All of this “why?” bullchit is ridiculous. Tyrants gonna tyrant. That’s all you need to know. Well except for the other fact that they don’t stop till they are room temperature.

(06-02-2022 02:48 PM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 02:40 PM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  You know exactly what I meant.

If the Ukrainians were to shoot into Russia with their own weapons, that is one thing. If they fire into Russia with weapons WE provided because their own weapons are incapable of it, then the unpredictable Putin has reason to accuse us of escalation and he is correct.

Again, I'm not FOR one side or the other in this war. There are no good guys here and it should not be OUR issue, one way or the other. But Biden's administration is full of war hawks desperate to take Putin down a notch regardless of the risks.

I’m tired of hearing the “there are no good guys here” sentiment. There are thousands of mostly poor people being torn apart by Russian artillery. Why? Because they are bad people? Russia started this action of genocide. They are clearly the bad guys.

And most of them are Russian speakers, even if a majority are ethnically Ukrainian.

(06-02-2022 02:48 PM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 02:40 PM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  You know exactly what I meant.

If the Ukrainians were to shoot into Russia with their own weapons, that is one thing. If they fire into Russia with weapons WE provided because their own weapons are incapable of it, then the unpredictable Putin has reason to accuse us of escalation and he is correct.

Again, I'm not FOR one side or the other in this war. There are no good guys here and it should not be OUR issue, one way or the other. But Biden's administration is full of war hawks desperate to take Putin down a notch regardless of the risks.

I’m tired of hearing the “there are no good guys here” sentiment. There are thousands of mostly poor people being torn apart by Russian artillery. Why? Because they are bad people? Russia started this action of genocide. They are clearly the bad guys.

no good governments, of course the people are victims

(06-02-2022 09:31 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 07:04 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 06:38 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 06:17 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 05:58 PM)bullet Wrote:  Neville;
He's made it clear he wants to rebuild the Soviet empire. That includes several NATO countries. There is no doubt Moldova is 2nd if they conquer Ukraine.

Then its NATO countries-Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, Czech Republic and Bulgaria.

Where did he make it clear? Hes made it clear he doesnt want a nato country on his doorstep. Hes made it clear that he wants parts of historic russia in russia. Ive never seen where he mad it clear he wants to rebuild the soviet union

And yet, invading Ukraine got him a NATO country on his doorstep (Finland).


And here's a news flash: both Poland and Finland are "part of historic Russia" by almost any definition. Both were part of Russia for over 100 years between the Napoleonic Wars and World War 1.

Thats not a news flash. The region is ethnically and linguistically complicated. Ukraine is a split. Oversimplification of thr situation makes it easier to understand but not rooted in reality.

Poles in poland. Finns in finland. Rus in Riussia. The ukraine is a mix. Weve discussed it.

No good guys here

Even the Donbass is 60% Ukrainian and the whole country is 78% Ukrainian. By contrast, Russia is only 81% Russian, Belarus is 85% Belarussian, Poland is 98% Polish. So if Ukraine is mixed, Russia is mixed.

Again, you have been a sucker for Russian propaganda.

i am a sucker for no propaganda. Ukranian is a relatively new thing in and of itself.

You better check who is the sucker.

August 24, 1991
Ukraine's Independence Day

fly your ukraine flag though, we paid 50 billion for it.

(06-02-2022 04:32 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-02-2022 09:31 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 07:04 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 06:38 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 06:17 PM)shere khan Wrote:  Where did he make it clear? Hes made it clear he doesnt want a nato country on his doorstep. Hes made it clear that he wants parts of historic russia in russia. Ive never seen where he mad it clear he wants to rebuild the soviet union

And yet, invading Ukraine got him a NATO country on his doorstep (Finland).


And here's a news flash: both Poland and Finland are "part of historic Russia" by almost any definition. Both were part of Russia for over 100 years between the Napoleonic Wars and World War 1.

Thats not a news flash. The region is ethnically and linguistically complicated. Ukraine is a split. Oversimplification of thr situation makes it easier to understand but not rooted in reality.

Poles in poland. Finns in finland. Rus in Riussia. The ukraine is a mix. Weve discussed it.

No good guys here

Even the Donbass is 60% Ukrainian and the whole country is 78% Ukrainian. By contrast, Russia is only 81% Russian, Belarus is 85% Belarussian, Poland is 98% Polish. So if Ukraine is mixed, Russia is mixed.

Again, you have been a sucker for Russian propaganda.

i am a sucker for no propaganda. Ukranian is a relatively new thing in and of itself.

You better check who is the sucker.

August 24, 1991
Ukraine's Independence Day

fly your ukraine flag though, we paid 50 billion for it.

