(04-09-2021 08:31 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  If Gonzaga approached the Big East ... the Big East would be foolish not to listen. The Big East is no longer a "Northeast-centric" league (five of its programs are in the NE, Georgetown is Mid-Atlantic and five others are "North/Midwest"), so it would not be outlandish to add Gonzaga. Now, it would be a major challenge in some respects, I admit. Regardless, I doubt either party is interested.

GU likely has it much better in the WCC than we realize.

Bill,

1) GU is Georgetown University

And 2) at least since I matriculated, GU has been considered NE, a part of the BOS-WASH corridor. Georgetown is closer to MSG than Syracuse. Every other person I met at GU was from Jersey. Two roommates from Jersey, one from CT and one from RI.

(04-10-2021 08:36 PM)schmolik Wrote:  

(04-10-2021 05:12 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  

(04-08-2021 05:04 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(04-08-2021 12:45 PM)esayem Wrote:  Also, what’s in it for Gonzaga? They’ve lost two national championships the past five years. I don’t think they need the Big East whatsoever.

Conversely, why should the Big East offer something extra to get them, like allowing Gonzaga to keep any part of their ESPN arrangement? I suspect both sides are fine without each other. But, really, Gonzaga doesn’t have the leverage here.

Do they need the leverage? In 2018-2019, they made a $5.6 million dollar profit from basketball. They have finished in the top ten in each of the past five seasons. In 2018-2019, they appeared on ESPN or ESPN2 18 times in their 33 games before the NCAA Tournament. They have a great relationship with ESPN that has worked well for Gonzaga, the WCC and ESPN. The travel and their relationship with ESPN makes a move to the Big East a pipe dream. The grass looks greener on the other side of the country, but life in the WCC has worked well for Gonzaga.

Works well except for one small problem, they can't win a national championship. And this was as good a chance as they can get with Duke and Kentucky missing the tournament, Michigan State losing in the First Four, North Carolina in the first round, Kansas in the 2nd round, most of the Big Ten and ACC down. All they had to do in the championship game was beat Baylor. They had as many national championships as Gonzaga had and Scott Drew had as many national championships as Mark Few had. They were favored in that game. If you can't beat Baylor to win a national championship, how are you going to beat the teams you're not supposed to beat? Something's gotta change about Gonzaga. They're great teams, they can make great runs in the NCAA Tournament, maybe even the final. But they can't win. They've been a #1 seed 3 times since 2013 but have no national championships to show for it. A nothing program like Baylor gets a #1 seed once and can win a national championship. What does Baylor have that Gonzaga doesn't? More talent? No they didn't. Better coach. No they didn't.

This is an over-simplification of the topic, schmolik. Gonzaga "can" win it all — it simply has yet to.

Now, I do agree with you that Gongaza had a "perfect scenario" to win (with the heavy-hitters, collectively, being down) this year. If I were a GU fan, I would be sick to my stomach (just like I was when Memphis lost to Kansas in 2008). We might look back in 15 years when, hypothetically, Mark Few is retiring and GU has no national crown and note, "Yep, 2021 was the 'last chance.'" Who knows at this point. But to claim, as you do, with such certainty ... seems a bit bold.

And let's be fair: Baylor was outstanding. Even the great teams in the past from Kentucky, Duke, North Carolina, Louisville, Nova, Kansas, UCLA, Indiana, Syracuse, etc., would have faced a tough task from this Bears team.

(04-10-2021 08:36 PM)schmolik Wrote:  

(04-10-2021 05:12 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  

(04-08-2021 05:04 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(04-08-2021 12:45 PM)esayem Wrote:  Also, what’s in it for Gonzaga? They’ve lost two national championships the past five years. I don’t think they need the Big East whatsoever.

Conversely, why should the Big East offer something extra to get them, like allowing Gonzaga to keep any part of their ESPN arrangement? I suspect both sides are fine without each other. But, really, Gonzaga doesn’t have the leverage here.

Do they need the leverage? In 2018-2019, they made a $5.6 million dollar profit from basketball. They have finished in the top ten in each of the past five seasons. In 2018-2019, they appeared on ESPN or ESPN2 18 times in their 33 games before the NCAA Tournament. They have a great relationship with ESPN that has worked well for Gonzaga, the WCC and ESPN. The travel and their relationship with ESPN makes a move to the Big East a pipe dream. The grass looks greener on the other side of the country, but life in the WCC has worked well for Gonzaga.

Works well except for one small problem, they can't win a national championship. And this was as good a chance as they can get with Duke and Kentucky missing the tournament, Michigan State losing in the First Four, North Carolina in the first round, Kansas in the 2nd round, most of the Big Ten and ACC down. All they had to do in the championship game was beat Baylor. They had as many national championships as Gonzaga had and Scott Drew had as many national championships as Mark Few had. They were favored in that game. If you can't beat Baylor to win a national championship, how are you going to beat the teams you're not supposed to beat? Something's gotta change about Gonzaga. They're great teams, they can make great runs in the NCAA Tournament, maybe even the final. But they can't win. They've been a #1 seed 3 times since 2013 but have no national championships to show for it. A nothing program like Baylor gets a #1 seed once and can win a national championship. What does Baylor have that Gonzaga doesn't? More talent? No they didn't. Better coach. No they didn't.

