(01-04-2026 03:08 AM)TripleA Wrote:  Ball boy trying to educate JR. That's rich.

I wonder if Balls gets paid to post now since he's been here for a while.

Quote:JONATHAN TURLEY: Why capture of Maduro didn't require approval from Congress
Venezuelan president faces 2020 drug trafficking indictment in New York following extraordinary Saturday raid
By Jonathan Turley Fox News
Published January 3, 2026 8:32am EST

Maduro, wife captured by US in 'large-scale' strike on Venezuela
Eric Shawn is joined by Fox News correspondents Chanley Painter and Lucas Tomlinson to discuss details of the capture of Venezuelan Leader Nicolás Maduro and his wife by U.S. Special Forces in the early morning of Jan. 3rd, 2026.

In an extraordinary military operation, the United States launched a large-scale military operation in Caracas, Venezuela, early Saturday, with Special Forces seizing President Nicolás Maduro and his wife. There is a pending 2020 indictment of Maduro in the Southern District of New York, where he is expected to be taken to face prosecution.

The operation comes not long after the 37th anniversary of the capture of Manuel Antonio Noriega on Dec. 20, 1989. Noriega was convicted of drug and money laundering offenses and sentenced to 40 years in prison. He was tried in Miami.


Acting Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro waves to supporters as he leaves after voting for the successor to the late President Hugo Chavez, in Caracas on April 14, 2013. (Carlos Garcia Rawlins/Reuters)

Maduro was indicted in a four-count superseding indictment with Diosdado Cabello Rondón, 56, head of Venezuela’s National Constituent Assembly; Hugo Armando Carvajal Barrios aka "El Pollo," 59, former director of military intelligence; Clíver Antonio Alcalá Cordones, 58, former General in the Venezuelan armed forces; Luciano Marín Arango aka "Ivan Marquez," 64, a member of the FARC’s Secretariat, which is the FARC’s highest leadership body; and Seuxis Paucis Hernández Solarte aka "Jesús Santrich," 53, a member of the FARC’s Central High Command, which is the FARC’s second-highest leadership body.

This operation will be justified as executing the criminal warrant and responding to an international drug cartel, a very similar legal framework to the one used against Noriega. There is precedent supporting that earlier operation, which will now be used to defend the actions in Venezuela.

Here is part of the earlier description from the Justice Department of the indicted conduct:

"Maduro helped manage and ultimately lead the Cartel of the Suns, a Venezuelan drug-trafficking organization comprised of high-ranking Venezuelan officials. As he gained power in Venezuela, Maduro participated in a corrupt and violent narco-terrorism conspiracy with the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC), a designated Foreign Terrorist Organization. Maduro negotiated multi-ton shipments of FARC-produced cocaine; directed the Cartel of the Suns to provide military-grade weapons to the FARC; coordinated with narcotics traffickers in Honduras and other countries to facilitate large-scale drug trafficking; and solicited assistance from FARC leadership in training an unsanctioned militia group that functioned, in essence, as an armed forces unit for the Cartel of the Suns. In March 2020, Maduro was charged in the Southern District of New York for narco-terrorism, conspiracy to import cocaine, possession of machine guns and destructive devices, and conspiracy to possess machine guns and destructive devices."


Demonstrators confront police as they protest against the government of President Nicolás Maduro in Caracas, on Feb. 22, 2014. (Carlos Garcia Rawlins/Reuters)

Democratic members quickly denounced the operation as unlawful. They may want to review past cases, particularly the decision related to the Noriega prosecution after his capture by the administration of President George H.W. Bush.

"Without authorization from Congress, and with the vast majority of Americans opposed to military action, Trump just launched an unjustified, illegal strike on Venezuela. He says we don’t have enough money for healthcare for Americans—but somehow we have unlimited funds for war?" wrote Rep. Jim McGovern, D-Mass.

Trump does not need congressional approval for this type of operation. Presidents, including Democratic presidents, have launched lethal attacks regularly against individuals. President Barack Obama killed an American citizen under this "kill list" policy. If Obama can vaporize an American citizen without even a criminal charge, Trump can capture a foreign citizen with a pending criminal indictment without prior congressional approval.

Ordinarily, the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations and other international agreements require the United States to notify the embassy of a foreign national arrested and held in the United States. Notice seems a tad superfluous in this case.