Now if you made the argument about our strategic interests or the cost, you could be taken more seriously. That would be a Rand Paul argument.

Instead, you just keep repeating Russian talking points, just as the Dems who doggedly still believe the Russia collusion hoax or the Charlotte all good people hoax, etc.

(06-02-2022 04:43 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-02-2022 04:32 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-02-2022 09:31 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 07:04 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 06:38 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  And yet, invading Ukraine got him a NATO country on his doorstep (Finland).


And here's a news flash: both Poland and Finland are "part of historic Russia" by almost any definition. Both were part of Russia for over 100 years between the Napoleonic Wars and World War 1.

Thats not a news flash. The region is ethnically and linguistically complicated. Ukraine is a split. Oversimplification of thr situation makes it easier to understand but not rooted in reality.

Poles in poland. Finns in finland. Rus in Riussia. The ukraine is a mix. Weve discussed it.

No good guys here

Even the Donbass is 60% Ukrainian and the whole country is 78% Ukrainian. By contrast, Russia is only 81% Russian, Belarus is 85% Belarussian, Poland is 98% Polish. So if Ukraine is mixed, Russia is mixed.

Again, you have been a sucker for Russian propaganda.

i am a sucker for no propaganda. Ukranian is a relatively new thing in and of itself.

You better check who is the sucker.

August 24, 1991
Ukraine's Independence Day

fly your ukraine flag though, we paid 50 billion for it.

Now if you made the argument about our strategic interests or the cost, you could be taken more seriously. That would be a Rand Paul argument.

Instead, you just keep repeating Russian talking points, just as the Dems who doggedly still believe the Russia collusion hoax or the Charlotte all good people hoax, etc.

you got me. im a russian sympathizer. 50 billion for a soros puppet that led his country into a deadly war.

idgaf if you take me serious. you will tell me i was right.

its total bullshite and zelensky is a stooge. its just the middle east but colder.

its a waste of our damn time to be involved unless we are going to conquer both of them.

ffs the whole region has been a damn mess for 1000 years.

(06-02-2022 04:55 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-02-2022 04:43 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-02-2022 04:32 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-02-2022 09:31 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 07:04 PM)shere khan Wrote:  Thats not a news flash. The region is ethnically and linguistically complicated. Ukraine is a split. Oversimplification of thr situation makes it easier to understand but not rooted in reality.

Poles in poland. Finns in finland. Rus in Riussia. The ukraine is a mix. Weve discussed it.

No good guys here

Even the Donbass is 60% Ukrainian and the whole country is 78% Ukrainian. By contrast, Russia is only 81% Russian, Belarus is 85% Belarussian, Poland is 98% Polish. So if Ukraine is mixed, Russia is mixed.

Again, you have been a sucker for Russian propaganda.

i am a sucker for no propaganda. Ukranian is a relatively new thing in and of itself.

You better check who is the sucker.

August 24, 1991
Ukraine's Independence Day

fly your ukraine flag though, we paid 50 billion for it.

Now if you made the argument about our strategic interests or the cost, you could be taken more seriously. That would be a Rand Paul argument.

Instead, you just keep repeating Russian talking points, just as the Dems who doggedly still believe the Russia collusion hoax or the Charlotte all good people hoax, etc.

you got me. im a russian sympathizer. 50 billion for a soros puppet that led his country into a deadly war.

idgaf if you take me serious. you will tell me i was right.

its total bullshite and zelensky is a stooge. its just the middle east but colder.

its a waste of our damn time to be involved unless we are going to conquer both of them.

ffs the whole region has been a damn mess for 1000 years.

A stooge would have taken Biden’s plane to Paris with a hundred million dollars. A stooge does not visit his troops on the front lines while shelling is taking place within earshot.

You seem to have Todar’s ideas about who started this war. How stupid is that? Yeah, Ukraine started a war everyone said they couldn’t win with Russia so they could be bashed into oblivion by Russian artillery and missiles just to get American money. Sounds plausible…..

The Russians are in such a bind they are raising their ‘contract’ age of potential cannon fodder soldiers to the ripe old age of 50.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61607184

And some who have been pulled off the front lines are refusing to go back.

""...I had thought that we were the Russian army, the most super-duper in the world," says the young man bitterly. Instead they were expected to operate without even basic equipment, such as night vision devices, he says.

"We were like blind kittens. I'm shocked by our army. It wouldn't cost much to equip us. Why wasn't it done?"

Sergey joined the army as a conscript - most Russian men between the ages of 18-27 must complete one year of compulsory military service. But, after a few months, he made the decision to sign a two-year professional contract which would also give him a salary.

In January, Sergey was sent near the border with Ukraine for what he was told would be military drills. A month later - 24 February, the day Russia launched its invasion - he was told to cross the border. Almost immediately his unit found itself under attack.

