The unofficial online home for fans of the University of Cincinnati Bearcats. Part of Collegiate Sports Nation (CSN).

(04-04-2023 12:25 AM)ZCat Wrote:  

(04-03-2023 10:33 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  This is great.

Mark says Kenpom tells us UC is going to win a Natty soon.

Ain’t gonna happen.

I think it was OKI that asked was our ’92 FF an aberration? Well that’s a great Q. We went toe to toe with the fab five (Very skilled and tall team). The next year E-8 OT loss to NC. Maybe with that win we could’ve kicked the door down. But it didn’t happen. We rarely got enough high end talent. A lot of our recruits were from junior college or someone with some flaws / recruiting issues that we took. It’s just tough to break into even a consistent top 15 program. We can dream I guess. It’s just been so long since ‘92 or even our last E-8.

Truth be told we are in a region that is oversaturated with teams and not enough high end talent in "The State of Cincinnati" like we do in FB. We have UC, XU, Dayton, UK, Louisville, OSU, IU, Purdue, WKY, NKY, Wright State, Miami U, all within a couple hundred miles. Add another 100 and throw in Pitt, WVU, Michigan, Notre Dame and others.

We were good in the late 1950s, 60s and even early 1970s because we were one of the first schools to take black athletes, and we just didn't take 1-2 we were starting 4 and eventually 5. We just don't have that advantage anymore (by the way, this is the same reason why Syracuse was good at FB back in the Jim Brown, Ernie Davis era but now are mediocre in FB).

(04-04-2023 07:54 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 12:25 AM)ZCat Wrote:  

(04-03-2023 10:33 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  This is great.

Mark says Kenpom tells us UC is going to win a Natty soon.

Ain’t gonna happen.

I think it was OKI that asked was our ’92 FF an aberration? Well that’s a great Q. We went toe to toe with the fab five (Very skilled and tall team). The next year E-8 OT loss to NC. Maybe with that win we could’ve kicked the door down. But it didn’t happen. We rarely got enough high end talent. A lot of our recruits were from junior college or someone with some flaws / recruiting issues that we took. It’s just tough to break into even a consistent top 15 program. We can dream I guess. It’s just been so long since ‘92 or even our last E-8.

Truth be told we are in a region that is oversaturated with teams and not enough high end talent in "The State of Cincinnati" like we do in FB. We have UC, XU, Dayton, UK, Louisville, OSU, IU, Purdue, WKY, NKY, Wright State, Miami U, all within a couple hundred miles. Add another 100 and throw in Pitt, WVU, Michigan, Notre Dame and others.

We were good in the late 1950s, 60s and even early 1970s because we were one of the first schools to take black athletes, and we just didn't take 1-2 we were starting 4 and eventually 5. We just don't have that advantage anymore (by the way, this is the same reason why Syracuse was good at FB back in the Jim Brown, Ernie Davis era but now are mediocre in FB).

UConn scoffs at that type of saturation lol.

(04-04-2023 08:49 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 07:54 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 12:25 AM)ZCat Wrote:  

(04-03-2023 10:33 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  This is great.

Mark says Kenpom tells us UC is going to win a Natty soon.

Ain’t gonna happen.

I think it was OKI that asked was our ’92 FF an aberration? Well that’s a great Q. We went toe to toe with the fab five (Very skilled and tall team). The next year E-8 OT loss to NC. Maybe with that win we could’ve kicked the door down. But it didn’t happen. We rarely got enough high end talent. A lot of our recruits were from junior college or someone with some flaws / recruiting issues that we took. It’s just tough to break into even a consistent top 15 program. We can dream I guess. It’s just been so long since ‘92 or even our last E-8.

Truth be told we are in a region that is oversaturated with teams and not enough high end talent in "The State of Cincinnati" like we do in FB. We have UC, XU, Dayton, UK, Louisville, OSU, IU, Purdue, WKY, NKY, Wright State, Miami U, all within a couple hundred miles. Add another 100 and throw in Pitt, WVU, Michigan, Notre Dame and others.

We were good in the late 1950s, 60s and even early 1970s because we were one of the first schools to take black athletes, and we just didn't take 1-2 we were starting 4 and eventually 5. We just don't have that advantage anymore (by the way, this is the same reason why Syracuse was good at FB back in the Jim Brown, Ernie Davis era but now are mediocre in FB).

UConn scoffs at that type of saturation lol.

Yeah but there is more high end talent in NY, NJ, Philly, Baltimore, etc to recruit from.

(04-04-2023 04:01 AM)Former Lurker Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 12:25 AM)ZCat Wrote:  

(04-03-2023 10:33 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  This is great.

Mark says Kenpom tells us UC is going to win a Natty soon.

Ain’t gonna happen.

