(08-06-2009 03:54 PM)Rebel Wrote:  BTW, Chattiger had an excellent point about this "so-called" calling by those evil insurance companies:

(08-06-2009 02:54 PM)ChattTiger Wrote:  funny that our resident leftists on here have been accusing the "mobs" to have been organized by the Republican party or the insurance lobby, yet they can't provide any documentation of this. yet the President sends out an e-mail to essentially a nationalized community organizing group to show up and counter the opposition.

Well, I don't know what documentation he's looking for - - they have a website for the specific purpose of getting people to these meetings. One organization is actually bussing people to them.

But the important aspect he is forgetting is that they are 1st getting them riled up with lies, scare tactics and disinformation, and then once they are all in a tizzy, they get them to these meetings to disrupt.

And all driven by corporate interests who care nothing at all about these people, they are only tools for manipulation.

(08-06-2009 03:55 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(08-06-2009 03:53 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-06-2009 03:40 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  Terrific piece by Rachel Maddow about the big GOP $$$ and corporate interests behind all these disruptive town hall meetings, and how they manipulate people with fear, lies and distortions in order to get them to support positions that are beneficial to their bottom line.

Great stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl91YF1d3Kg

"To talk about these town hall events as some organic outpouring of average American folks who have concerns about health care is to be willfully blind as to what is really going on-which is professional P.R. operatives generating exploitive, manufactured, strategically deployed outrage in order to line their own pockets. These P.R. spinmeisters get paid a lot of money for doing it. The corporations they work for get to kill legislation that would hurt their profits.

And the real people who they launch into these town hall settings after they're told that health care reform is a secret commie plot to kill old people and to mandate sex changes-those real people get more and more and more angry, and more and more and more alienated. And ultimately, they get left, like the rest of us, with a health care system that is broken and doesn't work in the interests of the American people, but does work in the interests of the corporations that profit from the way the system is now.

This is professional, corporate-funded, Republican staffed P.R., and it should be reported as such. "

One thing for sure. Rachel Maddow saying it doesn't make it true.

Did you watch the report? What about it do you suspect is false? She's simply presenting facts.

People post things from far-far-far right sites here and it's taken for gospel. It might be a good idea just to take a look at another point of view, right?

The problem is that I personally know people who went to my local Tea Parties. They aren't paid activists. They aren't donating Republicans. They aren't racists. They don't work in the healthcare industry. They are simply fed up with Washington.

I will be attending a town hall. I'm not getting paid to do so. I'm not getting encourage to do so, and I am not doing so in response to any particular rallying cry. I just want my representative to know that his best shot at my vote involves leaving me the hell alone. Anything beyond that puts his vote in peril.

(08-06-2009 03:55 PM)Claw Wrote:  

(08-06-2009 11:44 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  I decided to take a wait and see approach, so I wold not get drawn into the WVCrazyIdiocy. I see no update to this story, no one has been charged for the "physical assault".

I am beginning to doubt it even happened. The "poll driven" democrats goals are to ignore citizens who want to desperately be heard. By putting forth the image of MOBS at town hall meetings allows the Democrats to further ignore the speech of independently free thinking people. The White House is in full assault mode, marginalizing and dermonizing any critics. Rule #12 is in full swing. These are despicable tactics. The mere claim of any opposition organizing is touted not as grassroots, but Astroturf, another language misnomer, Only Democrats can have grassroot, remember Acorn, George Soros, Media Matters, Huff Post.

The American public is being assaulted, they are the ones being beaten down.

Today's PC Democrats don't know what being physically assaulted is.

Someone ought to get a clip of Dan Rather in Chicago 1968. Geez that was funny. Rather is a pretty big wuss considedring he's from TX.

(08-06-2009 03:57 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

(08-06-2009 03:55 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  She's simply presenting facts.

Um, no. He NEVER presents facts.

Gotcha. What is it in her report that is erroneous?

But then you won't watch because you've already decided, no wonder your viewpoint is so narrow. I listen to right-wing radio all the time. When do you ever get information other than what affirms views you already hold?