As they stopped for the evening in an abandoned farm, their commander said: "Well, as you will have worked out by now, this is not a joke."

Sergey says he was completely shocked.

"My first thoughts were 'Is this really happening to me?'"

They were continually shelled, he says, both when moving and when parked overnight. In his unit of 50 people, 10 were killed and 10 others wounded. Almost all his comrades were under the age of 25.

He heard of Russian servicemen so inexperienced that they "did not know how to shoot and couldn't tell one end of a mortar from another".

He says his convoy - travelling through northern Ukraine - broke up after just four days when a bridge they were about to cross exploded, killing comrades ahead of them...."

(06-02-2022 07:53 PM)bullet Wrote:  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61607184

And some who have been pulled off the front lines are refusing to go back.

""...I had thought that we were the Russian army, the most super-duper in the world," says the young man bitterly. Instead they were expected to operate without even basic equipment, such as night vision devices, he says.

"We were like blind kittens. I'm shocked by our army. It wouldn't cost much to equip us. Why wasn't it done?"

Sergey joined the army as a conscript - most Russian men between the ages of 18-27 must complete one year of compulsory military service. But, after a few months, he made the decision to sign a two-year professional contract which would also give him a salary.

In January, Sergey was sent near the border with Ukraine for what he was told would be military drills. A month later - 24 February, the day Russia launched its invasion - he was told to cross the border. Almost immediately his unit found itself under attack.

As they stopped for the evening in an abandoned farm, their commander said: "Well, as you will have worked out by now, this is not a joke."

Sergey says he was completely shocked.

"My first thoughts were 'Is this really happening to me?'"

They were continually shelled, he says, both when moving and when parked overnight. In his unit of 50 people, 10 were killed and 10 others wounded. Almost all his comrades were under the age of 25.

He heard of Russian servicemen so inexperienced that they "did not know how to shoot and couldn't tell one end of a mortar from another".

He says his convoy - travelling through northern Ukraine - broke up after just four days when a bridge they were about to cross exploded, killing comrades ahead of them...."

That bbc stuff is straight up propaganda. Blind Kittens. Gtfoh


And somehow:

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said Ukraine is losing between 60 and 100 service members daily as fighting in the Donbas intensifies.

"The most difficult situation is in the east of Ukraine and southern Donetsk and Luhansk," he said in a late-night interview with Newsmax Tuesday.

"The situation is very difficult," he continued. "We're losing 60-100 soldiers per day as killed in action and something around 500 people as wounded in action."

https://www.foxnews.com/world/russia-zel...bers-daily

Russian forces are currently occupying about 20% of Ukraine’s territory, president Volodymyr Zelenskiy said in a video address to the Luxembourg parliament. The front lines of battle stretch across more than 1,000km (620 miles), the Ukrainian president said, adding that 100 Ukrainians are dying on a daily basis in eastern Ukraine, and another 450-500 people are wounded.

___________

Keep sending money and weapons.

If this is winning id hate to see losing

(06-02-2022 08:20 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-02-2022 07:53 PM)bullet Wrote:  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61607184

And some who have been pulled off the front lines are refusing to go back.

""...I had thought that we were the Russian army, the most super-duper in the world," says the young man bitterly. Instead they were expected to operate without even basic equipment, such as night vision devices, he says.

"We were like blind kittens. I'm shocked by our army. It wouldn't cost much to equip us. Why wasn't it done?"

Sergey joined the army as a conscript - most Russian men between the ages of 18-27 must complete one year of compulsory military service. But, after a few months, he made the decision to sign a two-year professional contract which would also give him a salary.

In January, Sergey was sent near the border with Ukraine for what he was told would be military drills. A month later - 24 February, the day Russia launched its invasion - he was told to cross the border. Almost immediately his unit found itself under attack.

As they stopped for the evening in an abandoned farm, their commander said: "Well, as you will have worked out by now, this is not a joke."

Sergey says he was completely shocked.

"My first thoughts were 'Is this really happening to me?'"

They were continually shelled, he says, both when moving and when parked overnight. In his unit of 50 people, 10 were killed and 10 others wounded. Almost all his comrades were under the age of 25.

He heard of Russian servicemen so inexperienced that they "did not know how to shoot and couldn't tell one end of a mortar from another".

He says his convoy - travelling through northern Ukraine - broke up after just four days when a bridge they were about to cross exploded, killing comrades ahead of them...."

That bbc stuff is straight up propaganda. Blind Kittens. Gtfoh


And somehow:

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said Ukraine is losing between 60 and 100 service members daily as fighting in the Donbas intensifies.