Gonzaga has been to two championship games in the last five years. Losing twice in five years in the championship game means you were good enough to get there and that says a lot about your basketball program. Duke and Kentucky have not made a Final Four since 2015. Duke went to eight Final Fours without winning a championship, from 1963 to 1990. They lost six times in the championship game. They finally broke through on their 9th try. It is not supposed to be easy to make the Final Four and win a championship. Joining the Big East conference does not assure Gonzaga of anything. It just assures them of a lot of travel. It would be a dumb move.

(04-10-2021 10:18 PM)VCE Wrote:  

(04-09-2021 08:31 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  If Gonzaga approached the Big East ... the Big East would be foolish not to listen. The Big East is no longer a "Northeast-centric" league (five of its programs are in the NE, Georgetown is Mid-Atlantic and five others are "North/Midwest"), so it would not be outlandish to add Gonzaga. Now, it would be a major challenge in some respects, I admit. Regardless, I doubt either party is interested.

GU likely has it much better in the WCC than we realize.

Bill,

1) GU is Georgetown University

And 2) at least since I matriculated, GU has been considered NE, a part of the BOS-WASH corridor. Georgetown is closer to MSG than Syracuse. Every other person I met at GU was from Jersey. Two roommates from Jersey, one from CT and one from RI.

An interesting perspective, VCE.

As a member of the media in Nashville, I get a decent number of phone calls and emails from PR companies located in D.C. and — if I respond — I always ask/email the person: "Do you consider Washington D.C. a Northeastern, Southeastern or Mid-Atlantic city?" I do so because I'm curious to get their takes.

Many will answer with a combination of "Mid-Atlantic and Northeast" or "Mid-Atlantic and Southeast" ... but rarely to the people respond with strictly "Northeast" — and never solely "Southeast."

One of my best friends from high school in the Nashville area once lived in D.C. for a few years and he said he felt it was a mix of the Northeast and Southeast. And a good friend I worked with in the local Nashville media is now a nurse who lives in D.C. He loves the city and feels it is a combo of Northeast and Southeast.

My take (and, compared to me, you have a much better feel for this as you are a former Georgetown student and D.C. resident, so maybe I'm way off base) is that the D.C. culture (particularly from white and international residents) is more Northeast, while the climate and history are more Southeast (with the Black culture of the city having a largely Southeast background in terms of ancestry). ... thus the "Mid-Atlantic."

I suppose if I had ever lived in Washington D.C. I might consider it "75 percent or more Northeast." I simply view the city and region as "Mid-Atlantic." Perhaps I'm wrong.

(04-10-2021 10:38 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  My take (and, compared to me, you have a much better feel for this as you are a former Georgetown student and D.C. resident, so maybe I'm way off base) is that the D.C. culture (particularly from white and international residents) is more Northeast, while the climate and history are more Southeast (with the Black culture of the city having a largely Southeast background in terms of ancestry). ... thus the "Mid-Atlantic."

Thing is, if the University is located in the "Mid-Atlantic" but the majority of the student body comes from the Northeast, the majority of the student body is likely to have a bigger impact on the character of the school.

In the context, it makes no difference ... a trip to the "Northeast" or to the "Mid-Atlantic" is a much shorter trip than a trip to Spokane, Washington for the four Great Lakes schools, and for the bulk of the conference, annual trips in multiple sports to Spokane is equally mad whether a school is located in the "Northeast" or "Mid-Atlantic".

(04-10-2021 10:36 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  

(04-10-2021 08:36 PM)schmolik Wrote:  

(04-10-2021 05:12 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  

(04-08-2021 05:04 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(04-08-2021 12:45 PM)esayem Wrote:  Also, what’s in it for Gonzaga? They’ve lost two national championships the past five years. I don’t think they need the Big East whatsoever.

Conversely, why should the Big East offer something extra to get them, like allowing Gonzaga to keep any part of their ESPN arrangement? I suspect both sides are fine without each other. But, really, Gonzaga doesn’t have the leverage here.

Do they need the leverage? In 2018-2019, they made a $5.6 million dollar profit from basketball. They have finished in the top ten in each of the past five seasons. In 2018-2019, they appeared on ESPN or ESPN2 18 times in their 33 games before the NCAA Tournament. They have a great relationship with ESPN that has worked well for Gonzaga, the WCC and ESPN. The travel and their relationship with ESPN makes a move to the Big East a pipe dream. The grass looks greener on the other side of the country, but life in the WCC has worked well for Gonzaga.