(08-06-2009 03:55 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  Did you watch the report? What about it do you suspect is false? She's simply presenting facts.
People post things from far-far-far right sites here and it's taken for gospel. It might be a good idea just to take a look at another point of view, right?

Yes, I watched the video. Twice. I found it to be very long on innuendo and very short on facts.

I find the same from most far-right sites as well. Both sides of this debate (and make no mistake about it, Maddow is an extreme partisan on the far left edge of this and most other issues) seem more interested in the shrill and sensational than on actually finding a solution to what is a real problem.

I know what I would like to see--a French-style insurance-based hybrid system, with minimal government involvement. I simply cannot imagine any way that the current process could ever lead us there.

If Pelosi, Reid, McConnell, Boehner, and a few of their respective henchmen would take this recess month to hop on whatever they have in the stable until those $67 million private jets are delivered, and fly to France and see what they have and how it works, I expect they would all come home thinking that they have seen a much better system than anything we have or anything anyone has placed on the table thus far. But of course, they're not going to do that. Maddow and Olbermann on the left, and Rush and Hannity on the right, would probably crucify them if they did. Of course, since France takes August off, they might have to wait until September to see things in actual operation. But that'd be okay too.

(08-06-2009 03:59 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  But the important aspect he is forgetting is that they are 1st getting them riled up with lies, scare tactics and disinformation,

According to who? You? You're gonna sit there and tell them that you and the goons in D.C. know what's better for these people than they do?

Quote:and then once they are all in a tizzy, they get them to these meetings to disrupt.

...and you want that stopped, right? Probably by force? Maybe round up the dissidents?

By the way,

WHERE WERE YOU GDAMN GOONS DURING THE LAST FUCKIN 8 YEARS!!!!? WHERE YOU FOR THE AMNESTY PROTESTS? CODE PINK? CONSERVATIVES GETTING PIES THROWN AT THEM?


Kindly **** off and die, all of you goons.

(08-06-2009 04:08 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-06-2009 03:55 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  Did you watch the report? What about it do you suspect is false? She's simply presenting facts.
People post things from far-far-far right sites here and it's taken for gospel. It might be a good idea just to take a look at another point of view, right?

Yes, I watched the video. Twice. I found it to be very long on innuendo and very short on facts.

I find the same from most far-right sites as well. Both sides of this debate (and make no mistake about it, Maddow is an extreme partisan on the far left edge of this and most other issues) seem more interested in the shrill and sensational than on actually finding a solution to what is a real problem.

I know what I would like to see--a French-style insurance-based hybrid system, with minimal government involvement. I simply cannot imagine any way that the current process could ever lead us there.

If Pelosi, Reid, McConnell, Boehner, and a few of their respective henchmen would take this recess month to hop on whatever they have in the stable until those $67 million private jets are delivered, and fly to France and see what they have and how it works, I expect they would all come home thinking that they have seen a much better system than anything we have or anything anyone has placed on the table thus far. But of course, they're not going to do that. Maddow and Olbermann on the left, and Rush and Hannity on the right, would probably crucify them if they did. Of course, since France takes August off, they might have to wait until September to see things in actual operation. But that'd be okay too.

I'm not really familiar w/ how the French system works - I'll definitely read more about it.

One thing I know - - would be sweet to have August off!

About the video... ya know I'm actually really surprised by people who are so anti-government completely dismissing and swallowing whole the lies of people working for and funded by the health care industry. Folks are hesitant to accept anything at all that comes out of the administration but somehow think these massive corporations are looking out for their best interests? They're so insistent on not being led by the nose by Government that they completely ignore the string pulling them around by the big corporations. These companies know that many people are going to be predisposed to mistrust anything that comes out of the Obama administration and they are using that to their advantage.

Back to that issue of trust again!

(08-06-2009 04:13 PM)Rebel Wrote:  ...and you want that stopped, right? Probably by force? Maybe round up the dissidents?

hmm... yeah... that's it. You read my mind. Ship them to Syria, or better yet Gitmo.

