make us full banana republic. There would be no bigger threat to our country than them succeeding.

(01-15-2023 02:23 PM)WKUYG Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-15-2023 01:50 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]I have mixed emotions in a way. I think the deep state are a bunch of evil bastards, whose constant attacks on Donald Trump for the last six years are banana republic stuff. On the other hand I sort of hope their witch hunts find a witch at some point. The biggest favor that they could do for the USA would be to take Donald Trump out of the presidential mix for 2024. Right now republicans have a Trump problem. They can’t win with him and they can’t win without him. Take him out of the picture and they can stop the socialist/communist democrats in 2024.

That battle no the war was lost when the republican of both houses refuse to fight the mail in ballots. You can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe this was a battle Trump was for...

once again the weak knee republicans refused to fight it. Once again it's looking more and more this was something Trump was correct on.

But lets say you are correct at best its a 4 year win because as we seen over and over again republicans have no backbone. They complain when not in power then do nothing when they have complete control....

that just gives it right back to the progressive democrats and pushes us more and more down that road of no return. The days of being a puzzy is over and republicans say they want a fighter. But they really dont because they fight against that at every step and always goes back to puzzy rule.

Most of the things people hate the most about Trump....

isn't Trump its the fact the puzzy republicans would not fight for a President, doing their fighting. They let the MSM and swap say or do what they wanted and even backed them up on a lot of it. What some of you see as a weakness....

I believe most Americans that put Trump in office see as a strength. Not willing to back down from the 24/7 attacks from the swap on both sides. The rest are puzzies just like they want to put in office

look what he was able to accomplish with a RINO congress that was 'tits'...

it's gotten to point of regurgitated annoyance...

this whole fk'n thingy is tard in scope...

(01-15-2023 02:53 PM)bullet Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-15-2023 01:50 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]I have mixed emotions in a way. I think the deep state are a bunch of evil bastards, whose constant attacks on Donald Trump for the last six years are banana republic stuff. On the other hand I sort of hope their witch hunts find a witch at some point. The biggest favor that they could do for the USA would be to take Donald Trump out of the presidential mix for 2024. Right now republicans have a Trump problem. They can’t win with him and they can’t win without him. Take him out of the picture and they can stop the socialist/communist democrats in 2024.

That would make us full banana republic. There would be no bigger threat to our country than them succeeding.

The problem that I think you are suggesting, and with which I tend to agree, is that Donald Trump may be the only Republican willing to take on the deep state establishment. Somebody on the R side needs to grow a pair before 2024. I have focused on laying out a comprehensive republican policy agenda as a way of inspiring somebody to stand up. That’s the only way I can see it happening, and I’m nowhere near 100% certain that would work. I don’t really see much to choose between democrats driving us off a cliff in a hurry and republicans doing it slower.

(01-15-2023 02:50 PM)Redbanksdog Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-15-2023 01:28 PM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-15-2023 12:34 PM)Redbanksdog Wrote: [ -> ]President Trump had the power to declassify any documents while in Office isn't that true ?

No problems with that. But that still doesnt remove them from being the basis of a violation of 793. There is no need for a document to be 'classified' in that portion of the statute.

Quote: So why would he take some documents without declassifying them, he had the power,right?

Problem on two fronts.

First, Trump as a private citizen, has no rights to possess *any* government records. The PRA sets up a system where any such records are the property of the government. Full Stop. And, while he can have access to certain government records, they must be turned over to the National Archives.

And, again, even after declassifying them, assuming he did that, he as a private citizen has a problem with keeping sensitive documents under 793. Unless expressly authorized to do so. When he turned into a private citizen, he had no power or no authorization to keep such sensitive documents under 793.

Those 100+ documents are the property of the government. Full stop. If they were not properly declassified, he has a problem with 798 --- the unauthorized possession and storage of classified material. If he did declassify properly, he still is probably in violation of multiple sections of 793 which does not require a classification.

Wash, rinse and repeat for Biden's current issues.

Quote: He had the power, why would anyone question his actions, he was the President of The United States of America. Does anyone besides the POTUS have that power.

His power to possess and control classified information under 798, or sensitive matter under 793, vanished when he stopped being President.

And he fully obstructed the legal attempts by the government to retake possession and control of their own property.

Quote: Some people on this Board act like Trump stole something, when at the time he had that power.

He did steal the items. He took, and continued to control and possess, government documents that he had zero right to have as a private citizen.

Quote: I believe this has something to do with Cross Fire Hurricane and the people behind it want these documents buried for ever.

Maybe it was about the secret nazi/ Venusian base in Antarctica.

In a nutshell, Trump has zero problems with issues happening prior to his leaving office. But as a private citizen, Trump no longer enjoyed the privileges of the Office. They dont pass to the guy -- they stay with the Office.

And no, the defense of he authorized himself prior to leaving office doesnt wash. Case law from the 80's and 90's runs counter to that -- where a person who had the authority to give permission for outside possession to others gave themselves the permission prior to leaving the position and took stuff with them. The Feds ripped that apart and the Circ. Appellate court backed the conviction.

Trump could have pre-pardoned himself -- but there would seemingly have to be some notice of it. But even the pardon cant change the status of the documents.

"His power to possess and control classified information under 798, or sensitive matter under 793, vanished when he stopped being President."

I don't see how the Espionage Act works for you here. The document were declassified so to me that doesn't work. You stated sec: 793 of the Act, Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information. 794. Gathering or delivering defense information to aid foreign government. Was there defense information in those files, I haven't heard of that.

As an example, the sections that Comey reviewed for Clinton's server included a 793 analysis.

Given that the Sec. State is nowhere in the line of military command, it seems pretty obvious that at least a decent proportion of the 13 files there fell under the definition of what is covered by 793.