Works well except for one small problem, they can't win a national championship. And this was as good a chance as they can get with Duke and Kentucky missing the tournament, Michigan State losing in the First Four, North Carolina in the first round, Kansas in the 2nd round, most of the Big Ten and ACC down. All they had to do in the championship game was beat Baylor. They had as many national championships as Gonzaga had and Scott Drew had as many national championships as Mark Few had. They were favored in that game. If you can't beat Baylor to win a national championship, how are you going to beat the teams you're not supposed to beat? Something's gotta change about Gonzaga. They're great teams, they can make great runs in the NCAA Tournament, maybe even the final. But they can't win. They've been a #1 seed 3 times since 2013 but have no national championships to show for it. A nothing program like Baylor gets a #1 seed once and can win a national championship. What does Baylor have that Gonzaga doesn't? More talent? No they didn't. Better coach. No they didn't.

Gonzaga has been to two championship games in the last five years. Losing twice in five years in the championship game means you were good enough to get there and that says a lot about your basketball program. Duke and Kentucky have not made a Final Four since 2015. Duke went to eight Final Fours without winning a championship, from 1963 to 1990. They lost six times in the championship game. They finally broke through on their 9th try. It is not supposed to be easy to make the Final Four and win a championship. Joining the Big East conference does not assure Gonzaga of anything. It just assures them of a lot of travel. It would be a dumb move.

I think the assumption would be that if they join the Big East and take that huge bill for travel, the conference move commits them to basketball whether Few is there still or not. Not unlike Butler and Xavier. Even if Gonzaga trips a bit after Few leaves, the thought would be that at least in this bigger conference, the recruiting edge over other non-majors could be there since the route back to their elevated level wouldn’t be a long one. Gonzaga finally realizes the “major team in a major conference” link.

I don’t disagree with you about the leverage bit, as I think the reason the move hasn’t happened is because of Gonzaga and not the Big East, and because Gonzaga’s ESPN deal is, imo, better for them than the Big East collective’s with Fox/FS1. But, when it comes to the long game, and Gonzaga down the road? If Gonzaga drops off its form (or has a season like it did about 3-4 years ago when it literally had to win AQ), ESPN stops showing up to televise their games. Meanwhile, there’s dead weight in the Big East (*cough* DePaul *cough*) who gets TV time simply being in the Big East. And you have the great Big East programs who also do good work in their non-conference schedules making it work together with their conference mates. It works for Gonzaga now...for now.

Let me say on record I don't support Gonzaga in the Big East no matter how good they are (and they are good). Eventually you have to have a geographical limit, which IMO is the Mississippi if you have teams on the East Coast, especially if you advertise yourself as the Big "East". Could Gonzaga join a better conference than the WCC? Yes, I feel the MWC is a better one, they will play a few more tougher conference games and play those later in the season. Will it be enough to get them over the hump? I can't answer that question. All I know is that in 2021 (and the years before then) the answer was the WCC wasn't good enough. So Gonzaga has two choices, keep doing the same thing year in and year out and hope it works one time or try something better.

FWIW, I don’t love the idea of them leaving the WCC for anywhere else, and I would HATE the loss of the SMC rivalry. But, Gonzaga has pushed the idea, which makes me believe they may be more willing to leave than one would think.

Just consider where Gonzaga might be if the enhancement plan didn’t pass. What, were they going to stay anyway?

(04-11-2021 06:13 AM)schmolik Wrote:  Let me say on record I don't support Gonzaga in the Big East no matter how good they are (and they are good). Eventually you have to have a geographical limit, which IMO is the Mississippi if you have teams on the East Coast, especially if you advertise yourself as the Big "East". Could Gonzaga join a better conference than the WCC? Yes, I feel the MWC is a better one, they will play a few more tougher conference games and play those later in the season. Will it be enough to get them over the hump? I can't answer that question. All I know is that in 2021 (and the years before then) the answer was the WCC wasn't good enough. So Gonzaga has two choices, keep doing the same thing year in and year out and hope it works one time or try something better.

With regards to ‘advertise yourself as the Big “East”’...naming conventions of college conferences are strictly for branding purposes. Conference names have nothing to do with geographic or mathematical accuracy.

How are Indiana and Kentucky schools located on the Atlantic/ACC?
How are Colorado, Utah and Arizona schools located on the Pacific/PAC?
How are Missouri and Texas schools in the Southeast/SEC?
The Big 10 has 14 members, while the Big XII only has X schools.

The facade of “East” was cracked with Notre Dame’s admission in 1995, then permanently dissolved with the expansion in 2005, and made an archaic vestige with the reconstruction in 2013. Geographically, the Big East and, overlapping, Big 10 are Northern US conferences. Currently, these conferences only have schools in the eastern and central time zones...but that is only because the right scenario hasn’t presented itself.

Maybe basketball revenue grows while transportation becomes faster and cheaper. Maybe the northern wing of the WCC (Gonzaga, St Mary’s, Univ of Portland and/or USF) outgrows the rest of the conference and needs a more challenging neighborhood. A continued western migration of the Big “East” doesn’t necessarily change the fundamental cultural cohesion of the conference.

