An other way to look at it is to consider who must play each other annually so as not to piss off a school. I make that as:

UNC-UVa
Duke-Gt
GT-CU
NCSU-WF
BC-Syr
UVa-VT
Miami-FSU
Duke- UNC

Then comes traditional games that can take a little break without the world comming to an end:

Clemson-NC State
Duke-NC State
UNC-GT
VT-WF
ND-Pitt
ND-Miami
FSU-Clemson
WF-UNC
WF-Duke

As you can see, some of these are not played an annual basis as it is now.

Then I see a group of games that involve some history but not on the level of the first two types:

ND-GT
ND-BC
ND-UNC
Clemson-BC
VT-Pitt
UVa-Clemson

In my mind every thing else is just a regular game. Note that Louisville not on these lists. Their relative youth and isolation means they have not developed a key ACC rival as of yet.

Working around the group 1 and group 2 games is the trick.

(08-03-2020 02:02 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  If these ACC leaders have half a brain between them they'll stop worrying so much about who members WANT to play and focus on which match-ups make the most money! If you can fit in the rivalries that casual fans don't care about, fine - but those should not, CANNOT be the priority if the ACC is to try to keep up with the SEC and the Big Ten...

That sounds great. But in actuality how do you do that? Fans want to see two ranked teams or they want to watch the villain get its ass kicked.

Neither UNC, NC State, or Virginia have gotten over the top in the history of their programs. The three have come close from time to time, but never reached the heights of Pitt, GT, or Syracuse, let alone FSU, Miami, or Clemson. That means you can't count on them for ****. If you hold your breath waiting on them you will die. BC, Duke, and WF represent a niche or boutique type of program where they do not have the numerical fan base nor the inclination to cheat like hell to win.

The ACC needs 4 good programs to stay good. Miami, FSU, and VT in the crapper is the current problem. Those programs can be good and have a history of clearing the bar. VT has not been the same since laying that egg in Fed Ex against Boise State a decade ago. When Winston left FSU they went to Hell. Miami never even showed up from the Big East.

I agree with StateFan that for the ACC to be successful they need to have 4 programs delivering strong performances.

Clemson, Florida St, Miami, and VT are the 4 most logical ones but Louisville could easily substitute for one of them.

The rest of the conference membership is so unreliable but as long as they can win OOC they are doing their duty.

Unfortunately, for UNC and N.C. St to be good, they needed to have abandoned WF and Duke in 1953. No one realized it then, but VT and WVU were the schools the ACC Needed at its founding but unfortunately for them they cast votes banning bowl games for the 1951 season that sealed their fate.

(08-03-2020 01:54 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Sorry meant GT and Duke.

Of course UNC prefers UVa over NC State - longest UNC series.

UNC series:

124 UVa
109 NC State
107 WF
104 Duke
70 MD
58 Clemson and SC
54 GT
31 UGa
30 Tennessee

Tried to save that one but just couldnt make it work.

Miami and Clemson are going to have priority on keeping GT and then I gave FSU slot #3 since not having GT has been a big bone of contention. For the 4th slot I assumed ND would want GT so I made ND-GT instead of Duke-GT.

If ND would be ok with someone else then I could rearrange it to preserve that GT-Duke matchup.

GT is one of the schools that virtually everyone in the conference would prioritize

(08-03-2020 02:46 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I agree with StateFan that for the ACC to be successful they need to have 4 programs delivering strong performances.

Clemson, Florida St, Miami, and VT are the 4 most logical ones but Louisville could easily substitute for one of them.

The rest of the conference membership is so unreliable but as long as they can win OOC they are doing their duty.

Unfortunately, for UNC and N.C. St to be good, they needed to have abandoned WF and Duke in 1953. No one realized it then, but VT and WVU were the schools the ACC Needed at its founding but unfortunately for them they cast votes banning bowl games for the 1951 season that sealed their fate.

I don't know how you abandon the best overall program in the conference in 1953. Duke had the best athletic program in the Southern Conference from the time the SEC 13 pulled out until 1962. Duke had a better BASKETBALL program than Carolina during that period. Yes Carolina had two really great years, but year in and year out Duke was better. In football it was not close. Other than four years after WWII, Carolina didn't do ****. This revisionist history exists because the ACC left the 1933-1953 SoCon records with the SoCon instead of taking them like the Pac 5/6 did from the PCC.

