(08-06-2009 04:34 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  Barking up the "all these activists are paid party hacks" tree will not win the health care war for Obama.

Most definitely agree.

Obama seems to be holding out - at least for now - on a bipartisan solution, and I just don't see that happening. So we'll see how it develops into the fall... But ultimately some type of legislation will be passed. The Obama administration has too much riding on this for nothing to happen.

I believe that there has been exactly one effigy, and you appear to have the photo of it. The other two photos are pretty obviously not related to town hall meetings. They are outside, and the people aren't wearing clothes that you would wear in midsummer anywhere in the USA.

What I've seen of the town hall meetings is what's in the video clips, and in those I wouldn't say that I've seen a single political figure try the approach I've recommended. In fact, when the crowds have gotten unruly is when the speakers have insisted on plowing forward with their prepackaged talking points instead of listening to the people.

Let them have their say, let them wear themselves out, take notes and respond--either at the end of the meeting, if there's time, or later by mail or phone or email. In a couple of cases, it has seemed to me that the political figures were going out of their way to p!$$ off the crowd and incite something.

I think that indicates that they really misread the mood of the country. I don't think the Beltway crowd had any idea how p!$$#d off people are outside DC. I think a lot of the conspiracy theory explanations is because they got blindsided, and that's the first explanation that comes to mind. They'll be a lot better off if and when they realize that this stuff is mostly real. I won't deny that some corporate interests stand to gain, and it's reasonable to assume they have done some things to help the process take hold. But I can assure you that it's nuts to assume that the vast majority of this is anything but people who are really genuinely angry. That's what the August recess is supposed to correct.

(08-06-2009 04:37 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(08-06-2009 04:33 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-06-2009 04:15 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  One thing I know - - would be sweet to have August off!

It's actually not all that great. You can't really go places and do thngs. Because anywhere you want to go is likely to be closed because their people are all on vacation. Staggering vacations would actually work better.

Yeah, didn't think of that... I guess most folks over there probably go out of country.
I'd love to have a few weeks off in September, and the $$$ to travel around to some different college football stadiums - and NFL too, for that matter - and just watch football for an entire month. That would be the idea of a perfect vacation in my book.

There are a number of things we would do well to emulate from Europe, and I think vacations is one of them.

I read something a long time ago, don't even remember where or who wrote it, but it contrasted the difference in status symbols between the US and Europe.
In the US, status is your job, how much money you make, how big a house you live in, and what kind of car you drive.
In Europe, status is where did you go on your last vacation, what books have you read lately, what's the last play or concert you've attended, and when did you last bathe (just kidding on the last one).
I think the European approach is healthier.

(08-06-2009 04:45 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I believe that there has been exactly one effigy, and you appear to have the photo of it. The other two photos are pretty obviously not related to town hall meetings. They are outside, and the people aren't wearing clothes that you would wear in midsummer anywhere in the USA.

What I've seen of the town hall meetings is what's in the video clips, and in those I wouldn't say that I've seen a single political figure try the approach I've recommended. In fact, when the crowds have gotten unruly is when the speakers have insisted on plowing forward with their prepackaged talking points instead of listening to the people.

Let them have their say, let them wear themselves out, take notes and respond--either at the end of the meeting, if there's time, or later by mail or phone or email. In a couple of cases, it has seemed to me that the political figures were trying to p!$$ off the crowd and incite something.

I believe the other 2 pics are from Tea Parties.

Fair enough, we'll see how things develop.

My concern is this: there was already a great deal of anger and resentment over Obama and his election by a certain portion of the electorate, and this anger is being stoked and stoked and used by talk-radio and corporate interests. Some of the rhetoric being spewed forth by the likes of Glenn Beck is really ugly.

I just hope that folks get a grip, act in a civil way, and we don't have any violence towards anybody.

(08-06-2009 04:50 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-06-2009 04:37 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(08-06-2009 04:33 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-06-2009 04:15 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  One thing I know - - would be sweet to have August off!

It's actually not all that great. You can't really go places and do thngs. Because anywhere you want to go is likely to be closed because their people are all on vacation. Staggering vacations would actually work better.

Yeah, didn't think of that... I guess most folks over there probably go out of country.
I'd love to have a few weeks off in September, and the $$$ to travel around to some different college football stadiums - and NFL too, for that matter - and just watch football for an entire month. That would be the idea of a perfect vacation in my book.

There are a number of things we would do well to emulate from Europe, and I think vacations is one of them.

I read something a long time ago, don't even remember where or who wrote it, but it contrasted the difference in status symbols between the US and Europe.
In the US, status is your job, how much money you make, how big a house you live in, and what kind of car you drive.
In Europe, status is where did you go on your last vacation, what books have you read lately, what's the last play or concert you've attended, and when did you last bathe (just kidding on the last one).
I think the European approach is healthier.

I'd agree w/ that for sure.

The anger is being "stoked" by the spending in Washington. Talk radio and corporate interests don't have to do anything.

(08-06-2009 04:52 PM)Claw Wrote:  The anger is being "stoked" by the spending in Washington. Talk radio and corporate interests don't have to do anything.

Thats the honest truth.

Here's the thing about the left. When the left had posters of Bush like this, and protested all the damn time, the right didn't try to stop them. Hell, Bush even said it was a great sign of a free country.

Fast forward to today? Different tune. Tell me who the real "fascists" are. It isn't anyone on the right.

(08-06-2009 04:50 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  Fair enough, we'll see how things develop.