In his appeal, Noriega argued that his arrest violated international law under the head-of-state immunity doctrine. The district court rejected Noriega’s head-of-state immunity claim because the United States government never recognized Noriega as Panama’s legitimate ruler — an argument that will be made in the Maduro prosecution.

The United States for the Eleventh Circuit also rejected the immunity claim.

Noriega also argued that his capture violated the Treaty Providing for the Extradition of Criminals, May 25, 1904, United States of America-Republic of Panama, 34 Stat. 2851 ("U.S.-Panama Extradition Treaty"). The Supreme Court’s decision in United States v. Alvarez-Machain, 504 U.S. 655 (1992), however, was found to bar this argument. The issue was whether he was abducted to the United States with a superseding extradition treaty. The Eleventh Circuit held:

The article of the U.S.-Panama Extradition Treaty upon which Noriega relies for his extradition treaty claim contains almost the same language as the provision of the U.S.-Mexico Extradition Treaty at issue in Alvarez-Machain. See U.S.-Panama Extradition Treaty, art. 5 ("Neither of the contracting parties shall be bound to deliver up its own citizen or subject․").

Under Alvarez-Machain, to prevail on an extradition treaty claim, a defendant must demonstrate, by reference to the express language of a treaty and/or the established practice thereunder, that the United States affirmatively agreed not to seize foreign nationals from the territory of its treaty partner. Noriega has not carried this burden, and therefore, his claim fails.

The Noriega case offers ample support for the Trump administration, which has had an outstanding arrest warrant for over five years. He is not viewed as the duly elected leader of Venezuela and has been tied to a criminal drug cartel.

The action will also have a major impact on foreign policy. The Monroe Doctrine just became the Trump Doctrine. This action not only confronted Venezuela but also Cuba, which was supplying the security around Maduro. Presumably, Cuban security may have been involved in the firefight. While cutting off vital oil to Cuba, the Trump Administration just delivered a blow against the Cuban regime — arguably one of the most stinging defeats since crushing the Cuban forces in Grenada in 1983.

Legally, Trump has the upper hand in this case. Maduro will replay the arguments from the Noriega case. However, he presents an even weaker case on the merits under the controlling precedent than did Noriega.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/jonathan...m-congress

It's also worth noting Venezuela held elections for the first time in several years and over seventy percent voted for Maduro's opponent, but he refused to leave. (Didn't leftists accuse Trump of doing the same thing after the 2020 election, which has been exposed more and more as fraudulent? Why, yes. Yes, they did.)

Also, I think Trump was saying Machado didn't have enough support and respect in the Venezuelan government as it stands now. I could be wrong on that.

Finally, it's rather telling that the left held all these "No Kings!" protests only for Trump to remove an actual dictator and for them to be livid. They don't care about "no kings"; they just Trump. That's all this is. And they're trying to lecture Venezuelans who are celebrating this, only for the Venezuelans celebrating to tell them they don't know what they're talking about. (And of course, the left doesn't know what they're talking about.)

(01-04-2026 04:58 AM)andybible1995 Wrote:  

(01-04-2026 03:08 AM)TripleA Wrote:  Ball boy trying to educate JR. That's rich.

I wonder if Balls gets paid to post now since he's been here for a while.

Yeah I get paid to post on a college sports forum to 2 dozen boomers and your tortured soul.

George is real concerned with turning around the local redneck votes around Memphis and sent me to do the job

Liberals really are clueless

Saw someone repost this on Facebook. (A guy named Art Seeberger posted this.)

Quote:Obama went into Lybia without congressional approval to oust Ghadafi and protect citizens there. Lybia descended into chaos.
Obama greased bin Laden without congressional approval. That was good.
Biden retaliated for the Americans being killed during the Afghan evacuation by bombing a dude in his car carrying water. No congressional approval.
Clinton bombed a pill factory without approval.
Ever see "Blackhawk Down"? Clinton did that. No approval.
Carter tried rescuing hostages in Iran.
Article 2 of the US Constitution states that the President can order one-off military air strikes without congressional approval. It would've [been] instantly leaked by Dem had he done that.
Maduro is single-handedly responsible for shipping drugs that kill 100k Americans per year.
Maduro received only 30% of the vote in his last sham of an election. Refused to go.
Maduro was indicted in the US in '20. He's a fugitive.