That having been said, I believe that the WCC is a better home for Gonzaga.

(04-11-2021 08:19 AM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(04-11-2021 06:13 AM)schmolik Wrote:  Let me say on record I don't support Gonzaga in the Big East no matter how good they are (and they are good). Eventually you have to have a geographical limit, which IMO is the Mississippi if you have teams on the East Coast, especially if you advertise yourself as the Big "East". Could Gonzaga join a better conference than the WCC? Yes, I feel the MWC is a better one, they will play a few more tougher conference games and play those later in the season. Will it be enough to get them over the hump? I can't answer that question. All I know is that in 2021 (and the years before then) the answer was the WCC wasn't good enough. So Gonzaga has two choices, keep doing the same thing year in and year out and hope it works one time or try something better.

With regards to ‘advertise yourself as the Big “East”’...naming conventions of college conferences are strictly for branding purposes. Conference names have nothing to do with geographic or mathematical accuracy.

How are Indiana and Kentucky schools located on the Atlantic/ACC?
How are Colorado, Utah and Arizona schools located on the Pacific/PAC?
How are Missouri and Texas schools in the Southeast/SEC?
The Big 10 has 14 members, while the Big XII only has X schools.

The facade of “East” was cracked with Notre Dame’s admission in 1995, then permanently dissolved with the expansion in 2005, and made an archaic vestige with the reconstruction in 2013. Geographically, the Big East and, overlapping, Big 10 are Northern US conferences. Currently, these conferences only have schools in the eastern and central time zones...but that is only because the right scenario hasn’t presented itself.

Maybe basketball revenue grows while transportation becomes faster and cheaper. Maybe the northern wing of the WCC (Gonzaga, St Mary’s, Univ of Portland and/or USF) outgrows the rest of the conference and needs a more challenging neighborhood. A continued western migration of the Big “East” doesn’t necessarily change the fundamental cultural cohesion of the conference.

That having been said, I believe that the WCC is a better home for Gonzaga.

Good line with the Roman numerals:)

That being said, I was against the Big East moving to DePaul and Marquette in the early part of the decade, especially when Temple was being left out. I was also against Creighton joining. You can argue that they are a great men's basketball program with an excited fan base and they are a Catholic university that fits in well with the other Catholic universities of the Big East. Doesn't Dayton also fit the same profile and they are miles closer to Villanova, Georgetown, Seton Hall, and most importantly Xavier? And eventually you have to draw the line somewhere. The Big Ten stretches from New Jersey and Pennsylvania to Nebraska. So does the Big East. The SEC goes from South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida to Texas. There is no major conference that is coast to coast (Pioneer Football League which I personally think is stupid). Football maybe I can see it with once a week games. Men's basketball is a whole different beast and if Gonzaga moves all of its sports to the Big East you are then talking about coast to coast travel both directions for sports that don't make money and tons of athletes inconvenienced. It's bad enough Big East athletes have to travel to and from Omaha or Big Ten athletes have to travel to and from Lincoln. Spokane?

I think the 2015-16 and 2017-18 seasons embittered the program. That the non-conference didn’t go their way, and that even having to win the AQ in 15-16 to secure their spot (they weren’t getting in otherwise, only getting the 11-line), and the cruising through the conference in 17-18 but only getting a 4-line...the war with the majority of the WCC was on.

I don’t know if those seasons in the Mountain West or better would have yielded more security or better seeding, but, I do get the impression Gonzaga thought the WCC anchored them more than necessary. 2015-16 especially, since even that “down year” got them to the Sweet Sixteen.

I don’t blame them for looking or considering greener pastures. Having to make a death march in the non-conference has them assuming way too much risk on it, win or lose, but the conference sucking hard at the bottom doesn’t help them any, if not hurting more. I mean, yikes...I like Gonzaga a lot, but, they are working too hard out there.

(04-11-2021 04:41 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(04-10-2021 10:38 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  My take (and, compared to me, you have a much better feel for this as you are a former Georgetown student and D.C. resident, so maybe I'm way off base) is that the D.C. culture (particularly from white and international residents) is more Northeast, while the climate and history are more Southeast (with the Black culture of the city having a largely Southeast background in terms of ancestry). ... thus the "Mid-Atlantic."

Thing is, if the University is located in the "Mid-Atlantic" but the majority of the student body comes from the Northeast, the majority of the student body is likely to have a bigger impact on the character of the school.

In the context, it makes no difference ... a trip to the "Northeast" or to the "Mid-Atlantic" is a much shorter trip than a trip to Spokane, Washington for the four Great Lakes schools, and for the bulk of the conference, annual trips in multiple sports to Spokane is equally mad whether a school is located in the "Northeast" or "Mid-Atlantic".

Some good points, Bruce. Perhaps the best way to frame it is ...

Georgetown offers a "Northeast-esque university feel" and Washington D.C., more broadly, has a "Mid-Atlantic vibe."

