(09-10-2025 05:52 PM)ABAB_Up_down Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 05:39 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 05:32 PM)ABAB_Up_down Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 05:30 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 05:10 PM)hburg Wrote:  

I don't see how its not a professional hit. And its designed to be a message to everyone.

It doesn't take a professional assassin to be able to bring a gun onto a campus where lawmakers have decided to allow open carrying of guns.

If it was up to me, every single place in America would be an open carry space.

Open carry laws do not kill people, murders and assassins do and they by definition do not give a rats ass about laws. Many of the deadliest places in America have the strictest gun laws in the country, yet are filled every week with gun violence.

You have to be a special kind of ignorant not to understand this simple truth.

Then if it was up to you a lot more people would be gunned down just like this in this open carry space.

The purpose of guns is to kill things. Having as many guns in as many hand means more people that can gun someone down like this. Letting those people straight up open carry wherever they want means the access to gun down whoever.


If you think we can't stop criminals from getting something that is illegal than what's the point of laws at all? If criminals wanting to break a law is argument to not have a specific law then why is any other law different? A functioning country creates laws and then those laws are enforced by the police who in a stable country have a monopoly on the use of force.


The US has by far the most shootings of any developed country because of the easy access to guns. To illustrate how easy it is to access guns in this country Mexican cartels buy American guns and smuggle them south into Mexico. Literally some of the most violence criminals in the world find it easier to obtain guns here than jump through the laws at home in a country that is supposedly less stable and functioning than this one.

You mean like the shipment of fully automatic weapons which wound up in the cartels hands by the Obama FBI claiming they wanted to trace them? Well, they did. They traced them straight to the cartels and of course couldn't do anything about it.

If you want a discussion about gun laws start a thread about it. But using a murder as an excuse to do so is trollish behavior.

(09-10-2025 06:18 PM)CrimsonPhantom Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 06:17 PM)TripleA Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 06:08 PM)MemTigers1998 Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 05:54 PM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 05:40 PM)--- Wrote:  He was ok with kids dying for 2nd amendment rights, i'm ok with him dying for 2nd amendment rights.

Well, you always were a sick piece of $hit.

Yeah, fk him. Trump won Kruciff you POS fuktard. You can GFY

What do you expect? Kruciff is an effing coward. Runs away from pushback, deletes his user name, then drops back in to throw stink bombs that reveal his true character, at just the wrong moments.

He just marked his account as away.

Okay, same difference. Still trying to hide his user name.

(09-10-2025 06:19 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 05:52 PM)ABAB_Up_down Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 05:39 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 05:32 PM)ABAB_Up_down Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 05:30 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  I don't see how its not a professional hit. And its designed to be a message to everyone.

It doesn't take a professional assassin to be able to bring a gun onto a campus where lawmakers have decided to allow open carrying of guns.

If it was up to me, every single place in America would be an open carry space.

Open carry laws do not kill people, murders and assassins do and they by definition do not give a rats ass about laws. Many of the deadliest places in America have the strictest gun laws in the country, yet are filled every week with gun violence.

You have to be a special kind of ignorant not to understand this simple truth.

Then if it was up to you a lot more people would be gunned down just like this in this open carry space.

The purpose of guns is to kill things. Having as many guns in as many hand means more people that can gun someone down like this. Letting those people straight up open carry wherever they want means the access to gun down whoever.


If you think we can't stop criminals from getting something that is illegal than what's the point of laws at all? If criminals wanting to break a law is argument to not have a specific law then why is any other law different? A functioning country creates laws and then those laws are enforced by the police who in a stable country have a monopoly on the use of force.


The US has by far the most shootings of any developed country because of the easy access to guns. To illustrate how easy it is to access guns in this country Mexican cartels buy American guns and smuggle them south into Mexico. Literally some of the most violence criminals in the world find it easier to obtain guns here than jump through the laws at home in a country that is supposedly less stable and functioning than this one.

You mean like the shipment of fully automatic weapons which wound up in the cartels hands by the Obama FBI claiming they wanted to trace them? Well, they did. They traced them straight to the cartels and of course couldn't do anything about it.

