(04-08-2021 12:45 PM)esayem Wrote:  Also, what’s in it for Gonzaga? They’ve lost two national championships the past five years. I don’t think they need the Big East whatsoever.

Conversely, why should the Big East offer something extra to get them, like allowing Gonzaga to keep any part of their ESPN arrangement? I suspect both sides are fine without each other. But, really, Gonzaga doesn’t have the leverage here.

University of Denver's Lacrosse team (Men's team started in 2014, women's in 2017) is in the Big East while the rest of the sports are in the Summit. Why can't Gonzaga's basketball program be setup like that? Have their Men's program (and even women's) join the BE and setup that schedule where they have a week on the road and week on campus. Schools going to play in Spokane can schedule it immediately after their game in Nebraska.

(04-08-2021 05:16 PM)ivet Wrote:  University of Denver's Lacrosse team (Men's team started in 2014, women's in 2017) is in the Big East while the rest of the sports are in the Summit. Why can't Gonzaga's basketball program be setup like that? Have their Men's program (and even women's) join the BE and setup that schedule where they have a week on the road and week on campus. Schools going to play in Spokane can schedule it immediately after their game in Nebraska.

NCAA rules prevent that. All Olympic sports need to be included.

Wouldn’t hate a rule change though. Non-revenue sports play close by schools and the basketball programs would be free to move wherever.

It makes zero sense for Gonzaga to want to join the Big East, nor does it make sense for the Big East (a conference centered in NYC and built around the NE) to want to involve Gonzaga as a full-member. What would make sense for both parties is to have a home/home set-up annually, especially given the like-minded fit of Gonzaga with a majority of the BE schools. Gonzaga could host a BE team for one game and then travel to a BE opponent for another. A one-off in either direction is much easier and doable than a full-membership. For the Big East, it would make a ton of sense to utilize teams that are not involved in the Gavitt Games, or use the one team that isn't involved in the Big 12 Battle.

Just an idea.

(04-08-2021 05:32 PM)Hoya Hoya Hoya Wrote:  

(04-08-2021 05:16 PM)ivet Wrote:  University of Denver's Lacrosse team (Men's team started in 2014, women's in 2017) is in the Big East while the rest of the sports are in the Summit. Why can't Gonzaga's basketball program be setup like that? Have their Men's program (and even women's) join the BE and setup that schedule where they have a week on the road and week on campus. Schools going to play in Spokane can schedule it immediately after their game in Nebraska.

NCAA rules prevent that. All Olympic sports need to be included.

Wouldn’t hate a rule change though. Non-revenue sports play close by schools and the basketball programs would be free to move wherever.

No they don't.

It's that no conference would allow it

If Gonzaga approached the Big East ... the Big East would be foolish not to listen. The Big East is no longer a "Northeast-centric" league (five of its programs are in the NE, Georgetown is Mid-Atlantic and five others are "North/Midwest"), so it would not be outlandish to add Gonzaga. Now, it would be a major challenge in some respects, I admit. Regardless, I doubt either party is interested.

GU likely has it much better in the WCC than we realize.

(04-08-2021 09:53 AM)solohawks Wrote:  A fun what if would have been how would things look if St. Louis had gotten that last Big East slot instead of Creighton

I like SLU a lot and support them as a potential 12th Big East member. However, Creighton is consistently in the top 10 (and often top 5) teams for attendance in the entire country. They are a legit power program both on-the-court and financially at the gate. College sports fandom in the state of Nebraska is definitely next-level (and not the outwardly braggadocios kind that you see in the SEC) - it’s just steady, year-after-year, total commitment whether they won or lose. We all look like total fair weather sports fans compared to them.

(04-09-2021 08:39 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(04-08-2021 09:53 AM)solohawks Wrote:  A fun what if would have been how would things look if St. Louis had gotten that last Big East slot instead of Creighton

I like SLU a lot and support them as a potential 12th Big East member. However, Creighton is consistently in the top 10 (and often top 5) teams for attendance in the entire country. They are a legit power program both on-the-court and financially at the gate. College sports fandom in the state of Nebraska is definitely next-level (and not the outwardly braggadocios kind that you see in the SEC) - it’s just steady, year-after-year, total commitment whether they won or lose. We all look like total fair weather sports fans compared to them.

I agree with Frank on Creighton. I also find Dayton to be like Creighton. Great fan support and almost always has a competitive team.

