OK. Since Elliot Williams didn't have the benifit of Cal's or JP's coaching during his first year of college (though he did manage to get some good ideas from some hack coach at lets see .... DUKE!!), I'll ask you just one question. If he is as good as all those first rounders that Call has had both here and at Kentucky, why did he come here after Duke and not just go straight to the NBA where he can make huge money and get the best possible care for his sick mother? BTW your other 2 examples were not "1 and dones" either.

(01-14-2013 11:12 PM)Chi-TownTiger Wrote:  Who is truely a "1 and done" automatic that JP has gotten? Your question actually makes my point for me.


Will Barton, Adonis Thomas, Elliot Williams.

(01-14-2013 11:18 PM)OneShiningMoment Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 10:55 PM)JMSTiger Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 10:51 PM)Chi-TownTiger Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 10:47 PM)bcspiker Wrote:  Yes he would have. Everyone forgets the added benifit that having some great players on your team like AA, Rose and Evans creates. Everyone else on your team has to practice against them every day. This makes everyone better (especially on defense) and allows for an intensity that can not be replicated in our conference period. How many times during that era did we sit there an say "our 2nd team could smoke these guys" even against good teams? The coaches might teach you some things and develop a plan but nothing develops intesity and drive like the guy between you and the basket (and I say this as a coach who has coached athletes to national championships in 3 different sports). The guys Pastner has had so far are not as good as the guys Cal had during the run. And they still won't be even next year. I do think next year you will see a whole new level of intensity because top to bottom everyone can challenge everyone.

(01-14-2013 09:47 PM)Latilleon Wrote:  But they are still beyond anything else in the conference. Would Cal have lost any conference games in 11,12, & 13 with the same rosters that Pastner has had?

Are we really comparing a guy who took a bunch of Freshman and won a national championship to a guy who hasn't won an NIT game yet in four years with five star recruits?

SMFH!!!!!!!!!!!

That team was not all freshmen and the freshmen that were part of the team were certainly were not just "a bunch of freshmen." How many of them were NBA first round picks? By the way, Pastner has won a NIT game (over St. John's). He barely lost to a #5 seed as a #12 seed in his second season as a coach and he lost to a #9 seed in an 8/9 game. Not exactly some sort of humiliating disgrace. Some of you act as though Pastner's record at Memphis is down there with Moe Iba and Tic Price.

KY's 2011-12 national championship starting roster

Starting lineup: Anthony Davis, C, FR; Terrence Jones, PF, SO; Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, SF, FR; Doron Lamb, SG, SO; Marquis Teague, PG, FR

Some point to the leadership of senior, backup SF Darius Miller as a key to KY's successful season.

I never said they were all freshman. I said a bunch of freshman. Three freshman starters is a bunch of freshman in my book.

Of those 3 freshmen, which of them would start behind anyone in our current line-up? Tell me you wouldn't have given anything to have any of them.

(01-14-2013 11:22 PM)Chi-TownTiger Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 11:18 PM)OneShiningMoment Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 10:55 PM)JMSTiger Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 10:51 PM)Chi-TownTiger Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 10:47 PM)bcspiker Wrote:  Yes he would have. Everyone forgets the added benifit that having some great players on your team like AA, Rose and Evans creates. Everyone else on your team has to practice against them every day. This makes everyone better (especially on defense) and allows for an intensity that can not be replicated in our conference period. How many times during that era did we sit there an say "our 2nd team could smoke these guys" even against good teams? The coaches might teach you some things and develop a plan but nothing develops intesity and drive like the guy between you and the basket (and I say this as a coach who has coached athletes to national championships in 3 different sports). The guys Pastner has had so far are not as good as the guys Cal had during the run. And they still won't be even next year. I do think next year you will see a whole new level of intensity because top to bottom everyone can challenge everyone.

Are we really comparing a guy who took a bunch of Freshman and won a national championship to a guy who hasn't won an NIT game yet in four years with five star recruits?