If you want a discussion about gun laws start a thread about it. But using a murder as an excuse to do so is trollish behavior.

Yep. And you should ban him for it. (And don't give me that look. You know I'm right. lol)

Thank you JR

(09-10-2025 02:20 PM)WalkThePlank Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 02:17 PM)CLTPirate Wrote:  Things are getting pretty wild in this country

As if a former president getting shot while running wasn’t enough?

I'm not super politically active. I couldn't have told you what Charlie Kirk was famous for, though if I had to guess I'd have said something to do with Conservatives. This situation is FAR different from an assassination or even attempted assassination of a past or current President, or even of a Presidential Candidate. From what little I've read on him today, it appears likely that Kirk created many enemies for himself. Things like a "professor watch list" whose members receive death threats and threats to their families? That's a very large number of potential suspects right there, assuming that with all the confusion out there they actually have not caught the real suspect ofc. Any of those profs at Utah St? How many trans kids are there at Utah St?

We can call this political violence, and tangentially it is, but it usually takes more than mean words to get somebody so angry that they wanna kill you. You don't see people gunning for Rubio or Vance, and with Trump I'm sure it had more to do with "he's the President from the wrong team" as we've seen throughout our history with nutjobs from both the right and left going after Presidents they disagreed with on policy. But you saw someone kill Kirk, a Republican who was, rightly or wrongly, demonized by the left, just as you saw someone attempt to kill Pelosi (or her husband in that case) b/c she was demonized by the right.

It's contemptible but predictable that so many here have used this tragic event to publicly proclaim and attempt to reinforce their preconceived notions about which "team" is right and which is wrong. I didn't follow any of the threads after the attempt on Trump's or Pelosi's lives, but I assume that those threads were similarly toxic. Go look in the mirror guys, if you use events like this to attempt to reinforce your political beliefs then YOU are part of the problem.

(09-10-2025 06:19 PM)TripleA Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 06:18 PM)CrimsonPhantom Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 06:17 PM)TripleA Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 06:08 PM)MemTigers1998 Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 05:54 PM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  Well, you always were a sick piece of $hit.

Yeah, fk him. Trump won Kruciff you POS fuktard. You can GFY

What do you expect? Kruciff is an effing coward. Runs away from pushback, deletes his user name, then drops back in to throw stink bombs that reveal his true character, at just the wrong moments.

He just marked his account as away.

Okay, same difference. Still trying to hide his user name.

Yeah. That's even worse than deleting it. What a coward.

I think this is truly a massive, ironically termed turning point



Sent from my SM-S928U using Tapatalk

(09-10-2025 06:17 PM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 06:15 PM)mlb Wrote:  Get ******. Someone lost their life today, 2 kids lost a dad, and a wife lost the love of her life. Both parties are guilty of this rhetoric. One is more successful. You can bury your head. I've enjoyed Charlie Kirk's views and I follow him on X, even when I don't agree with him.

Are you reading what your beloved leftists are posting in this thread?

My beloved? I am not left. You guys just don't like that I don't think Trump is God and infallible.

(09-10-2025 06:17 PM)ABAB_Up_down Wrote:  Half of what I have said is quoting or referencing what Kirk said himself. Yet by quoting him and acting nowhere near as disrespectful as he did in life I'm being divisive? Does that say anything about his rhetoric?

It is very odd to be okay with everything Kirk said when other people were attacked or killed, but upset by what I am saying. I'm just pointing out that he was killed by laws he fought for. Other people will continue to also die in random shooting if nothing is changed.

You people are just stuck on stupid.

Laws do not kill people, guns do not kill people. People kill people.

The simple presence of guns are not what trigger people to murder others. And as we have seen time and time and time again, if they want to kill and don't have a gun they will just make a bomb or drive into a crowd of people or stab a helpless Ukrainian women on the subway or do countless other things to satisfy their blood lust.

The 2nd amendment is not going away ever, and there are VERY justified reason why we have it and why we always will. And no one deserves to be attacked or killed for supporting those justifications that most Americans have supported for centuries.

