(04-05-2019 05:25 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(04-04-2019 10:51 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(04-04-2019 10:14 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(04-04-2019 09:52 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  There is no basis to view Genesis as allegorical other that the readers desire for it to be allegorical. Jesus certainly did not teach it as allegory in the NT, nor did the disciples. They taught it was absolutely literal.
If its allegorical, then you really aren't going to be judged by God on judgment day, and the judgment is not eternal or final as it says it is. Thus the reader is free to make up their own truth from their own imagination and feelings, and live their life as they see best, and not seek the will of their Father in Heaven.
For those who actually have read the first 11 chapter of genesis, if its not literal and just an allegory then Jesus cannot save you, and the entire basis of Christianity and the gospel is just a fantasy with zero basis in reality.

So if the world wasn't created in 7 days of 24 hours each, 168 hours total, then that means Jesus cannot save you? I fail to see the logic. I simply cannot connect how old the world is to any salvation issue. And I don't believe Jesus ever addressed that specific issue, although I would appreciate it if you could show me where He did.
The Bible can certainly be literal in every way connected to salvation. That does not mean that it has to be literal about everything.

I did not say salvation was dependent upon a literal 7 day creation, did I? What did I actually say in my post?

You said (restating the bolded part above), "For those who actually have read the first 11 chapter of genesis, if its not literal and just an allegory then Jesus cannot save you, and the entire basis of Christianity and the gospel is just a fantasy with zero basis in reality." You've allowed two, and so far as I can tell only two, possibilities--either the first 11 chapters of Genesis are literal, or Jesus cannot save you. I don't see where you leave room for anything else. If the first 11 chapters of Genesis is literal, then the world was created in 7 days. If you don't believe it is literal, you said, then Jesus cannot save you. It either literal, which means a 7 day creation, or Jesus cannot save you. That's what your words say. If you mean something else, please clarify.

Well I have actually read and studied the first 11 chapters of genesis? Have you because it really sounds like you have not.

Yes I did say Christianity have no basis of foundation without the first 11 chapters, notice I did NOT say you have to believe the first 7 days are literal to be saved. Two VERY different statements.

Without the first 11 chapters of genesis, there is no foundation or understanding of what sin is, there is no basis for man to be sinners or fallen at all. there is no basis for salvation, and there is no basis for a Savoir. The entire foundation and beginning of Jesus begin in the first few chapters of Genesis falls from perfection, God passes judgement on man, woman and Satan, and God lays out the path of salvation through the seed of the woman. How is Jesus going to save you if Sin is not real, man never falls, and God never decrees a Savior to Redeem all of mankind?

Jesus came into the world to solve the problem of sin that started in real, time-space history in the real Garden of Eden with two real people called Adam and Eve and a real serpent that spoke to Eve. The sin of Adam and Eve resulted in spiritual and physical death for them, but also a divine curse on all of the once “"very good"” creation (see Genesis 1:31 and 3:14–19). Jesus is coming again to liberate all Christians and the creation itself from that bondage to corruption (Romans 8:18–25). Then there will be a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells and where sin, death, and natural evils will be no more. A non-literal reading of Genesis destroys this message of the Bible and ultimately is an assault on the character of God.

(04-05-2019 05:25 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  My basis for faith in Christ is the resurrection. It is a totally unnatural event that is vouched for by an incredible string of witnesses knowingly willing to die for it. You may or may not believe that it is true. But it is really very difficult to understand well documented events of the first century AD without that being an event that actually happened.

What evidence is there to believe this over any other religion or religious story in the world? You say you believe it based on the Resurrection, but what basis do you have to believe the Resurrection happened, or that you are somehow saved by Christ and the Resurrection?

Why should a person believe this? What reason does the Bible give us to believe this over and over again?

The Biblical Gospel is based on sound doctrine, and is based and centered on the importance of sound doctrine in the Word of God?

How can you have sound doctrine on salvation if the entire basis of Salvation is based on allegory and not literal reality? How can you have literal salvation if the entire basis and foundation of salvation is not literal and just an allegory?

(04-05-2019 06:51 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  Well I have actually read and studied the first 11 chapters of genesis? Have you because it really sounds like you have not.
Yes I did say Christianity have no basis of foundation without the first 11 chapters, notice I did NOT say you have to believe the first 7 days are literal to be saved. Two VERY different statements.