SMFH!!!!!!!!!!!

That team was not all freshmen and the freshmen that were part of the team were certainly were not just "a bunch of freshmen." How many of them were NBA first round picks? By the way, Pastner has won a NIT game (over St. John's). He barely lost to a #5 seed as a #12 seed in his second season as a coach and he lost to a #9 seed in an 8/9 game. Not exactly some sort of humiliating disgrace. Some of you act as though Pastner's record at Memphis is down there with Moe Iba and Tic Price.

KY's 2011-12 national championship starting roster

Starting lineup: Anthony Davis, C, FR; Terrence Jones, PF, SO; Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, SF, FR; Doron Lamb, SG, SO; Marquis Teague, PG, FR

Some point to the leadership of senior, backup SF Darius Miller as a key to KY's successful season.

I never said they were all freshman. I said a bunch of freshman. Three freshman starters is a bunch of freshman in my book.

(01-14-2013 11:21 PM)bcspiker Wrote:  OK. Since Elliot Williams didn't have the benifit of Cal's or JP's coaching during his first year of college (though he did manage to get some good ideas from some hack coach at lets see .... DUKE!!), I'll ask you just one question. If he is as good as all those first rounders that Call has had both here and at Kentucky, why did he come here after Duke and not just go straight to the NBA where he can make huge money and get the best possible care for his sick mother? BTW your other 2 examples were not "1 and dones" either.

(01-14-2013 11:12 PM)Chi-TownTiger Wrote:  Who is truely a "1 and done" automatic that JP has gotten? Your question actually makes my point for me.


Will Barton, Adonis Thomas, Elliot Williams.

Elliot was as effective his one year at Memphis as Tyreke was...I don't know how anyone can argue that. Whether he played anywhere else first has nothing to do with how he performed here his one year. Isn't this discussion about talent and college performance.

(01-14-2013 09:04 PM)Atlanta Wrote:  Couldn't agree more. This was essentially going to be my response to a recent thread about how Memphis seems unable to hold a big lead. I believe it has everything to do with not playing a tough conference schedule where you have to come ready to play every minute of the game. And I agree it has everything to do with a poor tournament preparation which has proven our demise over the last several years.

I agree,these players know Memphis' history in Cusa,they know we've been killing these schools for years.They gotta feel like they're playing their little brothers.No comp makes you lazy.

(01-14-2013 09:39 PM)Tiger Babs Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 09:35 PM)JMSTiger Wrote:  The difference between those Calipari teams and the Pastner teams is that Calipari's teams would usually win several big games during their non-conference slate while also rolling through C-USA, thus garnering either a #1 or #2 seed and making it easier to get the winning rolling in the Dance against first a crappy opponent, then a slightly better one and then the good ones.

Pastner's teams struggle against the quality non-conference opponents and lose three or so C-USA games and get a poor seeding, thus they have to start out against a quality opponent in the Dance, making it much more difficult to get rolling and advance.

This is obvious. The only difference in the Cal and Pastner eras is Cal and Pastner. One could win big games, the other can't. Has nothing to do with schedules.

No difference at all ... except for DRose, CDR, Tyreke. Josh has had only 1 1st round pick and that was his 1st year. Cal had 2 NBA rookies of the year and later a NBA MVP. Yeah basically the same talent.

(01-14-2013 11:36 PM)macphil30 Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 09:04 PM)Atlanta Wrote:  Couldn't agree more. This was essentially going to be my response to a recent thread about how Memphis seems unable to hold a big lead. I believe it has everything to do with not playing a tough conference schedule where you have to come ready to play every minute of the game. And I agree it has everything to do with a poor tournament preparation which has proven our demise over the last several years.

I agree,these players know Memphis' history in Cusa,they know we've been killing these schools for years.They gotta feel like they're playing their little brothers.No comp makes you lazy.

Honestly I think it has more to do with approach...