Pointing a finger as someone's support of the 2nd amendment on the day they are assassinated is one of the most scumbag POS moves of all time.

(09-10-2025 06:17 PM)ABAB_Up_down Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 06:09 PM)Frank Grimes Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 05:39 PM)ABAB_Up_down Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 05:35 PM)Frank Grimes Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 05:30 PM)ABAB_Up_down Wrote:  This is a man that argued that the people being killed from gun violence is a necessary cost.

This is the only developed country that has such a sad amount of shootings because whenever these shootings happen people like Kirk always rush to say thoughts and prayers but also that the deaths are worth not changing our gun laws. If it wasn't for people like Kirk he might still be alive today and his kids might still have a dad.

Utah passed a law to allow open carry on college campuses less than a month ago. Would it have been so easy for this shooter to kill Kirk if he couldn't be openly carrying a gun on UV's campus today? Will Utah reconsider its new law that already helped one murderer or will Utah's lawmakers just say thoughts and prayers and move on?

This is also a man that was not sympathetic at all about the shootings of Melissa Hortman and John Hoffman in July. When that shooting happened he rushed to blame Tim Walz.

I expect this post to be met with people reporting me, trying to ban me and maybe even hoping to censor the words I typed along with claims of me being hateful, evil, and whatever else, but think back to when Paul Pelosi was attacked in his own home. Kirk decided to push the right wing conspiracy that Pelosi and the random assailant man were gay lovers and that someone should pay the bail of the criminal. So as long as someone is not accusing Kirk of actually being gay lovers with his murderer then they are are higher moral grounds than the grounds of which Kirk lived his life.

Are you actually justifying him being killed?

Again, I disagreed with Kirk on most things, but I’m not gonna justify his death. You make change by convincing people why you think they’re wrong, not violence.

Justifying? No.

Pointing out that he spent his life working to make sure murders like this kept happening? Yes.



And I don't care for any moral outrage because again remember that as long as someone is not accusing Kirk of actually being gay lovers with his murderer then they are are higher moral grounds than the grounds of which he lived his life.

What happened to Kirk is horrific. Just like what happened in Minnesota a couple months ago was horrific. Trump nearly getting assassinated is horrific. Or Pelosi’s husband getting assaulted. Political violence just shows how intellectually weak someone is.

You aren’t bringing anyone to your side of the argument when you say, “he did this to himself”. You’re just causing more division and hatred. If you can just ignore a father/husband/son dying with no sympathy, seek help.

Half of what I have said is quoting or referencing what Kirk said himself. Yet by quoting him and acting nowhere near as disrespectful as he did in life I'm being divisive? Does that say anything about his rhetoric?

It is very odd to be okay with everything Kirk said when other people were attacked or killed, but upset by what I am saying. I'm just pointing out that he was killed by laws he fought for. Other people will continue to also die in random shooting if nothing is changed.

Pretty sure I made it clear that I didn’t agree with much anything Kirk said. I just have a strange sense of empathy I guess, even if I disagree with him, because he’s now dead and the kids will be fatherless. Again, if your goal is to bring people to your side by being a ******* about what he’s said and making comments about “he did this to himself”, good luck. Go back to celebrating on Reddit and BlueSky.

(09-10-2025 06:20 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 02:20 PM)WalkThePlank Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 02:17 PM)CLTPirate Wrote:  Things are getting pretty wild in this country

As if a former president getting shot while running wasn’t enough?

I'm not super politically active. I couldn't have told you what Charlie Kirk was famous for, though if I had to guess I'd have said something to do with Conservatives. This situation is FAR different from an assassination or even attempted assassination of a past or current President, or even of a Presidential Candidate. From what little I've read on him today, it appears likely that Kirk created many enemies for himself. Things like a "professor watch list" whose members receive death threats and threats to their families? That's a very large number of potential suspects right there, assuming that with all the confusion out there they actually have not caught the real suspect ofc. Any of those profs at Utah St? How many trans kids are there at Utah St?

