(01-15-2013 10:44 AM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  Will Coleman got a bad rap here. He wasn't that bad.

Agreed...It was all about expectations...

We expected a monster and got an slightly above average player.

(01-15-2013 10:59 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(01-15-2013 10:44 AM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  Will Coleman got a bad rap here. He wasn't that bad.

Agreed...It was all about expectations...

We expected a monster and got an slightly above average player.

Yep we were fed and believed "Joey Dorsey who can SCORE".

When really it was Joey Dorsey who couldnt rebound.

(01-15-2013 09:04 AM)Chi-TownTiger Wrote:  

(01-15-2013 01:37 AM)lenetzach Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 11:19 PM)Chi-TownTiger Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 11:14 PM)NTMB Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 11:12 PM)Chi-TownTiger Wrote:  Who is truely a "1 and done" automatic that JP has gotten? Your question actually makes my point for me.


Will Barton, Adonis Thomas, Elliot Williams.

One out of 3 ain't too bad.

Barton was the 9th rated player coming out of High School. I think Elliot was 11th. Any five star is a player who could have gone to the NBA after their first year.

The ONE you are referring hasn't panned out to well. I doubt he gets drafted right now.

Bolded statement is not accurate.

Criteria for drafting NBA players are not the same as comparing high school players to one another.

I'm saying any five star has the potential to be a one and done. Adonis Thomas was considered to be a lottery pick this year. I know he's a sophomore but that was because of injury. OK so our guys didn't pan out as one and dones. Most felt Adonis was coming out of High School.

EW had the right blend of athleticism, skill and size for his projected NBA position, but still didn't even play until late in his freshman year, and was not a one and done. He played 2 years in college.

Will and Adonis both have issues with size or skill set relative to position (depending on how you look at it). They are still great bball players but any potential to be one and done was dependent on them showing overwhelming skills and production.

People can imagine a scenario where any given 5 star would be one and done. But a lot of times there are known questions relative to the NBA.

I thought Adonis was predicted a 1 and done lottery pick since highschool.
Maybe I was just misinformed. I am 99% certain the beginning of last season he was in the mock drafts lotteries.

Fun stuff...

The 2009 team started...

Evans
Mack
Anderson
Dozier
Taggart

Bench
Kemp
Spoon
Niles
Sallie

Pastner inherited Mack as a returning starter, and of course Kemp, Sallie, Spoon and Niles. Instead of adding the expected...as of March...Cousins, Henry and likely John Wall and others, he added Eliot Williams Will Coleman, Angel Garcia and DJ Stephens.

---

In terms of rolling...after losing to Minnesota, the team is 10-1, with the one loss a barn burner to Louisville. While folks enjoy poking at the competition, the team is rolling the best they can playing who is in front of them.

Enjoy it.

Or don't.

(01-14-2013 10:02 PM)JMSTiger Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 09:56 PM)Tiger Babs Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 09:52 PM)JMSTiger Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 09:49 PM)Tiger Babs Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 09:43 PM)JMSTiger Wrote:  Calipari during his first five years at Memphis won very few big games, unless you include NIT games as "big games." Calipari was 7-22 (.241) vs. ranked opponents as Memphis head coach from 2000-01 to 2004-05.

I'm talking about after Cal got the program rolling. Not the Price/Jones disaster that Cal inherited. Pastner inherited the greatest run in Tiger history that Cal built. The one that was a top 10 program when he arrived.

Pastner inherited a mess when Calipari left. Calipari inherited a pretty talented team in 2000-01 and still lost 15 games.

Are you trying to say that Cal inherited a better situation than Pastner? LOL!!

You can't be serious.

As far as returning talent, absolutely. Calipari had Kelly Wise, Marcus Moody, Shannon Forman, Scooter McFadgon, Shyrone Chatman, Earl Barron, Shamel Jones, Courtney Trask and Paris London sitting there waiting for him when he arrived.

Pastner had Wesley Witherspoon, Roburt Sallie, Doneal Mack, Willie Kemp and Pierre Henderson-Niles.

It's not even close.

i already talked aout this earlier.