Cal was very negative and would always harp on mistakes after wins...Paster looks for positives. I feel guys are more apt to get comfortable when they are getting patted on the back. Paster was over the top happy after the win over UT when in actuality it wasn't really a great win and we didn't perform up to our abilities...Alot of teachable moments in that game that weren't even talked about that showed right back up in the next game.

Surely we can get this thread up to 100 replies by midnight!

I would argue that both could score and defend but because of his physical nature, Tyreke made whoever defended him a more tired and worse player over the coarse of a game. In the end, this means the other team scores less points. EW did have a lot less help than Tyreke did though.

(01-14-2013 11:32 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 11:21 PM)bcspiker Wrote:  OK. Since Elliot Williams didn't have the benifit of Cal's or JP's coaching during his first year of college (though he did manage to get some good ideas from some hack coach at lets see .... DUKE!!), I'll ask you just one question. If he is as good as all those first rounders that Call has had both here and at Kentucky, why did he come here after Duke and not just go straight to the NBA where he can make huge money and get the best possible care for his sick mother? BTW your other 2 examples were not "1 and dones" either.

(01-14-2013 11:12 PM)Chi-TownTiger Wrote:  Who is truely a "1 and done" automatic that JP has gotten? Your question actually makes my point for me.


Will Barton, Adonis Thomas, Elliot Williams.

Elliot was as effective his one year at Memphis as Tyreke was...I don't know how anyone can argue that. Whether he played anywhere else first has nothing to do with how he performed here his one year.

So, Pastner is about to be pushed out? That is gonna work out well

(01-14-2013 11:21 PM)bcspiker Wrote:  OK. Since Elliot Williams didn't have the benifit of Cal's or JP's coaching during his first year of college (though he did manage to get some good ideas from some hack coach at lets see .... DUKE!!), I'll ask you just one question. If he is as good as all those first rounders that Call has had both here and at Kentucky, why did he come here after Duke and not just go straight to the NBA where he can make huge money and get the best possible care for his sick mother?e.

I'm guessing probably because in that one season at Duke he averaged only 4.2 points, 2.3 rebounds, had 23 assists and 21 steals, and shot 44.1 percent from the field, 25 percent from the three-point land and 50 percent from the foul line. He started only 12 games with 11 at the end of the season (including the NCAA Tournament).

(01-14-2013 11:22 PM)Chi-TownTiger Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 11:18 PM)OneShiningMoment Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 10:55 PM)JMSTiger Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 10:51 PM)Chi-TownTiger Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 10:47 PM)bcspiker Wrote:  Yes he would have. Everyone forgets the added benifit that having some great players on your team like AA, Rose and Evans creates. Everyone else on your team has to practice against them every day. This makes everyone better (especially on defense) and allows for an intensity that can not be replicated in our conference period. How many times during that era did we sit there an say "our 2nd team could smoke these guys" even against good teams? The coaches might teach you some things and develop a plan but nothing develops intesity and drive like the guy between you and the basket (and I say this as a coach who has coached athletes to national championships in 3 different sports). The guys Pastner has had so far are not as good as the guys Cal had during the run. And they still won't be even next year. I do think next year you will see a whole new level of intensity because top to bottom everyone can challenge everyone.

Are we really comparing a guy who took a bunch of Freshman and won a national championship to a guy who hasn't won an NIT game yet in four years with five star recruits?

SMFH!!!!!!!!!!!

That team was not all freshmen and the freshmen that were part of the team were certainly were not just "a bunch of freshmen." How many of them were NBA first round picks? By the way, Pastner has won a NIT game (over St. John's). He barely lost to a #5 seed as a #12 seed in his second season as a coach and he lost to a #9 seed in an 8/9 game. Not exactly some sort of humiliating disgrace. Some of you act as though Pastner's record at Memphis is down there with Moe Iba and Tic Price.

KY's 2011-12 national championship starting roster

Starting lineup: Anthony Davis, C, FR; Terrence Jones, PF, SO; Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, SF, FR; Doron Lamb, SG, SO; Marquis Teague, PG, FR

Some point to the leadership of senior, backup SF Darius Miller as a key to KY's successful season.

