The unofficial online home for fans of the University of Cincinnati Bearcats. Part of Collegiate Sports Nation (CSN).

(04-04-2023 02:45 PM)the_dude Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 01:52 PM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 01:42 PM)colohank Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 09:13 AM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 08:54 AM)levydl Wrote:  UC had the talent to make the Final 4 nearly every year for a decade after 1992, what on earth are you talking about?

If bimbo hadn't fired him, Huggins would have brought in Beasley and probably Mayo for another stacked team.

Give Zimpher a break. Her job was to run a large university, not coddle an unrepentant public drunk. I don't know who Huggins might have added to the roster or what kind of success he might have enjoyed if he'd remained at UC, but I do know that he hasn't brought any particular basketball glory to WVU in the years since he was booted. Mick, on the other hand...

Just a final four and four sweet 16's.

I bet we're the only program who is still arguing about what happened to a coach five coaches and 20 years ago.

A lot of Cincinnati fans are weird, red's fans are stuck in the '70s, Bengals fans are stuck in the '80s, UC basketball fans are stuck in the 90s, I just hope that you see football fans don't end up getting stuck in the late 00's / early 20s

I think the Bengal fans are out of the 1980s now with Joey B in town; but yes I generally agree this town is really bad at being stuck in the past. In fairness, I think the percent of fans who are stuck in the past are the same people across sports. LOL!

(04-04-2023 02:45 PM)the_dude Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 01:52 PM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 01:42 PM)colohank Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 09:13 AM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 08:54 AM)levydl Wrote:  UC had the talent to make the Final 4 nearly every year for a decade after 1992, what on earth are you talking about?

If bimbo hadn't fired him, Huggins would have brought in Beasley and probably Mayo for another stacked team.

Give Zimpher a break. Her job was to run a large university, not coddle an unrepentant public drunk. I don't know who Huggins might have added to the roster or what kind of success he might have enjoyed if he'd remained at UC, but I do know that he hasn't brought any particular basketball glory to WVU in the years since he was booted. Mick, on the other hand...

Just a final four and four sweet 16's.

I bet we're the only program who is still arguing about what happened to a coach five coaches and 20 years ago.

A lot of Cincinnati fans are weird, red's fans are stuck in the '70s, Bengals fans are stuck in the '80s, UC basketball fans are stuck in the 90s, I just hope that you see football fans don't end up getting stuck in the late 00's / early 20s

There's a difference between "getting stuck in the past" and appreciating the past and the people that brought a lot of success to this basketball program. I'm as invested in the present as any UC fan. I have football and basketball season tickets. I watch every game. I believe in the current basketball coach and what he is trying to build. I can do all that and acknowledge the success of the best UC basketball coach since the 60s.

(04-04-2023 02:45 PM)the_dude Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 01:52 PM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 01:42 PM)colohank Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 09:13 AM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 08:54 AM)levydl Wrote:  UC had the talent to make the Final 4 nearly every year for a decade after 1992, what on earth are you talking about?

If bimbo hadn't fired him, Huggins would have brought in Beasley and probably Mayo for another stacked team.

Give Zimpher a break. Her job was to run a large university, not coddle an unrepentant public drunk. I don't know who Huggins might have added to the roster or what kind of success he might have enjoyed if he'd remained at UC, but I do know that he hasn't brought any particular basketball glory to WVU in the years since he was booted. Mick, on the other hand...

Just a final four and four sweet 16's.

I bet we're the only program who is still arguing about what happened to a coach five coaches and 20 years ago.

A lot of Cincinnati fans are weird, red's fans are stuck in the '70s, Bengals fans are stuck in the '80s, UC basketball fans are stuck in the 90s, I just hope that you see football fans don't end up getting stuck in the late 00's / early 20s

I guess you don't know any Indiana fans.

You may want to get out a little more.

(04-04-2023 12:17 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 11:33 AM)the_dude Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 11:03 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 10:13 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 10:01 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  UConn's region has way fewer teams vying for elite talent.

New England has 15 million people and 3 power basketball programs. Nearby NY & NJ have 31 million people and 4 power programs. (and this is using "power program" loosely, as it includes Providence, BC, Rutgers, and Seton Hall).

46/7 = 6.5 million people per power program

Ohio has 11.8 million people and 3 power basketball programs.
Indiana has 6.8 million people and 4 power basketball programs.
Kentucky has 4.5 million people and 2 power basketball programs.

23/9 = 2.6 million people per power program

So we're moving the goal posts to "power" programs now? Ok...using the same 300 mile radius from UConn, you have the following high major programs

Syracuse
St. Johns
Providence
Villanova
UConn
Boston College
Rutgers
Seton Hall
Georgetown
Maryland
Penn State

That's not even counting the 5 whole friggin conferences that sit in that circle, along with the high-mid majors like UMass, Temple, etc. who have been known to pull a kid.

Suffice it to say program concentration is not a worthy excuse in general as other schools have to contend with as much, if not more, and still make it work. Clearly, the problem is inconsistency at the top and a lack of recent success to build a recruiting identity off of. That can all change rather quickly.

300 miles is ridiculous to use. 300 miles from Cincinnati puts you in the suburbs of Atlanta, Charlotte, and Milwaukee.

But okay, I'll play the 300-mile game:

300 mile radius of Cincinnati: 19 power schools (Tennessee, Vanderbilt, Virginia Tech, West Virginia, Pitt, Illinois, Depaul, Northwestern, Michigan, MSU, plus 9 tri-state schools). Plus large mid-majors like Dayton, WKU, SLU, and Loyola.

300 mile radius of Stoors: 9 power schools (Maryland & Georgetown are 320 miles from UConn - if you count them for UConn, you also have to count Virginia, Wake Forest, Wisconsin, Marquette, Georgia, and Georgia Tech for UC).