My concern is this: there was already a great deal of anger and resentment over Obama and his election by a certain portion of the electorate, and this anger is being stoked and stoked and used by talk-radio and corporate interests. Some of the rhetoric being spewed forth by the likes of Glenn Beck is really ugly.

I just hope that folks get a grip, act in a civil way, and we don't have any violence towards anybody.

I am worried about the civility. I think that's going to be a problem as long as Obama caters to the far left instead of making legitimate attempts to find bipartisan solutions. He doesn't have to, at least not in theory, because he has sufficient numbers in congress to do what he wants without consensus. But I think he is treading a very dangerous path by going that way. He won by a 53-47 marjority. That's 1 in every 32 people chainging his or her mind. That's not enough to assume that you are God.

And no, he has not made legitimate attempts to find bipartisan solutions. Inviting the republican congressional delegation to the white house and telling them, in essence, "I won, so we're doing it my way, we don't care what you think," is not a legitimate attempt to find a bipartisan solution. What has happened on health care so far is not a legitimate attempt to find a bipartisan solution.

At the end of the day, it's only the Blue Dogs that I think have any chance of saving us. And I'd rather it be tem than most anyone else, because they are probably the people that I have most in common with. Socially liberal, pro-gun, fiscal conservatives come pretty close to me.

Kinda hard to be civil when you're rights are being taken away and your money is being stolen.

I don't remember any left wing civility toward Bush or conservatism. It's time the right became fully engaged and give a dose of what is the left's stock and trade.

(08-06-2009 03:53 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-06-2009 03:40 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  Terrific piece by Rachel Maddow about the big GOP $$$ and corporate interests behind all these disruptive town hall meetings, and how they manipulate people with fear, lies and distortions in order to get them to support positions that are beneficial to their bottom line.

Great stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl91YF1d3Kg

"To talk about these town hall events as some organic outpouring of average American folks who have concerns about health care is to be willfully blind as to what is really going on-which is professional P.R. operatives generating exploitive, manufactured, strategically deployed outrage in order to line their own pockets. These P.R. spinmeisters get paid a lot of money for doing it. The corporations they work for get to kill legislation that would hurt their profits.

And the real people who they launch into these town hall settings after they're told that health care reform is a secret commie plot to kill old people and to mandate sex changes-those real people get more and more and more angry, and more and more and more alienated. And ultimately, they get left, like the rest of us, with a health care system that is broken and doesn't work in the interests of the American people, but does work in the interests of the corporations that profit from the way the system is now.

This is professional, corporate-funded, Republican staffed P.R., and it should be reported as such. "

One thing for sure. Rachel Maddow saying it doesn't make it true.

You can pretty much bet if He says it it's not true.

(08-06-2009 03:59 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(08-06-2009 03:54 PM)Rebel Wrote:  BTW, Chattiger had an excellent point about this "so-called" calling by those evil insurance companies:

(08-06-2009 02:54 PM)ChattTiger Wrote:  funny that our resident leftists on here have been accusing the "mobs" to have been organized by the Republican party or the insurance lobby, yet they can't provide any documentation of this. yet the President sends out an e-mail to essentially a nationalized community organizing group to show up and counter the opposition.

Well, I don't know what documentation he's looking for - - they have a website for the specific purpose of getting people to these meetings. One organization is actually bussing people to them.

But the important aspect he is forgetting is that they are 1st getting them riled up with lies, scare tactics and disinformation, and then once they are all in a tizzy, they get them to these meetings to disrupt.

And all driven by corporate interests who care nothing at all about these people, they are only tools for manipulation.

When it comes to conservatives and libertarians, no corporate interest has been abel to work them up into a tizzy before. And they have tried. How did they do it this time? What was differant? Maybe, just maybe PEOPLE ARE PISSED OFF, and they don't need any riling up. I also believe you know this but you are just playing your sides propaganda part in all of this.

(08-06-2009 04:40 PM)Rebel Wrote:  Am I to believe that that WVU bat thinks this is somehow hate?




WTF? Add me to that list. It looks photoshopped but I agree with the words wholeheartedly.

Yes, an obvious photoshop. But so what? I agree too!

Explain something to me.

I was at the April 15 TEA party in the Woodlands and gave them my mail, phone, and email. I did not make the July 4 one because I was in South Africa. I am also a card-carrying, money-giving libertarian and am on their mail, phone, email, and donor lists.

All these big bad insurance companies are sending out all this propaganda to rile people up.

I have not received one thing along the lines of what the democrats are saying has been sent out to rile people. Not one email, not one letter, not one phone call. Zero, zip, nada.

How can that be? I get other stuff from both TEA party and libertarian, so it's not that they don't have me in the system.

Please explain.

I haven't heard one damn thing from the insurance industry and my wife WORKS in the industry. It isn't marching orders, it's battle formations by freedom-loving citizens.

How come the left gave the Daily Kos and George Soros a free pass?

well, it's starting.

http://www.wtsp.com/news/local/story.asp...86&catid=8

http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/ar...025529.ece

**** over your employees don't be surprised when you're ******.

Sorry, I have no problem with it. Time has come.

(08-06-2009 08:26 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  well, it's starting.

http://www.wtsp.com/news/local/story.asp...86&catid=8

http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/ar...025529.ece

From the 2nd link:


"The insurance industry and … Republican activists are manufacturing a lot of these phony protests,'' said Castor.....

They're going to talk themselves into believing people really aren't angry. Maybe they'll believe it in 2010.