Moody was a head case and not good, trask wasn't that good, paris london blew, shamel jones and shannon foreman were middle of the pack c-usa talents. Wise was a fringe nba player and barron was soft as butter when Cal got here. Scooter I guess was a talented scorer. There is a reason those teams were .500 under tic price and it was because the roster wasn't that good.

You also neglected to mention Elliot Williams and Angel Garcia..

The talent is comparable. Kemp is better than any PG on that initial cal team. Elliott Williams is better than scooter mcfadgon by a lot. Mack and Sallie are better than the other guards (what other guards?)

Cal's initial roster had better bigs but way worse guard play than Pastner's. Pastner's roster also included players who Cal had taught to play defense, which is a huge, HUGE bonus that everyone forgets.

(01-14-2013 11:38 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 11:36 PM)macphil30 Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 09:04 PM)Atlanta Wrote:  Couldn't agree more. This was essentially going to be my response to a recent thread about how Memphis seems unable to hold a big lead. I believe it has everything to do with not playing a tough conference schedule where you have to come ready to play every minute of the game. And I agree it has everything to do with a poor tournament preparation which has proven our demise over the last several years.

I agree,these players know Memphis' history in Cusa,they know we've been killing these schools for years.They gotta feel like they're playing their little brothers.No comp makes you lazy.

Honestly I think it has more to do with approach...

Cal was very negative and would always harp on mistakes after wins...Paster looks for positives. I feel guys are more apt to get comfortable when they are getting patted on the back. Paster was over the top happy after the win over UT when in actuality it wasn't really a great win and we didn't perform up to our abilities...Alot of teachable moments in that game that weren't even talked about that showed right back up in the next game.

this is a good point. sometimes people need their a$$ chewed out. Sometimes they need to be praised. Cal did both. I'm sure Pastner does both as well, just not sure of the effectiveness. Joe appears to be getting it now, Tarik gets it, CC doesn't

(01-15-2013 05:51 AM)missjtiger Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 09:39 PM)JMSTiger Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 09:25 PM)Tiger Babs Wrote:  Are you kidding? Cal had 2 straight Elite 8's, a title game appearance and a Sweet 16. That's 4 runs in this exact same conference. And oh yeah, he won 65 straight CUSA games to boot.

It easier to do such things when you have a first team All-American (CDR), one of the best all-around players in Tiger history (Anderson), a top pick in the draft (Rose) followed by a lottery pick in the draft (Evans). Pastner has talented teams, but they are not at the same level of Calipari's last four seasons.

I agree 100%....wish more understood this.

did antonio anderson come in that way or did cal coach him that way. It's not just that antonio came in knowing everything and didn't take anything away. CDR progressed mammothly every season. Is that not coaching? Joey went from not being able to play for 3 minutes to being on team usa in international competition and being a dominant rebounder and defender

It is not just "talent," it is how it is developed and maximized. I would argue Cal squeezed everything he could get out of CDR, AA, and Joey.

Does anybody want to say that about JJ, CC, or tb?

The thing about AA that put us over the top was his work ethic and leadership.

He came that way.

If Cal could create that work ethic and leadership and leadership, why not create it in all of his players, or at least some every year?

In short, if AA were not inherently special as the ultimate glue/effort guy, he would not be special at all bc Cal would always have at least one player like him.

Look at AA's minutes - he played the most minutes all 4 of his years, and his stats alone don't justify that but anyone who watched knows he was indispensable. Cal couldn't afford not to have him on the court. If AA was special because of coaching then another guy could have stepped in and replaced him (with more offensive production even).

Yes Cal was AA's coach. But even though Cal always wanted lockdown team defense before AA - but he just wasn't getting it - especially not consistently.

Antonio's leadership in effort, particularly on defense helped to will and scrap those teams to a number of wins that would normally get away because of a bad night.

It's not like Cal's defense is unusual or genius. It's just that always staying in stance, always moving with your feet t stay in position, switching and recovering more quickly than the offense moves - that takes a tremendous amount of effort.

It's not just that AA raised the bar. He got in guys' faces and demanded full effort and excellence.

