(08-02-2020 07:12 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(07-31-2020 11:41 PM)3BNole Wrote:  Yeah, the 3+5 model is really the way to go for a 14-team ACC. It would basically solve all the divisional issues.

I suppose now that we have 15 members, the model is 4 (perm) +5 + 5

+1. Also correct.

(08-02-2020 01:14 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(08-02-2020 07:12 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(07-31-2020 11:41 PM)3BNole Wrote:  Yeah, the 3+5 model is really the way to go for a 14-team ACC. It would basically solve all the divisional issues.

I suppose now that we have 15 members, the model is 4 (perm) +5 + 5

+1. Also correct.

Does the math work out to allow an odd number conference to all have the same number of permanent rivals?

(08-02-2020 02:38 PM)solohawks Wrote:  

(08-02-2020 01:14 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(08-02-2020 07:12 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(07-31-2020 11:41 PM)3BNole Wrote:  Yeah, the 3+5 model is really the way to go for a 14-team ACC. It would basically solve all the divisional issues.

I suppose now that we have 15 members, the model is 4 (perm) +5 + 5

+1. Also correct.

Does the math work out to allow an odd number conference to all have the same number of permanent rivals?

Yes, as long as it is an even number. 2, 4, 6 work. 1, 3, 5 don't.

Anyone want to take a stab at what each team’s 4 permanent rivals would be if the ACC, with ND as their 15th, adopted such a model?

(08-02-2020 06:17 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Anyone want to take a stab at what each team’s 4 permanent rivals would be if the ACC, with ND as their 15th, adopted such a model?

I did already stab at it a few posts back:

(08-01-2020 02:05 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(08-01-2020 01:59 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  UNC for one, they even scheduled two OOC games with Wake when the ACC schedule dropped them off their play list. UNC is more important for NC State than the other way around. Duke tops UNC then Wake and Virginia.

But this is all inside the beltway stuff. Divisionless football means schools will pick their protected games. They will probably do something similar to what other conferences have done, having each list their preferred opponents in order. When two schools match as top opponents they are locked off. This will determine who each winds up as a rival with. That is the sensible way to do it. If a couple schools are left over.

Note the Math does not work for 3 rivals with 15 schools. You have to either go down to 2 or up to 4. At 3 you get 45 (3 opponents for 15 schools), which means 22 games and one school left out. Logically if you did that it would be ND, who would probably have Pitt and BC as the only rivals.

This is true. I think they'd go for 4 protected opponents, perhaps like so:

Code:

BOSTON COLLEGE  Syracuse        BYE/OTHER       Pittsburgh      Notre Dame      Miami-FL        
CLEMSON         Virginia Tech   NC State        Florida State   Georgia Tech    (South Carolina)
DUKE            BYE/OTHER       Georgia Tech    NC State        North Carolina  Wake Forest    
FLORIDA STATE   Georgia Tech    Louisville      Clemson         Miami-FL        (Florida)      
GEORGIA TECH    Florida State   Duke            Notre Dame      Clemson         (Georgia)      
LOUISVILLE      Pittsburgh      Florida State   Syracuse        Virginia Tech   (Kentucky)      
MIAMI-FL        Notre Dame      Virginia Tech   BYE/OTHER       Florida State   Boston College  
NC STATE        BYE/OTHER       Clemson         Duke            Wake Forest     North Carolina  
NORTH CAROLINA  BYE/OTHER       Wake Forest     Virginia        Duke            NC State        
NOTRE DAME      Miami-FL        Pittsburgh      Georgia Tech    Boston College  (Stanford/USC)  
PITTSBURGH      Louisville      Notre Dame      Boston College  BYE/OTHER       Syracuse        
SYRACUSE        Boston College  Virginia        Louisville      BYE/OTHER       Pittsburgh      
VIRGINIA        Wake Forest     Syracuse        North Carolina  BYE/OTHER       Virginia Tech  
VIRGINIA TECH   Clemson         Miami-FL        BYE/OTHER       Louisville      Virginia        
WAKE FOREST     Virginia        North Carolina  BYE/OTHER       NC State        Duke

