(05-22-2022 04:52 PM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  

So---is it a surrender or an evacuation? Yes? Niether?

What happened is kind of a partial surrender. The majority of the garrison basically surrendered---but apparently not all of the soldiers there gave up. Some opted to fight to the end---so Im guessing that was part of the reason it was couched in those terms. The Ukrainian leadership basically ordered an end to resistance in Mariupol in an effort to save more of the defending soldiers---but some were simply unwilling to surrender to what they felt would be certain torture and death as a Russian captive. Having seen up close how the Russians were treating civilians and captured soldiers---I can see why some might prefer to die quickly in battle rather than being tortured and shot by the craven and undisciplined Russian "army". That said---those that left the steel plant were clearly surrendering.

In biggest victory yet, Russia claims to capture Mariupol
There was no immediate confirmation from Ukraine.

Quote:Russia’s state news agency RIA Novosti quoted the ministry as saying a total of 2,439 Ukrainian fighters who had been holed up at the steelworks had surrendered since Monday, including over 500 on Friday.

As they surrendered, the troops were taken prisoner by the Russians, and at least some were taken to a former penal colony. Others were said to be hospitalized.

The defense of the steel mill had been led by Ukraine’s Azov Regiment, whose far-right origins have been seized on by the Kremlin as part of an effort to cast its invasion as a battle against Nazi influence in Ukraine. Russia said the Azov commander was taken away from the plant in an armored vehicle.

Russian authorities have threatened to investigate some of the steel mill’s defenders for war crimes and put them on trial, branding them “Nazis” and criminals. That has stirred international fears about their fate.

The steelworks, which sprawled across 4 square miles, had been the site of fierce fighting for weeks. The dwindling group of outgunned fighters had held out, drawing Russian airstrikes, artillery and tank fire, before their government ordered them to abandon the plant’s defense and save themselves.

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/05/21...l-00034233

Russia has given up on capturing Ukraine cities. They are simply destroying them.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61634050

"Russian forces have entered the city of Severodonetsk, as they continue their attempts to capture the eastern Donbas region of Ukraine. One of the region's governors says that the bombardment of the industrial centre is so intense that they have given up counting the casualties.

Serhiy Gaidai, the governor of Luhansk, now says that all critical infrastructure in Severodonetsk has been destroyed. Previously, he suggested that Ukrainian forces may have to withdraw from the city and Lysychansk.

The scene of devastation in a third city, Rubizhne - in peacetime just a short drive to the north - shows what Russia's unrelenting artillery fire is capable of. Looking from Lysychansk into the distance, there is now a blot on the emerald green landscape. The small city is gone - scoured from the earth.

The way it fell some two weeks ago, marks an important shift in how Vladimir Putin's forces are now fighting the war. Gone are long armoured columns and tank and infantry attacks seen in the first months, in favour of large-scale artillery barrages - as many as 1500 shells a day in Rubizhne - to wipe out resistance before any ground advance....

Vladimir Putin gambled big - and lost - on taking all of Ukraine, so perhaps that explains the enormous resources he is throwing at achieving a tactical win in Donbas. But a Kremlin victory here won't mean defeat for Ukraine.

I ask the unnamed guardsman, tired after months of battle, but still here at front, what it will take to win?

"There is a sky, and the sky is ours. Drones are helping a lot. Weapons have arrived and multiple rocket launchers. America, lend-lease…" he tells me. "The only question is time. It's time and that's it. And then everything will be Ukraine.""

(05-30-2022 01:39 PM)bullet Wrote:  Russia has given up on capturing Ukraine cities. They are simply destroying them.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61634050

"Russian forces have entered the city of Severodonetsk, as they continue their attempts to capture the eastern Donbas region of Ukraine. One of the region's governors says that the bombardment of the industrial centre is so intense that they have given up counting the casualties.

Serhiy Gaidai, the governor of Luhansk, now says that all critical infrastructure in Severodonetsk has been destroyed. Previously, he suggested that Ukrainian forces may have to withdraw from the city and Lysychansk.

The scene of devastation in a third city, Rubizhne - in peacetime just a short drive to the north - shows what Russia's unrelenting artillery fire is capable of. Looking from Lysychansk into the distance, there is now a blot on the emerald green landscape. The small city is gone - scoured from the earth.