I think it was OKI that asked was our ’92 FF an aberration? Well that’s a great Q. We went toe to toe with the fab five (Very skilled and tall team). The next year E-8 OT loss to NC. Maybe with that win we could’ve kicked the door down. But it didn’t happen. We rarely got enough high end talent. A lot of our recruits were from junior college or someone with some flaws / recruiting issues that we took. It’s just tough to break into even a consistent top 15 program. We can dream I guess. It’s just been so long since ‘92 or even our last E-8.

Well, the talent was markedly better than anyone since then has been able to land, but you are essentially correct. Several years without a full complement of scholarship players, or an otherwise great team with one position that was below par.

You have to wonder if the outlaw image that Huggins cultivated became self-limiting. For every recruit who wanted to play for the hot new coach at a historically-powerful program, there were probably two who didn’t want to play at UNLV East for Jerry Tarkanian Jr.

UC had the talent to make the Final 4 nearly every year for a decade after 1992, what on earth are you talking about?

(04-04-2023 07:42 AM)Cal1362 Wrote:  Congrats to UConn... well played dominant tourney.
A couple of UConn inspired random thoughts
...has there been a more dominant D1 hoops SCHOOL in the last 30 years or so than UConn? 5 Mens titles and 11 Womens titles over that span
...UConn isn't super consistent, usually only getting to the 2nd round of the Tourney the season after and not even making the tourney 2 seasons after a couple times

Bolded, I think we could live with that inconsistency.

I'm no UCONN fan but what they've done in thirty years is nothing short of remarkable. It begs the question, if that University is willing to commit resources to football, basketball alone could bring the Big 12 massive exposure in the NY/CT/NJ market areas and further Yormark's desire to be the other coast-to-coast conference. Especially if he's able to wrangle some left behinds when the Pac 12 implodes.

(04-04-2023 08:54 AM)levydl Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 04:01 AM)Former Lurker Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 12:25 AM)ZCat Wrote:  

(04-03-2023 10:33 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  This is great.

Mark says Kenpom tells us UC is going to win a Natty soon.

Ain’t gonna happen.

I think it was OKI that asked was our ’92 FF an aberration? Well that’s a great Q. We went toe to toe with the fab five (Very skilled and tall team). The next year E-8 OT loss to NC. Maybe with that win we could’ve kicked the door down. But it didn’t happen. We rarely got enough high end talent. A lot of our recruits were from junior college or someone with some flaws / recruiting issues that we took. It’s just tough to break into even a consistent top 15 program. We can dream I guess. It’s just been so long since ‘92 or even our last E-8.

Well, the talent was markedly better than anyone since then has been able to land, but you are essentially correct. Several years without a full complement of scholarship players, or an otherwise great team with one position that was below par.

You have to wonder if the outlaw image that Huggins cultivated became self-limiting. For every recruit who wanted to play for the hot new coach at a historically-powerful program, there were probably two who didn’t want to play at UNLV East for Jerry Tarkanian Jr.

UC had the talent to make the Final 4 nearly every year for a decade after 1992, what on earth are you talking about?

If bimbo hadn't fired him, Huggins would have brought in Beasley and probably Mayo for another stacked team.

(04-04-2023 08:54 AM)levydl Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 04:01 AM)Former Lurker Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 12:25 AM)ZCat Wrote:  

(04-03-2023 10:33 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  This is great.

Mark says Kenpom tells us UC is going to win a Natty soon.

Ain’t gonna happen.

I think it was OKI that asked was our ’92 FF an aberration? Well that’s a great Q. We went toe to toe with the fab five (Very skilled and tall team). The next year E-8 OT loss to NC. Maybe with that win we could’ve kicked the door down. But it didn’t happen. We rarely got enough high end talent. A lot of our recruits were from junior college or someone with some flaws / recruiting issues that we took. It’s just tough to break into even a consistent top 15 program. We can dream I guess. It’s just been so long since ‘92 or even our last E-8.

Well, the talent was markedly better than anyone since then has been able to land, but you are essentially correct. Several years without a full complement of scholarship players, or an otherwise great team with one position that was below par.

You have to wonder if the outlaw image that Huggins cultivated became self-limiting. For every recruit who wanted to play for the hot new coach at a historically-powerful program, there were probably two who didn’t want to play at UNLV East for Jerry Tarkanian Jr.

UC had the talent to make the Final 4 nearly every year for a decade after 1992, what on earth are you talking about?

Yea, I don't get this revisionist history. UC was a top ten program from 1992 through 2005. The lack of tournament success after 1996 was disappointing (kind of reminded me of Wright's tourney success draught at Villanova before he finally broke through), but UC was getting protected seeds on a regular basis. Had the clear best team in the country one season. Was preseason number 1 another. Earned a 1 seed in another. There is a segment of our fanbase that for some reason looks down on those years more than they should.

(04-04-2023 08:52 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 08:49 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 07:54 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 12:25 AM)ZCat Wrote:  

(04-03-2023 10:33 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  This is great.

Mark says Kenpom tells us UC is going to win a Natty soon.