I'm thinking now that Clemson and Notre Dame have it too easy, so I'd pit them against each other and break up Clemson/NC State and GT/ND as protected pairings. I'll also break up UVA's pairings with Syracuse and WF and have the latter two play each other. UVA will instead be matched up against GT and NC State. Revised setup:

(08-02-2020 06:17 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Anyone want to take a stab at what each team’s 4 permanent rivals would be if the ACC, with ND as their 15th, adopted such a model?

UNC - NCSU/Duke/UVa/WF (all of these games played over 105 times)
NCSU - Duke/UNC/WF/UVa (returns Duke and UVa giving access to State of Va)
UVa - VT/UNC/NCSU/Pitt (keeps game with Pitt)
VT - BC/UVa/WF/ Miami (restores things with WF - their closest)
Duke - UNC/GT/WF/NCSU (keeps GT, adds NC State)
WF - NCSU/VT/Duke/UNC (adds UNC and VT, ratchets back Clemson)
GT - Duke/FSU/CU/Louisville (significant trades here to add FSU and Louisville)
Clemson - BC/FSU/GT/Louisville (reduces annual games in NC and Va)
FSU - Miami/GT/Clemson/Syracuse (What they want, bumping BC)
Miami - ND/FSU/VT/Louis (Convicts v. Catholics)
Louisville - Syracuse/Clemson/GT/Miami (Southern orientation for Louis)
BC - ND/Syracuse/Clemson/VT (ND plus two good Southern games)
Syracuse - Louisville/BC/Pitt/FSU (High profile FSU game, then traditional BE foes)
Pitt - ND/Syracuse/Louisville/UVa (Traditional and regional)
ND - Pitt/Miami/BC/ (These three are likely most palatable to ND on an annual basis)

In this model UNC/GT and NC State/Clemson are broken, however with a 4-5 you are going to see that old rival every other year. This allows you to concentrate regional rivalries, and in some cases allow for a longer distance relationship to continue like BC/Clemson and Syracuse/FSU. Their isolation in the far north of the ACC creates the need for them to have a southern partner so to speak.

I may have messed up but come up one short for ND. Theoretically they could play one less league game and it should not matter.

So for Clemson their bi-annual schedule is:

BC/FSU/GT/Louisville/Miami/UNC/Duke/UVa/Pitt
BC/FSU/GT/Louisville/ND/NCSU/WF/VT/Syracuse

For Syracuse

BC/FSU/Louisville/Pitt/NCSU/UVa/Wake/Clemson/Miami
BC/FSU/Louisville/Pitt/UNC/VT/Duke/GT/ND

For ND

Pitt/BC/Miami/NCSU/WF/VT/Clemson/Louisville/Syracuse
Pitt/BC/Miami/UNC/Duke/UVa/GT/FSU/NAVY*

The concession to ND is that they have Navy count as a conference game every two years, giving ND 7 openings over 2 years to play USC/Navy/Stanford/Purdue/SEC, etc.

(08-02-2020 08:56 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(08-02-2020 06:17 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Anyone want to take a stab at what each team’s 4 permanent rivals would be if the ACC, with ND as their 15th, adopted such a model?