The way it fell some two weeks ago, marks an important shift in how Vladimir Putin's forces are now fighting the war. Gone are long armoured columns and tank and infantry attacks seen in the first months, in favour of large-scale artillery barrages - as many as 1500 shells a day in Rubizhne - to wipe out resistance before any ground advance....

Vladimir Putin gambled big - and lost - on taking all of Ukraine, so perhaps that explains the enormous resources he is throwing at achieving a tactical win in Donbas. But a Kremlin victory here won't mean defeat for Ukraine.

I ask the unnamed guardsman, tired after months of battle, but still here at front, what it will take to win?

"There is a sky, and the sky is ours. Drones are helping a lot. Weapons have arrived and multiple rocket launchers. America, lend-lease…" he tells me. "The only question is time. It's time and that's it. And then everything will be Ukraine.""

This is one reason Ukraine is desperate to get long range weapons. They need not only weapons capable of taking out the artillery doing the bombardment---but they need the ability to hit Russian infrastructure in Russia. If they have the ability to degrade Russia's manufacturing, transportation, and oil infrastructure---the Russian scorched earth strategy begins to have a cost at home....unless Russia is willing to accept the "in kind" degrading of their own infrastructure (which would frankly be just fine with the west if they are).

The best way for the west to do this is to not send them any long range Western weapons. Instead----simply make it easy for Ukraine to start building lots of their own domestically produced Neptune missiles. Its very easy to adapt that Neptune cruise missile platform to a longer range land attack cruise missile (it was already in the works when the war began). If Ukraine is manufacturing 20-25 Neptune missiles a week with a range of 300 or 400 miles---suddenly a long grinding war with Ukraine will look much less attractive to the Russian leadership. Not much the Russians can say if they are being pounded by Ukrainian made weapons.

Russia isnt going to fire a nuke for many reasons---but if Ukraine has a bunch of accurate long range cruise missiles---the Russian nuke threat is done. Ukraine may not have a nuke----but there are a crap load of Russian nuclear reactors within 400 miles of Ukraine. A cruise missile tearing the top off a nuclear plant like a can opener would be every bit as damaging long term to Russia as a tactical nuke hitting Ukraine.

Sounds like Ukraine is getting the 50 mile range version of the M142 Multiple Launch Rocket System from the US. This is a pretty accurate effective rocket artillery system and will be capable of out-ranging the vast majority of Russia's Soviet era artillery systems that Ukraine is facing. With a 50 mile range, it should be capable of reeking some havoc in Russia's rear logistics supply chain. The Germans are also sending modern IRIS-T mid-range anti-aircraft systems capable of city defense. Thats a huge move. It can hit targets 25 miles away that are as much as 12 miles high. It is a modern NATO missile system designed to take out cruise missiles, anti-radar missiles, helicopters, fighters, bombers, guided bombs, and rockets.

Nice escalation.

Way to go Brandon. Obvious they want to get us into a shooting war. Proxy wars aren't good enough.

(06-01-2022 02:02 PM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  Nice escalation.

Way to go Brandon. Obvious they want to get us into a shooting war. Proxy wars aren't good enough.

lol. Escalate? Talk about empty threats. How's escalating make sense? They can barely handle the Ukrainians armed with a handful of short range weapons. Frankly, "escalation" is how the Russians got themselves into this current mess.

Right now Russia can pummel Ukraine's infrastructure with little danger of any Ukrainian retaliation on Russian soil. These tactical systems do not change that strategic landscape---but further Russian escalation might convince NATO to send longer range combat systems capable of retaliatory strikes. I dont think Moscow wants that---so--other than gripe---Russia will do nothing--mainly because they dont really have any better option.

You know exactly what I meant.

If the Ukrainians were to shoot into Russia with their own weapons, that is one thing. If they fire into Russia with weapons WE provided because their own weapons are incapable of it, then the unpredictable Putin has reason to accuse us of escalation and he is correct.

Again, I'm not FOR one side or the other in this war. There are no good guys here and it should not be OUR issue, one way or the other. But Biden's administration is full of war hawks desperate to take Putin down a notch regardless of the risks.