Ain’t gonna happen.

I think it was OKI that asked was our ’92 FF an aberration? Well that’s a great Q. We went toe to toe with the fab five (Very skilled and tall team). The next year E-8 OT loss to NC. Maybe with that win we could’ve kicked the door down. But it didn’t happen. We rarely got enough high end talent. A lot of our recruits were from junior college or someone with some flaws / recruiting issues that we took. It’s just tough to break into even a consistent top 15 program. We can dream I guess. It’s just been so long since ‘92 or even our last E-8.

Truth be told we are in a region that is oversaturated with teams and not enough high end talent in "The State of Cincinnati" like we do in FB. We have UC, XU, Dayton, UK, Louisville, OSU, IU, Purdue, WKY, NKY, Wright State, Miami U, all within a couple hundred miles. Add another 100 and throw in Pitt, WVU, Michigan, Notre Dame and others.

We were good in the late 1950s, 60s and even early 1970s because we were one of the first schools to take black athletes, and we just didn't take 1-2 we were starting 4 and eventually 5. We just don't have that advantage anymore (by the way, this is the same reason why Syracuse was good at FB back in the Jim Brown, Ernie Davis era but now are mediocre in FB).

UConn scoffs at that type of saturation lol.

Yeah but there is more high end talent in NY, NJ, Philly, Baltimore, etc to recruit from.

True...our region has figured out that football is king unlike the Northeast and upper mid-Atlantic.

(04-04-2023 09:40 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 08:52 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 08:49 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 07:54 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 12:25 AM)ZCat Wrote:  Ain’t gonna happen.

I think it was OKI that asked was our ’92 FF an aberration? Well that’s a great Q. We went toe to toe with the fab five (Very skilled and tall team). The next year E-8 OT loss to NC. Maybe with that win we could’ve kicked the door down. But it didn’t happen. We rarely got enough high end talent. A lot of our recruits were from junior college or someone with some flaws / recruiting issues that we took. It’s just tough to break into even a consistent top 15 program. We can dream I guess. It’s just been so long since ‘92 or even our last E-8.

Truth be told we are in a region that is oversaturated with teams and not enough high end talent in "The State of Cincinnati" like we do in FB. We have UC, XU, Dayton, UK, Louisville, OSU, IU, Purdue, WKY, NKY, Wright State, Miami U, all within a couple hundred miles. Add another 100 and throw in Pitt, WVU, Michigan, Notre Dame and others.

We were good in the late 1950s, 60s and even early 1970s because we were one of the first schools to take black athletes, and we just didn't take 1-2 we were starting 4 and eventually 5. We just don't have that advantage anymore (by the way, this is the same reason why Syracuse was good at FB back in the Jim Brown, Ernie Davis era but now are mediocre in FB).

UConn scoffs at that type of saturation lol.

Yeah but there is more high end talent in NY, NJ, Philly, Baltimore, etc to recruit from.

True...our region has figured out that football is king unlike the Northeast and upper mid-Atlantic.

UConn's region has way fewer teams vying for elite talent.

New England has 15 million people and 3 power basketball programs. Nearby NY & NJ have 31 million people and 4 power programs. (and this is using "power program" loosely, as it includes Providence, BC, Rutgers, and Seton Hall).

46/7 = 6.5 million people per power program

Ohio has 11.8 million people and 3 power basketball programs.
Indiana has 6.8 million people and 4 power basketball programs.
Kentucky has 4.5 million people and 2 power basketball programs.

23/9 = 2.6 million people per power program

(04-04-2023 09:19 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 08:54 AM)levydl Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 04:01 AM)Former Lurker Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 12:25 AM)ZCat Wrote:  

(04-03-2023 10:33 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  This is great.

Mark says Kenpom tells us UC is going to win a Natty soon.

Ain’t gonna happen.

I think it was OKI that asked was our ’92 FF an aberration? Well that’s a great Q. We went toe to toe with the fab five (Very skilled and tall team). The next year E-8 OT loss to NC. Maybe with that win we could’ve kicked the door down. But it didn’t happen. We rarely got enough high end talent. A lot of our recruits were from junior college or someone with some flaws / recruiting issues that we took. It’s just tough to break into even a consistent top 15 program. We can dream I guess. It’s just been so long since ‘92 or even our last E-8.

Well, the talent was markedly better than anyone since then has been able to land, but you are essentially correct. Several years without a full complement of scholarship players, or an otherwise great team with one position that was below par.

You have to wonder if the outlaw image that Huggins cultivated became self-limiting. For every recruit who wanted to play for the hot new coach at a historically-powerful program, there were probably two who didn’t want to play at UNLV East for Jerry Tarkanian Jr.

UC had the talent to make the Final 4 nearly every year for a decade after 1992, what on earth are you talking about?

