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So when is Gonzaga going to a real conference?
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Todor Offline
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Post: #41
RE: So when is Gonzaga going to a real conference?
One way the WCC might be a bit of a hindrance for WCC- yes, Gonzaga and everyone else can schedule up and beat lots of power conference schools. But those games are earlier in the season and months in the past. The early season teams arent the same teams as they are later in the season.

In the meat of the conference season when the standings are truly being decided, the best teams are really starting to hit on all cylinders and have to bring their best game most nights just to win.

In the Big 10 and Big 12 you have teams in the bottom half of the standings who are top 25 teams. You have 8th place team a playing for their lives with a chance to still get a tourney bid with the opportunity of a Kansas or Baylor coming to your place. There are hungrier teams with more to play for more often than the WCC can offer.

The WCC is fine, but cannot replicate the experience of other conferences. And I think that is what Gonzaga struggled with. Tired from UCLA? So what. A team like Baylor had a whole season of that.
(This post was last modified: 04-06-2021 03:50 PM by Todor.)
04-06-2021 03:48 PM
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jdgaucho Offline
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Post: #42
RE: So when is Gonzaga going to a real conference?
(04-06-2021 03:43 PM)virgosports Wrote:  
(04-06-2021 02:21 PM)schmolik Wrote:  2000-2019 (First Four Games Excluded)

WCC (Not Counting Gonzaga):
BYU: 3 wins, 1 Sweet 16 (2011)
St. Mary's: 3 wins, 1 Sweet 16 (2010)
No one else won a game. Pacific made the 2013 Tournament as a Big West member
Total: 6 wins, 2 Sweet 16's

MWC:
San Diego State, 6 wins, 2 Sweet 16's (2011, 2014)
Nevada, 2 wins, 1 Sweet 16 (2018)
New Mexico, 2 wins
Colorado State, 1 win
Total: 11 wins, 3 Sweet 16's

Taking out Gonzaga, MWC teams made 25 NCAA appearances between 2000-19 while WCC teams made 10. Only four WCC teams (counting Gonzaga) made an NCAA appearance since 2010. Nine of 11 MWC teams have (only Air Force and San Jose State haven't).

If you go from 2000-2019, you'll see similar results. Only San Jose State hasn't made the NCAA's from the MWC while four out of ten WCC teams (Loyola Marymount, Santa Clara, San Francisco, and Portland) haven't made the tournament. There is no doubt to me the MWC is a stronger and deeper conference.

What’s incorrect with this type of comparison is that If you take out Gonzaga ( assuming Gonzaga is not in the conference and dominating) then someone else would have won it potentially and number of schools going to ncaa could have been higher and potentially the number of wins. What happens if you take SDSU out of MWC at the same time when you take out Gonzaga? How would the comparison look?

Didn't USD win a game in 2008??
04-06-2021 03:51 PM
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TDenverFan Online
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Post: #43
RE: So when is Gonzaga going to a real conference?
To me, it seems like the WCC and MWC are generally reasonably comparable basketball wise, as it is. If you move Gonzaga to the MWC, it is generally going to be marginally stronger than the current WCC. I think Gonzaga likes associating with the private religious schools in the WCC, so the MWC + Gonzaga is not strong enough basketball wise to justify the move.
04-06-2021 03:54 PM
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IWokeUpLikeThis Online
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Post: #44
RE: So when is Gonzaga going to a real conference?
(04-06-2021 03:51 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  
(04-06-2021 03:43 PM)virgosports Wrote:  
(04-06-2021 02:21 PM)schmolik Wrote:  2000-2019 (First Four Games Excluded)

WCC (Not Counting Gonzaga):
BYU: 3 wins, 1 Sweet 16 (2011)
St. Mary's: 3 wins, 1 Sweet 16 (2010)
No one else won a game. Pacific made the 2013 Tournament as a Big West member
Total: 6 wins, 2 Sweet 16's

MWC:
San Diego State, 6 wins, 2 Sweet 16's (2011, 2014)
Nevada, 2 wins, 1 Sweet 16 (2018)
New Mexico, 2 wins
Colorado State, 1 win
Total: 11 wins, 3 Sweet 16's

Taking out Gonzaga, MWC teams made 25 NCAA appearances between 2000-19 while WCC teams made 10. Only four WCC teams (counting Gonzaga) made an NCAA appearance since 2010. Nine of 11 MWC teams have (only Air Force and San Jose State haven't).