(08-06-2009 04:00 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(08-06-2009 03:57 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

(08-06-2009 03:55 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  She's simply presenting facts.

Um, no. He NEVER presents facts.

Gotcha. What is it in her report that is erroneous?
But then you won't watch because you've already decided, no wonder your viewpoint is so narrow. I listen to right-wing radio all the time. When do you ever get information other than what affirms views you already hold?

What's erroneous is that she takes a few facts and stretches them to conclusions that those facts don't warrant. For example, there is a website sponsored by conservative organizations that lists the town halls to be conducted. So what? There's probably one prepared by ACORN that does the same thing. That doesn't mean, either way, that the people speaking aren't real folks who are genuinely concerned.

They are not all reading the same talking points from the same script (though I would expect if these things continue that we'll see some of the better one-liners repeated). The swastikas and effigies that Pelosi says are everywhere aren't. They are loud and boisterous, and not always polite, but there isn't much to support the allegations that physical violence is being attempted, or even threatened. To reach the conclusion that this is nothing but a corporate-manipulated charade from the thin facts on offer is way overreaching. There isn't enough evidence in favor, and there is too much evidence (which she doesn't even consider) to the contrary.

If I were a democrat holding a town hall, I'd say something like this, "Look, I know you aren't interested in having me read you a bunch of talking points, so I'm not going to do that. I want to know what you really think, what your concerns are. So I'm going to make you a deal. I'll stay here and listen to what you have to say as long as you want me to, I'll so my best to answer any questions you have and if I don't have the answer tonight I'll try to get back to you, and I'll consider everything you say when I go back to Washington; in return I am going to expect you to be polite and respectful of me and of each other. If yo'ure willing to proceed on that basis, then tell me what's on your mind."

I think one of the real problems here is that the democrats have been ordered to go out and sell the talking points, so they start out trying to do that instead of listening. If they tried listening first and talking later, I think these things would be going very differently. Of course, I don't think Obama wants that, because if the congressmen actually listen to their constituents he may lose his rubber-stamp rump legislature.

(08-06-2009 03:59 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(08-06-2009 03:54 PM)Rebel Wrote:  BTW, Chattiger had an excellent point about this "so-called" calling by those evil insurance companies:

(08-06-2009 02:54 PM)ChattTiger Wrote:  funny that our resident leftists on here have been accusing the "mobs" to have been organized by the Republican party or the insurance lobby, yet they can't provide any documentation of this. yet the President sends out an e-mail to essentially a nationalized community organizing group to show up and counter the opposition.

Well, I don't know what documentation he's looking for - - they have a website for the specific purpose of getting people to these meetings. One organization is actually bussing people to them.

But the important aspect he is forgetting is that they are 1st getting them riled up with lies, scare tactics and disinformation, and then once they are all in a tizzy, they get them to these meetings to disrupt.

And all driven by corporate interests who care nothing at all about these people, they are only tools for manipulation.

You are referring to the Acorn rallies, no doubt. Only those are the poor ignorant people with tattered clothing that Boxer referred to.

(08-06-2009 04:15 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  About the video... ya know I'm actually really surprised by people who are so anti-government completely dismissing and swallowing whole the lies of people working for and funded by the health care industry. Folks are hesitant to accept anything at all that comes out of the administration but somehow think these massive corporations are looking out for their best interests? They're so insistent on not being led by the nose by Government that they completely ignore the string pulling them around by the big corporations. These companies know that many people are going to be predisposed to mistrust anything that comes out of the Obama administration and they are using that to their advantage.
Back to that issue of trust again!

Yep.

One thing I have never understood about liberals is why they are so distrustful of private enterprises, large or small, at the same time they are so trusting of government.

I see absolutely no reason to trust a politician or government agency or bureaucrat one iota more than I trust a businessman or corporation or employee.