"The most difficult situation is in the east of Ukraine and southern Donetsk and Luhansk," he said in a late-night interview with Newsmax Tuesday.

"The situation is very difficult," he continued. "We're losing 60-100 soldiers per day as killed in action and something around 500 people as wounded in action."

https://www.foxnews.com/world/russia-zel...bers-daily

Russian forces are currently occupying about 20% of Ukraine’s territory, president Volodymyr Zelenskiy said in a video address to the Luxembourg parliament. The front lines of battle stretch across more than 1,000km (620 miles), the Ukrainian president said, adding that 100 Ukrainians are dying on a daily basis in eastern Ukraine, and another 450-500 people are wounded.

___________

Keep sending money and weapons.

If this is winning id hate to see losing

Full disclosure - I think the U.S. has zero strategic reason for being there and I loathe seeing out money and munitions sent to blackhole.

That said, I don't think the Russian army is a competent fighting machine. It shouldn't be dragging out like it is given the strength of Russia compared to Ukraine, and Russia should have air superiority and should be able to fly anywhere in that country without any opposition in the skies - yet they don't. I think Zelensky is crying poor mouth and overstating Ukraine's difficulties to a certain extent with the hopes of goading NATO into attacking Russia directly. I also think Russia's army isn't a pack of defenseless kittens either like the BBC portrays.

(06-02-2022 04:43 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-02-2022 04:32 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-02-2022 09:31 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 07:04 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 06:38 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  And yet, invading Ukraine got him a NATO country on his doorstep (Finland).


And here's a news flash: both Poland and Finland are "part of historic Russia" by almost any definition. Both were part of Russia for over 100 years between the Napoleonic Wars and World War 1.

Thats not a news flash. The region is ethnically and linguistically complicated. Ukraine is a split. Oversimplification of thr situation makes it easier to understand but not rooted in reality.

Poles in poland. Finns in finland. Rus in Riussia. The ukraine is a mix. Weve discussed it.

No good guys here

Even the Donbass is 60% Ukrainian and the whole country is 78% Ukrainian. By contrast, Russia is only 81% Russian, Belarus is 85% Belarussian, Poland is 98% Polish. So if Ukraine is mixed, Russia is mixed.

Again, you have been a sucker for Russian propaganda.

i am a sucker for no propaganda. Ukranian is a relatively new thing in and of itself.

You better check who is the sucker.

August 24, 1991
Ukraine's Independence Day

fly your ukraine flag though, we paid 50 billion for it.

Now if you made the argument about our strategic interests or the cost, you could be taken more seriously. That would be a Rand Paul argument.

Instead, you just keep repeating Russian talking points, just as the Dems who doggedly still believe the Russia collusion hoax or the Charlotte all good people hoax, etc.

Yep.

You know what other countries are brand new? The Chech Republic, Slovakia, Croatia, Serbia, Moldova.

India was a brand new country in 1947.

Ireland was a brand new country in 1922 (no Irish ruler ever ruled over the majority of the island as a unified state, and even the high kings of Ireland (who never actually exercised control) had disappeared over 1000 years ago).

Finland was a brand new country in 1917.


No one seriously doubts that any of those countries have their own independent languages and culture. No one doubts that they deserve to exist.

The same will happen with with Greenland or Puerto Rico or Scotland, if they ever become independent for 30 years. After a country breaks up, you lose all right to reunite it by force.


Literally the only difference here is that Russia regrets the breakup of the Soviet Union and is trying to put it back together.

(06-02-2022 09:09 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(06-02-2022 08:20 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-02-2022 07:53 PM)bullet Wrote:  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61607184

And some who have been pulled off the front lines are refusing to go back.

""...I had thought that we were the Russian army, the most super-duper in the world," says the young man bitterly. Instead they were expected to operate without even basic equipment, such as night vision devices, he says.

"We were like blind kittens. I'm shocked by our army. It wouldn't cost much to equip us. Why wasn't it done?"

Sergey joined the army as a conscript - most Russian men between the ages of 18-27 must complete one year of compulsory military service. But, after a few months, he made the decision to sign a two-year professional contract which would also give him a salary.

In January, Sergey was sent near the border with Ukraine for what he was told would be military drills. A month later - 24 February, the day Russia launched its invasion - he was told to cross the border. Almost immediately his unit found itself under attack.

As they stopped for the evening in an abandoned farm, their commander said: "Well, as you will have worked out by now, this is not a joke."

Sergey says he was completely shocked.

"My first thoughts were 'Is this really happening to me?'"

They were continually shelled, he says, both when moving and when parked overnight. In his unit of 50 people, 10 were killed and 10 others wounded. Almost all his comrades were under the age of 25.

