(07-14-2015 05:47 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  Hey dawg, tried to apply today since im in a new job without insurance and was prompted on healthcare.gov to apply for Medicaid since i didnt have a qualifying life event to purchase outside the enrollment period. This is the main website that knows I'm a 34 year old, non disabled white male. It told me i wasn't eligible foe Medicaid but should apply anyway to see about a waiver. Ill try to take a picture of the screen tomorrow if i have time to log back on. I can apply for an exemption to get insurance though the exchange even though i don't qualify for a life changing event, but have to print and fill out a paper application to mail in.

I sure hope it works out for you. Good luck.

(07-14-2015 05:52 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(07-14-2015 05:23 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(07-14-2015 05:08 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  Charles Gaba attempted to break down the numbers of the 33 million still uninsured. Here are his estimates.

6.5 million: Undocumented Immigrants
3.7 million: Medicaid Gap
3.5 million: Eligible for Medicaid/CHIP
7.9 million: Between 100-400% FPL (tax credits)
8.6 million: Over 400% FPL

Explain how this number is 6.5million, when the number of illegal aliens is MUCH more than that?

Don't let the drag you into the minutia. The numbers of illegals are estimates and so is all this. Whether it is 6.5 or 20 depends on lots of other issues.

I'm just finding out how a big portion of the illegal aliens suddenly have health insurance. I was told that the number of uninsured illegals was a number between 2-6 times higher than that prior to Obamacare, and that Obamacare wouldnt cover illegals. Now, all of a sudden, the number of uninsured illegals has plummeted?

(07-14-2015 06:27 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(07-14-2015 05:52 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(07-14-2015 05:23 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(07-14-2015 05:08 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  Charles Gaba attempted to break down the numbers of the 33 million still uninsured. Here are his estimates.

6.5 million: Undocumented Immigrants
3.7 million: Medicaid Gap
3.5 million: Eligible for Medicaid/CHIP
7.9 million: Between 100-400% FPL (tax credits)
8.6 million: Over 400% FPL

Explain how this number is 6.5million, when the number of illegal aliens is MUCH more than that?

Don't let the drag you into the minutia. The numbers of illegals are estimates and so is all this. Whether it is 6.5 or 20 depends on lots of other issues.

I'm just finding out how a big portion of the illegal aliens suddenly have health insurance. I was told that the number of uninsured illegals was a number between 2-6 times higher than that prior to Obamacare, and that Obamacare wouldnt cover illegals. Now, all of a sudden, the number of uninsured illegals has plummeted?

Evidently there are 4 or 5 million that have coverage, through an employer or bought from an insurance agent I suppose. They can't get Medicaid but there may be some state programs, California for instance that offer some coverage too. Who told you that the number of uninsured illegals was so much higher prior to the ACA?

(07-14-2015 08:16 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-14-2015 06:27 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(07-14-2015 05:52 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(07-14-2015 05:23 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(07-14-2015 05:08 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  Charles Gaba attempted to break down the numbers of the 33 million still uninsured. Here are his estimates.

6.5 million: Undocumented Immigrants
3.7 million: Medicaid Gap
3.5 million: Eligible for Medicaid/CHIP
7.9 million: Between 100-400% FPL (tax credits)
8.6 million: Over 400% FPL

Explain how this number is 6.5million, when the number of illegal aliens is MUCH more than that?

Don't let the drag you into the minutia. The numbers of illegals are estimates and so is all this. Whether it is 6.5 or 20 depends on lots of other issues.

I'm just finding out how a big portion of the illegal aliens suddenly have health insurance. I was told that the number of uninsured illegals was a number between 2-6 times higher than that prior to Obamacare, and that Obamacare wouldnt cover illegals. Now, all of a sudden, the number of uninsured illegals has plummeted?

Evidently there are 4 or 5 million that have coverage, through an employer or bought from an insurance agent I suppose. They can't get Medicaid but there may be some state programs, California for instance that offer some coverage too. Who told you that the number of uninsured illegals was so much higher prior to the ACA?

So while the economy has been in the crapper and emplyment rates at an all time low under Obama, in the past 15 months at least half of the illegals in American have been able to secure a job that also offers health insurance?