(04-09-2021 08:31 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  If Gonzaga approached the Big East ... the Big East would be foolish not to listen. The Big East is no longer a "Northeast-centric" league (five of its programs are in the NE, Georgetown is Mid-Atlantic and five others are "North/Midwest"), so it would not be outlandish to add Gonzaga. Now, it would be a major challenge in some respects, I admit. Regardless, I doubt either party is interested.

GU likely has it much better in the WCC than we realize.

I would respectfully challenge that assertion, Bill. The Big East may have five Midwestern teams in the fray (Creighton, Butler, DePaul, Marquette, Xavier), but it brands itself as a NE-based conference. The narrative about it being an elite NE-based basketball conference is well known. However, its offices are in NYC, its men's basketball tournament is at MSG in NYC, its women's basketball tournament has now moved to the Mohegan Sun in Connecticut. The return of UConn not only tilted/returned the balance to the NE-based schools, but it added another school with a heavy presence in NYC (which a majority of the schools have a strong alumni population in NYC).

Now, with the BE at eleven members, I will continue to argue in support that - long-term - the league should and will continue to consider Dayton, SLU and VCU as #12, #13 and #14, respectively. All are basketball-first athletic programs, with strong fan support and growing on-court success in the Atlantic 10. Each school has strong alumni pockets in NYC (where the BET is held), and have strong fan bases that travel well to road contests. UD and SLU have 10k+ arenas that they regularly fill, and St. Louis provides a strong new recruiting area/hub. UD (Xavier) and VCU (Georgetown) may very well infringe on territories occupied by present members, but the value (in theory) that they could provide long-term (additional content for Fox, more NCAAT teams, more NCAAT credits, more sessions for the BET, stronger bids/seeds, etc.) outweigh the negatives (loss of round robin, adding more Midwestern teams, adding another public institution, etc.).

We shall see. The Big East TV contract was rumored to be extended last summer when UConn joined (I don't believe that happened). It will be interesting to see what happens with that.

Regarding the geography of the Big East, it's more accurate to say they have a two-pole setup with one grouping of six schools in the 95 corridor between DC and Boston and another grouping in the Midwest. That Midwest grouping isn't new to the most recent version of the conference either - it was formed in 2005 when Cincy/Louisville/DePaul/Marquette were added to Notre Dame. I'm never going to hop in my car and drive to a Marquette game, but the important thing is that both groupings of schools have multiple away games where you can do that sort of thing - it's what makes a conference feel like a conference instead of just a list of opponents. Creighton's a bit of an outlier, but they seem perfectly happy with the arrangement.

In that context, the geography of Dayton and Saint Louis both work just fine in the Big East because they complement the Midwest group very well. X and Butler might actually have a problem with how close Dayton would be. I don't support going south of Georgetown on the east coast, but same deal with either of the Richmond schools relative to the 95 group. Gonzaga's just out in the middle of nowhere relative to the rest of the Big East, enough so that it doesn't work.

Would be perfectly happy for the conference to have an annual scheduling arrangement with them if they were interested though. Great program.

(04-09-2021 09:20 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(04-09-2021 08:31 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  If Gonzaga approached the Big East ... the Big East would be foolish not to listen. The Big East is no longer a "Northeast-centric" league (five of its programs are in the NE, Georgetown is Mid-Atlantic and five others are "North/Midwest"), so it would not be outlandish to add Gonzaga. Now, it would be a major challenge in some respects, I admit. Regardless, I doubt either party is interested.

GU likely has it much better in the WCC than we realize.

I would respectfully challenge that assertion, Bill. The Big East may have five Midwestern teams in the fray (Creighton, Butler, DePaul, Marquette, Xavier), but it brands itself as a NE-based conference. The narrative about it being an elite NE-based basketball conference is well known. However, its offices are in NYC, its men's basketball tournament is at MSG in NYC, its women's basketball tournament has now moved to the Mohegan Sun in Connecticut. The return of UConn not only tilted/returned the balance to the NE-based schools, but it added another school with a heavy presence in NYC (which a majority of the schools have a strong alumni population in NYC).