I never said they were all freshman. I said a bunch of freshman. Three freshman starters is a bunch of freshman in my book.

we just have a different definition of "bunch". When I read bunch, I think of a group as a whole, such as a bunch of bananas.

(01-14-2013 11:49 PM)OneShiningMoment Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 11:21 PM)bcspiker Wrote:  OK. Since Elliot Williams didn't have the benifit of Cal's or JP's coaching during his first year of college (though he did manage to get some good ideas from some hack coach at lets see .... DUKE!!), I'll ask you just one question. If he is as good as all those first rounders that Call has had both here and at Kentucky, why did he come here after Duke and not just go straight to the NBA where he can make huge money and get the best possible care for his sick mother?e.

I'm guessing probably because in that one season at Duke he averaged only 4.2 points, 2.3 rebounds, had 23 assists and 21 steals, and shot 44.1 percent from the field, 25 percent from the three-point land and 50 percent from the foul line. He started only 12 games with 11 at the end of the season (including the NCAA Tournament).

Can we say Pastner got more out of Elliott Williams than Coach K.

(01-14-2013 10:51 PM)Chi-TownTiger Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 10:47 PM)bcspiker Wrote:  Yes he would have. Everyone forgets the added benifit that having some great players on your team like AA, Rose and Evans creates. Everyone else on your team has to practice against them every day. This makes everyone better (especially on defense) and allows for an intensity that can not be replicated in our conference period. How many times during that era did we sit there an say "our 2nd team could smoke these guys" even against good teams? The coaches might teach you some things and develop a plan but nothing develops intesity and drive like the guy between you and the basket (and I say this as a coach who has coached athletes to national championships in 3 different sports). The guys Pastner has had so far are not as good as the guys Cal had during the run. And they still won't be even next year. I do think next year you will see a whole new level of intensity because top to bottom everyone can challenge everyone.

(01-14-2013 09:47 PM)Latilleon Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 09:39 PM)JMSTiger Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 09:25 PM)Tiger Babs Wrote:  Are you kidding? Cal had 2 straight Elite 8's, a title game appearance and a Sweet 16. That's 4 runs in this exact same conference. And oh yeah, he won 65 straight CUSA games to boot.

It easier to do such things when you have a first team All-American (CDR), one of the best all-around players in Tiger history (Anderson), a top pick in the draft (Rose) followed by a lottery pick in the draft (Evans). Pastner has talented teams, but they are not at the same level of Calipari's last four seasons.

But they are still beyond anything else in the conference. Would Cal have lost any conference games in 11,12, & 13 with the same rosters that Pastner has had?

Are we really comparing a guy who took a bunch of Freshman and won a national championship to a guy who hasn't won an NIT game yet in four years with five star recruits?

SMFH!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes Cal worked miracles with those 6 1st round draft picks.

(01-14-2013 11:56 PM)cvilletiger Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 10:51 PM)Chi-TownTiger Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 10:47 PM)bcspiker Wrote:  Yes he would have. Everyone forgets the added benifit that having some great players on your team like AA, Rose and Evans creates. Everyone else on your team has to practice against them every day. This makes everyone better (especially on defense) and allows for an intensity that can not be replicated in our conference period. How many times during that era did we sit there an say "our 2nd team could smoke these guys" even against good teams? The coaches might teach you some things and develop a plan but nothing develops intesity and drive like the guy between you and the basket (and I say this as a coach who has coached athletes to national championships in 3 different sports). The guys Pastner has had so far are not as good as the guys Cal had during the run. And they still won't be even next year. I do think next year you will see a whole new level of intensity because top to bottom everyone can challenge everyone.