(04-11-2021 05:44 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(04-10-2021 10:36 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  

(04-10-2021 08:36 PM)schmolik Wrote:  

(04-10-2021 05:12 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  

(04-08-2021 05:04 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  Conversely, why should the Big East offer something extra to get them, like allowing Gonzaga to keep any part of their ESPN arrangement? I suspect both sides are fine without each other. But, really, Gonzaga doesn’t have the leverage here.

Do they need the leverage? In 2018-2019, they made a $5.6 million dollar profit from basketball. They have finished in the top ten in each of the past five seasons. In 2018-2019, they appeared on ESPN or ESPN2 18 times in their 33 games before the NCAA Tournament. They have a great relationship with ESPN that has worked well for Gonzaga, the WCC and ESPN. The travel and their relationship with ESPN makes a move to the Big East a pipe dream. The grass looks greener on the other side of the country, but life in the WCC has worked well for Gonzaga.

Works well except for one small problem, they can't win a national championship. And this was as good a chance as they can get with Duke and Kentucky missing the tournament, Michigan State losing in the First Four, North Carolina in the first round, Kansas in the 2nd round, most of the Big Ten and ACC down. All they had to do in the championship game was beat Baylor. They had as many national championships as Gonzaga had and Scott Drew had as many national championships as Mark Few had. They were favored in that game. If you can't beat Baylor to win a national championship, how are you going to beat the teams you're not supposed to beat? Something's gotta change about Gonzaga. They're great teams, they can make great runs in the NCAA Tournament, maybe even the final. But they can't win. They've been a #1 seed 3 times since 2013 but have no national championships to show for it. A nothing program like Baylor gets a #1 seed once and can win a national championship. What does Baylor have that Gonzaga doesn't? More talent? No they didn't. Better coach. No they didn't.

Gonzaga has been to two championship games in the last five years. Losing twice in five years in the championship game means you were good enough to get there and that says a lot about your basketball program. Duke and Kentucky have not made a Final Four since 2015. Duke went to eight Final Fours without winning a championship, from 1963 to 1990. They lost six times in the championship game. They finally broke through on their 9th try. It is not supposed to be easy to make the Final Four and win a championship. Joining the Big East conference does not assure Gonzaga of anything. It just assures them of a lot of travel. It would be a dumb move.

I think the assumption would be that if they join the Big East and take that huge bill for travel, the conference move commits them to basketball whether Few is there still or not. Not unlike Butler and Xavier. Even if Gonzaga trips a bit after Few leaves, the thought would be that at least in this bigger conference, the recruiting edge over other non-majors could be there since the route back to their elevated level wouldn’t be a long one. Gonzaga finally realizes the “major team in a major conference” link.

I don’t disagree with you about the leverage bit, as I think the reason the move hasn’t happened is because of Gonzaga and not the Big East, and because Gonzaga’s ESPN deal is, imo, better for them than the Big East collective’s with Fox/FS1. But, when it comes to the long game, and Gonzaga down the road? If Gonzaga drops off its form (or has a season like it did about 3-4 years ago when it literally had to win AQ), ESPN stops showing up to televise their games. Meanwhile, there’s dead weight in the Big East (*cough* DePaul *cough*) who gets TV time simply being in the Big East. And you have the great Big East programs who also do good work in their non-conference schedules making it work together with their conference mates. It works for Gonzaga now...for now.

Are you suggesting the Gonzaga program is "mid-major," Cutter?

(04-11-2021 08:46 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(04-11-2021 08:19 AM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(04-11-2021 06:13 AM)schmolik Wrote:  Let me say on record I don't support Gonzaga in the Big East no matter how good they are (and they are good). Eventually you have to have a geographical limit, which IMO is the Mississippi if you have teams on the East Coast, especially if you advertise yourself as the Big "East". Could Gonzaga join a better conference than the WCC? Yes, I feel the MWC is a better one, they will play a few more tougher conference games and play those later in the season. Will it be enough to get them over the hump? I can't answer that question. All I know is that in 2021 (and the years before then) the answer was the WCC wasn't good enough. So Gonzaga has two choices, keep doing the same thing year in and year out and hope it works one time or try something better.

With regards to ‘advertise yourself as the Big “East”’...naming conventions of college conferences are strictly for branding purposes. Conference names have nothing to do with geographic or mathematical accuracy.

How are Indiana and Kentucky schools located on the Atlantic/ACC?
How are Colorado, Utah and Arizona schools located on the Pacific/PAC?
How are Missouri and Texas schools in the Southeast/SEC?
The Big 10 has 14 members, while the Big XII only has X schools.

The facade of “East” was cracked with Notre Dame’s admission in 1995, then permanently dissolved with the expansion in 2005, and made an archaic vestige with the reconstruction in 2013. Geographically, the Big East and, overlapping, Big 10 are Northern US conferences. Currently, these conferences only have schools in the eastern and central time zones...but that is only because the right scenario hasn’t presented itself.