Yea, I don't get this revisionist history. UC was a top ten program from 1992 through 2005. The lack of tournament success after 1996 was disappointing (kind of reminded me of Wright's tourney success draught at Villanova before he finally broke through), but UC was getting protected seeds on a regular basis. Had the clear best team in the country one season. Was preseason number 1 another. Earned a 1 seed in another. There is a segment of our fanbase that for some reason looks down on those years more than they should.

I think that is because our fan base is young for the most part and weren't around for those years. Seems like most of the people I come across on social media's UC hoops memories begin in '99-00 or even later (a lot seem to register in around '04 or '05 when we had Hicks and Max which I've always felt paled in comparison to several of the 90s teams).

(04-04-2023 10:01 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 09:40 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 08:52 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 08:49 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 07:54 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Truth be told we are in a region that is oversaturated with teams and not enough high end talent in "The State of Cincinnati" like we do in FB. We have UC, XU, Dayton, UK, Louisville, OSU, IU, Purdue, WKY, NKY, Wright State, Miami U, all within a couple hundred miles. Add another 100 and throw in Pitt, WVU, Michigan, Notre Dame and others.

We were good in the late 1950s, 60s and even early 1970s because we were one of the first schools to take black athletes, and we just didn't take 1-2 we were starting 4 and eventually 5. We just don't have that advantage anymore (by the way, this is the same reason why Syracuse was good at FB back in the Jim Brown, Ernie Davis era but now are mediocre in FB).

UConn scoffs at that type of saturation lol.

Yeah but there is more high end talent in NY, NJ, Philly, Baltimore, etc to recruit from.

True...our region has figured out that football is king unlike the Northeast and upper mid-Atlantic.

UConn's region has way fewer teams vying for elite talent.

New England has 15 million people and 3 power basketball programs. Nearby NY & NJ have 31 million people and 4 power programs. (and this is using "power program" loosely, as it includes Providence, BC, Rutgers, and Seton Hall).

46/7 = 6.5 million people per power program

Ohio has 11.8 million people and 3 power basketball programs.
Indiana has 6.8 million people and 4 power basketball programs.
Kentucky has 4.5 million people and 2 power basketball programs.

23/9 = 2.6 million people per power program

So we're moving the goal posts to "power" programs now? Ok...using the same 300 mile radius from UConn, you have the following high major programs

Syracuse
St. Johns
Providence
Villanova
UConn
Boston College
Rutgers
Seton Hall
Georgetown
Maryland
Penn State

That's not even counting the 5 whole friggin conferences that sit in that circle, along with the high-mid majors like UMass, Temple, etc. who have been known to pull a kid.

Suffice it to say program concentration is not a worthy excuse in general as other schools have to contend with as much, if not more, and still make it work. Clearly, the problem is inconsistency at the top and a lack of recent success to build a recruiting identity off of. That can all change rather quickly.

(04-04-2023 10:13 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 10:01 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 09:40 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 08:52 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 08:49 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  UConn scoffs at that type of saturation lol.

Yeah but there is more high end talent in NY, NJ, Philly, Baltimore, etc to recruit from.

True...our region has figured out that football is king unlike the Northeast and upper mid-Atlantic.

UConn's region has way fewer teams vying for elite talent.

New England has 15 million people and 3 power basketball programs. Nearby NY & NJ have 31 million people and 4 power programs. (and this is using "power program" loosely, as it includes Providence, BC, Rutgers, and Seton Hall).

46/7 = 6.5 million people per power program

Ohio has 11.8 million people and 3 power basketball programs.
Indiana has 6.8 million people and 4 power basketball programs.
Kentucky has 4.5 million people and 2 power basketball programs.

23/9 = 2.6 million people per power program

So we're moving the goal posts to "power" programs now? Ok...using the same 300 mile radius from UConn, you have the following high major programs

Syracuse
St. Johns
Providence
Villanova
UConn
Boston College
Rutgers
Seton Hall
Georgetown
Maryland
Penn State

That's not even counting the 5 whole friggin conferences that sit in that circle, along with the high-mid majors like UMass, Temple, etc. who have been known to pull a kid.

Suffice it to say program concentration is not a worthy excuse in general as other schools have to contend with as much, if not more, and still make it work. Clearly, the problem is inconsistency at the top and a lack of recent success to build a recruiting identity off of. That can all change rather quickly.

300 miles is ridiculous to use. 300 miles from Cincinnati puts you in the suburbs of Atlanta, Charlotte, and Milwaukee.

But okay, I'll play the 300-mile game:

300 mile radius of Cincinnati: 19 power schools (Tennessee, Vanderbilt, Virginia Tech, West Virginia, Pitt, Illinois, Depaul, Northwestern, Michigan, MSU, plus 9 tri-state schools). Plus large mid-majors like Dayton, WKU, SLU, and Loyola.

300 mile radius of Stoors: 9 power schools (Maryland & Georgetown are 320 miles from UConn - if you count them for UConn, you also have to count Virginia, Wake Forest, Wisconsin, Marquette, Georgia, and Georgia Tech for UC).