These are not my opinions. These are simply facts.

Now what will happen IN my opinion is that the Left will get some District Judge, funded and chosen by Soros, to order Trump to release him. It will then be immediately escalated to SCOTUS for an emergency ruling, which will overturn the lower courts.

The Left will impeach Trump if, God forbid, Hakeem Jeffries is Speaker.

I think the last part cuts off, but the fact remains. This wasn't unconstitutional, as the Democrats claim. They just didn't like not being able to leak it before it happened, which, if they had been able to leak it would've resulted in a long, arduous task, putting the lives of our military personnel involved in the interdiction in danger. All because the left hates Trump.

One last thing: Can someone tell ballgargler I'm actually a Millennial? I was born in 1982, after all.

(01-03-2026 10:41 PM)banker Wrote:  

(01-03-2026 09:56 PM)ballantyneapp Wrote:  

(01-03-2026 07:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(01-03-2026 07:03 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(01-03-2026 06:51 PM)ballantyneapp Wrote:  Trump doesn’t want Russian influence- unless it’s to help him get elected.

What you’re describing is mercantilism (which the heritage foundation subscribes to) which represents a significant regression in humanity, but tracks with the modern Republican Party.

yo, son, not only do ewe have mercantilism wrong as we now operate in the fiat (by itself makes it moot), but boy oh boy oh soy ewe are fk'n with the wrong mothertrucker ... JR will make ewe look sillier than that Bozo .gif...

please, keep pos(t)in'....

LOL! The most regressive thing to humanity is an ideology which takes from the productive to give to the nonproductive. When a leftist cites humanity, it is merely a sanitized way of saying the collective instead of the citizen. Citizens are individuals who share rights. Humanity is a formless identity which is spoken on behalf of by dictators and bureaucrats who want to amass power over the citizens.

There is no more regressive form of government than communism, whether Marxist or Maoist only varies by the slightest degree in which is touted as the oppressed group, the poor versus middle class and wealthy, or a particular racial group claiming special rights over others.

I would add that the destruction of private business and the perks purchased by corporate multi-nationals have brought another threat to the scene, a threat from a fascist use of government by the corporate class.

When we get through with the jackassery of the left it will be time to deal with the bullying of the corporate elite.

It’s really a shame JR, you’re almost there. Of course you are weakening your position by building up several straw men that nobody advocates here like Marxism and Maoism. I’ll put it in your parlance: we’re regressing for ~1 billion individuals in our “sphere”

The problem with your worldview is that you’re half correctly diagnosing the problem (corpos) but you’re attributing it to the wrong group. Of course you are going to have to come to grips with the fact that the corporate class owns Trump too and is calling the shots here via a vis Venezuela. Im willing to bet the us pays for some infrastructure projects in Venezuela and then tirns it over to the oil companies, socialize the costs privatize the profits baby! The rest of your post is just typical class warfare bs the looting class parrots out to people so they can continue to loot the country.

The fog of hatred really distorts one’s vision. Explain how Trump’s tariffs have enriched the corporate elite at the expense of the treasury of the country? Explain how his assault on HB-1 visas and cheap illegal labor has benefitted corporations at the expense of American workers. But somehow you view this move as Trump being a puppet for corporations and willing to expend US taxpayer money for corporate profit?

Venezuela stole billions in assets from American companies. We let that go for decades. Trump looks at the most simple answer for a problem. You will construe that comment as yeah, simple is his limit, but it’s really the most direct path. What will happen is he will return the oil company facilities to them. They will pay for necessary infrastructure upgrades. This will increase the oil supply for us, which will reduce prices. A percentage of profits, most likely the same structure that existed before seizure, the framework that provided a great standard of living for Venezuelans, will be reestablished. He will also require the oil companies to give the US first dibs on production, which means he can cut off shipments to China as a negotiating tool. This also is a roadblock to China’s effort to increase South American influence.

What the left hasn’t figured out about Trump is that he is a man that is solely focused on his legacy and redemption at this point. He’s not unlike Carnegie toward the end of his life, trying desperately to redeem himself in the eyes of God. His vision for doing that will drive everything he does and being a puppet to corporate America isn’t part of that.