UNC - NCSU/Duke/UVa/WF (all of these games played over 105 times)
NCSU - Duke/UNC/WF/UVa (returns Duke and UVa giving access to State of Va)
UVa - VT/UNC/NCSU/Pitt (keeps game with Pitt)
VT - BC/UVa/WF/ Miami (restores things with WF - their closest)
Duke - UNC/GT/WF/NCSU (keeps GT, adds NC State)
WF - NCSU/VT/Duke/UNC (adds UNC and VT, ratchets back Clemson)
GT - Duke/FSU/CU/Louisville (significant trades here to add FSU and Louisville)
Clemson - BC/FSU/GT/Louisville (reduces annual games in NC and Va)
FSU - Miami/GT/Clemson/Syracuse (What they want, bumping BC)
Miami - ND/FSU/VT/Louis (Convicts v. Catholics)
Louisville - Syracuse/Clemson/GT/Miami (Southern orientation for Louis)
BC - ND/Syracuse/Clemson/VT (ND plus two good Southern games)
Syracuse - Louisville/BC/Pitt/FSU (High profile FSU game, then traditional BE foes)
Pitt - ND/Syracuse/Louisville/UVa (Traditional and regional)
ND - Pitt/Miami/BC/ (These three are likely most palatable to ND on an annual basis)

In this model UNC/GT and NC State/Clemson are broken, however with a 4-5 you are going to see that old rival every other year. This allows you to concentrate regional rivalries, and in some cases allow for a longer distance relationship to continue like BC/Clemson and Syracuse/FSU. Their isolation in the far north of the ACC creates the need for them to have a southern partner so to speak.

I may have messed up but come up one short for ND. Theoretically they could play one less league game and it should not matter.

I didn't analyze it in depth, but I can see you have Louisville down as an opponent 5 times. Pitt is not listed as an opponent for Louisville though.

Here is my shot at the 4+5 model

Miami- FSU, ND, UVA, GT
FSU- Miami, Clemson, GT, Syracuse
GT- Clemson, ND, FSU, Miami
Clemson- GT, FSU, VT, Louisville
WF- Duke, VT, NCSU, UNC
NCSU- UNC, Duke, WF, VT
Duke- WF, NCSU, UNC, UVA
UNC- NCSU, UVA, Duke, WF
UVA- VT, UNC, Miami, Duke
VT- UVA, WF, Clemson, NCSU
Louisville- Pitt, Syracuse, BC, Clemson
Pitt- Louisville, BC, Syracuse, ND
Syracuse- BC, Louisville, Pitt, FSU
BC- Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville, ND
ND- Miami, GT, Pitt, BC

For a divisionless ACC with 15 FB members, a 4 (protected) + 5 (rotating) schedule would certainly be best, but I doubt you'll get enough teams on board with a 9-game conference schedule to make it stick. A 4+4 schedule could still work though, with all non-protected opponents playing home and away within 5 years.

1H 2A 3H 4A
5H 6A 7H 8A
9H 10A 1A 2H
3A 4H 5A 6H
7A 8H 9A 10H

(08-02-2020 10:38 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  For a divisionless ACC with 15 FB members, a 4 (protected) + 5 (rotating) schedule would certainly be best, but I doubt you'll get enough teams on board with a 9-game conference schedule to make it stick. A 4+4 schedule could still work though, with all non-protected opponents playing home and away within 5 years.

1H 2A 3H 4A
5H 6A 7H 8A
9H 10A 1A 2H
3A 4H 5A 6H
7A 8H 9A 10H

I think 2+6 is the way to go with an 8 game schedule in a 15-team conference.

But if members insist on 4 permanent rivals then a 3-tier approach might work best. 4+2+2

4 permant rivals you play every year (4 games a year)
4 rivals you play every other year (2 games a year)
6 rivals you play every 3 years (2 games each year)

(08-03-2020 04:11 AM)goofus Wrote:  

(08-02-2020 10:38 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  For a divisionless ACC with 15 FB members, a 4 (protected) + 5 (rotating) schedule would certainly be best, but I doubt you'll get enough teams on board with a 9-game conference schedule to make it stick. A 4+4 schedule could still work though, with all non-protected opponents playing home and away within 5 years.

1H 2A 3H 4A
5H 6A 7H 8A
9H 10A 1A 2H
3A 4H 5A 6H
7A 8H 9A 10H

I think 2+6 is the way to go with an 8 game schedule in a 15-team conference.