He heard of Russian servicemen so inexperienced that they "did not know how to shoot and couldn't tell one end of a mortar from another".

He says his convoy - travelling through northern Ukraine - broke up after just four days when a bridge they were about to cross exploded, killing comrades ahead of them...."

That bbc stuff is straight up propaganda. Blind Kittens. Gtfoh


And somehow:

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said Ukraine is losing between 60 and 100 service members daily as fighting in the Donbas intensifies.

"The most difficult situation is in the east of Ukraine and southern Donetsk and Luhansk," he said in a late-night interview with Newsmax Tuesday.

"The situation is very difficult," he continued. "We're losing 60-100 soldiers per day as killed in action and something around 500 people as wounded in action."

https://www.foxnews.com/world/russia-zel...bers-daily

Russian forces are currently occupying about 20% of Ukraine’s territory, president Volodymyr Zelenskiy said in a video address to the Luxembourg parliament. The front lines of battle stretch across more than 1,000km (620 miles), the Ukrainian president said, adding that 100 Ukrainians are dying on a daily basis in eastern Ukraine, and another 450-500 people are wounded.

___________

Keep sending money and weapons.

If this is winning id hate to see losing

Full disclosure - I think the U.S. has zero strategic reason for being there and I loathe seeing out money and munitions sent to blackhole.

That said, I don't think the Russian army is a competent fighting machine. It shouldn't be dragging out like it is given the strength of Russia compared to Ukraine, and Russia should have air superiority and should be able to fly anywhere in that country without any opposition in the skies - yet they don't. I think Zelensky is crying poor mouth and overstating Ukraine's difficulties to a certain extent with the hopes of goading NATO into attacking Russia directly. I also think Russia's army isn't a pack of defenseless kittens either like the BBC portrays.

Russia is not the big modern high tech army we thought it was. The part that is modern is not big, and the part that is big is not modern. Doesnt mean its not capable given the right situation. Its got a crap load of artillery and armor. It may not be elegant or efficient----but the Russian army is moving forward by leaning heavily on that artillery advantage---but the losses are adding up for the Russians.


For Ukraine, I dont think Zelensky is poor mouthing. They will never be able to match the Russian artillery in numbers. They need to be able to out range them---and where they cant---they need to be nimble and accurate. Thats why he wants the the NATO 155's and the longer range MLRS's that hit targets accurately 50 miles away. With drones, counter battery radar, and on the ground intelligence from behind the lines sources----they can offset much of that Russian artillery advantage if they can out range Russian artillery. They can also use those weapons to disrupt supply lines in the Russian rear. Keep in mind, the Ukrainian goal is not to just slow the advance in the east---they are looking to get enough of those long range systems to allow them to halt the Russians and then to go on offense. They want to recapture as much of that 20% Russia is occupying as possible. If they can do some of that---for the first time---you might see some real Russian action at the negotiating table.

(06-02-2022 11:37 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(06-02-2022 09:09 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(06-02-2022 08:20 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-02-2022 07:53 PM)bullet Wrote:  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61607184

And some who have been pulled off the front lines are refusing to go back.

""...I had thought that we were the Russian army, the most super-duper in the world," says the young man bitterly. Instead they were expected to operate without even basic equipment, such as night vision devices, he says.

"We were like blind kittens. I'm shocked by our army. It wouldn't cost much to equip us. Why wasn't it done?"

Sergey joined the army as a conscript - most Russian men between the ages of 18-27 must complete one year of compulsory military service. But, after a few months, he made the decision to sign a two-year professional contract which would also give him a salary.

In January, Sergey was sent near the border with Ukraine for what he was told would be military drills. A month later - 24 February, the day Russia launched its invasion - he was told to cross the border. Almost immediately his unit found itself under attack.

As they stopped for the evening in an abandoned farm, their commander said: "Well, as you will have worked out by now, this is not a joke."

Sergey says he was completely shocked.

"My first thoughts were 'Is this really happening to me?'"

They were continually shelled, he says, both when moving and when parked overnight. In his unit of 50 people, 10 were killed and 10 others wounded. Almost all his comrades were under the age of 25.

He heard of Russian servicemen so inexperienced that they "did not know how to shoot and couldn't tell one end of a mortar from another".

He says his convoy - travelling through northern Ukraine - broke up after just four days when a bridge they were about to cross exploded, killing comrades ahead of them...."

That bbc stuff is straight up propaganda. Blind Kittens. Gtfoh


And somehow:

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said Ukraine is losing between 60 and 100 service members daily as fighting in the Donbas intensifies.

"The most difficult situation is in the east of Ukraine and southern Donetsk and Luhansk," he said in a late-night interview with Newsmax Tuesday.