(07-14-2015 08:46 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(07-14-2015 08:16 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-14-2015 06:27 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(07-14-2015 05:52 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(07-14-2015 05:23 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  Explain how this number is 6.5million, when the number of illegal aliens is MUCH more than that?

Don't let the drag you into the minutia. The numbers of illegals are estimates and so is all this. Whether it is 6.5 or 20 depends on lots of other issues.

I'm just finding out how a big portion of the illegal aliens suddenly have health insurance. I was told that the number of uninsured illegals was a number between 2-6 times higher than that prior to Obamacare, and that Obamacare wouldnt cover illegals. Now, all of a sudden, the number of uninsured illegals has plummeted?

Evidently there are 4 or 5 million that have coverage, through an employer or bought from an insurance agent I suppose. They can't get Medicaid but there may be some state programs, California for instance that offer some coverage too. Who told you that the number of uninsured illegals was so much higher prior to the ACA?

So while the economy has been in the crapper and emplyment rates at an all time low under Obama, in the past 15 months at least half of the illegals in American have been able to secure a job that also offers health insurance?

You are making assumptions and have some incorrect information there.

The economy has been slowly but surely improving since the 2008 recession so it really isn't in the crapper right now. Unemployment rates have been going down.

You seem to be assuming that the undocumented just recently got jobs and just got coverage. I think it is more likely that a large number of them if not most were already employed and a lot of them already had coverage. Unemployed undocumented go back across the border if they can't get work. Why would they stay, work was the whole purpose in coming here?

I found this regarding the undocumented and insurance from back in 2007.
"Pew's data indicate that 11.9 million illegal immigrants were in the United States in 2007. About 6.8 million of them did not have health insurance." That dovetails pretty well with those 2015 estimates. It seems that about the same percentage had coverage then as have it today.

Charles Gaba included a blog entry today regarding undocumented coverage.
"What about the OTHER 4.5 million undocumented immigrants?"
http://acasignups.net/15/07/15/what-abou...immigrants

(07-14-2015 08:16 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  Evidently there are 4 or 5 million that have coverage, through an employer or bought from an insurance agent I suppose. They can't get Medicaid but there may be some state programs, California for instance that offer some coverage too. Who told you that the number of uninsured illegals was so much higher prior to the ACA?

What California offers is not insurance by any measure. It is emergency Medicaid which reimburses the hospital 'some' for Emergency, life saving or otherwise vital care.... and nothing more. Texas has similar. I suspect other border states also do. It was and still essentially is to keep the picture the activist left always paints of people without coverage dying in the streets from bankrupting hospitals. Of course, if you want to call it Insurance, I suppose you can... it's just extremely limited.

As to his assumptions, I don't buy that for a minute. If you're here illegally, you don't have an SSN. How are you getting insurance through your employer? An employer is funding a policy for an employee that they're paying under the table? Alternatively, someone who has 'borrowed' someone else's SSN to get work is having healthcare deducted from his paycheck?

I'm not saying the number is zero... but it's nowhere near HALF of the illegal immigrants here. I might believe 1mm (10%ish) and maybe even 2mm based on those who have been here for a generation... but not anything remotely resembling 50%.

Based on what I see here, I'm betting that the +/- 4mm are those who actually get injured somehow and get that sort of 'Emergency Medicaid' coverage so they are counted as 'insured'. All of the others would similarly be covered, but they didn't go to the ER.

(07-15-2015 03:02 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(07-14-2015 08:16 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  Evidently there are 4 or 5 million that have coverage, through an employer or bought from an insurance agent I suppose. They can't get Medicaid but there may be some state programs, California for instance that offer some coverage too. Who told you that the number of uninsured illegals was so much higher prior to the ACA?

What California offers is not insurance by any measure. It is emergency Medicaid which reimburses the hospital 'some' for Emergency, life saving or otherwise vital care.... and nothing more. Texas has similar. I suspect other border states also do. It was and still essentially is to keep the picture the activist left always paints of people without coverage dying in the streets from bankrupting hospitals. Of course, if you want to call it Insurance, I suppose you can... it's just extremely limited.