We can call this political violence, and tangentially it is, but it usually takes more than mean words to get somebody so angry that they wanna kill you. You don't see people gunning for Rubio or Vance, and with Trump I'm sure it had more to do with "he's the President from the wrong team" as we've seen throughout our history with nutjobs from both the right and left going after Presidents they disagreed with on policy. But you saw someone kill Kirk, a Republican who was, rightly or wrongly, demonized by the left, just as you saw someone attempt to kill Pelosi (or her husband in that case) b/c she was demonized by the right.

It's contemptible but predictable that so many here have used this tragic event to publicly proclaim and attempt to reinforce their preconceived notions about which "team" is right and which is wrong. I didn't follow any of the threads after the attempt on Trump's or Pelosi's lives, but I assume that those threads were similarly toxic. Go look in the mirror guys, if you use events like this to attempt to reinforce your political beliefs then YOU are part of the problem.

Thanks for coming over to preach to us, when you have no skin in the game here.

(09-10-2025 06:23 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 06:17 PM)ABAB_Up_down Wrote:  Half of what I have said is quoting or referencing what Kirk said himself. Yet by quoting him and acting nowhere near as disrespectful as he did in life I'm being divisive? Does that say anything about his rhetoric?

It is very odd to be okay with everything Kirk said when other people were attacked or killed, but upset by what I am saying. I'm just pointing out that he was killed by laws he fought for. Other people will continue to also die in random shooting if nothing is changed.

You people are just stuck on stupid.

Laws do not kill people, guns do not kill people. People kill people.

The simple presence of guns are not what trigger people to murder others. And as we have seen time and time and time again, if they want to kill and don't have a gin they will just make a bomb or drive into a crowd of people or do countless other things to satisfy their blood lust.

Guns very much do kill people. Killing things is actually the whole point of guns.

If I were to say "Atomic bombs don't kill people. People kill people. Everyone should have access to atomic bombs since it's not the bombs it's the people." Would you say "yeah that makes sense."? No you wouldn't say that? Why not?

(09-10-2025 04:49 PM)maximus Wrote:  I started the week taking my family to dinner on Monday evening. A very nice waitress took care of us and was super sweet. Before we wrapped up she asked if we went to church and we talked about that for a minute. She then asked all of our names and asked to pray for us. She prayed over the table and called us each out by name, it was a nice gesture.

She was 22 years old and gave her life to the Lord 2 years ago, she shared her story.

The world needs more of that.

Not this mess. Not the rot that is the abnormal woke mob.

God help us all

Sent from my SM-S928U using Tapatalk

There are more and more like her. My youngest grandson moved to Tampa for a job and is living with 7 other young men in a 4 bedroom house. One of the conditions for his friends getting him the job and a place to live was that he attends church every Sunday, no exceptions. He's really gotten into it. There's hope.

(09-10-2025 06:24 PM)ABAB_Up_down Wrote:  Guns very much do kill people. That's actually the whole point of them.

Never shot your own food I take it. Figures.

(09-10-2025 06:19 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 05:52 PM)ABAB_Up_down Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 05:39 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 05:32 PM)ABAB_Up_down Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 05:30 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  I don't see how its not a professional hit. And its designed to be a message to everyone.

It doesn't take a professional assassin to be able to bring a gun onto a campus where lawmakers have decided to allow open carrying of guns.

If it was up to me, every single place in America would be an open carry space.

Open carry laws do not kill people, murders and assassins do and they by definition do not give a rats ass about laws. Many of the deadliest places in America have the strictest gun laws in the country, yet are filled every week with gun violence.

You have to be a special kind of ignorant not to understand this simple truth.

Then if it was up to you a lot more people would be gunned down just like this in this open carry space.

The purpose of guns is to kill things. Having as many guns in as many hand means more people that can gun someone down like this. Letting those people straight up open carry wherever they want means the access to gun down whoever.


If you think we can't stop criminals from getting something that is illegal than what's the point of laws at all? If criminals wanting to break a law is argument to not have a specific law then why is any other law different? A functioning country creates laws and then those laws are enforced by the police who in a stable country have a monopoly on the use of force.