The problem today is that Duke competes against NC State, UNC, and WF in recruiting and gets 2-5 kids a year that otherwise would go to State or Carolina. Historically NC State and UNC have always been missing one or two key players at a key positions. For Carolina that position has been QB - Duke and NC State have had the QB's. For State that position has been Defensive End or Tackle depending on Formation. The ACC admonished Duke about 12 years ago for their lack of football investment. But I'm not sure that it's a investment that is good for the league. I would allow Duke to be Vanderbilt from a football standpoint.

Here is my shot at the 4+5 model preserving Duke-GT
I like the non Duke-GT model bettter.

Miami- FSU, ND, UVA, GT
FSU- Miami, ND, GT, Clemson
GT- Clemson, Duke, FSU, Miami
Clemson- GT, NCSU, VT, FSU
WF- Duke, VT, NCSU, UNC
NCSU- UNC, Clemson, WF, Duke
Duke- WF, GT, UNC, NCSU
UNC- NCSU, UVA, Duke, WF
UVA- VT, UNC, Miami, Syracuse
VT- UVA, WF, Clemson, Louisville
Louisville- Pitt, Syracuse, BC, VT
Pitt- Louisville, BC, Syracuse, ND
Syracuse- BC, Louisville, Pitt, UVA
BC- Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville, ND
ND- Miami, FSU, Pitt, BC

so question tis year for ND....

Are they eligible for the ACC spot in the Orange Bowl?

From Brett McMurphy, here is the list of non conference games for the ACC this year

Boston College-Ohio
Duke-Charlotte
Florida State-Samford
Georgia Tech-UCF
Louisville-WKU
Miami-UAB
NC State-Liberty
Notre Dame-Western Michigan
Pitt-Miami (Ohio)
Syracuse-Liberty
Virginia-VMI
Virginia Tech-Liberty
Wake Forest-ODU

TBA: Clemson, UNC

(08-06-2020 08:06 AM)stever20 Wrote:  so question tis year for ND....

Are they eligible for the ACC spot in the Orange Bowl?

If they win the ACC CCG then most definitely. If they don’t win it and the Champ gets selected for the playoff I think it’s a real grey area. The ACC’s stance would probably be that ND could still play against an ACC team in the bowl but not as the conference representative.

I have to think they must have discussed and put some terms in writing to address this.

(08-06-2020 08:29 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(08-06-2020 08:06 AM)stever20 Wrote:  so question tis year for ND....

Are they eligible for the ACC spot in the Orange Bowl?

If they win the ACC CCG then most definitely. If they don’t win it and the Champ gets selected for the playoff I think it’s a real grey area. The ACC’s stance would probably be that ND could still play against an ACC team in the bowl but not as the conference representative.

I have to think they must have discussed and put some terms in writing to address this.

They did.

ND is an ACC team for all purposes in 2020.

It is eligible for the Orange Bowl as the ACC representative.

(08-06-2020 08:29 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  From Brett McMurphy, here is the list of non conference games for the ACC this year

Boston College-Ohio
Duke-Charlotte
Florida State-Samford
Georgia Tech-UCF
Louisville-WKU
Miami-UAB
NC State-Liberty
Notre Dame-Western Michigan
Pitt-Miami (Ohio)
Syracuse-Liberty
Virginia-VMI
Virginia Tech-Liberty
Wake Forest-ODU

TBA: Clemson, UNC

Only watchable opponent is UCF.

No Navy/ND game for the first time in 93 years.

Bummer.

(08-06-2020 08:44 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(08-06-2020 08:29 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(08-06-2020 08:06 AM)stever20 Wrote:  so question tis year for ND....

Are they eligible for the ACC spot in the Orange Bowl?

If they win the ACC CCG then most definitely. If they don’t win it and the Champ gets selected for the playoff I think it’s a real grey area. The ACC’s stance would probably be that ND could still play against an ACC team in the bowl but not as the conference representative.

I have to think they must have discussed and put some terms in writing to address this.

They did.

ND is an ACC team for all purposes in 2020.

It is eligible for the Orange Bowl as the ACC representative.