You can argue the validity of his vision for that, but that really doesn’t matter because you won’t change his thought process. He believes restoring America is the number one job. He believes ending wars and reducing crime is #2. Everything flows through only those two prisms.

Tariffs enrich corporate elite by increasing the tax burden on the lower and middle class to pay for more tax abatements or credits for corporations and VHNW individuals.

H1bs are still necessary per Trump himself and he’s allowing illegal labor in industries as lobbied.

Trumps goals are to enrich himself, family and cronies, get revenge on his political enemies and I suspect to do what he’s told by his handlers

lol "Trump gets to enrich himself... blah blah blah."

My God, don't you ever stop? Answer: No, you don't, because you're a typical leftist who insists that Russia colluded to get Trump elected in 2016 when that actually didn't happen, and that he's the most notorious grifter of all time when that was in fact Biden. Oh, and let's not forget the fact Trump left the White House in 2021 with less money than he had when he first entered the Oval Office in 2017. But hey, don't let facts stop you now, right?

(01-04-2026 08:35 AM)ballantyneapp Wrote:  

(01-03-2026 10:41 PM)banker Wrote:  

(01-03-2026 09:56 PM)ballantyneapp Wrote:  

(01-03-2026 07:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(01-03-2026 07:03 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  yo, son, not only do ewe have mercantilism wrong as we now operate in the fiat (by itself makes it moot), but boy oh boy oh soy ewe are fk'n with the wrong mothertrucker ... JR will make ewe look sillier than that Bozo .gif...

please, keep pos(t)in'....

LOL! The most regressive thing to humanity is an ideology which takes from the productive to give to the nonproductive. When a leftist cites humanity, it is merely a sanitized way of saying the collective instead of the citizen. Citizens are individuals who share rights. Humanity is a formless identity which is spoken on behalf of by dictators and bureaucrats who want to amass power over the citizens.

There is no more regressive form of government than communism, whether Marxist or Maoist only varies by the slightest degree in which is touted as the oppressed group, the poor versus middle class and wealthy, or a particular racial group claiming special rights over others.

I would add that the destruction of private business and the perks purchased by corporate multi-nationals have brought another threat to the scene, a threat from a fascist use of government by the corporate class.

When we get through with the jackassery of the left it will be time to deal with the bullying of the corporate elite.

It’s really a shame JR, you’re almost there. Of course you are weakening your position by building up several straw men that nobody advocates here like Marxism and Maoism. I’ll put it in your parlance: we’re regressing for ~1 billion individuals in our “sphere”

The problem with your worldview is that you’re half correctly diagnosing the problem (corpos) but you’re attributing it to the wrong group. Of course you are going to have to come to grips with the fact that the corporate class owns Trump too and is calling the shots here via a vis Venezuela. Im willing to bet the us pays for some infrastructure projects in Venezuela and then tirns it over to the oil companies, socialize the costs privatize the profits baby! The rest of your post is just typical class warfare bs the looting class parrots out to people so they can continue to loot the country.

The fog of hatred really distorts one’s vision. Explain how Trump’s tariffs have enriched the corporate elite at the expense of the treasury of the country? Explain how his assault on HB-1 visas and cheap illegal labor has benefitted corporations at the expense of American workers. But somehow you view this move as Trump being a puppet for corporations and willing to expend US taxpayer money for corporate profit?

Venezuela stole billions in assets from American companies. We let that go for decades. Trump looks at the most simple answer for a problem. You will construe that comment as yeah, simple is his limit, but it’s really the most direct path. What will happen is he will return the oil company facilities to them. They will pay for necessary infrastructure upgrades. This will increase the oil supply for us, which will reduce prices. A percentage of profits, most likely the same structure that existed before seizure, the framework that provided a great standard of living for Venezuelans, will be reestablished. He will also require the oil companies to give the US first dibs on production, which means he can cut off shipments to China as a negotiating tool. This also is a roadblock to China’s effort to increase South American influence.

What the left hasn’t figured out about Trump is that he is a man that is solely focused on his legacy and redemption at this point. He’s not unlike Carnegie toward the end of his life, trying desperately to redeem himself in the eyes of God. His vision for doing that will drive everything he does and being a puppet to corporate America isn’t part of that.