If you go from 2000-2019, you'll see similar results. Only San Jose State hasn't made the NCAA's from the MWC while four out of ten WCC teams (Loyola Marymount, Santa Clara, San Francisco, and Portland) haven't made the tournament. There is no doubt to me the MWC is a stronger and deeper conference.

What’s incorrect with this type of comparison is that If you take out Gonzaga ( assuming Gonzaga is not in the conference and dominating) then someone else would have won it potentially and number of schools going to ncaa could have been higher and potentially the number of wins. What happens if you take SDSU out of MWC at the same time when you take out Gonzaga? How would the comparison look?

Didn't USD win a game in 2008??

Yes, that caught my eye right away. San Diego, who had just hired Gonzaga assistant Bill Grier, beat UConn in 2008 when PG Brandon Johnson went off. Johnson then gambled and bet against the team in subsequent years, IIRC, derailing San Diego's program and Grier's career.
04-06-2021 04:25 PM
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CardinalJim Offline
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Post: #45
RE: So when is Gonzaga going to a real conference?
(04-06-2021 09:40 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  Add USC to the WCC and its a "real" conference.

07-coffee3

As a former SC season ticket holder I can tell you that would never happen. Not in a million lifetimes....

SC is a PAC program through and through.

Folks in the east tend to write west coast football off but it’s every bit as exciting as SEC, Big Ten or ACC football. Cal vs. Stanford is as big as anything played in the East.
(This post was last modified: 04-06-2021 05:04 PM by CardinalJim.)
04-06-2021 04:47 PM
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UpStreamRedTeam Offline
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Post: #46
RE: So when is Gonzaga going to a real conference?
(04-06-2021 04:47 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  
(04-06-2021 09:40 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  Add USC to the WCC and its a "real" conference.

07-coffee3

As a former SC season ticket holder I can tell you that would never happen. Not in a million lifetimes....

SC is a PAC program through and through.

Folks in the east tend to write west coast football but it’s every bit as exciting as SEC, Big Ten or ACC football. Cal vs. Stanford is as big as anything played in the East.

The PAC-12 wasn't a problem when USC was winning NCs in football and UCLA and Arizona were going to Final Fours regularly. They are in a bit of a downcycle but there is nothing wrong with the PAC-12.
(This post was last modified: 04-07-2021 11:18 AM by UpStreamRedTeam.)
04-06-2021 04:55 PM
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Post: #47
RE: So when is Gonzaga going to a real conference?
Gonzaga is fine where they are. They have the most NCAA wins in the last 5 years, so the conference isn't the problem. I think Baylor was just better and more rested. Remember, they paused in Feb for Covid and went out early in the Big 12 tourney.
04-07-2021 08:52 AM
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ArmyBlazer Offline
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Post: #48
RE: So when is Gonzaga going to a real conference?
(04-07-2021 08:52 AM)fsquid Wrote:  Gonzaga is fine where they are. They have the most NCAA wins in the last 5 years, so the conference isn't the problem. I think Baylor was just better and more rested. Remember, they paused in Feb for Covid and went out early in the Big 12 tourney.

I agree. While the WCC doesn’t do them any favors, I also think the weak conference argument is overrated. Baylor was just a better team. It happens.
04-07-2021 09:03 AM
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Bogg Offline
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Post: #49
RE: So when is Gonzaga going to a real conference?
(04-06-2021 03:54 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  I think Gonzaga likes associating with the private religious schools in the WCC,

Gonzaga likes being able to run the WCC the same way Texas likes being able to run the Big 12, but with Gonzaga there isn't even an Oklahoma equivalent to rein them in. They get to dictate the conference season and the structure of the conference tournament to best suit their needs. In the MW they're the best basketball school in a football conference. Big change in the power dynamic.

Also, if I'm remembering correctly, Gonzaga's got a pretty cozy relationship with ESPN and going to the MW would move them off that network, for whatever that's worth.
04-07-2021 09:25 AM
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UpStreamRedTeam Offline
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Post: #50
RE: So when is Gonzaga going to a real conference?
(04-07-2021 09:25 AM)Bogg Wrote:  
(04-06-2021 03:54 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  I think Gonzaga likes associating with the private religious schools in the WCC,

Gonzaga likes being able to run the WCC the same way Texas likes being able to run the Big 12, but with Gonzaga there isn't even an Oklahoma equivalent to rein them in. They get to dictate the conference season and the structure of the conference tournament to best suit their needs. In the MW they're the best basketball school in a football conference. Big change in the power dynamic.