Maybe basketball revenue grows while transportation becomes faster and cheaper. Maybe the northern wing of the WCC (Gonzaga, St Mary’s, Univ of Portland and/or USF) outgrows the rest of the conference and needs a more challenging neighborhood. A continued western migration of the Big “East” doesn’t necessarily change the fundamental cultural cohesion of the conference.

That having been said, I believe that the WCC is a better home for Gonzaga.

Good line with the Roman numerals:)

That being said, I was against the Big East moving to DePaul and Marquette in the early part of the decade, especially when Temple was being left out. I was also against Creighton joining. You can argue that they are a great men's basketball program with an excited fan base and they are a Catholic university that fits in well with the other Catholic universities of the Big East. Doesn't Dayton also fit the same profile and they are miles closer to Villanova, Georgetown, Seton Hall, and most importantly Xavier? And eventually you have to draw the line somewhere. The Big Ten stretches from New Jersey and Pennsylvania to Nebraska. So does the Big East. The SEC goes from South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida to Texas. There is no major conference that is coast to coast (Pioneer Football League which I personally think is stupid). Football maybe I can see it with once a week games. Men's basketball is a whole different beast and if Gonzaga moves all of its sports to the Big East you are then talking about coast to coast travel both directions for sports that don't make money and tons of athletes inconvenienced. It's bad enough Big East athletes have to travel to and from Omaha or Big Ten athletes have to travel to and from Lincoln. Spokane?

So, and assuming we "toss" Creighton, DePaul, Xavier, Marquette and Butler in this hypothetical, what would be your ideal Big East membership lineup?

(04-11-2021 10:06 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(04-11-2021 04:41 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(04-10-2021 10:38 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  My take (and, compared to me, you have a much better feel for this as you are a former Georgetown student and D.C. resident, so maybe I'm way off base) is that the D.C. culture (particularly from white and international residents) is more Northeast, while the climate and history are more Southeast (with the Black culture of the city having a largely Southeast background in terms of ancestry). ... thus the "Mid-Atlantic."

Thing is, if the University is located in the "Mid-Atlantic" but the majority of the student body comes from the Northeast, the majority of the student body is likely to have a bigger impact on the character of the school.

In the context, it makes no difference ... a trip to the "Northeast" or to the "Mid-Atlantic" is a much shorter trip than a trip to Spokane, Washington for the four Great Lakes schools, and for the bulk of the conference, annual trips in multiple sports to Spokane is equally mad whether a school is located in the "Northeast" or "Mid-Atlantic".

Some good points, Bruce. Perhaps the best way to frame it is ...

Georgetown offers a "Northeast-esque university feel" and Washington D.C., more broadly, has a "Mid-Atlantic vibe."

It’s getting into the weeds here, sort of like distinguishing the Great Lakes Midwest versus the southern or plains portions of the Midwest (e.g. Cincinnati, Indianapolis, St. Louis). As a lifelong Chicagoan, I’ve always looked at DC (and everything North up to Boston and New England) as the “East Coast” and anything south of DC is the Southeast. As an outsider, the distinction between Northeast and Mid-Atlantic never even occurred to me until I frankly started following conference realignment. It was always just all “The East Coast” to me.

I’m sure people from outside of the Midwest just lump in Chicago and Detroit with places like St. Louis and Indianapolis simply because of geography even though *I* see tons of differences culturally having grown up here all my life. In reality, most of them are probably more micro-differences that are barely perceptible to outsiders, but proximity brings unusual hyperawareness of those micro-differences.

It's been my impression that D.C., like NYC and L.A. are very transient cities.

(04-11-2021 10:09 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(04-11-2021 08:46 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(04-11-2021 08:19 AM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(04-11-2021 06:13 AM)schmolik Wrote:  Let me say on record I don't support Gonzaga in the Big East no matter how good they are (and they are good). Eventually you have to have a geographical limit, which IMO is the Mississippi if you have teams on the East Coast, especially if you advertise yourself as the Big "East". Could Gonzaga join a better conference than the WCC? Yes, I feel the MWC is a better one, they will play a few more tougher conference games and play those later in the season. Will it be enough to get them over the hump? I can't answer that question. All I know is that in 2021 (and the years before then) the answer was the WCC wasn't good enough. So Gonzaga has two choices, keep doing the same thing year in and year out and hope it works one time or try something better.

With regards to ‘advertise yourself as the Big “East”’...naming conventions of college conferences are strictly for branding purposes. Conference names have nothing to do with geographic or mathematical accuracy.

How are Indiana and Kentucky schools located on the Atlantic/ACC?
How are Colorado, Utah and Arizona schools located on the Pacific/PAC?
How are Missouri and Texas schools in the Southeast/SEC?
The Big 10 has 14 members, while the Big XII only has X schools.

The facade of “East” was cracked with Notre Dame’s admission in 1995, then permanently dissolved with the expansion in 2005, and made an archaic vestige with the reconstruction in 2013. Geographically, the Big East and, overlapping, Big 10 are Northern US conferences. Currently, these conferences only have schools in the eastern and central time zones...but that is only because the right scenario hasn’t presented itself.