You can argue the validity of his vision for that, but that really doesn’t matter because you won’t change his thought process. He believes restoring America is the number one job. He believes ending wars and reducing crime is #2. Everything flows through only those two prisms.

Tariffs enrich corporate elite by increasing the tax burden on the lower and middle class to pay for more tax abatements or credits for corporations and VHNW individuals.

H1bs are still necessary per Trump himself and he’s allowing illegal labor in industries as lobbied.

Trumps goals are to enrich himself, family and cronies, get revenge on his political enemies and I suspect to do what he’s told by his handlers

what do you call $3.5million wired from the wife of moscows mayor to hunter biden's firm?

That looks like extortion to me, UofMstateU. Either that or a "finder's fee" as I'm sure someone on the left would put it.

(01-04-2026 08:42 AM)GeminiCoog Wrote:  lol "Trump gets to enrich himself... blah blah blah."

My God, don't you ever stop? Answer: No, you don't, because you're a typical leftist who insists that Russia colluded to get Trump elected in 2016 when that actually didn't happen, and that he's the most notorious grifter of all time when that was in fact Biden. Oh, and let's not forget the fact Trump left the White House in 2021 with less money than he had when he first entered the Oval Office in 2017. But hey, don't let facts stop you now, right?

Trump created multiple crypto coins days before taking office, including a stable coin. He made $1B off of that crypto venture while President. He is 100% executing a money grab, and creating an easy way to take influence money.

(01-04-2026 08:53 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(01-04-2026 08:35 AM)ballantyneapp Wrote:  

(01-03-2026 10:41 PM)banker Wrote:  

(01-03-2026 09:56 PM)ballantyneapp Wrote:  

(01-03-2026 07:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  LOL! The most regressive thing to humanity is an ideology which takes from the productive to give to the nonproductive. When a leftist cites humanity, it is merely a sanitized way of saying the collective instead of the citizen. Citizens are individuals who share rights. Humanity is a formless identity which is spoken on behalf of by dictators and bureaucrats who want to amass power over the citizens.

There is no more regressive form of government than communism, whether Marxist or Maoist only varies by the slightest degree in which is touted as the oppressed group, the poor versus middle class and wealthy, or a particular racial group claiming special rights over others.

I would add that the destruction of private business and the perks purchased by corporate multi-nationals have brought another threat to the scene, a threat from a fascist use of government by the corporate class.

When we get through with the jackassery of the left it will be time to deal with the bullying of the corporate elite.

It’s really a shame JR, you’re almost there. Of course you are weakening your position by building up several straw men that nobody advocates here like Marxism and Maoism. I’ll put it in your parlance: we’re regressing for ~1 billion individuals in our “sphere”

The problem with your worldview is that you’re half correctly diagnosing the problem (corpos) but you’re attributing it to the wrong group. Of course you are going to have to come to grips with the fact that the corporate class owns Trump too and is calling the shots here via a vis Venezuela. Im willing to bet the us pays for some infrastructure projects in Venezuela and then tirns it over to the oil companies, socialize the costs privatize the profits baby! The rest of your post is just typical class warfare bs the looting class parrots out to people so they can continue to loot the country.

The fog of hatred really distorts one’s vision. Explain how Trump’s tariffs have enriched the corporate elite at the expense of the treasury of the country? Explain how his assault on HB-1 visas and cheap illegal labor has benefitted corporations at the expense of American workers. But somehow you view this move as Trump being a puppet for corporations and willing to expend US taxpayer money for corporate profit?

Venezuela stole billions in assets from American companies. We let that go for decades. Trump looks at the most simple answer for a problem. You will construe that comment as yeah, simple is his limit, but it’s really the most direct path. What will happen is he will return the oil company facilities to them. They will pay for necessary infrastructure upgrades. This will increase the oil supply for us, which will reduce prices. A percentage of profits, most likely the same structure that existed before seizure, the framework that provided a great standard of living for Venezuelans, will be reestablished. He will also require the oil companies to give the US first dibs on production, which means he can cut off shipments to China as a negotiating tool. This also is a roadblock to China’s effort to increase South American influence.

What the left hasn’t figured out about Trump is that he is a man that is solely focused on his legacy and redemption at this point. He’s not unlike Carnegie toward the end of his life, trying desperately to redeem himself in the eyes of God. His vision for doing that will drive everything he does and being a puppet to corporate America isn’t part of that.