(06-01-2022 02:40 PM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  You know exactly what I meant.

If the Ukrainians were to shoot into Russia with their own weapons, that is one thing. If they fire into Russia with weapons WE provided because their own weapons are incapable of it, then the unpredictable Putin has reason to accuse us of escalation and he is correct.

Again, I'm not FOR one side or the other in this war. There are no good guys here and it should not be OUR issue, one way or the other. But Biden's administration is full of war hawks desperate to take Putin down a notch regardless of the risks.

Again---what if they do use them to attack a few miles inside Russia? Thats how war works. Putin can either deal with it---or escalate. If he escalates he will escalate himself right into a NATO war where he would be facing even more of the EXACT same weapons (not to mention all the other far more destructive longer range weapons in the NATO inventory) that he's whining about now.

Even using a nuke on Ukraine is not viable. As Ive mentioned before---those little Ukrainian attacks in Russia are not just for grins. They have a purpose. Ukraine is showing Putin that it has has the ability to attack a nuclear reactor inside Russia as a retaliatory response if Russia goes nuclear. Thats basically a poor mans tactical nuke.

So you see---there are no real good escalation options for Putin----His only options are plodding onward with a grinding war of attrition or opening legit peace talks. Unfortunately, there will be no peace talks until he has some sort of success that allows him to claim "mission accomplished". And eventually----when that peace finally does come---(dont say I didnt warn you)---its going to cost the US more than the war did. We will end up having to militarily guarantee Ukraine's territorial integrity.

I am for Ukraine---but only because we are in NATO. If the US had no NATO entanglement---Id be ok with sitting this one out (even though I think Russia is out of line here--there would be no strategic US interest). If you want to get us out of NATO---thats a talk Im willing to have---but until we exit that alliance---its simply inaccurate to pretend like the US has no strategic concerns regarding the outcome of this Russian/Ukrainian war. Putin has already said the other ex-Warsaw Pact NATO members are "next up" on his his list---so avoiding that next stage of Putins plan is what Ukraine is all about.

(06-01-2022 02:54 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 02:40 PM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  You know exactly what I meant.

If the Ukrainians were to shoot into Russia with their own weapons, that is one thing. If they fire into Russia with weapons WE provided because their own weapons are incapable of it, then the unpredictable Putin has reason to accuse us of escalation and he is correct.

Again, I'm not FOR one side or the other in this war. There are no good guys here and it should not be OUR issue, one way or the other. But Biden's administration is full of war hawks desperate to take Putin down a notch regardless of the risks.

Again---what if they do use them to attack a few miles inside Russia? Thats how war works. Putin can either deal with it---or escalate. If he escalates he will escalate himself right into a NATO war where he would be facing even more of the EXACT same weapons (not to mention all the other far more destructive longer range weapons in the NATO inventory) that he's whining about now.

Even using a nuke on Ukraine is not viable. As Ive mentioned before---those little Ukrainian attacks in Russia are not just for grins. They have a purpose. Ukraine is showing Putin that it has has the ability to attack a nuclear reactor inside Russia as a retaliatory response if Russia goes nuclear. Thats basically a poor mans tactical nuke.

So you see---there are no real option for Putin other than plodding onward with a grinding war of attrition or opening legit peace talks. Unfortunately, there will be no peace talks until he has some sort of success that allows him to claim "mission accomplished". And eventually----when that peace finally does come---(dont say I didnt warn you)---its going to cost the US more than the war did. We will end up having to militarily guarantee Ukraine's territorial integrity.

Really. Putin is just FOS. He's the only one escalating things. And he's already done anything he can do but nuke Ukraine. He's frustrated because he thought it would be easy and Europe and Ukraine would roll over for him.

I get it that you consider yourself the best military analyst on the board. Nobody is to have a contrary opinion. I don't really care what your background is. I'm speaking for myself but I do know many others that feel we should have stayed out of this, even if they are sympathetic to the people of Ukraine.

What if Putin IS really a bit crazy or is dying? Are you going to bet he won't use a nuke on somebody? You gonna gamble with that?

If NATO gets into a shooting war with Russia, that is primarily the USA. So, to me, not much difference. We have no business being involved in this.