Now, with the BE at eleven members, I will continue to argue in support that - long-term - the league should and will continue to consider Dayton, SLU and VCU as #12, #13 and #14, respectively. All are basketball-first athletic programs, with strong fan support and growing on-court success in the Atlantic 10. Each school has strong alumni pockets in NYC (where the BET is held), and have strong fan bases that travel well to road contests. UD and SLU have 10k+ arenas that they regularly fill, and St. Louis provides a strong new recruiting area/hub. UD (Xavier) and VCU (Georgetown) may very well infringe on territories occupied by present members, but the value (in theory) that they could provide long-term (additional content for Fox, more NCAAT teams, more NCAAT credits, more sessions for the BET, stronger bids/seeds, etc.) outweigh the negatives (loss of round robin, adding more Midwestern teams, adding another public institution, etc.).

We shall see. The Big East TV contract was rumored to be extended last summer when UConn joined (I don't believe that happened). It will be interesting to see what happens with that.

There is no question, GW11, that the Big East brands itself, as it should, as a "Northeast-based conference," for all the reasons you accurately give. In some respects, I do consider the Big East a "Northeast league."

However, and as many on this board know by now, I am 1. very OCD and 2. extremely interested in cities, urban placemaking, demographics and college campuses. With this in mind, and with six of the 11 BE schools not located in the Northeast, my quirks prevent me from considering the Big East a "fully and true" Northeast league. The history can't be denied but the geography is clear.

I also like the thought of the BE adding Dayton and Saint Louis. And though VCU would be a strong add, my hope would be that Duquesne gets its in gear and that's the 14th school. Having the Pittsburgh market in the league simply makes sense.

I strongly agree with you on this regarding going to 14:

but the value (in theory) that they could provide long-term (additional content for Fox, more NCAAT teams, more NCAAT credits, more sessions for the BET, stronger bids/seeds, etc.) outweigh the negatives (loss of round robin, adding more Midwestern teams, adding another public institution, etc.).

I guess my question would be, where would the Big East’s “eastness” end if it went back out to western NY or PA? Because that doesn’t make Xavier feel “midwest” in the same way when you had Pitt, Cuse, and WVU nearish to Cincy.

Thet’s not a call for the conference to reach out for Duquesne or Bonnie, but, one school would/could challenge that thought of the Big East being two groupings of members: east and (mid)west.

The addition of Creighton, imo, will keep the thought (hopes?) alive of further western exploration. Creighton works in the same way that Gonzaga does with respect to fan support and program strength. Drink as much booze as one wants: Creighton is no car trip for anyone really in the current Big East. But the Big East ran with it, and it’s been good for both sides. I doubt the conference would have a problem going further west. It’s just that Denver’s basketball is crap, and I suspect Gonzaga may want more money out of any arrangement to suck up losses from its current deal and accounting for massive spending hikes for travel.

(04-09-2021 01:55 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  I guess my question would be, where would the Big East’s “eastness” end if it went back out to western NY or PA? Because that doesn’t make Xavier feel “midwest” in the same way when you had Pitt, Cuse, and WVU nearish to Cincy.

Thet’s not a call for the conference to reach out for Duquesne or Bonnie, but, one school would/could challenge that thought of the Big East being two groupings of members: east and (mid)west.

The addition of Creighton, imo, will keep the thought (hopes?) alive of further western exploration. Creighton works in the same way that Gonzaga does with respect to fan support and program strength. Drink as much booze as one wants: Creighton is no car trip for anyone really in the current Big East. But the Big East ran with it, and it’s been good for both sides. I doubt the conference would have a problem going further west. It’s just that Denver’s basketball is crap, and I suspect Gonzaga may want more money out of any arrangement to suck up losses from its current deal and accounting for massive spending hikes for travel.

Good point about Duquesne or St. Bonaventure, C-Bish. If a member of the Big East, DU, in particular, would act as a "connector" location between the five Northeast Schools and the foursome of DePaul, Marquette, Butler and Xavier. Georgetown is "somewhat" like that but not to the extent Duquesne would be. I've driven from Cincinnati to Pittsburgh. It's doable.

Another option for the Big East if it seeks 14 members (and assuming Saint Louis and Dayton are two): UMass.

With the addition of SLU, UD and UMass, the BE would have six schools in the Northeast, seven in the Midwest and one (GU) in the Mid-Atlantic. It would also have two public state universities that sponsor DI football.

I could strongly get on board with either UMass or Duquesne as part of a 14-team league.

VCU, on the other hand, would be a fine and worthy BE addition. But it simply doesn't "feel" as natural as the others.