I think the odds are amazingly slim that when you expand the population of documents by a factor of 8-10, *and* increase the seniority of the person, *and* place that person directly in the line of command -- the odds are pretty overwhelming that at least some, if not most of the documents would fall under that category.

In another track -- it seems pretty easy to imagine CIA or other intelligence gathering about foreign governments to be easily put into the arena of 'defense related issues'. Case law provides a pretty view that the term includes a pretty much overarching breadth, one appellate court noting that a jury instruction of "information in the document disclosed might be useful to an enemy of the United States" is sufficient.

When one realizes that some of the documents are SCIF level, it seems rather easy to posit that the documents can pretty easily reveal not just information in the document, but also methods and sources. Such information easily being "information in the document disclosed might be useful to an enemy of the United States."

(01-15-2023 02:51 PM)stinkfist Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-15-2023 11:56 AM)stinkfist Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-15-2023 11:23 AM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-15-2023 09:03 AM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-15-2023 05:11 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]Here I am going to agree with Tanq. If there were classified documents, neither Trump nor anyone else could make or retain copies for personal use.

The POTUS !!IS!! the final authority on classification. He can do what he wants. If he decided the documents were declassified then they are declassified. Simple as that. At that point only the originals are supposed government property. He can copy them at that point and retain them for his personal archives. This has happened with all presidents in modern times. You can see just this type of material at any presidential library.

18 USC 793 would bar the copying. Again, 793 does not require 'classified information' for a violation.

You would be correct for a violation of 798. But 793 is separate and apart from 798.

aw shite, let's have some fonzies with 18 USC 793

Quote:(a)Whoever, for the purpose of obtaining information respecting the national defense with intent or reason to believe that the information is to be used to the injury of the United States, or to the advantage of any foreign nation, ...........................................information as to which prohibited place the President has determined would be prejudicial to the national defense; or

(b)Whoever, for the purpose aforesaid, and with like intent or reason to believe, copies, takes, makes, or obtains, or attempts to copy, take, make, or obtain, any sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, document, writing, or note of anything connected with the national defense;

anyone wanna take a stab at what hasn't been released to date ... anyone notice certain 'thingys' ... no hints this time (fk it, ya got a freebie with "released to date")...

fk the rest of the legalese mumbo jumbo ... the above is enough...

the argument is simple ... this should be good...

#muhTurn

since everyone is continually playing dodgeball, let's address the obvious in tang's original posit in 18 USC 793...

1. it's obvious the italicized applies to Biden & son's 'case' based on all the intel the public now knows ... from Burisma --->>> Hunter's laptop --->>> muh 'big guy' --->>> 6 years ... yet, there's zero evidence any of said documents related to defense of the nation in DJT's case ... and why is that ... b/c nothing has been released other than a shiteload of 'muh spin + politics that stir the pot'..

2. to the bold text: if the President has knowledge of all classified docs , does that not indicate sect b) is moot unless conspiracy/treasonous?

regardless, not one fk'n soul knows what's in these docs ... all this bs is nothing more than "ifs" ... there's a reason they'll never release any content in scope in either scenario...

now, I'mma gonna go back to laughing at all this stupid shite...

Iirc, there are 5 or 6 different offenses in 793.

(01-15-2023 02:51 PM)stinkfist Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-15-2023 11:56 AM)stinkfist Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-15-2023 11:23 AM)tanqtonic Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-15-2023 09:03 AM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-15-2023 05:11 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: [ -> ]Here I am going to agree with Tanq. If there were classified documents, neither Trump nor anyone else could make or retain copies for personal use.

The POTUS !!IS!! the final authority on classification. He can do what he wants. If he decided the documents were declassified then they are declassified. Simple as that. At that point only the originals are supposed government property. He can copy them at that point and retain them for his personal archives. This has happened with all presidents in modern times. You can see just this type of material at any presidential library.

18 USC 793 would bar the copying. Again, 793 does not require 'classified information' for a violation.

You would be correct for a violation of 798. But 793 is separate and apart from 798.

aw shite, let's have some fonzies with 18 USC 793

Quote:(a)Whoever, for the purpose of obtaining information respecting the national defense with intent or reason to believe that the information is to be used to the injury of the United States, or to the advantage of any foreign nation, ...........................................information as to which prohibited place the President has determined would be prejudicial to the national defense; or

(b)Whoever, for the purpose aforesaid, and with like intent or reason to believe, copies, takes, makes, or obtains, or attempts to copy, take, make, or obtain, any sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, document, writing, or note of anything connected with the national defense;

anyone wanna take a stab at what hasn't been released to date ... anyone notice certain 'thingys' ... no hints this time (fk it, ya got a freebie with "released to date")...

fk the rest of the legalese mumbo jumbo ... the above is enough...

the argument is simple ... this should be good...

#muhTurn

since everyone is continually playing dodgeball, let's address the obvious in tang's original posit in 18 USC 793...

1. it's obvious the italicized applies to Biden & son's 'case' based on all the intel the public now knows ... from Burisma --->>> Hunter's laptop --->>> muh 'big guy' --->>> 6 years ... yet, there's zero evidence any of said documents related to defense of the nation in DJT's case ... and why is that ... b/c nothing has been released other than a shiteload of 'muh spin + politics that stir the pot'..

2. to the bold text: if the President has knowledge of all classified docs , does that not indicate sect b) is moot unless conspiracy/treasonous?

regardless, not one fk'n soul knows what's in these docs ... all this bs is nothing more than "ifs" ... there's a reason they'll never release any content in scope in either scenario...

now, I'mma gonna go back to laughing at all this stupid shite...

Yes Sir, its not that hard to understand.