I'd prefer that we don't provoke him. We've already spent billions on this foolish endeavor. We will spend billions more to replace the arms we have sent, even if some were near the end of their useful life. Enough already.

(06-01-2022 03:11 PM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  I get it that you consider yourself the best military analyst on the board. Nobody is to have a contrary opinion. I don't really care what your background is. I'm speaking for myself but I do know many others that feel we should have stayed out of this, even if they are sympathetic to the people of Ukraine.

What if Putin IS really a bit crazy or is dying? Are you going to bet he won't use a nuke on somebody? You gonna gamble with that?

If NATO gets into a shooting war with Russia, that is primarily the USA. So, to me, not much difference. We have no business being involved in this.

I'd prefer that we don't provoke him. We've already spent billions on this foolish endeavor. We will spend billions more to replace the arms we have sent, even if some were near the end of their useful life. Enough already.

Neville;
He's made it clear he wants to rebuild the Soviet empire. That includes several NATO countries. There is no doubt Moldova is 2nd if they conquer Ukraine.

Then its NATO countries-Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, Czech Republic and Bulgaria.

(06-01-2022 05:58 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 03:11 PM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  I get it that you consider yourself the best military analyst on the board. Nobody is to have a contrary opinion. I don't really care what your background is. I'm speaking for myself but I do know many others that feel we should have stayed out of this, even if they are sympathetic to the people of Ukraine.

What if Putin IS really a bit crazy or is dying? Are you going to bet he won't use a nuke on somebody? You gonna gamble with that?

If NATO gets into a shooting war with Russia, that is primarily the USA. So, to me, not much difference. We have no business being involved in this.

I'd prefer that we don't provoke him. We've already spent billions on this foolish endeavor. We will spend billions more to replace the arms we have sent, even if some were near the end of their useful life. Enough already.

Neville;
He's made it clear he wants to rebuild the Soviet empire. That includes several NATO countries. There is no doubt Moldova is 2nd if they conquer Ukraine.

Then its NATO countries-Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, Czech Republic and Bulgaria.

Where did he make it clear? Hes made it clear he doesnt want a nato country on his doorstep. Hes made it clear that he wants parts of historic russia in russia. Ive never seen where he mad it clear he wants to rebuild the soviet union

(06-01-2022 06:17 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 05:58 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 03:11 PM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  I get it that you consider yourself the best military analyst on the board. Nobody is to have a contrary opinion. I don't really care what your background is. I'm speaking for myself but I do know many others that feel we should have stayed out of this, even if they are sympathetic to the people of Ukraine.

What if Putin IS really a bit crazy or is dying? Are you going to bet he won't use a nuke on somebody? You gonna gamble with that?

If NATO gets into a shooting war with Russia, that is primarily the USA. So, to me, not much difference. We have no business being involved in this.

I'd prefer that we don't provoke him. We've already spent billions on this foolish endeavor. We will spend billions more to replace the arms we have sent, even if some were near the end of their useful life. Enough already.

Neville;
He's made it clear he wants to rebuild the Soviet empire. That includes several NATO countries. There is no doubt Moldova is 2nd if they conquer Ukraine.

Then its NATO countries-Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, Czech Republic and Bulgaria.

Where did he make it clear? Hes made it clear he doesnt want a nato country on his doorstep. Hes made it clear that he wants parts of historic russia in russia. Ive never seen where he mad it clear he wants to rebuild the soviet union

Yes. He's talked about the fall of the Soviet Union as a great tragedy. He wants all the European republics back. He wants Poland as a vassal state.

(06-01-2022 06:17 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 05:58 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 03:11 PM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  I get it that you consider yourself the best military analyst on the board. Nobody is to have a contrary opinion. I don't really care what your background is. I'm speaking for myself but I do know many others that feel we should have stayed out of this, even if they are sympathetic to the people of Ukraine.

What if Putin IS really a bit crazy or is dying? Are you going to bet he won't use a nuke on somebody? You gonna gamble with that?

If NATO gets into a shooting war with Russia, that is primarily the USA. So, to me, not much difference. We have no business being involved in this.

I'd prefer that we don't provoke him. We've already spent billions on this foolish endeavor. We will spend billions more to replace the arms we have sent, even if some were near the end of their useful life. Enough already.