"The situation is very difficult," he continued. "We're losing 60-100 soldiers per day as killed in action and something around 500 people as wounded in action."

https://www.foxnews.com/world/russia-zel...bers-daily

Russian forces are currently occupying about 20% of Ukraine’s territory, president Volodymyr Zelenskiy said in a video address to the Luxembourg parliament. The front lines of battle stretch across more than 1,000km (620 miles), the Ukrainian president said, adding that 100 Ukrainians are dying on a daily basis in eastern Ukraine, and another 450-500 people are wounded.

___________

Keep sending money and weapons.

If this is winning id hate to see losing

Full disclosure - I think the U.S. has zero strategic reason for being there and I loathe seeing out money and munitions sent to blackhole.

That said, I don't think the Russian army is a competent fighting machine. It shouldn't be dragging out like it is given the strength of Russia compared to Ukraine, and Russia should have air superiority and should be able to fly anywhere in that country without any opposition in the skies - yet they don't. I think Zelensky is crying poor mouth and overstating Ukraine's difficulties to a certain extent with the hopes of goading NATO into attacking Russia directly. I also think Russia's army isn't a pack of defenseless kittens either like the BBC portrays.

Russia is not the big modern high tech army we thought it was. The part that is modern is not big, and the part that is big is not modern. Doesnt mean its not capable given the right situation. Its got a crap load of artillery and armor. It may not be elegant or efficient----but the Russian army is moving forward by leaning heavily on that artillery advantage---but the losses are adding up for the Russians.


For Ukraine, I dont think Zelensky is poor mouthing. They will never be able to match the Russian artillery in numbers. They need to be able to out range them---and where they cant---they need to be nimble and accurate. Thats why he wants the the NATO 155's and the longer range MLRS's that hit targets accurately 50 miles away. With drones, counter battery radar, and on the ground intelligence from behind the lines sources----they can offset much of that Russian artillery advantage if they can out range Russian artillery. They can also use those weapons to disrupt supply lines in the Russian rear. Keep in mind, the Ukrainian goal is not to just slow the advance in the east---they are looking to get enough of those long range systems to allow them to halt the Russians and then to go on offense. They want to recapture as much of that 20% Russia is occupying as possible. If they can do some of that---for the first time---you might see some real Russian action at the negotiating table.

And they have already driven them out of substantial territory in the last month and a half. Russia occupied more of Ukraine in the first few weeks of the war than they do now.

So is Shere going to be like the Russian bots and claim Kiev and Cherniv and Sumy were just feints?

The Russian soldier clearly realized it was for real and badly done.

(06-03-2022 01:29 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-02-2022 11:37 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(06-02-2022 09:09 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(06-02-2022 08:20 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-02-2022 07:53 PM)bullet Wrote:  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61607184

And some who have been pulled off the front lines are refusing to go back.

""...I had thought that we were the Russian army, the most super-duper in the world," says the young man bitterly. Instead they were expected to operate without even basic equipment, such as night vision devices, he says.

"We were like blind kittens. I'm shocked by our army. It wouldn't cost much to equip us. Why wasn't it done?"

Sergey joined the army as a conscript - most Russian men between the ages of 18-27 must complete one year of compulsory military service. But, after a few months, he made the decision to sign a two-year professional contract which would also give him a salary.

In January, Sergey was sent near the border with Ukraine for what he was told would be military drills. A month later - 24 February, the day Russia launched its invasion - he was told to cross the border. Almost immediately his unit found itself under attack.

As they stopped for the evening in an abandoned farm, their commander said: "Well, as you will have worked out by now, this is not a joke."

Sergey says he was completely shocked.

"My first thoughts were 'Is this really happening to me?'"

They were continually shelled, he says, both when moving and when parked overnight. In his unit of 50 people, 10 were killed and 10 others wounded. Almost all his comrades were under the age of 25.

He heard of Russian servicemen so inexperienced that they "did not know how to shoot and couldn't tell one end of a mortar from another".

He says his convoy - travelling through northern Ukraine - broke up after just four days when a bridge they were about to cross exploded, killing comrades ahead of them...."

That bbc stuff is straight up propaganda. Blind Kittens. Gtfoh


And somehow:

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said Ukraine is losing between 60 and 100 service members daily as fighting in the Donbas intensifies.

"The most difficult situation is in the east of Ukraine and southern Donetsk and Luhansk," he said in a late-night interview with Newsmax Tuesday.

"The situation is very difficult," he continued. "We're losing 60-100 soldiers per day as killed in action and something around 500 people as wounded in action."

https://www.foxnews.com/world/russia-zel...bers-daily

Russian forces are currently occupying about 20% of Ukraine’s territory, president Volodymyr Zelenskiy said in a video address to the Luxembourg parliament. The front lines of battle stretch across more than 1,000km (620 miles), the Ukrainian president said, adding that 100 Ukrainians are dying on a daily basis in eastern Ukraine, and another 450-500 people are wounded.