There are also more small schools in UC's region than UConn's region (which aren't really competition...)

New England has 21 D-1 programs. NY & NJ have 30. OH/KY/IN combine for 30 D-1 programs

51 programs/46 million people = 0.9 million people per D-1 school
30 programs/23 million people = 0.77 million people per D-1 school


# of NCAA championships
New England/NY/NJ: 7
OH/KY/IN: 18

# of schools who have won NCAA championships
New England/NY/NJ: 3 (CCNY, Syracuse, UConn)
OH/KY/IN: 5 (UK, IU, UC, OSU, UL)

# of schools who have been to a Final Four since 2000:
New England/NY/NJ: 2 (Syracuse, UConn)
OH/KY/IN: 5 (Kentucky, Louisville, Indiana, Ohio State, Butler. Does not count Dayton's 2020 AP poll finish)

(if you want to count Villanova & Maryland in the title & FF counts, then I'll raise you a Michigan State, Michigan, Illinois, Loyola, Marquette, and Wisconsin)

(04-04-2023 11:03 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 10:13 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 10:01 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 09:40 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 08:52 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Yeah but there is more high end talent in NY, NJ, Philly, Baltimore, etc to recruit from.

True...our region has figured out that football is king unlike the Northeast and upper mid-Atlantic.

UConn's region has way fewer teams vying for elite talent.

New England has 15 million people and 3 power basketball programs. Nearby NY & NJ have 31 million people and 4 power programs. (and this is using "power program" loosely, as it includes Providence, BC, Rutgers, and Seton Hall).

46/7 = 6.5 million people per power program

Ohio has 11.8 million people and 3 power basketball programs.
Indiana has 6.8 million people and 4 power basketball programs.
Kentucky has 4.5 million people and 2 power basketball programs.

23/9 = 2.6 million people per power program

So we're moving the goal posts to "power" programs now? Ok...using the same 300 mile radius from UConn, you have the following high major programs

Syracuse
St. Johns
Providence
Villanova
UConn
Boston College
Rutgers
Seton Hall
Georgetown
Maryland
Penn State

That's not even counting the 5 whole friggin conferences that sit in that circle, along with the high-mid majors like UMass, Temple, etc. who have been known to pull a kid.

Suffice it to say program concentration is not a worthy excuse in general as other schools have to contend with as much, if not more, and still make it work. Clearly, the problem is inconsistency at the top and a lack of recent success to build a recruiting identity off of. That can all change rather quickly.

300 miles is ridiculous to use. 300 miles from Cincinnati puts you in the suburbs of Atlanta, Charlotte, and Milwaukee.

But okay, I'll play the 300-mile game:

300 mile radius of Cincinnati: 19 power schools (Tennessee, Vanderbilt, Virginia Tech, West Virginia, Pitt, Illinois, Depaul, Northwestern, Michigan, MSU, plus 9 tri-state schools). Plus large mid-majors like Dayton, WKU, SLU, and Loyola.

300 mile radius of Stoors: 9 power schools (Maryland & Georgetown are 320 miles from UConn - if you count them for UConn, you also have to count Virginia, Wake Forest, Wisconsin, Marquette, Georgia, and Georgia Tech for UC).



There are also more small schools in UC's region than UConn's region (which aren't really competition...)

New England has 21 D-1 programs. NY & NJ have 30. OH/KY/IN combine for 30 D-1 programs

51 programs/46 million people = 0.9 million people per D-1 school
30 programs/23 million people = 0.77 million people per D-1 school


# of NCAA championships
New England/NY/NJ: 7
OH/KY/IN: 18

# of schools who have won NCAA championships
New England/NY/NJ: 3 (CCNY, Syracuse, UConn)
OH/KY/IN: 5 (UK, IU, UC, OSU, UL)

# of schools who have been to a Final Four since 2000:
New England/NY/NJ: 2 (Syracuse, UConn)
OH/KY/IN: 5 (Kentucky, Louisville, Indiana, Ohio State, Butler. Does not count Dayton's 2020 AP poll finish)

(if you want to count Villanova & Maryland in the title & FF counts, then I'll raise you a Michigan State, Michigan, Illinois, Loyola, Marquette, and Wisconsin)

Ouch.... Bearcatman got burned by data.

(04-04-2023 11:33 AM)the_dude Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 11:03 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 10:13 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 10:01 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 09:40 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  True...our region has figured out that football is king unlike the Northeast and upper mid-Atlantic.

UConn's region has way fewer teams vying for elite talent.

New England has 15 million people and 3 power basketball programs. Nearby NY & NJ have 31 million people and 4 power programs. (and this is using "power program" loosely, as it includes Providence, BC, Rutgers, and Seton Hall).