Neville;
He's made it clear he wants to rebuild the Soviet empire. That includes several NATO countries. There is no doubt Moldova is 2nd if they conquer Ukraine.

Then its NATO countries-Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, Czech Republic and Bulgaria.

Where did he make it clear? Hes made it clear he doesnt want a nato country on his doorstep. Hes made it clear that he wants parts of historic russia in russia. Ive never seen where he mad it clear he wants to rebuild the soviet union

And yet, invading Ukraine got him a NATO country on his doorstep (Finland).


And here's a news flash: both Poland and Finland are "part of historic Russia" by almost any definition. Both were part of Russia for over 100 years between the Napoleonic Wars and World War 1.

(06-01-2022 06:38 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 06:17 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 05:58 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 03:11 PM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  I get it that you consider yourself the best military analyst on the board. Nobody is to have a contrary opinion. I don't really care what your background is. I'm speaking for myself but I do know many others that feel we should have stayed out of this, even if they are sympathetic to the people of Ukraine.

What if Putin IS really a bit crazy or is dying? Are you going to bet he won't use a nuke on somebody? You gonna gamble with that?

If NATO gets into a shooting war with Russia, that is primarily the USA. So, to me, not much difference. We have no business being involved in this.

I'd prefer that we don't provoke him. We've already spent billions on this foolish endeavor. We will spend billions more to replace the arms we have sent, even if some were near the end of their useful life. Enough already.

Neville;
He's made it clear he wants to rebuild the Soviet empire. That includes several NATO countries. There is no doubt Moldova is 2nd if they conquer Ukraine.

Then its NATO countries-Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, Czech Republic and Bulgaria.

Where did he make it clear? Hes made it clear he doesnt want a nato country on his doorstep. Hes made it clear that he wants parts of historic russia in russia. Ive never seen where he mad it clear he wants to rebuild the soviet union

And yet, invading Ukraine got him a NATO country on his doorstep (Finland).


And here's a news flash: both Poland and Finland are "part of historic Russia" by almost any definition. Both were part of Russia for over 100 years between the Napoleonic Wars and World War 1.

I'd say Ukraine is also much more well armed now than before the war---so any hopes of the Ukraine war improving Russian national security is pretty much a bust.

(06-01-2022 06:38 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 06:17 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 05:58 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 03:11 PM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  I get it that you consider yourself the best military analyst on the board. Nobody is to have a contrary opinion. I don't really care what your background is. I'm speaking for myself but I do know many others that feel we should have stayed out of this, even if they are sympathetic to the people of Ukraine.

What if Putin IS really a bit crazy or is dying? Are you going to bet he won't use a nuke on somebody? You gonna gamble with that?

If NATO gets into a shooting war with Russia, that is primarily the USA. So, to me, not much difference. We have no business being involved in this.

I'd prefer that we don't provoke him. We've already spent billions on this foolish endeavor. We will spend billions more to replace the arms we have sent, even if some were near the end of their useful life. Enough already.

Neville;
He's made it clear he wants to rebuild the Soviet empire. That includes several NATO countries. There is no doubt Moldova is 2nd if they conquer Ukraine.

Then its NATO countries-Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, Czech Republic and Bulgaria.

Where did he make it clear? Hes made it clear he doesnt want a nato country on his doorstep. Hes made it clear that he wants parts of historic russia in russia. Ive never seen where he mad it clear he wants to rebuild the soviet union

And yet, invading Ukraine got him a NATO country on his doorstep (Finland).


And here's a news flash: both Poland and Finland are "part of historic Russia" by almost any definition. Both were part of Russia for over 100 years between the Napoleonic Wars and World War 1.

Thats not a news flash. The region is ethnically and linguistically complicated. Ukraine is a split. Oversimplification of thr situation makes it easier to understand but not rooted in reality.

Poles in poland. Finns in finland. Rus in Riussia. The ukraine is a mix. Weve discussed it.

No good guys here

(06-01-2022 07:04 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 06:38 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 06:17 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 05:58 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 03:11 PM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  I get it that you consider yourself the best military analyst on the board. Nobody is to have a contrary opinion. I don't really care what your background is. I'm speaking for myself but I do know many others that feel we should have stayed out of this, even if they are sympathetic to the people of Ukraine.