You can argue the validity of his vision for that, but that really doesn’t matter because you won’t change his thought process. He believes restoring America is the number one job. He believes ending wars and reducing crime is #2. Everything flows through only those two prisms.

Tariffs enrich corporate elite by increasing the tax burden on the lower and middle class to pay for more tax abatements or credits for corporations and VHNW individuals.

H1bs are still necessary per Trump himself and he’s allowing illegal labor in industries as lobbied.

Trumps goals are to enrich himself, family and cronies, get revenge on his political enemies and I suspect to do what he’s told by his handlers

what do you call $3.5million wired from the wife of moscows mayor to hunter biden's firm?

lol you think I’m going to defend hunter Biden and his obvious peddling? I’m not in a cult I’m not obligated to defend him.

Of course this specific claim was never proven, but other claims have been proven true, wouldn’t surprise me if this one was either.

Although Biden was obviously not in the pocket of Putin during his presidency unlike Trump

He and his family did that because they all got debanked. Blame your fellow leftists for going after Trump, not Trump himself.

But you can't put your TDS aside to see that so back to ignore you both go.

Now tell me how Trump is evil for ousting an actual dictator and illegitimate leader of a country who overwhelmingly voted against him the last time that country held an election and still refused to leave. Come on. I know you can do it because I know you'll find a way.

(01-03-2026 04:08 PM)CrimsonPhantom Wrote:  

(01-03-2026 03:33 PM)maximus Wrote:  Approved

Sent from my SM-S928U using Tapatalk

Dude, I'm all about the butt, but those butts belong to two people, so some poor woman is walking around assless right now. Those butts are too much.

(01-04-2026 08:42 AM)GeminiCoog Wrote:  lol "Trump gets to enrich himself... blah blah blah."

My God, don't you ever stop? Answer: No, you don't, because you're a typical leftist who insists that Russia colluded to get Trump elected in 2016 when that actually didn't happen, and that he's the most notorious grifter of all time when that was in fact Biden. Oh, and let's not forget the fact Trump left the White House in 2021 with less money than he had when he first entered the Oval Office in 2017. But hey, don't let facts stop you now, right?

The dumb azz believes they are scrubbing trump’s name from the Epstein files. He is a window licking retard

I’ll never understand why you guys waste your breath on these idiots.

(01-03-2026 04:08 PM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  

(01-03-2026 03:34 PM)BigTigerMike Wrote:  Everybody has a right to question this military action and US involvement, but to not acknowledge that and be happy for the millions of Venezuelans there and in US and around the world celebrating that this narco-thug who stole an election is no longer in power is quite bizarre

I'm certainly happy Maduro is out of power and Venezuela is better off without him. I'm also impressed with how quickly and efficiently US armed forces were able to get this done.

I just think the whole thing reeks of the nation building BS we went through in the 2000s. We're occupying a nation now and plan on extracting their natural resources and profit off them.

Drugs are the new "weapons of mass destruction".

You don't see the conflict in the first two paragraphs? Either you're happy about Maduro or you aren't. Make up your damn mind.

(01-04-2026 08:17 AM)ballantyneapp Wrote:  

(01-04-2026 04:58 AM)andybible1995 Wrote:  

(01-04-2026 03:08 AM)TripleA Wrote:  Ball boy trying to educate JR. That's rich.

I wonder if Balls gets paid to post now since he's been here for a while.

Yeah I get paid to post on a college sports forum to 2 dozen boomers and your tortured soul.

George is real concerned with turning around the local redneck votes around Memphis and sent me to do the job

Contrary to popular belief amongst you and your leftist cohorts, my soul isn't tortured. I've just come to realize that life sucks, and it's supposed to suck.

Yes, I have anxiety and depression. Am I going to take medicine for either of them.

Why? Because, after doing my own research, I've discovered that medicine that treats anxiety and depression makes them worse.

I find it comical that a leftist like yourself, who's part of one of the most miserable groups of people on Earth, would say that I, a conservative, has a tortured soul.

That says more about you than it does me, balls.

(01-04-2026 08:27 AM)450bench Wrote:  Liberals really are clueless

They're stupid evil people