46/7 = 6.5 million people per power program

Ohio has 11.8 million people and 3 power basketball programs.
Indiana has 6.8 million people and 4 power basketball programs.
Kentucky has 4.5 million people and 2 power basketball programs.

23/9 = 2.6 million people per power program

So we're moving the goal posts to "power" programs now? Ok...using the same 300 mile radius from UConn, you have the following high major programs

Syracuse
St. Johns
Providence
Villanova
UConn
Boston College
Rutgers
Seton Hall
Georgetown
Maryland
Penn State

That's not even counting the 5 whole friggin conferences that sit in that circle, along with the high-mid majors like UMass, Temple, etc. who have been known to pull a kid.

Suffice it to say program concentration is not a worthy excuse in general as other schools have to contend with as much, if not more, and still make it work. Clearly, the problem is inconsistency at the top and a lack of recent success to build a recruiting identity off of. That can all change rather quickly.

300 miles is ridiculous to use. 300 miles from Cincinnati puts you in the suburbs of Atlanta, Charlotte, and Milwaukee.

But okay, I'll play the 300-mile game:

300 mile radius of Cincinnati: 19 power schools (Tennessee, Vanderbilt, Virginia Tech, West Virginia, Pitt, Illinois, Depaul, Northwestern, Michigan, MSU, plus 9 tri-state schools). Plus large mid-majors like Dayton, WKU, SLU, and Loyola.

300 mile radius of Stoors: 9 power schools (Maryland & Georgetown are 320 miles from UConn - if you count them for UConn, you also have to count Virginia, Wake Forest, Wisconsin, Marquette, Georgia, and Georgia Tech for UC).



There are also more small schools in UC's region than UConn's region (which aren't really competition...)

New England has 21 D-1 programs. NY & NJ have 30. OH/KY/IN combine for 30 D-1 programs

51 programs/46 million people = 0.9 million people per D-1 school
30 programs/23 million people = 0.77 million people per D-1 school


# of NCAA championships
New England/NY/NJ: 7
OH/KY/IN: 18

# of schools who have won NCAA championships
New England/NY/NJ: 3 (CCNY, Syracuse, UConn)
OH/KY/IN: 5 (UK, IU, UC, OSU, UL)

# of schools who have been to a Final Four since 2000:
New England/NY/NJ: 2 (Syracuse, UConn)
OH/KY/IN: 5 (Kentucky, Louisville, Indiana, Ohio State, Butler. Does not count Dayton's 2020 AP poll finish)

(if you want to count Villanova & Maryland in the title & FF counts, then I'll raise you a Michigan State, Michigan, Illinois, Loyola, Marquette, and Wisconsin)

Ouch.... Bearcatman got burned by data.

No, he's just further proving the point that concentration of programs has nothing to do with a program's success. Why is Cincinnati the only team on those lists of aspirational peers that hasn't made it further than a Sweet Sixteen despite being in the Dame footprint as those same schools?

If you want to claim that we have too many programs around us and that's why we haven't been as successful, you're going to have to explain why we're the only school that is impacted by that.

(04-04-2023 12:17 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 11:33 AM)the_dude Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 11:03 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 10:13 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 10:01 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  UConn's region has way fewer teams vying for elite talent.

New England has 15 million people and 3 power basketball programs. Nearby NY & NJ have 31 million people and 4 power programs. (and this is using "power program" loosely, as it includes Providence, BC, Rutgers, and Seton Hall).

46/7 = 6.5 million people per power program

Ohio has 11.8 million people and 3 power basketball programs.
Indiana has 6.8 million people and 4 power basketball programs.
Kentucky has 4.5 million people and 2 power basketball programs.

23/9 = 2.6 million people per power program

So we're moving the goal posts to "power" programs now? Ok...using the same 300 mile radius from UConn, you have the following high major programs

Syracuse
St. Johns
Providence
Villanova
UConn
Boston College
Rutgers
Seton Hall
Georgetown
Maryland
Penn State

That's not even counting the 5 whole friggin conferences that sit in that circle, along with the high-mid majors like UMass, Temple, etc. who have been known to pull a kid.

Suffice it to say program concentration is not a worthy excuse in general as other schools have to contend with as much, if not more, and still make it work. Clearly, the problem is inconsistency at the top and a lack of recent success to build a recruiting identity off of. That can all change rather quickly.

300 miles is ridiculous to use. 300 miles from Cincinnati puts you in the suburbs of Atlanta, Charlotte, and Milwaukee.

But okay, I'll play the 300-mile game:

300 mile radius of Cincinnati: 19 power schools (Tennessee, Vanderbilt, Virginia Tech, West Virginia, Pitt, Illinois, Depaul, Northwestern, Michigan, MSU, plus 9 tri-state schools). Plus large mid-majors like Dayton, WKU, SLU, and Loyola.

300 mile radius of Stoors: 9 power schools (Maryland & Georgetown are 320 miles from UConn - if you count them for UConn, you also have to count Virginia, Wake Forest, Wisconsin, Marquette, Georgia, and Georgia Tech for UC).