So that means the Orange Opponent will be either Big Ten or SEC. 5th of 8 chances for Orange to take ND gone as ACC opponent.

(08-06-2020 08:59 AM)TerryD Wrote:  No Navy/ND game for the first time in 93 years.

Bummer.

No USC, no Navy, no B1G team for the first time since the 1920s.

Good Lord.

(08-06-2020 09:09 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(08-06-2020 08:44 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(08-06-2020 08:29 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(08-06-2020 08:06 AM)stever20 Wrote:  so question tis year for ND....

Are they eligible for the ACC spot in the Orange Bowl?

If they win the ACC CCG then most definitely. If they don’t win it and the Champ gets selected for the playoff I think it’s a real grey area. The ACC’s stance would probably be that ND could still play against an ACC team in the bowl but not as the conference representative.

I have to think they must have discussed and put some terms in writing to address this.

They did.

ND is an ACC team for all purposes in 2020.

It is eligible for the Orange Bowl as the ACC representative.

So that means the Orange Opponent will be either Big Ten or SEC. 5th of 8 chances for Orange to take ND gone as ACC opponent.

Probably but .... It's still possible that ND is eligible for *both* Orange Bowl slots, the ACC's and the one they share with the B1G and SEC.

For example, imagine if North Carolina goes 11-1, wins the ACC, but does not make the CFP. Notre Dame goes 11-1 and is higher ranked than any available B1G or SEC team.

UNC would go to the Orange Bowl, and Notre Dame - unless their being eligible for the ACC slots changes this - would be eligible to play them, though as a rematch the OB might decide to pass them over.

I guess in theory ND could play the same ACC team *three* times this year - during the season, in the ACCCG, and then in the Orange Bowl.

(08-06-2020 08:59 AM)TerryD Wrote:  No Navy/ND game for the first time in 93 years.

Bummer.

Seconded.

(08-06-2020 11:42 AM)slhNavy91 Wrote:  

(08-06-2020 08:59 AM)TerryD Wrote:  No Navy/ND game for the first time in 93 years.

Bummer.

Seconded.

On a positive note, ND and Navy just extended their annual series through 2032.

https://notredame.rivals.com/news/notre-...rough-2032

(08-06-2020 08:59 AM)TerryD Wrote:  No Navy/ND game for the first time in 93 years.

Bummer.

Really disappointed with Notre Dame on this one. Even if it ment it was the only game on the schedule Notre Dame should have played Navy. There is something to be said about loyalty, and Notre Dame didnt live up to the ideals with this one. I’m not sure I will watch a single Notre Dame game this year.

(08-06-2020 03:29 PM)pki1998 Wrote:  

(08-06-2020 08:59 AM)TerryD Wrote:  No Navy/ND game for the first time in 93 years.

Bummer.

Really disappointed with Notre Dame on this one. Even if it ment it was the only game on the schedule Notre Dame should have played Navy. There is something to be said about loyalty, and Notre Dame didnt live up to the ideals with this one. I’m not sure I will watch a single Notre Dame game this year.

How do you know it wasn't Navy being unwilling to give up a home game?

ACC scheduling rules for 2020 precluded ND going to Annapolis.

To be able to play that game on that date, Navy would have had to go to South Bend or play ND in an ACC state.

(08-06-2020 03:59 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(08-06-2020 03:29 PM)pki1998 Wrote:  

(08-06-2020 08:59 AM)TerryD Wrote:  No Navy/ND game for the first time in 93 years.

Bummer.

Really disappointed with Notre Dame on this one. Even if it ment it was the only game on the schedule Notre Dame should have played Navy. There is something to be said about loyalty, and Notre Dame didnt live up to the ideals with this one. I’m not sure I will watch a single Notre Dame game this year.

How do you know it wasn't Navy being unwilling to give up a home game?

ACC scheduling rules for 2020 precluded ND going to Annapolis.

To be able to play that game on that date, Navy would have had to go to South Bend or play ND in an ACC state.

Given the long history of the series, and the congeniality of it, I would suspect that the Commandant at Annapolis likely gave the N.D. A.D. a call and told them that the service academies were looking at pulling the plug on Fall sports so that N.D. could fill that slot while they still had time. At the Academies the health of the cadets and midshipmen truly comes first as does the mission of the school.