You said you had to believe the first 11 chapters were literally true. If so, then that means 7 days. If what you are saying is that the first 11 chapters are literally true except the 7 days part, then that's different. What about making Eve from Adam's rib? Is that literal? What about the talking serpent? Is that literal?

If literal does not mean 7 days, you have to draw some line between what's literal and what isn't. Where do you draw that line?

(04-05-2019 06:55 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(04-05-2019 05:25 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  My basis for faith in Christ is the resurrection. It is a totally unnatural event that is vouched for by an incredible string of witnesses knowingly willing to die for it. You may or may not believe that it is true. But it is really very difficult to understand well documented events of the first century AD without that being an event that actually happened.

What evidence is there to believe this over any other religion or religious story in the world? You say you believe it based on the Resurrection, but what basis do you have to believe the Resurrection happened, or that you are somehow saved by Christ and the Resurrection?
Why should a person believe this? What reason does the Bible give us to believe this over and over again?

What basis do I have to believe it? How about we start with the idea that multiple witnesses chose to be put to death rather than denounce it? How willing would you be willing to die rather than to say you didn't see something that you saw? That pretty much clinches it for me. But there are other things too. No need to go into them here.

The reason not to believe it is that it is unnatural. But if Jesus is truly God, and God is truly omnipotent, then then He can suspend natural laws.

(04-05-2019 07:18 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(04-05-2019 06:55 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(04-05-2019 05:25 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  My basis for faith in Christ is the resurrection. It is a totally unnatural event that is vouched for by an incredible string of witnesses knowingly willing to die for it. You may or may not believe that it is true. But it is really very difficult to understand well documented events of the first century AD without that being an event that actually happened.

What evidence is there to believe this over any other religion or religious story in the world? You say you believe it based on the Resurrection, but what basis do you have to believe the Resurrection happened, or that you are somehow saved by Christ and the Resurrection?
Why should a person believe this? What reason does the Bible give us to believe this over and over again?

What basis do I have to believe it? How about we start with the idea that multiple witnesses chose to be put to death rather than denounce it? How willing would you be willing to die rather than to say you didn't see something that you saw? That pretty much clinches it for me. But there are other things too. No need to go into them here.

The reason not to believe it is that it is unnatural. But if Jesus is truly God, and God is truly omnipotent, then then He can suspend natural laws.

That was 2000 years ago. How do you know the story did not change? Suppose they did renounce, suppose they were simply insane. What basis is there to believe Jesus was the Son of God and that we can be saved through Him. Is salvation literal or allegorical?

I'm asking of the answer and reason the Bible gives throughout the entire NT. The Bible does not tell us we should believe because some men died and did not change their story. The Bible gives us very direct and specific reasons as to why we should believe Jesus is the Son of God and can save us.

(04-05-2019 07:14 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(04-05-2019 06:51 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  Well I have actually read and studied the first 11 chapters of genesis? Have you because it really sounds like you have not.
Yes I did say Christianity have no basis of foundation without the first 11 chapters, notice I did NOT say you have to believe the first 7 days are literal to be saved. Two VERY different statements.

You said you had to believe the first 11 chapters were literally true. If so, then that means 7 days. If what you are saying is that the first 11 chapters are literally true except the 7 days part, then that's different. What about making Eve from Adam's rib? Is that literal? What about the talking serpent? Is that literal?

If literal does not mean 7 days, you have to draw some line between what's literal and what isn't. Where do you draw that line?

I draw the line where when there is zero evidence whatsoever in the text that its not literal. When small allegories are given in the bible they have very clear textual evidence and markers that they are allegory. When there is zero evidence in the text whatsoever that its allegory, why would you then try to make it an allegory?

If you can just blindly choose what parts are real and what is not real based on simple feelings with no textual evidence, then the entire book is totally subject each persons own imagination.

There is no way to know what is real and what is allegory. Even the Resurrection and salvation can be totally allegorical if its based solely in feelings and not textual proof.

Eric how can you verify with certainty that the translation you are reading is not wrong? Do you speak Aramaic or Hebrew?

Also, what about Neanderthals, Denisovans, and any other number of protohuman or other such human like finds? Did God mess up? Those are mentioned in the Bible?