There are also more small schools in UC's region than UConn's region (which aren't really competition...)

New England has 21 D-1 programs. NY & NJ have 30. OH/KY/IN combine for 30 D-1 programs

51 programs/46 million people = 0.9 million people per D-1 school
30 programs/23 million people = 0.77 million people per D-1 school


# of NCAA championships
New England/NY/NJ: 7
OH/KY/IN: 18

# of schools who have won NCAA championships
New England/NY/NJ: 3 (CCNY, Syracuse, UConn)
OH/KY/IN: 5 (UK, IU, UC, OSU, UL)

# of schools who have been to a Final Four since 2000:
New England/NY/NJ: 2 (Syracuse, UConn)
OH/KY/IN: 5 (Kentucky, Louisville, Indiana, Ohio State, Butler. Does not count Dayton's 2020 AP poll finish)

(if you want to count Villanova & Maryland in the title & FF counts, then I'll raise you a Michigan State, Michigan, Illinois, Loyola, Marquette, and Wisconsin)

Ouch.... Bearcatman got burned by data.

No, he's just further proving the point that concentration of programs has nothing to do with a program's success. Why is Cincinnati the only team on those lists of aspirational peers that hasn't made it further than a Sweet Sixteen despite being in the Dame footprint as those same schools?

If you want to claim that we have too many programs around us and that's why we haven't been as successful, you're going to have to explain why we're the only school that is impacted by that.

I will say that something is amiss. Yeah someone will come on and throw out a name or two but it just seems that we have a damn hard time recruiting in our proverbial State of Cincinnati (until Rayvon who is in the 2023 class). When DDJ transferred in from Michigan it struck me odd that we haven't had a Bearcat recruit from the state of Michigan since Robert Whaley in 2003 (I don't count Connor Barwin, who was on loan from FB). We haven't had a Chicago recruit since Dion Dixon who came in 2008. Other than Mikey Saunders we really haven't gotten anyone out of Indiana (Rob Phinesee transfer). Its been a while since we grabbed someone out of Cleveland, Columbus or Dayton. Its just seems like its awfully difficult for us to get kids in our region to want to play here--- meanwhile plenty have gone on to play for XU, Dayton, Marquette and obviously the P5 schools.

When UC was good in the late 50s, 60s and even 70s, pretty much all the guys came from Ohio, Indiana and Illinois with your occasional recruit out of Tennessee or Georgia.

We are in a moment in time where more of the regular students are coming in from the rest of the state and in other parts of the regions. It isn't translating to hoops recruiting for some reason and I don't understand why. We should have more guys who want to be Bearcats living in close proximity.

(04-04-2023 09:13 AM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 08:54 AM)levydl Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 04:01 AM)Former Lurker Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 12:25 AM)ZCat Wrote:  

(04-03-2023 10:33 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  This is great.

Mark says Kenpom tells us UC is going to win a Natty soon.

Ain’t gonna happen.

I think it was OKI that asked was our ’92 FF an aberration? Well that’s a great Q. We went toe to toe with the fab five (Very skilled and tall team). The next year E-8 OT loss to NC. Maybe with that win we could’ve kicked the door down. But it didn’t happen. We rarely got enough high end talent. A lot of our recruits were from junior college or someone with some flaws / recruiting issues that we took. It’s just tough to break into even a consistent top 15 program. We can dream I guess. It’s just been so long since ‘92 or even our last E-8.

Well, the talent was markedly better than anyone since then has been able to land, but you are essentially correct. Several years without a full complement of scholarship players, or an otherwise great team with one position that was below par.

You have to wonder if the outlaw image that Huggins cultivated became self-limiting. For every recruit who wanted to play for the hot new coach at a historically-powerful program, there were probably two who didn’t want to play at UNLV East for Jerry Tarkanian Jr.

UC had the talent to make the Final 4 nearly every year for a decade after 1992, what on earth are you talking about?

If bimbo hadn't fired him, Huggins would have brought in Beasley and probably Mayo for another stacked team.

Give Zimpher a break. Her job was to run a large university, not coddle an unrepentant public drunk. I don't know who Huggins might have added to the roster or what kind of success he might have enjoyed if he'd remained at UC, but I do know that he hasn't brought any particular basketball glory to WVU in the years since he was booted. Mick, on the other hand...

(04-04-2023 01:42 PM)colohank Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 09:13 AM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 08:54 AM)levydl Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 04:01 AM)Former Lurker Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 12:25 AM)ZCat Wrote:  Ain’t gonna happen.

I think it was OKI that asked was our ’92 FF an aberration? Well that’s a great Q. We went toe to toe with the fab five (Very skilled and tall team). The next year E-8 OT loss to NC. Maybe with that win we could’ve kicked the door down. But it didn’t happen. We rarely got enough high end talent. A lot of our recruits were from junior college or someone with some flaws / recruiting issues that we took. It’s just tough to break into even a consistent top 15 program. We can dream I guess. It’s just been so long since ‘92 or even our last E-8.