___________

Keep sending money and weapons.

If this is winning id hate to see losing

Full disclosure - I think the U.S. has zero strategic reason for being there and I loathe seeing out money and munitions sent to blackhole.

That said, I don't think the Russian army is a competent fighting machine. It shouldn't be dragging out like it is given the strength of Russia compared to Ukraine, and Russia should have air superiority and should be able to fly anywhere in that country without any opposition in the skies - yet they don't. I think Zelensky is crying poor mouth and overstating Ukraine's difficulties to a certain extent with the hopes of goading NATO into attacking Russia directly. I also think Russia's army isn't a pack of defenseless kittens either like the BBC portrays.

Russia is not the big modern high tech army we thought it was. The part that is modern is not big, and the part that is big is not modern. Doesnt mean its not capable given the right situation. Its got a crap load of artillery and armor. It may not be elegant or efficient----but the Russian army is moving forward by leaning heavily on that artillery advantage---but the losses are adding up for the Russians.


For Ukraine, I dont think Zelensky is poor mouthing. They will never be able to match the Russian artillery in numbers. They need to be able to out range them---and where they cant---they need to be nimble and accurate. Thats why he wants the the NATO 155's and the longer range MLRS's that hit targets accurately 50 miles away. With drones, counter battery radar, and on the ground intelligence from behind the lines sources----they can offset much of that Russian artillery advantage if they can out range Russian artillery. They can also use those weapons to disrupt supply lines in the Russian rear. Keep in mind, the Ukrainian goal is not to just slow the advance in the east---they are looking to get enough of those long range systems to allow them to halt the Russians and then to go on offense. They want to recapture as much of that 20% Russia is occupying as possible. If they can do some of that---for the first time---you might see some real Russian action at the negotiating table.

And they have already driven them out of substantial territory in the last month and a half. Russia occupied more of Ukraine in the first few weeks of the war than they do now.

So is Shere going to be like the Russian bots and claim Kiev and Cherniv and Sumy were just feints?

The Russian soldier clearly realized it was for real and badly done.

That right there should just about tell you how bad you are suckered in on this

(06-03-2022 06:09 AM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-03-2022 01:29 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-02-2022 11:37 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(06-02-2022 09:09 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(06-02-2022 08:20 PM)shere khan Wrote:  That bbc stuff is straight up propaganda. Blind Kittens. Gtfoh


And somehow:

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said Ukraine is losing between 60 and 100 service members daily as fighting in the Donbas intensifies.

"The most difficult situation is in the east of Ukraine and southern Donetsk and Luhansk," he said in a late-night interview with Newsmax Tuesday.

"The situation is very difficult," he continued. "We're losing 60-100 soldiers per day as killed in action and something around 500 people as wounded in action."

https://www.foxnews.com/world/russia-zel...bers-daily

Russian forces are currently occupying about 20% of Ukraine’s territory, president Volodymyr Zelenskiy said in a video address to the Luxembourg parliament. The front lines of battle stretch across more than 1,000km (620 miles), the Ukrainian president said, adding that 100 Ukrainians are dying on a daily basis in eastern Ukraine, and another 450-500 people are wounded.

___________

Keep sending money and weapons.

If this is winning id hate to see losing

Full disclosure - I think the U.S. has zero strategic reason for being there and I loathe seeing out money and munitions sent to blackhole.

That said, I don't think the Russian army is a competent fighting machine. It shouldn't be dragging out like it is given the strength of Russia compared to Ukraine, and Russia should have air superiority and should be able to fly anywhere in that country without any opposition in the skies - yet they don't. I think Zelensky is crying poor mouth and overstating Ukraine's difficulties to a certain extent with the hopes of goading NATO into attacking Russia directly. I also think Russia's army isn't a pack of defenseless kittens either like the BBC portrays.

Russia is not the big modern high tech army we thought it was. The part that is modern is not big, and the part that is big is not modern. Doesnt mean its not capable given the right situation. Its got a crap load of artillery and armor. It may not be elegant or efficient----but the Russian army is moving forward by leaning heavily on that artillery advantage---but the losses are adding up for the Russians.


For Ukraine, I dont think Zelensky is poor mouthing. They will never be able to match the Russian artillery in numbers. They need to be able to out range them---and where they cant---they need to be nimble and accurate. Thats why he wants the the NATO 155's and the longer range MLRS's that hit targets accurately 50 miles away. With drones, counter battery radar, and on the ground intelligence from behind the lines sources----they can offset much of that Russian artillery advantage if they can out range Russian artillery. They can also use those weapons to disrupt supply lines in the Russian rear. Keep in mind, the Ukrainian goal is not to just slow the advance in the east---they are looking to get enough of those long range systems to allow them to halt the Russians and then to go on offense. They want to recapture as much of that 20% Russia is occupying as possible. If they can do some of that---for the first time---you might see some real Russian action at the negotiating table.