(04-05-2019 04:13 PM)king king Wrote:  Also, what about Neanderthals, Denisovans, and any other number of protohuman or other such human like finds? Did God mess up? Those are mentioned in the Bible?

Well there is a very simple and obvious answer for that, but I am curious what you think since you say you are a Christian in other threads.

Did God "mess up"? Is the Bible not the Word of God?

(04-05-2019 03:59 PM)king king Wrote:  Eric how can you verify with certainty that the translation you are reading is not wrong? Do you speak Aramaic or Hebrew?

1- Actually its incredibly simple to google and pull up ancient copies of the Bible in Hebrew or Greek and examine them word for word. They are called interlinear Bibles and we now have amazing tools for doing just that. So yes, I have studied the entire Bible quite a bit and examined those translations even firsthand.

2- There is hardly an ordained Minister in the country who has not deeply studied the NT in its original Greek, and many of those also studied the OT in Hebrew. Those are typically major part of getting a degree and becoming an ordained Ministers in many denominations.

In other words, we know the KJV is an amazing accurate direct translation of the ancient texts we have from 2000 years ago. Even you could pull it up and examine it closely word for word on your phone. Some never modern Bible are actually "interpretations" as opposed to direct word for word translations like the KJV and a few others.

I know the KJV cannot be word for word as English was not around 2k years ago.

No one alive today speaks Aramaic or ancient Greek. Modern Greek is syntactically very very different than the Greek of Homer and Plato.

So, how does one absolutely verify that they understand the meanings of the words they are translating.

I asked you for your take on other hominid species. Please tell me what the Bible says about those. I asked if God messed up. I did not say God messed up.

(04-03-2019 02:48 PM)DustMyBroom Wrote:  

(03-31-2019 08:26 PM)king king Wrote:  

(03-31-2019 06:32 PM)bullet Wrote:  https://weather.com/news/news/2019-03-31...-dinosaurs

Interesting find.

"...“We’ve understood that bad things happened right after the impact, but nobody’s found this kind of smoking-gun evidence,” study co-author David Burnham of the University of Kansas Biodiversity Institute said in a statement. “People have said, ‘We get that this blast killed the dinosaurs, but why don’t we have dead bodies everywhere?’ Well, now we have bodies. They’re not dinosaurs, but I think those will eventually be found, too.”

Within 45 minutes to an hour, thousands of tiny glass beads formed by the impact began to rain down on the site. Some of these beads, called tektites, were inhaled by the fish in the inland sea, according to a University of California Berkley news release about the study. The tektites would later be found stuck in the fishes' gills. Other tektites, zooming out of the atmosphere at 100 to 200 mph, landed in the mud left by waves from the inland sea. Others are thought to have caused wildfires across the entire continent...."

Thanks for posting. This is fascinating.

Took the fam to Cancun over New Year's and we swam in a cenote. I only found out later they were all created by the asteroid impact that killed the dinosaurs. They go in a ring around the Chixulub crater. Pretty humbling. I love this stuff.

Many of the cenote were used for sacrificial purposes by the maya. Some contain the remains of thousands of individuals.

This is true.

I could see the bottom of the one we were in but did not see any bones. The Mayan shaman did bless us and ask the ancestors to know we were there respectfully so there might have BEEN some at some point. The water was 59° and refreshing as can be. I kind of want go do the polar Bear plunge now.

Eric I'd also add the even if we were to translate word for word any language, there will be a lot of nuance lost in that translation. I know this because I've translated English to Russian on the fly and in written form where I get to think about the way to say something. I'm surprised a lot by how often I misinterpret the exact meaning someone else intends but that a native gets automatically. Even reading a book in another language, I'm often surprised later when I realize exactly what it meant and I had been wrong.

(04-05-2019 06:24 PM)king king Wrote:  Eric I'd also add the even if we were to translate word for word any language, there will be a lot of nuance lost in that translation. I know this because I've translated English to Russian on the fly and in written form where I get to think about the way to say something. I'm surprised a lot by how often I misinterpret the exact meaning someone else intends but that a native gets automatically. Even reading a book in another language, I'm often surprised later when I realize exactly what it meant and I had been wrong.