As to his assumptions, I don't buy that for a minute. If you're here illegally, you don't have an SSN. How are you getting insurance through your employer? An employer is funding a policy for an employee that they're paying under the table? Alternatively, someone who has 'borrowed' someone else's SSN to get work is having healthcare deducted from his paycheck?

I'm not saying the number is zero... but it's nowhere near HALF of the illegal immigrants here. I might believe 1mm (10%ish) and maybe even 2mm based on those who have been here for a generation... but not anything remotely resembling 50%.

Based on what I see here, I'm betting that the +/- 4mm are those who actually get injured somehow and get that sort of 'Emergency Medicaid' coverage so they are counted as 'insured'. All of the others would similarly be covered, but they didn't go to the ER.

click on the link in post 406 for further information

(07-12-2015 09:27 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-12-2015 08:32 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(07-04-2015 09:17 AM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-04-2015 08:37 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-03-2015 02:25 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  Confirmed Exchange QHPs: 12,024,658 as of 7/03/15
Estimated: 12.80M (9.71M via HCgov) as of 7/03/15
Estimated ACA-Enabled Policy Enrollment: 32.7M
(10.3M Paid/Effectuated Exchange QHPs, 8.2M OFF-Exchange QHPs, 180K SHOP, 14.0M Medicaid/CHIP)

When are you going to post numbers for how many of those are crap policies, essentially worthless, and how many of them actually provide access to real health CARE?

If I'm not mistaken about 68% buy Silver Plans. Those certainly aren't crap policies. Bronze policies could probably be classified as crap policies.

Unless you are getting the welfare handout on an exchange or are wealthy enough to buy a the Cadillac plan on your own....you are fcked. There are no reasonably priced plans that are not total schit. I spend almost 7 grand a year for such a schitty policy.

If you have a government job?...You better keep it. If your employer pays for your insurance?...you better stay with that company. Do whatever you have to do to NOT have to buy your own insurance.

Oh come on Fo you play golf in Pinehurst, you know you make the big bucks.

On occasion. I went last month with a group of 24. $275 for two nights at Talamore Resort including golf at Talamore and So Pines CC. Not a kings ransom for a weekend.

(07-15-2015 03:10 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  click on the link in post 406 for further information

Dude... do you HONESTLY think you can tell me anything about California healthcare? Seriously?

Let's start with this. I don't know who Charles Gaba is. Is that you? According to the internet, He's not a professional statistician, healthcare expert or politician. So by all means, let's listen to him!

I read it, and while Liza has SOME credibility in the area, she isn't the one making the estimates.... and i suspect if she did, she'd be far closer to my numbers than yours/Gaba's.

Let's look at her list.

1) Student health plans. The number of illegal immigrants enrolling in those 'many' colleges and universities (meaning schools like Cal State and NOT schools like College of the Sequoia's) is probably fewer than 100,000. Probably fewer than 50,000. Since they aren't citizens, they don't qualify for aid, they are paying full freight. In state, but still not cheap. According to Jerry Brown QUOTED IN YOUR ARTICLE, there are only 170,000 undocumented children under 18 in California. How many 19-24 year old undocumented immigrants do you think there are going to the 'major' state Universities? Frankly, as I type this, we're probably talking about fewer than 20,000.

2) How many companies do you know of that hire people not legally allowed to work here and offer them benefits? As I said, it's more than zero, but it is also a number in the 5 digits AT MOST.

3) Yes they CAN purchase insurance... and I'm sure some do. This also isn't in the millions of people since they get no subsidy or assistance.

4) I mentioned the sort of benefits that are available to people regardless of their immigration status. It isn't insurance (at least it wouldn't qualify under the ACA as insurance, but someone wanting to fudge a number of 'insured' people and 'muddy the waters' could claim they are insured.

5) Community health centers. Yep, Texas does this as well just as I told you when you argued that by not expanding medicaid, these people were 'uninsured' by your definition. Now that you want to make a different point, you're calling these people insured. Typical. Just as in #4, It isn't insurance (at least it wouldn't qualify under the ACA as insurance, but someone wanting to fudge a number of 'insured' people and 'muddy the waters' could claim they are insured.