Also, if I'm remembering correctly, Gonzaga's got a pretty cozy relationship with ESPN and going to the MW would move them off that network, for whatever that's worth.

All the more reason for them to stay in the WCC. They would be crazy to leave the WCC.

1) They call the shots in the conference
2) They can get #1 seeds
3) They can get an at large bid if they don't win the conference tournament
4) They can recruit who they want
5) They can play who the want OOC

If they weren't getting out of the first weekend as a #1 seed ever year the lack of competition in conference would be a legitimate argument, but that's not the issue. Baylor clowned a lot of good teams this year, there is no sense in throwing the baby out with the bath water over one game.
04-07-2021 10:15 AM
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VCE Offline
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Post: #51
RE: So when is Gonzaga going to a real conference?
(04-06-2021 04:47 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  
(04-06-2021 09:40 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  Add USC to the WCC and its a "real" conference.

07-coffee3

As a former SC season ticket holder I can tell you that would never happen. Not in a million lifetimes....

SC is a PAC program through and through.

Folks in the east tend to write west coast football off but it’s every bit as exciting as SEC, Big Ten or ACC football. Cal vs. Stanford is as big as anything played in the East.

03-lmfao

I can name 5 plus matchups in the SEC that are far bigger.
04-07-2021 11:01 AM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #52
RE: So when is Gonzaga going to a real conference?
(04-07-2021 11:01 AM)VCE Wrote:  
(04-06-2021 04:47 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  
(04-06-2021 09:40 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  Add USC to the WCC and its a "real" conference.

07-coffee3

As a former SC season ticket holder I can tell you that would never happen. Not in a million lifetimes....

SC is a PAC program through and through.

Folks in the east tend to write west coast football off but it’s every bit as exciting as SEC, Big Ten or ACC football. Cal vs. Stanford is as big as anything played in the East.

03-lmfao

I can name 5 plus matchups in the SEC that are far bigger.


I think C-Jim means "bigger" in a different way than the "big" SEC games are defined.

The Cal vs. Stanford game involves various interesting elements that go beyond football. If anything, it pits two of the nation's top 10 academic universities and league rivals in DI football. There is no other example of that.

Army vs. Navy is as big as SEC "bigness" too — just in very different ways.

I understand C-Jim's point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Game_(..._football)
04-07-2021 01:06 PM
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Post: #53
RE: So when is Gonzaga going to a real conference?
What Gonzaga needs to do, and they may already have done so, is to get the WCC to start the conference season a week early opening up 2 slots for Feb. non conference matchups. I'm sure ESPN could arrange an opponent.
04-07-2021 01:39 PM
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Post: #54
RE: So when is Gonzaga going to a real conference?
(04-06-2021 09:38 AM)jgkojak Wrote:  It was obvious from both Final Four games that Gonzaga was bothered by the physical size and talent level of P5 teams.

So when are they going to a real conference for some better competition?

Candidates:
Mountain West
Would be welcomed with open arms as a non-football member, conference provides only a slight upgrade but they would have some real P5 competition.

Pac-12
The real upgrade, but its unlikely the PAC wants competition for WU and WSU media market-wise, and they'd have to find a 14th member for basketball (SDSU?)

Big East
This is, of course, where Gonzaga belongs with their other Catholic school peers. But the travel would just be too much - their closest team is Creighton. Would it be worth working out a travel schedule (a week on the road, a week off) that works for the students?

Reverse the Process: WCC brings in better schools
Would BYU consider joining the WCC? Unlikely, but a couple more decent teams would assist Gonzaga as well.

This loss has to sting, and despite recent statements, has to have Gonzaga thinking about how to make that next step.

BYU is in the WCC. Any other teams for suggestions???
04-07-2021 01:44 PM
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schmolik Online
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Post: #55
RE: So when is Gonzaga going to a real conference?
(04-07-2021 01:39 PM)fsquid Wrote:  What Gonzaga needs to do, and they may already have done so, is to get the WCC to start the conference season a week early opening up 2 slots for Feb. non conference matchups. I'm sure ESPN could arrange an opponent.