What if Putin IS really a bit crazy or is dying? Are you going to bet he won't use a nuke on somebody? You gonna gamble with that?

If NATO gets into a shooting war with Russia, that is primarily the USA. So, to me, not much difference. We have no business being involved in this.

I'd prefer that we don't provoke him. We've already spent billions on this foolish endeavor. We will spend billions more to replace the arms we have sent, even if some were near the end of their useful life. Enough already.

Neville;
He's made it clear he wants to rebuild the Soviet empire. That includes several NATO countries. There is no doubt Moldova is 2nd if they conquer Ukraine.

Then its NATO countries-Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, Czech Republic and Bulgaria.

Where did he make it clear? Hes made it clear he doesnt want a nato country on his doorstep. Hes made it clear that he wants parts of historic russia in russia. Ive never seen where he mad it clear he wants to rebuild the soviet union

And yet, invading Ukraine got him a NATO country on his doorstep (Finland).


And here's a news flash: both Poland and Finland are "part of historic Russia" by almost any definition. Both were part of Russia for over 100 years between the Napoleonic Wars and World War 1.

Thats not a news flash. The region is ethnically and linguistically complicated. Ukraine is a split. Oversimplification of thr situation makes it easier to understand but not rooted in reality.

Poles in poland. Finns in finland. Rus in Riussia. The ukraine is a mix. Weve discussed it.

No good guys here

Even the Donbass is 60% Ukrainian and the whole country is 78% Ukrainian. By contrast, Russia is only 81% Russian, Belarus is 85% Belarussian, Poland is 98% Polish. So if Ukraine is mixed, Russia is mixed.

Again, you have been a sucker for Russian propaganda.

(06-02-2022 09:31 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 07:04 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 06:38 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 06:17 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-01-2022 05:58 PM)bullet Wrote:  Neville;
He's made it clear he wants to rebuild the Soviet empire. That includes several NATO countries. There is no doubt Moldova is 2nd if they conquer Ukraine.

Then its NATO countries-Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, Czech Republic and Bulgaria.

Where did he make it clear? Hes made it clear he doesnt want a nato country on his doorstep. Hes made it clear that he wants parts of historic russia in russia. Ive never seen where he mad it clear he wants to rebuild the soviet union

And yet, invading Ukraine got him a NATO country on his doorstep (Finland).


And here's a news flash: both Poland and Finland are "part of historic Russia" by almost any definition. Both were part of Russia for over 100 years between the Napoleonic Wars and World War 1.

Thats not a news flash. The region is ethnically and linguistically complicated. Ukraine is a split. Oversimplification of thr situation makes it easier to understand but not rooted in reality.

Poles in poland. Finns in finland. Rus in Riussia. The ukraine is a mix. Weve discussed it.

No good guys here

Even the Donbass is 60% Ukrainian and the whole country is 78% Ukrainian. By contrast, Russia is only 81% Russian, Belarus is 85% Belarussian, Poland is 98% Polish. So if Ukraine is mixed, Russia is mixed.

Again, you have been a sucker for Russian propaganda.

Yeah, notice how Russians never mention what they did in Chechnya when they're talking about the rights of large ethnic minorities.

Russia spent most of the past three centuries conquering foreign countries. Unlike France or Britain, Russia still controls most of them (25 of its 87 "federal subjects" are homelands of ethnic minorities who were conquered by Russia)

(06-01-2022 02:40 PM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  You know exactly what I meant.

If the Ukrainians were to shoot into Russia with their own weapons, that is one thing. If they fire into Russia with weapons WE provided because their own weapons are incapable of it, then the unpredictable Putin has reason to accuse us of escalation and he is correct.

Again, I'm not FOR one side or the other in this war. There are no good guys here and it should not be OUR issue, one way or the other. But Biden's administration is full of war hawks desperate to take Putin down a notch regardless of the risks.

I’m tired of hearing the “there are no good guys here” sentiment. There are thousands of mostly poor people being torn apart by Russian artillery. Why? Because they are bad people? Russia started this action of genocide. They are clearly the bad guys.