There was a time when I thought differently. But after 40 years of working with government agencies at all levels--local, state, federal, and even international--what I see is that for every unethincal money-grubbing person I find in private industry, there's at least one unethical power-grubbing person in some government agency. Both can screw me, but the government guy can screw me worse because he can do one thing the corporate guy never can--he can find a way to trump up something and put me in jail if he wants to.

To me the best answer is to give government as little power as possible while forcing the private sector guy to compete with as many others as possible. Any concentration of power is harmful, so keep it all as un-concentrated as possible.

The worst answer is anything that allows both political and economic power to concentrate in the same place. Whether that is back-room deals by lobbyists or turning over more and more of the economy to government organizations, all you're going to do in the end is give power to folks who are determined to use it to screw other folks.

Neither government nor the private sector is immune. So the best thing we can do is keep them as far apart as possible.

(08-06-2009 04:20 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  There's probably one prepared by ACORN that does the same thing. That doesn't mean, either way, that the people speaking aren't real folks who are genuinely concerned.

They can do better than that. They have Obama's White House website calling for volunteers to go to these events and commit to at least one.

(08-06-2009 04:15 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  One thing I know - - would be sweet to have August off!

It's actually not all that great. You can't really go places and do thngs. Because anywhere you want to go is likely to be closed because their people are all on vacation. Staggering vacations would actually work better.

Our French subsidiary--in fact all our European subsidiaries--did not even close their books at the end of August. There simply wasn't enough activity to go to the trouble. So September was essentially an eight-week work month for accounting purposes.

(08-06-2009 04:20 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  They are loud and boisterous, and not always polite, but there isn't much to support the allegations that physical violence is being attempted, or even threatened.

(08-06-2009 04:20 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  If I were a democrat holding a town hall, I'd say something like this, "Look, I know you aren't interested in having me read you a bunch of talking points, so I'm not going to do that. I want to know what you really think, what your concerns are. So I'm going to make you a deal. I'll stay here and listen to what you have to say as long as you want me to, I'll so my best to answer any questions you have and if I don't have the answer tonight I'll try to get back to you, and I'll consider everything you say when I go back to Washington; in return I am going to expect you to be polite and respectful of me and of each other. If yo'ure willing to proceed on that basis, then tell me what's on your mind."

I agree, and I suspect that's what they've been trying to do. The problem is that the people being disruptive are not interested in listening, or in discussing - they are interested in challenging, disrupting, and preventing others from being heard.

I posted before the talking points passed around by one of the main Tea Party founders giving suggestions on the best way to approach and disrupt these events.

Now, obviously not everybody falls into that category, but even those who don't are being fed lies from the health care lobby.

Barking up the "all these activists are paid party hacks" tree will not win the health care war for Obama.

Complaining of a small number of certain astroturfed events / attendees does not displace the reality that there are a lot of honest, concerned citizens attending these events.

(08-06-2009 04:33 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-06-2009 04:15 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  One thing I know - - would be sweet to have August off!

It's actually not all that great. You can't really go places and do thngs. Because anywhere you want to go is likely to be closed because their people are all on vacation. Staggering vacations would actually work better.

Yeah, didn't think of that... I guess most folks over there probably go out of country.

I'd love to have a few weeks off in September, and the $$$ to travel around to some different college football stadiums - and NFL too, for that matter - and just watch football for an entire month. That would be the idea of a perfect vacation in my book.

Am I to believe that that WVU bat thinks this is somehow hate?




WTF? Add me to that list. It looks photoshopped but I agree with the words wholeheartedly.

People so weak that they're willing to buy into letting the government take over most of the responsibility in their lives, like Mach, WVU, RobertN, etc., are the same type of weak-minded people that have allowed the ascension of tyrants like Pol Pot, Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, Chavez, and Castro.

(08-06-2009 04:33 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  are being fed lies from the health care lobby.

Get theFuck Off it already. This has been debunked as false.

These are real people angry and desperate to be heard. Their Representatives are not representing them and these people are letting them know about it. Repeating it over and over does not make it true. Throw those talking points away. The real people know that those allegations are being used to silence them.