Maybe basketball revenue grows while transportation becomes faster and cheaper. Maybe the northern wing of the WCC (Gonzaga, St Mary’s, Univ of Portland and/or USF) outgrows the rest of the conference and needs a more challenging neighborhood. A continued western migration of the Big “East” doesn’t necessarily change the fundamental cultural cohesion of the conference.

That having been said, I believe that the WCC is a better home for Gonzaga.

Good line with the Roman numerals:)

That being said, I was against the Big East moving to DePaul and Marquette in the early part of the decade, especially when Temple was being left out. I was also against Creighton joining. You can argue that they are a great men's basketball program with an excited fan base and they are a Catholic university that fits in well with the other Catholic universities of the Big East. Doesn't Dayton also fit the same profile and they are miles closer to Villanova, Georgetown, Seton Hall, and most importantly Xavier? And eventually you have to draw the line somewhere. The Big Ten stretches from New Jersey and Pennsylvania to Nebraska. So does the Big East. The SEC goes from South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida to Texas. There is no major conference that is coast to coast (Pioneer Football League which I personally think is stupid). Football maybe I can see it with once a week games. Men's basketball is a whole different beast and if Gonzaga moves all of its sports to the Big East you are then talking about coast to coast travel both directions for sports that don't make money and tons of athletes inconvenienced. It's bad enough Big East athletes have to travel to and from Omaha or Big Ten athletes have to travel to and from Lincoln. Spokane?

So, and assuming we "toss" Creighton, DePaul, Xavier, Marquette and Butler in this hypothetical, what would be your ideal Big East membership lineup?

Well my ideal conference for both Villanova and Connecticut would be the ACC (minus a few of the schools that don't care about men's basketball). If I can't have that, then I would want to have sort of the old Big East back including Syracuse, Pittsburgh, and Boston College.

Assuming neither is a possibility, I don't think the Big East completely has to be "East". I grew up in a world where the Cubs were in the National League East. My main objection to DePaul and Marquette in the Big East was that Temple wasn't allowed in. If I were in charge, Temple would be allowed in if it wanted (now would they want in I can't answer). I'd also make the same offer to Cincinnati if they wanted in. Assuming Temple and Cincinnati say no, Xavier, Butler, and Marquette would stay. I'd replace DePaul with Loyola and Creighton with Dayton. If one says yes and one says no, I'd have a conference of 12. If Temple and Cincinnati both say yes, I'd probably leave Marquette out in favor of Dayton and Loyola (Loyola, Butler, Cincinnati, Dayton, Xavier, Georgetown, Villanova, Temple, Seton Hall, St. John's, Connecticut, Providence).

(04-11-2021 10:07 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  Are you suggesting the Gonzaga program is "mid-major," Cutter?

No. Very much a major but in very much a non-major conference. But, unlike those programs over in the AAC, A10, or MWC, Gonzaga, when things don’t hold up in the non-conference, the pain of the conference schedule doesn’t help, whereas in those other places, it can help some get over the hump.

I look at VCU, Wichita State, and Utah State this year, and I suspect the conference overall, even if the top was thin, had a broad enough middle that helped project their bid worthiness, even if they couldn’t win their conference titles and earn the AQ’s. Counter that to the 2015-16 Gonzaga team, who did FAR better in the WCC respectively, and, yet, didn’t get help within because other than Saint Mary’s and maybe BYU, the conference stunk. That’s a unique problem to have...and there are lesser programs who benefit from better conference surroundings. It definitely helped VCU that Richmond, Dayton, Davidson, and Saint Louis were alright. Likewise, it helped Utah State that Colorado State and Boise State were competent, and Memphis propping up Wichita State. Gonzaga, if they’re not the WCC’s best (because Saint Mary’s or BYU has a fantastic team), lives and dies on the non-conference or winning the AQ. There is much less nuance. And that just sucks for them.

(04-11-2021 10:07 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  Are you suggesting the Gonzaga program is "mid-major," Cutter?

Again, what was separating Baylor from Gonzaga this year? Or better yet, Baylor from Houston? This was the year a "mid major" could have broken through and won. I hated the 2021 NCAA Tournament for a ton of reasons but outside of the Jalen Suggs shot and UCLA shot before end my lasting impression of the Final Four was the little guys got their chance to win the Big Dance but still couldn't. If you throw UCLA out the window, you have one school that's in the "club" and two schools that aren't. And why is the one school in the club and the other two aren't? OK Gonzaga I can get. We all know the story. In the early 90's, Houston and Baylor were in the same conference. In the 80's, Houston made three Final Fours and Baylor was irrelevant. Then Baylor gets forced into the Big 12 while Houston gets left out. If Baylor's not in the Big 12, they're no better than Houston or Gonzaga. Why does Scott Drew come to Baylor and not Houston (or better yet, why wouldn't he just stay at Valparaiso?) If Houston's in the Big 12 instead of Baylor, where do you think Butler goes to school? .You know who the MVP of the 2021 national championship is? It isn't Jared Butler or Scott Drew, it's Bob Bullock.