The US has by far the most shootings of any developed country because of the easy access to guns. To illustrate how easy it is to access guns in this country Mexican cartels buy American guns and smuggle them south into Mexico. Literally some of the most violence criminals in the world find it easier to obtain guns here than jump through the laws at home in a country that is supposedly less stable and functioning than this one.

You mean like the shipment of fully automatic weapons which wound up in the cartels hands by the Obama FBI claiming they wanted to trace them? Well, they did. They traced them straight to the cartels and of course couldn't do anything about it.

If you want a discussion about gun laws start a thread about it. But using a murder as an excuse to do so is trollish behavior.

One of those guns was used in the murder of a Border Patrol Agent. Obama wanted those those guns on the streets of America so he could argue for stricter gun control.

(09-10-2025 06:24 PM)ABAB_Up_down Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 06:23 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 06:17 PM)ABAB_Up_down Wrote:  Half of what I have said is quoting or referencing what Kirk said himself. Yet by quoting him and acting nowhere near as disrespectful as he did in life I'm being divisive? Does that say anything about his rhetoric?

It is very odd to be okay with everything Kirk said when other people were attacked or killed, but upset by what I am saying. I'm just pointing out that he was killed by laws he fought for. Other people will continue to also die in random shooting if nothing is changed.

You people are just stuck on stupid.

Laws do not kill people, guns do not kill people. People kill people.

The simple presence of guns are not what trigger people to murder others. And as we have seen time and time and time again, if they want to kill and don't have a gin they will just make a bomb or drive into a crowd of people or do countless other things to satisfy their blood lust.

Guns very much do kill people. That's actually the whole point of them.

Oh, yes. Guns are totally sentient but can't move on their own so they brainwash people into firing them at each other.

It's not the tool; it's the heart of the person wielding it. But you don't care because "muh gun control".

(09-10-2025 06:24 PM)ABAB_Up_down Wrote:  Guns very much do kill people. That's actually the whole point of them.

If I were to say "Atomic bombs don't kill people. People kill people. Everyone should have access to atomic bombs since it's not the bombs it's the people." Would you say "yeah that makes sense."? No? Why not?

This thread is to pay homage to a family man trying to do his best in this miserable world, not somewhere for you to preach your miserable leftist gospel.

(09-10-2025 06:28 PM)GeminiCoog Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 06:24 PM)ABAB_Up_down Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 06:23 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 06:17 PM)ABAB_Up_down Wrote:  Half of what I have said is quoting or referencing what Kirk said himself. Yet by quoting him and acting nowhere near as disrespectful as he did in life I'm being divisive? Does that say anything about his rhetoric?

It is very odd to be okay with everything Kirk said when other people were attacked or killed, but upset by what I am saying. I'm just pointing out that he was killed by laws he fought for. Other people will continue to also die in random shooting if nothing is changed.

You people are just stuck on stupid.

Laws do not kill people, guns do not kill people. People kill people.

The simple presence of guns are not what trigger people to murder others. And as we have seen time and time and time again, if they want to kill and don't have a gin they will just make a bomb or drive into a crowd of people or do countless other things to satisfy their blood lust.

Guns very much do kill people. That's actually the whole point of them.

Oh, yes. Guns are totally sentient but can't move on their own so they brainwash people into firing them at each other.

It's not the tool; it's the heart of the person wielding it. But you don't care because "muh gun control".

If I were to say "Atomic bombs don't kill people. People kill people. Everyone should have access to atomic bombs since it's not the bombs it's the people." Would you say "yeah that makes sense."? No you wouldn't say that? Why not?

(09-10-2025 06:24 PM)ABAB_Up_down Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 06:23 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 06:17 PM)ABAB_Up_down Wrote:  Half of what I have said is quoting or referencing what Kirk said himself. Yet by quoting him and acting nowhere near as disrespectful as he did in life I'm being divisive? Does that say anything about his rhetoric?

It is very odd to be okay with everything Kirk said when other people were attacked or killed, but upset by what I am saying. I'm just pointing out that he was killed by laws he fought for. Other people will continue to also die in random shooting if nothing is changed.