He came that way. It is who he is.

The results of those teams allowed Cal to say this is what happens when you do what I say, and he has ridden that wave with the talent he has gotten, although with inconsistent results (losing games he wasn't supposed to lose).

The more I think about it the more I realize how much Cal owes AA for those big winning years and how that established him.

Cal set the course in the way any coach would, but he did not create AA or even maximize him. AA maximized himself and others, and that is precisely why he is so special.

(01-15-2013 05:14 PM)lenetzach Wrote:  The thing about AA that put us over the top was his work ethic and leadership.

He came that way.

If Cal could create that work ethic and leadership and leadership, why not create it in all of his players, or at least some every year?

In short, if AA were not inherently special as the ultimate glue/effort guy, he would not be special at all bc Cal would always have at least one player like him.

Look at AA's minutes - he played the most minutes all 4 of his years, and his stats alone don't justify that but anyone who watched knows he was indispensable. Cal couldn't afford not to have him on the court. If AA was special because of coaching then another guy could have stepped in and replaced him (with more offensive production even).

Yes Cal was AA's coach. But even though Cal always wanted lockdown team defense before AA - but he just wasn't getting it - especially not consistently.

Antonio's leadership in effort, particularly on defense helped to will and scrap those teams to a number of wins that would normally get away because of a bad night.

It's not like Cal's defense is unusual or genius. It's just that always staying in stance, always moving with your feet t stay in position, switching and recovering more quickly than the offense moves - that takes a tremendous amount of effort.

It's not just that AA raised the bar. He got in guys' faces and demanded full effort and excellence.

He came that way. It is who he is.

The results of those teams allowed Cal to say this is what happens when you do what I say, and he has ridden that wave with the talent he has gotten, although with inconsistent results (losing games he wasn't supposed to lose).

The more I think about it the more I realize how much Cal owes AA for those big winning years and how that established him.

Cal set the course in the way any coach would, but he did not create AA or even maximize him. AA maximized himself and others, and that is precisely why he is so special.

Beautifully stated. And I agree 100%.

I have said the Lauringberg Prep team is what really did it for Cal. Without that recruiting class, Cal wouldnt be who he is today.

This team played together in prep school, with a similar system, and went 40-0. They came in to Memphis already with established roles and knowing how to play together in a similar system. That got the ball rolling. Basically each year the "star" from the Lauringberg Prep team would be replaced.

(01-15-2013 11:07 AM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(01-15-2013 10:59 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(01-15-2013 10:44 AM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  Will Coleman got a bad rap here. He wasn't that bad.

Agreed...It was all about expectations...

We expected a monster and got an slightly above average player.

Yep we were fed and believed "Joey Dorsey who can SCORE".

When really it was Joey Dorsey who couldnt rebound.

Hold up...Joey could rebound. I was with u till u said that.

(01-15-2013 06:45 PM)Dmalice Wrote:  

(01-15-2013 11:07 AM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(01-15-2013 10:59 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(01-15-2013 10:44 AM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  Will Coleman got a bad rap here. He wasn't that bad.

Agreed...It was all about expectations...

We expected a monster and got an slightly above average player.

Yep we were fed and believed "Joey Dorsey who can SCORE".

When really it was Joey Dorsey who couldnt rebound.

Hold up...Joey could rebound. I was with u till u said that.

Exactly, Joey could.

So many want to blame coaching and ask how did Cal do it in a ratty conference. For one thing Cal did not recruit local. Look at the result of Penny's hoop fest. Seems to me it showed how much we over rate the local talent. I guess because we want it to be true so badly.

(01-15-2013 07:17 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(01-15-2013 06:45 PM)Dmalice Wrote:  

(01-15-2013 11:07 AM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(01-15-2013 10:59 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(01-15-2013 10:44 AM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  Will Coleman got a bad rap here. He wasn't that bad.

Agreed...It was all about expectations...

We expected a monster and got an slightly above average player.

Yep we were fed and believed "Joey Dorsey who can SCORE".

When really it was Joey Dorsey who couldnt rebound.