But if members insist on 4 permanent rivals then a 3-tier approach might work best. 4+2+2

4 permant rivals you play every year (4 games a year)
4 rivals you play every other year (2 games a year)
6 rivals you play every 3 years (2 games each year)

Only 2 protected FB opponents is probably too few, but if we go by the current ACC BB setup, each team has 2 designated opponents that they play twice every year:


That's a good framework for determining a divisionless FB setup with only 2 protected opponents, though it looks like some changes need to be made. For one, I would guess that Notre Dame would prefer Miami and Pitt for FB over BC and GT. In that case, I'd break up BC/ND, GT/ND, Louisville/Pitt, Louisville/UVA, and Miami/VT in favor of BC/Louisville, GT/UVA, Louisville/VT, Miami/ND, and ND/Pitt.


The most historically important rivalry that's not protected here is UNC/UVA, but with only 2 options, UNC would still prefer Duke and NC State over UVA.

So with 14 you can do 3-5/5: 3 permanent rivals and the other 10 every other year.

Bring in ND and you have to go to 2-6/6: 2 permanent rivals and the other 12 every other year. To keep that 3rd rivalry you’re going to have times where you don’t see somebody in 3 seasons.

I imagine there’s going to be some serious opposition to adding a 9th conference game, especially in any theoretical scenario where ND is a full member.

(08-03-2020 01:21 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  So with 14 you can do 3-5/5: 3 permanent rivals and the other 10 every other year.

Bring in ND and you have to go to 2-6/6: 2 permanent rivals and the other 12 every other year. To keep that 3rd rivalry you’re going to have times where you don’t see somebody in 3 seasons.

I imagine there’s going to be some serious opposition to adding a 9th conference game, especially in any theoretical scenario where ND is a full member.

As has been shown, the bold is not true. A setup with 4 protected and 4 rotating opponents each year would work fine, for instance. Yes, there will be some pairs that don't play for 3 years at most, but right now there are many pairs that don't play for 5 or 7 years.

(08-02-2020 10:31 PM)solohawks Wrote:  Here is my shot at the 4+5 model

Miami- FSU, ND, UVA, GT
FSU- Miami, Clemson, GT, Syracuse
GT- Clemson, ND, FSU, Miami
Clemson- GT, FSU, VT, Louisville
WF- Duke, VT, NCSU, UNC
NCSU- UNC, Duke, WF, VT
Duke- WF, NCSU, UNC, UVA
UNC- NCSU, UVA, Duke, WF
UVA- VT, UNC, Miami, Duke
VT- UVA, WF, Clemson, NCSU
Louisville- Pitt, Syracuse, BC, Clemson
Pitt- Louisville, BC, Syracuse, ND
Syracuse- BC, Louisville, Pitt, FSU
BC- Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville, ND
ND- Miami, GT, Pitt, BC

Solo - UNC and Duke have played every year since before WWII. Neither will let that go.

(08-03-2020 12:36 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(08-03-2020 04:11 AM)goofus Wrote:  

(08-02-2020 10:38 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  For a divisionless ACC with 15 FB members, a 4 (protected) + 5 (rotating) schedule would certainly be best, but I doubt you'll get enough teams on board with a 9-game conference schedule to make it stick. A 4+4 schedule could still work though, with all non-protected opponents playing home and away within 5 years.

1H 2A 3H 4A
5H 6A 7H 8A
9H 10A 1A 2H
3A 4H 5A 6H
7A 8H 9A 10H

I think 2+6 is the way to go with an 8 game schedule in a 15-team conference.