Instead of just making blind, biased assumptions in the dark you should try studying and examining these things for yourself.

When you study the Bible you see how its written specifically to get around language barriers by repeating key doctrines over and over and over again in book after book, chapter after chapter. Just try studying theses things for yourself and see them for yourself instead of just blindly assuming things.

But the reality is when you don't want to humble yourself and value the Bible as Gods Word, you aren't going to seriously study it and you are going to come up with all sorts of imaginary reasons and explanations as to why it can't be fully trusted at all and is not worth serious study and attention.

As I said in the other post, truth is relative today, and people are more interested in believing what makes them feel better, as opposed to really seeking out the truth outside of your own biases and assumptions. The Bible is one of the most shining examples of this. Most people never bother studying it or examining the evidence surrounding it at all. They just convince themselves of whatever they need to hear to feel justified in their views.

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/


Here is a link to word for word translations in both Greek and Hebrew from the 2000 year old texts.

Its pretty simple stuff with amazing tools that even a layman with zero background in Greek or Hebrew can easily study and cross check each verse word by word. Even seeing how and where each word is used in context throughout the Bible in Greek or Hebrew. Full breakdown of each word, its root and meanings in each language.

Its far simpler and far easier to read or study than you are aware, and totally debunks your assumptions that we cant properly translation or understand them.

You seem to think God had no idea His Word would be one day translated into other langues, but in fact the entire book was clearly written with the understanding that it would be translated into other langues and was purposely designed in such a manner.

(04-05-2019 07:59 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  https://biblehub.com/interlinear/


Here is a link to word for word translations in both Greek and Hebrew from the 2000 year old texts.

Its pretty simple stuff with amazing tools that even a layman with zero background in Greek or Hebrew can easily study and cross check each verse word by word. Even seeing how and where each word is used in context throughout the Bible in Greek or Hebrew. Full breakdown of each word, its root and meanings in each language.

Its far simpler and far easier to read or study than you are aware, and totally debunks your assumptions that we cant properly translation or understand them.

You seem to think God had no idea His Word would be one day translated into other langues, but in fact the entire book was clearly written with the understanding that it would be translated into other langues and was purposely designed in such a manner.

No, I'm making no assumption based on anything. Just highlighting that you blindly believe that the words are what someone else tells you they are without actually knowing. You might believe that the process has been examined and tested and proven to be correct.

That sounds a lot like the scientific method. That's my point.

Since no one alive today has ever spoken or heard the languages that the Bible was written in, it takes faith in the method used to prove that the words are what someone else says they are.

Or do you disagree with that logic too?

I have given no explanation of anything I believe or disbelieve so don't put words in my mouth or impart meaning.

If you believe that meaning isn't lost when languages are translated, I'll stand on my 27 years of being bilingual as proof that they are. All of them.

Still waiting on your explanation for ALL the prehuman humanoids.

(04-05-2019 09:38 PM)king king Wrote:  I have given no explanation of anything I believe or disbelieve so don't put words in my mouth or impart meaning.

If you believe that meaning isn't lost when languages are translated, I'll stand on my 27 years of being bilingual as proof that they are. All of them.

Still waiting on your explanation for ALL the prehuman humanoids.

Well you are welcome to any hypothetical theory you want, but the facts totally contradict what you are saying and anyone can examine those translations for themselves, Word by word, line by line. Hundreds of thousand of scholars have for many centuries now. The Bible stands the test of time and accuracy. Its literally the most studied, scrutinized and verified book in human history. You can pretend otherwise based on your own imagination, but the facts and evidence are all against you. Your entire argument is based on blind assumptions of fantasy scenarios where you imagine a word can be mistranslated and since that is not 100% impossible then that means the Bible is corrupted, highly questionable and can't be proven. Its not like you have actually studied then text and came to this conclusion, its just a fantasy scenario you are trying to disguise as a factual argument. Like I have said, if you have seriously studied the Bible and the NT, you would know its specifically written to get around language barriers by repeating the same key doctrines over and over and over again from book to book to book. When something is explained using differing words 20 different times in 20 different books and chapters, it tends to eliminate petty arguments about translation over a specific word.

Its interesting how you demand I explain a dozen different things in every single thread and you never explain or answer anything. You work very hard to dodge all direct questions and keep your own views and beliefs secret for argument sake.