Gonzaga and Houston aren't mid major level but their conferences are holding them back and there is a ceiling and 2021 showed them that ceiling. No one expects them to beat Duke or Kentucky but if they can't beat Baylor when are they going to win? In the CFP this year, an unbeaten Cincinnati got left out but it was for a one loss team that lost to an undefeated team and it was still Notre Dame. Once undefeated G-5's get left out in favor of second level P-5's, then I'll really be convinced there's bias against them (not that there isn't already but it's still Notre Dame).

(04-11-2021 11:56 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(04-11-2021 10:09 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(04-11-2021 08:46 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(04-11-2021 08:19 AM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(04-11-2021 06:13 AM)schmolik Wrote:  Let me say on record I don't support Gonzaga in the Big East no matter how good they are (and they are good). Eventually you have to have a geographical limit, which IMO is the Mississippi if you have teams on the East Coast, especially if you advertise yourself as the Big "East". Could Gonzaga join a better conference than the WCC? Yes, I feel the MWC is a better one, they will play a few more tougher conference games and play those later in the season. Will it be enough to get them over the hump? I can't answer that question. All I know is that in 2021 (and the years before then) the answer was the WCC wasn't good enough. So Gonzaga has two choices, keep doing the same thing year in and year out and hope it works one time or try something better.

With regards to ‘advertise yourself as the Big “East”’...naming conventions of college conferences are strictly for branding purposes. Conference names have nothing to do with geographic or mathematical accuracy.

How are Indiana and Kentucky schools located on the Atlantic/ACC?
How are Colorado, Utah and Arizona schools located on the Pacific/PAC?
How are Missouri and Texas schools in the Southeast/SEC?
The Big 10 has 14 members, while the Big XII only has X schools.

The facade of “East” was cracked with Notre Dame’s admission in 1995, then permanently dissolved with the expansion in 2005, and made an archaic vestige with the reconstruction in 2013. Geographically, the Big East and, overlapping, Big 10 are Northern US conferences. Currently, these conferences only have schools in the eastern and central time zones...but that is only because the right scenario hasn’t presented itself.

Maybe basketball revenue grows while transportation becomes faster and cheaper. Maybe the northern wing of the WCC (Gonzaga, St Mary’s, Univ of Portland and/or USF) outgrows the rest of the conference and needs a more challenging neighborhood. A continued western migration of the Big “East” doesn’t necessarily change the fundamental cultural cohesion of the conference.

That having been said, I believe that the WCC is a better home for Gonzaga.

Good line with the Roman numerals:)

That being said, I was against the Big East moving to DePaul and Marquette in the early part of the decade, especially when Temple was being left out. I was also against Creighton joining. You can argue that they are a great men's basketball program with an excited fan base and they are a Catholic university that fits in well with the other Catholic universities of the Big East. Doesn't Dayton also fit the same profile and they are miles closer to Villanova, Georgetown, Seton Hall, and most importantly Xavier? And eventually you have to draw the line somewhere. The Big Ten stretches from New Jersey and Pennsylvania to Nebraska. So does the Big East. The SEC goes from South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida to Texas. There is no major conference that is coast to coast (Pioneer Football League which I personally think is stupid). Football maybe I can see it with once a week games. Men's basketball is a whole different beast and if Gonzaga moves all of its sports to the Big East you are then talking about coast to coast travel both directions for sports that don't make money and tons of athletes inconvenienced. It's bad enough Big East athletes have to travel to and from Omaha or Big Ten athletes have to travel to and from Lincoln. Spokane?

So, and assuming we "toss" Creighton, DePaul, Xavier, Marquette and Butler in this hypothetical, what would be your ideal Big East membership lineup?

Well my ideal conference for both Villanova and Connecticut would be the ACC (minus a few of the schools that don't care about men's basketball). If I can't have that, then I would want to have sort of the old Big East back including Syracuse, Pittsburgh, and Boston College.

Assuming neither is a possibility, I don't think the Big East completely has to be "East". I grew up in a world where the Cubs were in the National League East. My main objection to DePaul and Marquette in the Big East was that Temple wasn't allowed in. If I were in charge, Temple would be allowed in if it wanted (now would they want in I can't answer). I'd also make the same offer to Cincinnati if they wanted in. Assuming Temple and Cincinnati say no, Xavier, Butler, and Marquette would stay. I'd replace DePaul with Loyola and Creighton with Dayton. If one says yes and one says no, I'd have a conference of 12. If Temple and Cincinnati both say yes, I'd probably leave Marquette out in favor of Dayton and Loyola (Loyola, Butler, Cincinnati, Dayton, Xavier, Georgetown, Villanova, Temple, Seton Hall, St. John's, Connecticut, Providence).

That's the type specificity I was seeking. Interesting.

Thanks, schmolik.