(01-14-2013 09:47 PM)Latilleon Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 09:39 PM)JMSTiger Wrote:  It easier to do such things when you have a first team All-American (CDR), one of the best all-around players in Tiger history (Anderson), a top pick in the draft (Rose) followed by a lottery pick in the draft (Evans). Pastner has talented teams, but they are not at the same level of Calipari's last four seasons.

But they are still beyond anything else in the conference. Would Cal have lost any conference games in 11,12, & 13 with the same rosters that Pastner has had?

Are we really comparing a guy who took a bunch of Freshman and won a national championship to a guy who hasn't won an NIT game yet in four years with five star recruits?

SMFH!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes Cal worked miracles with those 6 1st round draft picks.

Bottom line if Josh doesn't advance this year or next year he should be gone...It is very possible Josh will never have more talent on its roster than he does next year and if he cant advance with that it is likely he never will.

(01-14-2013 11:59 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 11:56 PM)cvilletiger Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 10:51 PM)Chi-TownTiger Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 10:47 PM)bcspiker Wrote:  Yes he would have. Everyone forgets the added benifit that having some great players on your team like AA, Rose and Evans creates. Everyone else on your team has to practice against them every day. This makes everyone better (especially on defense) and allows for an intensity that can not be replicated in our conference period. How many times during that era did we sit there an say "our 2nd team could smoke these guys" even against good teams? The coaches might teach you some things and develop a plan but nothing develops intesity and drive like the guy between you and the basket (and I say this as a coach who has coached athletes to national championships in 3 different sports). The guys Pastner has had so far are not as good as the guys Cal had during the run. And they still won't be even next year. I do think next year you will see a whole new level of intensity because top to bottom everyone can challenge everyone.


[quote='Latilleon' pid='8836094' dateline='1358218029']

But they are still beyond anything else in the conference. Would Cal have lost any conference games in 11,12, & 13 with the same rosters that Pastner has had?

Are we really comparing a guy who took a bunch of Freshman and won a national championship to a guy who hasn't won an NIT game yet in four years with five star recruits?

SMFH!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes Cal worked miracles with those 6 1st round draft picks.

Bottom line if Josh doesn't advance this year or next year he should be gone...It is very possible Josh will never have more talent on its roster than he does next year and if he cant advance with that it is likely he never will.
[/quo

I think next years conference play will tell us a lot. I think that is more of a barometer than a tourney. Anything can happen in one game.

(01-14-2013 11:19 PM)Chi-TownTiger Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 11:14 PM)NTMB Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 11:12 PM)Chi-TownTiger Wrote:  Who is truely a "1 and done" automatic that JP has gotten? Your question actually makes my point for me.


Will Barton, Adonis Thomas, Elliot Williams.

One out of 3 ain't too bad.

Barton was the 9th rated player coming out of High School. I think Elliot was 11th. Any five star is a player who could have gone to the NBA after their first year.

The ONE you are referring hasn't panned out to well. I doubt he gets drafted right now.

Bolded statement is not accurate.

Criteria for drafting NBA players are not the same as comparing high school players to one another.

(01-14-2013 09:39 PM)JMSTiger Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 09:25 PM)Tiger Babs Wrote:  Are you kidding? Cal had 2 straight Elite 8's, a title game appearance and a Sweet 16. That's 4 runs in this exact same conference. And oh yeah, he won 65 straight CUSA games to boot.

It easier to do such things when you have a first team All-American (CDR), one of the best all-around players in Tiger history (Anderson), a top pick in the draft (Rose) followed by a lottery pick in the draft (Evans). Pastner has talented teams, but they are not at the same level of Calipari's last four seasons.

I agree 100%....wish more understood this.

(01-14-2013 11:03 PM)TigerTimmy Wrote:  Babs = Latilleon

I was trying to figure out who this is.

(01-15-2013 05:55 AM)missjtiger Wrote:  

(01-14-2013 11:03 PM)TigerTimmy Wrote:  Babs = Latilleon

I was trying to figure out who this is.

Latilleon doesn't have to make fake accounts to make points.

Latty stands by his own opinions.