And they have already driven them out of substantial territory in the last month and a half. Russia occupied more of Ukraine in the first few weeks of the war than they do now.

So is Shere going to be like the Russian bots and claim Kiev and Cherniv and Sumy were just feints?

The Russian soldier clearly realized it was for real and badly done.

That right there should just about tell you how bad you are suckered in on this

That there is doubt in my mind tells me how often you repeat Putin's talking points. And how you rejecct obvious evidence. Its like Tom, "oh its Fox News."

Fact is, Russians have been pushed back in the last couple months far more than they have gained. They've run out of steam. Their forces are depleted. Their goals keep getting smaller. Doesn't mean that can't change, but there's no sign of quit in the Ukrainians. The Russian soldiers are starting to get red pilled.

Bullet sounds a lot like a Ukrainian refugee.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-61656289 BBC reporter stationed in Russia:

"The last one hundred days have not only devastated Ukraine. They have changed Russia.

This feels like a different country. Gone are the independent news outlets I used to read, watch and listen to; either blocked or shut down.

Gone are many of the western shops and cafes that once filled the shopping centres here. Hundreds of international companies have pulled out of Russia in protest at the invasion.

One thing there’s plenty of is propaganda.

From morning to night, Russian state TV assures viewers that what Russian troops are doing in Ukraine is necessary, unavoidable - and not a war. The Kremlin’s still sticking to its claim that this is a limited 'military operation', designed to fight Nazis, ultra-nationalists and bring peace and liberation to Ukraine.

Bombarded with doublethink, you begin to feel you're a character in George Orwell’s 1984.

The Russian economy hasn't collapsed under the pressure of sanctions. But the world’s largest country is now unable to import many of the goods it once did, including High tech items like semi-conductors. The EU's oil embargo is expected to cost Moscow billions of dollars in lost export revenue.

Russians are bracing for tough times ahead."

(06-03-2022 11:04 AM)bullet Wrote:  https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-61656289 BBC reporter stationed in Russia:

"The last one hundred days have not only devastated Ukraine. They have changed Russia.

This feels like a different country. Gone are the independent news outlets I used to read, watch and listen to; either blocked or shut down.

Gone are many of the western shops and cafes that once filled the shopping centres here. Hundreds of international companies have pulled out of Russia in protest at the invasion.

One thing there’s plenty of is propaganda.

From morning to night, Russian state TV assures viewers that what Russian troops are doing in Ukraine is necessary, unavoidable - and not a war. The Kremlin’s still sticking to its claim that this is a limited 'military operation', designed to fight Nazis, ultra-nationalists and bring peace and liberation to Ukraine.

Bombarded with doublethink, you begin to feel you're a character in George Orwell’s 1984.

The Russian economy hasn't collapsed under the pressure of sanctions. But the world’s largest country is now unable to import many of the goods it once did, including High tech items like semi-conductors. The EU's oil embargo is expected to cost Moscow billions of dollars in lost export revenue.

Russians are bracing for tough times ahead."

I would sacrifice Ukraine if it ultimately resulted in Russia being an ally to fight Chinese aggression, technology theft and generally trying to destabilize the world. Given the proximity, Russia would be on the front line directly against China.

CHINA is the real threat.

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/05/2...war-a77769
Russia preparing for the long haul, opening anti-NATO museums.
"At one of Moscow’s newest museum exhibitions, visitors are greeted with posters describing how “NATO is fraught with war" and images of people injured in U.S. bombings as the sound of approaching war planes wails from loudspeakers.

“NATO: A chronicle of cruelty” opened its doors in Moscow's Museum of Contemporary Russian History last month, a few weeks after Russia attacked Ukraine....

“This exact exhibition will soon be opened in every region of the Russian Federation,” said one official at an opening ceremony earlier this month in the city of Veliky Novgorod, 190 kilometers south of St. Petersburg.

In Moscow, displays include “trophies” that Russian soldiers have brought back from Ukraine since the Kremlin launched its invasion in late February.

At the exhibition’s center is a display containing a Ukrainian bulletproof vest, a Ukrainian military uniform and a Ukrainian insignia badge, which are described as “unique exhibits" provided by the Russian Defense Ministry....

One topic stressed throughout the exhibition was NATO’s apparent long-term plans to use Ukraine as a staging ground for an attack on Russia. ..."