Hold up...Joey could rebound. I was with u till u said that.

Exactly, Joey could.

Yeah, that was his strength. He was a great rebounder, but not so good offensively (unless it was a dunk). He was the opposite of Black. For some reason, Black has trouble rebounding, but is very solid on the low block when it comes to scoring.

(01-15-2013 07:53 PM)Poorwill Wrote:  So many want to blame coaching and ask how did Cal do it in a ratty conference. For one thing Cal did not recruit local. Look at the result of Penny's hoop fest. Seems to me it showed how much we over rate the local talent. I guess because we want it to be true so badly.

And we have already done it for next year, too.

It's OK I guess to put expectations on the team. I just don't like expectations put on individual players. Especially the locals players.

(01-15-2013 09:35 PM)cvilletiger Wrote:  

(01-15-2013 07:53 PM)Poorwill Wrote:  So many want to blame coaching and ask how did Cal do it in a ratty conference. For one thing Cal did not recruit local. Look at the result of Penny's hoop fest. Seems to me it showed how much we over rate the local talent. I guess because we want it to be true so badly.

And we have already done it for next year, too.

It's OK I guess to put expectations on the team. I just don't like expectations put on individual players. Especially the locals players.

Now that we've signed all the local stars, maybe we won't be afraid to allow competitive D-1 teams to play at Fed Ex

(01-15-2013 06:10 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  I have said the Lauringberg Prep team is what really did it for Cal. Without that recruiting class, Cal wouldnt be who he is today.

This team played together in prep school, with a similar system, and went 40-0. They came in to Memphis already with established roles and knowing how to play together in a similar system.

This is a solid, accurate point. That LP team allowed them to hone their skills. Plus they were mature physically - 19-20 year old freshmen, and had a knowledge of each other.

Throw in Dorsey from Baltimore who was convinced by the coaches he could crash the NBA as a rebounding and defensive demon.

Dorsey, CDR, AA, Dozier = one helluva core.

Freshman year - Carney, S. Williams and DWash also on team, Elite 8.

Sophomore year - The core group + Kemp + Hunt, Elite 8.

Junior year - The core group + Rose + transfer Taggart, 2.5 minutes from national championship. A missed 2 foot bunny shot (UT loss) and missed FTs in the final minute against Kansas were the only things that kept MEMPHIS from running the entire table to a 40-0 championship season.

(01-15-2013 08:06 PM)JMSTiger Wrote:  

(01-15-2013 07:17 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(01-15-2013 06:45 PM)Dmalice Wrote:  

(01-15-2013 11:07 AM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(01-15-2013 10:59 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  Agreed...It was all about expectations...

We expected a monster and got an slightly above average player.

Yep we were fed and believed "Joey Dorsey who can SCORE".

When really it was Joey Dorsey who couldnt rebound.

Hold up...Joey could rebound. I was with u till u said that.

Exactly, Joey could.

Yeah, that was his strength. He was a great rebounder, but not so good offensively (unless it was a dunk). He was the opposite of Black. For some reason, Black has trouble rebounding, but is very solid on the low block when it comes to scoring.

You all are misreading his response...

He is saying Coleman was a Joey Dorsey who could not rebound... context clues guys...

(01-16-2013 12:13 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(01-15-2013 08:06 PM)JMSTiger Wrote:  

(01-15-2013 07:17 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(01-15-2013 06:45 PM)Dmalice Wrote:  

(01-15-2013 11:07 AM)memtigbb Wrote:  Yep we were fed and believed "Joey Dorsey who can SCORE".

When really it was Joey Dorsey who couldnt rebound.

Hold up...Joey could rebound. I was with u till u said that.

Exactly, Joey could.

Yeah, that was his strength. He was a great rebounder, but not so good offensively (unless it was a dunk). He was the opposite of Black. For some reason, Black has trouble rebounding, but is very solid on the low block when it comes to scoring.

You all are misreading his response...

He is saying Coleman was a Joey Dorsey who could not rebound... context clues guys...

We are misleading this....When really it was Joey Dorsey who couldnt rebound.