But if members insist on 4 permanent rivals then a 3-tier approach might work best. 4+2+2

4 permant rivals you play every year (4 games a year)
4 rivals you play every other year (2 games a year)
6 rivals you play every 3 years (2 games each year)

Only 2 protected FB opponents is probably too few, but if we go by the current ACC BB setup, each team has 2 designated opponents that they play twice every year:

Code:

BOSTON COLLEGE  Notre Dame      Syracuse        
CLEMSON         Florida State   Georgia Tech    
DUKE            North Carolina  Wake Forest    
FLORIDA STATE   Miami-FL        Clemson        
GEORGIA TECH    Clemson         Notre Dame      
LOUISVILLE      Pittsburgh      Virginia        
MIAMI-FL        Virginia Tech   Florida State  
NC STATE        Wake Forest     North Carolina  
NORTH CAROLINA  NC State        Duke            
NOTRE DAME      Georgia Tech    Boston College  
PITTSBURGH      Syracuse        Louisville      
SYRACUSE        Boston College  Pittsburgh      
VIRGINIA        Louisville      Virginia Tech  
VIRGINIA TECH   Virginia        Miami-FL        
WAKE FOREST     Duke            NC State

That's a good framework for determining a divisionless FB setup with only 2 protected opponents, though it looks like some changes need to be made. For one, I would guess that Notre Dame would prefer Miami and Pitt for FB over BC and GT. In that case, I'd break up BC/ND, GT/ND, Louisville/Pitt, Louisville/UVA, and Miami/VT in favor of BC/Louisville, GT/UVA, Louisville/VT, Miami/ND, and ND/Pitt.

Code:

BOSTON COLLEGE  Louisville      Syracuse        
CLEMSON         Florida State   Georgia Tech    
DUKE            North Carolina  Wake Forest    
FLORIDA STATE   Miami-FL        Clemson        
GEORGIA TECH    Clemson         Virginia        
LOUISVILLE      Virginia Tech   Boston College  
MIAMI-FL        Notre Dame      Florida State  
NC STATE        Wake Forest     North Carolina  
NORTH CAROLINA  NC State        Duke            
NOTRE DAME      Pittsburgh      Miami-FL        
PITTSBURGH      Syracuse        Notre Dame      
SYRACUSE        Boston College  Pittsburgh      
VIRGINIA        Georgia Tech    Virginia Tech  
VIRGINIA TECH   Virginia        Louisville      
WAKE FOREST     Duke            NC State

The most historically important rivalry that's not protected here is UNC/UVA, but with only 2 options, UNC would still prefer Duke and NC State over UVA.

No they would not.

(08-03-2020 01:38 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(08-02-2020 10:31 PM)solohawks Wrote:  Here is my shot at the 4+5 model

Miami- FSU, ND, UVA, GT
FSU- Miami, Clemson, GT, Syracuse
GT- Clemson, ND, FSU, Miami
Clemson- GT, FSU, VT, Louisville
WF- Duke, VT, NCSU, UNC
NCSU- UNC, Duke, WF, VT
Duke- WF, NCSU, UNC, UVA
UNC- NCSU, UVA, Duke, WF
UVA- VT, UNC, Miami, Duke
VT- UVA, WF, Clemson, NCSU
Louisville- Pitt, Syracuse, BC, Clemson
Pitt- Louisville, BC, Syracuse, ND
Syracuse- BC, Louisville, Pitt, FSU
BC- Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville, ND
ND- Miami, GT, Pitt, BC

Solo - UNC and Duke have played every year since before WWII. Neither will let that go.

He has UNC and Duke paired though. Did you mean GT and Duke?

(08-03-2020 01:38 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(08-03-2020 12:36 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  The most historically important rivalry that's not protected here is UNC/UVA, but with only 2 options, UNC would still prefer Duke and NC State over UVA.

No they would not.

So UVA would supplant NC State?

Sorry meant GT and Duke.

Of course UNC prefers UVa over NC State - longest UNC series.

UNC series:

124 UVa
109 NC State
107 WF
104 Duke
70 MD
58 Clemson and SC
54 GT
31 UGa
30 Tennessee

If these ACC leaders have half a brain between them they'll stop worrying so much about who members WANT to play and focus on which match-ups make the most money! If you can fit in the rivalries that casual fans don't care about, fine - but those should not, CANNOT be the priority if the ACC is to try to keep up with the SEC and the Big Ten...