There isn't the incentive for non football conferences to go to 12 or more members for the purposes of a "football conference championship game". At the current time, having 11 members allows for a 20 game double round robin. Beyond that requires either a 22 game (or more) conference schedule or eliminates full round robin. The only other reason to add would be either if the Big East loses a member, fears losing a member, or if someone out there is a slam dunk addition like UConn was.

(04-06-2021 09:42 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  As shown by the tournament this year the PAC doesn't exactly "need" Gonzaga when you have both Oregon schools advancing deep into the tournament.

Gonzaga would not do as well in the PAC week in and out because of the talent level or be as important there.

The PAC has been notoriously bad lately in the 2 major sports. This was definitely a fluke considering it was still a COVID season.

(04-10-2021 10:37 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(04-09-2021 01:55 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  I guess my question would be, where would the Big East’s “eastness” end if it went back out to western NY or PA? Because that doesn’t make Xavier feel “midwest” in the same way when you had Pitt, Cuse, and WVU nearish to Cincy.

Thet’s not a call for the conference to reach out for Duquesne or Bonnie, but, one school would/could challenge that thought of the Big East being two groupings of members: east and (mid)west.

The addition of Creighton, imo, will keep the thought (hopes?) alive of further western exploration. Creighton works in the same way that Gonzaga does with respect to fan support and program strength. Drink as much booze as one wants: Creighton is no car trip for anyone really in the current Big East. But the Big East ran with it, and it’s been good for both sides. I doubt the conference would have a problem going further west. It’s just that Denver’s basketball is crap, and I suspect Gonzaga may want more money out of any arrangement to suck up losses from its current deal and accounting for massive spending hikes for travel.

Good point about Duquesne or St. Bonaventure, C-Bish. If a member of the Big East, DU, in particular, would act as a "connector" location between the five Northeast Schools and the foursome of DePaul, Marquette, Butler and Xavier. Georgetown is "somewhat" like that but not to the extent Duquesne would be. I've driven from Cincinnati to Pittsburgh. It's doable.

Another option for the Big East if it seeks 14 members (and assuming Saint Louis and Dayton are two): UMass.

With the addition of SLU, UD and UMass, the BE would have six schools in the Northeast, seven in the Midwest and one (GU) in the Mid-Atlantic. It would also have two public state universities that sponsor DI football.

I could strongly get on board with either UMass or Duquesne as part of a 14-team league.

VCU, on the other hand, would be a fine and worthy BE addition. But it simply doesn't "feel" as natural as the others.

Yeah, DC may sit on the I-95 corridor, but it’s the most “west” of that core. The difference in mileage between Georgetown and Providence to Georgetown to Xavier is only a bit over 100 miles favoring Provy, and about 50-60 miles more than the gap between Chicago and Omaha. And if you still had a Pittsburgh outpost, it puts Xavier closer to it than Chicago.

The whole thing seems arbitrary is all I’m saying. The conference has made it work with all of its members and the basketball carries the programs. No matter where they’d plant down, if the acqusition was truly committed to basketball success, it, too, will work. So, be that pushing south into VA, NC (I still think Davidson may eventually find themselves somewhere else), or in more familiar territory (OH or IL/MO), if the hoops don’t suffer, all will be fine.

Same will go if there is something ever to form between the Zags and the Big East.

[/quote]



The PAC has been notoriously bad lately in the 2 major sports. This was definitely a fluke considering it was still a COVID season.
[/quote]

This post's sentiment is EXACTLY what I mean by "you guys don't care about the athletes".

(04-08-2021 05:04 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(04-08-2021 12:45 PM)esayem Wrote:  Also, what’s in it for Gonzaga? They’ve lost two national championships the past five years. I don’t think they need the Big East whatsoever.

Conversely, why should the Big East offer something extra to get them, like allowing Gonzaga to keep any part of their ESPN arrangement? I suspect both sides are fine without each other. But, really, Gonzaga doesn’t have the leverage here.

Do they need the leverage? In 2018-2019, they made a $5.6 million dollar profit from basketball. They have finished in the top ten in each of the past five seasons. In 2018-2019, they appeared on ESPN or ESPN2 18 times in their 33 games before the NCAA Tournament. They have a great relationship with ESPN that has worked well for Gonzaga, the WCC and ESPN. The travel and their relationship with ESPN makes a move to the Big East a pipe dream. The grass looks greener on the other side of the country, but life in the WCC has worked well for Gonzaga.