You people are just stuck on stupid.

Laws do not kill people, guns do not kill people. People kill people.

The simple presence of guns are not what trigger people to murder others. And as we have seen time and time and time again, if they want to kill and don't have a gin they will just make a bomb or drive into a crowd of people or do countless other things to satisfy their blood lust.

Guns very much do kill people. Killing things is actually the whole point of guns.

If I were to say "Atomic bombs don't kill people. People kill people. Everyone should have access to atomic bombs since it's not the bombs it's the people." Would you say "yeah that makes sense."? No you wouldn't say that? Why not?

Nope. People kill people. Guns and bombs are just tools for that. Really, if you ban all warheads and guns, people will resort to using knives and even sharp sticks to kill. It's not a problem with the tool used; it's a problem with the heart of the person wielding it.

But again, you don't care.

(09-10-2025 06:17 PM)ABAB_Up_down Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 06:09 PM)Frank Grimes Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 05:39 PM)ABAB_Up_down Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 05:35 PM)Frank Grimes Wrote:  

(09-10-2025 05:30 PM)ABAB_Up_down Wrote:  This is a man that argued that the people being killed from gun violence is a necessary cost.

This is the only developed country that has such a sad amount of shootings because whenever these shootings happen people like Kirk always rush to say thoughts and prayers but also that the deaths are worth not changing our gun laws. If it wasn't for people like Kirk he might still be alive today and his kids might still have a dad.

Utah passed a law to allow open carry on college campuses less than a month ago. Would it have been so easy for this shooter to kill Kirk if he couldn't be openly carrying a gun on UV's campus today? Will Utah reconsider its new law that already helped one murderer or will Utah's lawmakers just say thoughts and prayers and move on?

This is also a man that was not sympathetic at all about the shootings of Melissa Hortman and John Hoffman in July. When that shooting happened he rushed to blame Tim Walz.

I expect this post to be met with people reporting me, trying to ban me and maybe even hoping to censor the words I typed along with claims of me being hateful, evil, and whatever else, but think back to when Paul Pelosi was attacked in his own home. Kirk decided to push the right wing conspiracy that Pelosi and the random assailant man were gay lovers and that someone should pay the bail of the criminal. So as long as someone is not accusing Kirk of actually being gay lovers with his murderer then they are are higher moral grounds than the grounds of which Kirk lived his life.

Are you actually justifying him being killed?

Again, I disagreed with Kirk on most things, but I’m not gonna justify his death. You make change by convincing people why you think they’re wrong, not violence.

Justifying? No.

Pointing out that he spent his life working to make sure murders like this kept happening? Yes.



And I don't care for any moral outrage because again remember that as long as someone is not accusing Kirk of actually being gay lovers with his murderer then they are are higher moral grounds than the grounds of which he lived his life.

What happened to Kirk is horrific. Just like what happened in Minnesota a couple months ago was horrific. Trump nearly getting assassinated is horrific. Or Pelosi’s husband getting assaulted. Political violence just shows how intellectually weak someone is.

You aren’t bringing anyone to your side of the argument when you say, “he did this to himself”. You’re just causing more division and hatred. If you can just ignore a father/husband/son dying with no sympathy, seek help.

Half of what I have said is quoting or referencing what Kirk said himself. Yet by quoting him and acting nowhere near as disrespectful as he did in life I'm being divisive? Does that say anything about his rhetoric?

It is very odd to be okay with everything Kirk said when other people were attacked or killed, but upset by what I am saying. I'm just pointing out that he was killed by laws he fought for. Other people have been killed by the same laws and other people will continue to be killed by them. It's easy to view those deaths as "necessary" like this person did when they are faceless statics. Yet when they are personal or parasocial people feel differently.

If someone like AOC was murdered by a black thug in NYC, would that invalidate her views or make them less compelling?

Sometimes the things and people we fight for blow back in our faces. It doesn’t mean that what they believed was fraudulent to begin with. I fail to see why the left cannot grasp this easy concept.