There are also more small schools in UC's region than UConn's region (which aren't really competition...)

New England has 21 D-1 programs. NY & NJ have 30. OH/KY/IN combine for 30 D-1 programs

51 programs/46 million people = 0.9 million people per D-1 school
30 programs/23 million people = 0.77 million people per D-1 school


# of NCAA championships
New England/NY/NJ: 7
OH/KY/IN: 18

# of schools who have won NCAA championships
New England/NY/NJ: 3 (CCNY, Syracuse, UConn)
OH/KY/IN: 5 (UK, IU, UC, OSU, UL)

# of schools who have been to a Final Four since 2000:
New England/NY/NJ: 2 (Syracuse, UConn)
OH/KY/IN: 5 (Kentucky, Louisville, Indiana, Ohio State, Butler. Does not count Dayton's 2020 AP poll finish)

(if you want to count Villanova & Maryland in the title & FF counts, then I'll raise you a Michigan State, Michigan, Illinois, Loyola, Marquette, and Wisconsin)

Ouch.... Bearcatman got burned by data.

No, he's just further proving the point that concentration of programs has nothing to do with a program's success. Why is Cincinnati the only team on those lists of aspirational peers that hasn't made it further than a Sweet Sixteen despite being in the Dame footprint as those same schools?

If you want to claim that we have too many programs around us and that's why we haven't been as successful, you're going to have to explain why we're the only school that is impacted by that.

I was responding to your post that "UConn scoffs at that type of saturation." No, they don't. UConn doesn't experience nearly the competition for local recruits that UC does.

You're changing the argument from UC vs UConn to UC vs OSU/UK/UL/Xavier/Purdue etc.

I agree with your new argument (that UC has fallen behind our local competition in the last 15 years), although it is a completely separate argument from your original point.

(04-05-2023 10:19 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  I was responding to your post that "UConn scoffs at that type of saturation." No, they don't. UConn doesn't experience nearly the competition for local recruits that UC does.

You're changing the argument from UC vs UConn to UC vs OSU/UK/UL/Xavier/Purdue etc.

I agree with your new argument (that UC has fallen behind our local competition in the last 15 years), although it is a completely separate argument from your original point.

My general conceit was that there are more institutions with D1 basketball teams closer to UConn than there are to Cincinnati. That point remains true. I was more referring to the fact that the national champions have a ton of schools closer by and don't have a problem with it at all...of which we both agree that concentration of schools means absolutely nothing when comparing to the school's ability to recruit and be competitive...outside of Cincinnati for some reason.

(04-05-2023 12:12 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(04-05-2023 10:19 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  I was responding to your post that "UConn scoffs at that type of saturation." No, they don't. UConn doesn't experience nearly the competition for local recruits that UC does.

You're changing the argument from UC vs UConn to UC vs OSU/UK/UL/Xavier/Purdue etc.

I agree with your new argument (that UC has fallen behind our local competition in the last 15 years), although it is a completely separate argument from your original point.

My general conceit was that there are more institutions with D1 basketball teams closer to UConn than there are to Cincinnati. That point remains true. I was more referring to the fact that the national champions have a ton of schools closer by and don't have a problem with it at all...of which we both agree that concentration of schools means absolutely nothing when comparing to the school's ability to recruit and be competitive...outside of Cincinnati for some reason.

UC is a top G5 or mid-tier "P6" school recruiting against an entrenched group of mid to upper level P5 schools with significant historical resource, exposure and perception advantages. UConn is definitely a top G5 or arguably top P6 school surrounded by a slew of low tier mid major schools (in reality or by perception) with an occassional mid-tier P5 school. The comparison is not close as to the relative "weight" each basketball institution has to throw around. As I pointed out in another thread, UConn is a near MBB elite over the last 35 years or so with 5 NCs - almost more than the whole list of schools you compare UC to over the same time frame. In the NE part of the country, if an elite talent wants to stay close to home, UConn is a destination school with history to match. Within a 150 or 200 mile radius of UC, even during the Huggins hey day or Mick's best run of appearances, UC was never close to that and hasn't been since the early 60s. In a nutshell, that is why UConn isn't worried about much denser saturation than UC faces.

With that said, I do believe that UC MBB should be on a more competitive footing with our neighboring peers than we are... but that's a discussion for another thread and a lot of beer.

(04-04-2023 08:54 AM)levydl Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 04:01 AM)Former Lurker Wrote:  

(04-04-2023 12:25 AM)ZCat Wrote:  

(04-03-2023 10:33 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  This is great.

Mark says Kenpom tells us UC is going to win a Natty soon.

Ain’t gonna happen.

I think it was OKI that asked was our ’92 FF an aberration? Well that’s a great Q. We went toe to toe with the fab five (Very skilled and tall team). The next year E-8 OT loss to NC. Maybe with that win we could’ve kicked the door down. But it didn’t happen. We rarely got enough high end talent. A lot of our recruits were from junior college or someone with some flaws / recruiting issues that we took. It’s just tough to break into even a consistent top 15 program. We can dream I guess. It’s just been so long since ‘92 or even our last E-8.

Well, the talent was markedly better than anyone since then has been able to land, but you are essentially correct. Several years without a full complement of scholarship players, or an otherwise great team with one position that was below par.

You have to wonder if the outlaw image that Huggins cultivated became self-limiting. For every recruit who wanted to play for the hot new coach at a historically-powerful program, there were probably two who didn’t want to play at UNLV East for Jerry Tarkanian Jr.

UC had the talent to make the Final 4 nearly every year for a decade after 1992, what on earth are you talking about?

Good reminder. Every year we were jacked for the tourney and nearly every year were out the first weekend.