You assume other conferences are willing to schedule non conference opponents in February. The SEC and Big 12 schedule their challenge in January, they use to have Bracket Buster, and the Big East and AAC now have an odd number of teams in men's basketball although travel between Gonzaga and the East Coast is going to be a challenge in January and February.
04-07-2021 01:46 PM
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fsquid Online
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Post: #56
RE: So when is Gonzaga going to a real conference?
(04-07-2021 01:46 PM)schmolik Wrote:  
(04-07-2021 01:39 PM)fsquid Wrote:  What Gonzaga needs to do, and they may already have done so, is to get the WCC to start the conference season a week early opening up 2 slots for Feb. non conference matchups. I'm sure ESPN could arrange an opponent.

You assume other conferences are willing to schedule non conference opponents in February. The SEC and Big 12 schedule their challenge in January, they use to have Bracket Buster, and the Big East and AAC now have an odd number of teams in men's basketball although travel between Gonzaga and the East Coast is going to be a challenge in January and February.

Correct and just thumbing through the Wikipedia, it looks like they haven't been able to schedule that sort of game since 2015 when they played my beloved Memphis Tigers.

I'm guessing after that is when the conference got to even numbers.
04-07-2021 02:07 PM
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Post: #57
RE: So when is Gonzaga going to a real conference?
(04-07-2021 01:39 PM)fsquid Wrote:  What Gonzaga needs to do, and they may already have done so, is to get the WCC to start the conference season a week early opening up 2 slots for Feb. non conference matchups. I'm sure ESPN could arrange an opponent.

Yep. UNLV was able to do this fairly successfully in the late 80s and early 90s. Look at their schedules from then, and they would be playing 4 PCAA (Big West) games in December and 4 high-profile OOC games (usually on network TV) in January & February.

I sense it is much harder to do this in the current era. Conference schedules are more packed and coaches are probably less willing.

Gonzaga may have to "settle" for MWC OOC games in January & February --- with the likes of SDSU and Boise State. I'd guess they are more willing to do this than a Pac-12 or Big XII team.
04-07-2021 02:10 PM
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schmolik Online
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Post: #58
RE: So when is Gonzaga going to a real conference?
(04-07-2021 02:10 PM)Nittany_Bearcat Wrote:  
(04-07-2021 01:39 PM)fsquid Wrote:  What Gonzaga needs to do, and they may already have done so, is to get the WCC to start the conference season a week early opening up 2 slots for Feb. non conference matchups. I'm sure ESPN could arrange an opponent.

Yep. UNLV was able to do this fairly successfully in the late 80s and early 90s. Look at their schedules from then, and they would be playing 4 PCAA (Big West) games in December and 4 high-profile OOC games (usually on network TV) in January & February.

I sense it is much harder to do this in the current era. Conference schedules are more packed and coaches are probably less willing.

Gonzaga may have to "settle" for MWC OOC games in January & February --- with the likes of SDSU and Boise State. I'd guess they are more willing to do this than a Pac-12 or Big XII team.

They also have 11 men's basketball members and I'd believe San Diego State, Utah State, and Nevada can benefit playing Gonzaga as much as Gonzaga would playing them. For Gonzaga they can play the top MWC teams without playing the NET ranking killers.
04-07-2021 02:53 PM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #59
RE: So when is Gonzaga going to a real conference?
(04-07-2021 01:44 PM)DawgNBama Wrote:  
(04-06-2021 09:38 AM)jgkojak Wrote:  ... Reverse the Process: WCC brings in better schools
Would BYU consider joining the WCC? Unlikely, but a couple more decent teams would assist Gonzaga as well.

BYU is in the WCC. Any other teams for suggestions???

Wait ... I thought the suggestion was that BYU join again, so they field two basketball teams in the WCC.

Big problem making that fit with NCAA regulations, where they would likely count each team's games against the maximum number of games a single school can play, making it (as the OP admitted) unlikely, but I can see how it might help the strength of the Zag's conference schedule.

I mean, surely nobody would write a post like this and expect it to be taken seriously without first hopping over to Wikipedia to double check the WCC's current makeup.
(This post was last modified: 04-07-2021 07:35 PM by BruceMcF.)
04-07-2021 07:34 PM
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RE: So when is Gonzaga going to a real conference?
(04-06-2021 03:20 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  1. Big East is the perfect fit ... except the geography doesn't work.

If you're Butler or Creighton, maybe. If you're UConn or Georgetown, not even close.
04-07-2021 07:49 PM
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