Well, the talent was markedly better than anyone since then has been able to land, but you are essentially correct. Several years without a full complement of scholarship players, or an otherwise great team with one position that was below par.

You have to wonder if the outlaw image that Huggins cultivated became self-limiting. For every recruit who wanted to play for the hot new coach at a historically-powerful program, there were probably two who didn’t want to play at UNLV East for Jerry Tarkanian Jr.

UC had the talent to make the Final 4 nearly every year for a decade after 1992, what on earth are you talking about?

If bimbo hadn't fired him, Huggins would have brought in Beasley and probably Mayo for another stacked team.

Give Zimpher a break. Her job was to run a large university, not coddle an unrepentant public drunk. I don't know who Huggins might have added to the roster or what kind of success he might have enjoyed if he'd remained at UC, but I do know that he hasn't brought any particular basketball glory to WVU in the years since he was booted. Mick, on the other hand...

People always act like it was a unilateral decision on her part. Often leaders from the outside are brought in to be the "hatchet-man". She was under orders from the BOT.

(04-04-2023 01:42 PM)colohank Wrote:  Give Zimpher a break. Her job was to run a large university, not coddle an unrepentant public drunk. I don't know who Huggins might have added to the roster or what kind of success he might have enjoyed if he'd remained at UC, but I do know that he hasn't brought any particular basketball glory to WVU in the years since he was booted. Mick, on the other hand...

He took West Virginia to their 2nd Final Four ever (first since 1959) and four sweet 16s (I counted 5 in the school's history prior to Huggs). He's finished 2nd in the Big 12 3 times, and 3rd two others. He won a Big East tournament as well.

(04-04-2023 01:42 PM)colohank Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 09:13 AM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 08:54 AM)levydl Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 04:01 AM)Former Lurker Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 12:25 AM)ZCat Wrote:  Ain’t gonna happen.

I think it was OKI that asked was our ’92 FF an aberration? Well that’s a great Q. We went toe to toe with the fab five (Very skilled and tall team). The next year E-8 OT loss to NC. Maybe with that win we could’ve kicked the door down. But it didn’t happen. We rarely got enough high end talent. A lot of our recruits were from junior college or someone with some flaws / recruiting issues that we took. It’s just tough to break into even a consistent top 15 program. We can dream I guess. It’s just been so long since ‘92 or even our last E-8.

Well, the talent was markedly better than anyone since then has been able to land, but you are essentially correct. Several years without a full complement of scholarship players, or an otherwise great team with one position that was below par.

You have to wonder if the outlaw image that Huggins cultivated became self-limiting. For every recruit who wanted to play for the hot new coach at a historically-powerful program, there were probably two who didn’t want to play at UNLV East for Jerry Tarkanian Jr.

UC had the talent to make the Final 4 nearly every year for a decade after 1992, what on earth are you talking about?

If bimbo hadn't fired him, Huggins would have brought in Beasley and probably Mayo for another stacked team.

Give Zimpher a break. Her job was to run a large university, not coddle an unrepentant public drunk. I don't know who Huggins might have added to the roster or what kind of success he might have enjoyed if he'd remained at UC, but I do know that he hasn't brought any particular basketball glory to WVU in the years since he was booted. Mick, on the other hand...

Just a final four and four sweet 16's.

(04-04-2023 01:52 PM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 01:42 PM)colohank Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 09:13 AM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 08:54 AM)levydl Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 04:01 AM)Former Lurker Wrote:  Well, the talent was markedly better than anyone since then has been able to land, but you are essentially correct. Several years without a full complement of scholarship players, or an otherwise great team with one position that was below par.

You have to wonder if the outlaw image that Huggins cultivated became self-limiting. For every recruit who wanted to play for the hot new coach at a historically-powerful program, there were probably two who didn’t want to play at UNLV East for Jerry Tarkanian Jr.

UC had the talent to make the Final 4 nearly every year for a decade after 1992, what on earth are you talking about?

If bimbo hadn't fired him, Huggins would have brought in Beasley and probably Mayo for another stacked team.

Give Zimpher a break. Her job was to run a large university, not coddle an unrepentant public drunk. I don't know who Huggins might have added to the roster or what kind of success he might have enjoyed if he'd remained at UC, but I do know that he hasn't brought any particular basketball glory to WVU in the years since he was booted. Mick, on the other hand...

Just a final four and four sweet 16's.

I bet we're the only program who is still arguing about what happened to a coach five coaches and 20 years ago.

A lot of Cincinnati fans are weird, red's fans are stuck in the '70s, Bengals fans are stuck in the '80s, UC basketball fans are stuck in the 90s, I just hope that you see football fans don't end up getting stuck in the late 00's / early 20s