Its time YOU explain/answer something. Are you a Christian or not because your comments here strongly suggest you are are not and do not believe in the bible. If God created time, space and the entire universe, how can He NOT have the ability to keep His promises about His Word being preserved for all generations?

That sounds like a very sloppy and limited God you believe in. If you believe in one at all.

(04-05-2019 11:33 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(04-05-2019 09:38 PM)king king Wrote:  I have given no explanation of anything I believe or disbelieve so don't put words in my mouth or impart meaning.

If you believe that meaning isn't lost when languages are translated, I'll stand on my 27 years of being bilingual as proof that they are. All of them.

Still waiting on your explanation for ALL the prehuman humanoids.

Well you are welcome to any hypothetical theory you want, but the facts totally contradict what you are saying and anyone can examine those translations for themselves, Word by word, line by line. Hundreds of thousand of scholars have for many centuries now. The Bible stands the test of time and accuracy. Its literally the most studied, scrutinized and verified book in human history. You can pretend otherwise based on your own imagination, but the facts and evidence are all against you. Your entire argument is based on blind assumptions of fantasy scenarios where you imagine a word can be mistranslated and since that is not 100% impossible then that means the Bible is corrupted, highly questionable and can't be proven. Its not like you have actually studied then text and came to this conclusion, its just a fantasy scenario you are trying to disguise as a factual argument. Like I have said, if you have seriously studied the Bible and the NT, you would know its specifically written to get around language barriers by repeating the same key doctrines over and over and over again from book to book to book. When something is explained using differing words 20 different times in 20 different books and chapters, it tends to eliminate petty arguments about translation over a specific word.

Its interesting how you demand I explain a dozen different things in every single thread and you never explain or answer anything. You work very hard to dodge all direct questions and keep your own views and beliefs secret for argument sake.

Its time YOU explain/answer something. Are you a Christian or not because your comments here strongly suggest you are are not and do not believe in the bible. If God created time, space and the entire universe, how can He NOT have the ability to keep His promises about His Word being preserved for all generations?

That sounds like a very sloppy and limited God you believe in. If you believe in one at all.

Well you've made the claim that it was directly translated into the KJV version - so from the original Hebrew to Ancient Greek to Latin to English, correct? And you think there was nothing lost in translation? You accept at face value these things for which you have zero way of knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt are true when it comes to the words of the Bible as they appear to you in the English language but disagree with science when it tells you there is no way dinos and humans walked the earth together.

In your example where it talks about the "behemoth" in Job, if you go look the Hebrew word can also mean simply "beast". There is all kind of inference that has to go into that passage to land on dinosaur. And that's the problem, imo, is that the Bible as we've received it is open to interpretation along the way simply from having come through at least three other translations.

I'm a Christian. I believe PURELY on faith alone that Jesus lived, died, and rose again to provide a pathway for me to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. But there is zero tangible proof he even lived. There is zero tangible proof there is a God. There is zero proof that anything other than man wrote the Bible. Because of that I continuously question everything.

Why is it that there are Neanderthals? Or Denisovans? Or homo species predating man? For that matter, why is there a boundary of ash at a precise depth that covers the entire planet and that can mathematically be matched to the time when the Chixulub crater was made by the asteroid that wiped out the dinos? Why, if man was created on the sixth day and the heavens were created on the first day, can light from 13.5 billion years ago be detected? Wouldn't man also need to be 13.5 billion minus six days old for that to be true?

I'm a natural skeptic. I also allow for there being things I cannot and do not know. I've heard that voice in my head that is not me that assures me I am on the right or wrong path. I've done lots of other things that allow me to relax into the belief that there is a God, however it's purely belief and faith. There is no proof.

Being learned in the Bible to a much greater degree than anyone else on this board, I'd expect that you'd proffer your knowledge about it when people ask. Unless you're just one of "those" Christians.

So, again, please explain to me what God says about other species of humanoids in His book.

Another point I'd like to posit - if God is perfect and never messes up why would He ever have needed to wipe the Earth clean of everything and start over again? Why would there ever need to be a Lucifer? Why evil if it is anathema to God? Those are rhetorical questions but I'm using them to ask you how can God be perfect if those things happened and/or exist?