(04-10-2021 12:34 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(04-10-2021 10:37 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(04-09-2021 01:55 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  I guess my question would be, where would the Big East’s “eastness” end if it went back out to western NY or PA? Because that doesn’t make Xavier feel “midwest” in the same way when you had Pitt, Cuse, and WVU nearish to Cincy.

Thet’s not a call for the conference to reach out for Duquesne or Bonnie, but, one school would/could challenge that thought of the Big East being two groupings of members: east and (mid)west.

The addition of Creighton, imo, will keep the thought (hopes?) alive of further western exploration. Creighton works in the same way that Gonzaga does with respect to fan support and program strength. Drink as much booze as one wants: Creighton is no car trip for anyone really in the current Big East. But the Big East ran with it, and it’s been good for both sides. I doubt the conference would have a problem going further west. It’s just that Denver’s basketball is crap, and I suspect Gonzaga may want more money out of any arrangement to suck up losses from its current deal and accounting for massive spending hikes for travel.

Good point about Duquesne or St. Bonaventure, C-Bish. If a member of the Big East, DU, in particular, would act as a "connector" location between the five Northeast Schools and the foursome of DePaul, Marquette, Butler and Xavier. Georgetown is "somewhat" like that but not to the extent Duquesne would be. I've driven from Cincinnati to Pittsburgh. It's doable.

Another option for the Big East if it seeks 14 members (and assuming Saint Louis and Dayton are two): UMass.

With the addition of SLU, UD and UMass, the BE would have six schools in the Northeast, seven in the Midwest and one (GU) in the Mid-Atlantic. It would also have two public state universities that sponsor DI football.

I could strongly get on board with either UMass or Duquesne as part of a 14-team league.

VCU, on the other hand, would be a fine and worthy BE addition. But it simply doesn't "feel" as natural as the others.

Yeah, DC may sit on the I-95 corridor, but it’s the most “west” of that core. The difference in mileage between Georgetown and Providence to Georgetown to Xavier is only a bit over 100 miles favoring Provy, and about 50-60 miles more than the gap between Chicago and Omaha. And if you still had a Pittsburgh outpost, it puts Xavier closer to it than Chicago.

The whole thing seems arbitrary is all I’m saying. The conference has made it work with all of its members and the basketball carries the programs. No matter where they’d plant down, if the acqusition was truly committed to basketball success, it, too, will work. So, be that pushing south into VA, NC (I still think Davidson may eventually find themselves somewhere else), or in more familiar territory (OH or IL/MO), if the hoops don’t suffer, all will be fine.

Same will go if there is something ever to form between the Zags and the Big East.

All very good points. Well framed and I agree.

(04-10-2021 05:12 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  

(04-08-2021 05:04 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(04-08-2021 12:45 PM)esayem Wrote:  Also, what’s in it for Gonzaga? They’ve lost two national championships the past five years. I don’t think they need the Big East whatsoever.

Conversely, why should the Big East offer something extra to get them, like allowing Gonzaga to keep any part of their ESPN arrangement? I suspect both sides are fine without each other. But, really, Gonzaga doesn’t have the leverage here.

Do they need the leverage? In 2018-2019, they made a $5.6 million dollar profit from basketball. They have finished in the top ten in each of the past five seasons. In 2018-2019, they appeared on ESPN or ESPN2 18 times in their 33 games before the NCAA Tournament. They have a great relationship with ESPN that has worked well for Gonzaga, the WCC and ESPN. The travel and their relationship with ESPN makes a move to the Big East a pipe dream. The grass looks greener on the other side of the country, but life in the WCC has worked well for Gonzaga.

Works well except for one small problem, they can't win a national championship. And this was as good a chance as they can get with Duke and Kentucky missing the tournament, Michigan State losing in the First Four, North Carolina in the first round, Kansas in the 2nd round, most of the Big Ten and ACC down. All they had to do in the championship game was beat Baylor. They had as many national championships as Gonzaga had and Scott Drew had as many national championships as Mark Few had. They were favored in that game. If you can't beat Baylor to win a national championship, how are you going to beat the teams you're not supposed to beat? Something's gotta change about Gonzaga. They're great teams, they can make great runs in the NCAA Tournament, maybe even the final. But they can't win. They've been a #1 seed 3 times since 2013 but have no national championships to show for it. A nothing program like Baylor gets a #1 seed once and can win a national championship. What does Baylor have that Gonzaga doesn't? More talent? No they didn't. Better coach. No they didn't.