6) This is a repeat of 4... State based healthcare

7) This is a repeat of 5... a community health center.


Note about 4 and 5. all along I've differentiated between 'care' and 'insurance'... These people and programs provide 'care', but they do not provide insurance. So in a thread about counting the 'insured', you describe them as having insurance... but in a thread talking about expanding medicaid so that these people can get 'care', you point out that these people are uninsured. And you claim I muddy the waters?

Laughable.

1,2 and 3 combined are probably fewer than 250-300k. The vast majority of these people would therefore fall into categories 4 and 5 (as 6 and 7 are merely semantic differences of essentially the same groups)... which means that according to your own estimates, half of those illegals in this country are getting 'care'... of course, when you're trying to make things look good for you, you call it insurance and when you want to make it look bad you don't, but that is beside the point.

So why aren't those LEGALLY in this country getting that same care? The fact is that they are. Despite all the gloom and doom that was given to us and continues to be given to us, TENS OF MILLIONS OF UNINSURED AMERICANS (using the same math you did for illegals... 50%) WERE getting care. Could it be improved? OF COURSE we could always give more/better care and as I've always said, the BEST thing about the ACA is that it provides more money to be spent on healthcare... of course it comes in the form of what is essentially a tax on the young and healthy... but that was his party's choice.

Thank you for proving my points... and defeating your own.

(07-16-2015 10:19 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(07-15-2015 03:10 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  click on the link in post 406 for further information

Dude... do you HONESTLY think you can tell me anything about California healthcare? Seriously?

Let's start with this. I don't know who Charles Gaba is. Is that you? According to the internet, He's not a professional statistician, healthcare expert or politician. So by all means, let's listen to him!

I read it, and while Liza has SOME credibility in the area, she isn't the one making the estimates.... and i suspect if she did, she'd be far closer to my numbers than yours/Gaba's.

Let's look at her list.

1) Student health plans. The number of illegal immigrants enrolling in those 'many' colleges and universities (meaning schools like Cal State and NOT schools like College of the Sequoia's) is probably fewer than 100,000. Probably fewer than 50,000. Since they aren't citizens, they don't qualify for aid, they are paying full freight. In state, but still not cheap. According to Jerry Brown QUOTED IN YOUR ARTICLE, there are only 170,000 undocumented children under 18 in California. How many 19-24 year old undocumented immigrants do you think there are going to the 'major' state Universities? Frankly, as I type this, we're probably talking about fewer than 20,000.

2) How many companies do you know of that hire people not legally allowed to work here and offer them benefits? As I said, it's more than zero, but it is also a number in the 5 digits AT MOST.

3) Yes they CAN purchase insurance... and I'm sure some do. This also isn't in the millions of people since they get no subsidy or assistance.

4) I mentioned the sort of benefits that are available to people regardless of their immigration status. It isn't insurance (at least it wouldn't qualify under the ACA as insurance, but someone wanting to fudge a number of 'insured' people and 'muddy the waters' could claim they are insured.

5) Community health centers. Yep, Texas does this as well just as I told you when you argued that by not expanding medicaid, these people were 'uninsured' by your definition. Now that you want to make a different point, you're calling these people insured. Typical. Just as in #4, It isn't insurance (at least it wouldn't qualify under the ACA as insurance, but someone wanting to fudge a number of 'insured' people and 'muddy the waters' could claim they are insured.

6) This is a repeat of 4... State based healthcare

7) This is a repeat of 5... a community health center.


Note about 4 and 5. all along I've differentiated between 'care' and 'insurance'... These people and programs provide 'care', but they do not provide insurance. So in a thread about counting the 'insured', you describe them as having insurance... but in a thread talking about expanding medicaid so that these people can get 'care', you point out that these people are uninsured. And you claim I muddy the waters?

Laughable.

1,2 and 3 combined are probably fewer than 250-300k. The vast majority of these people would therefore fall into categories 4 and 5 (as 6 and 7 are merely semantic differences of essentially the same groups)... which means that according to your own estimates, half of those illegals in this country are getting 'care'... of course, when you're trying to make things look good for you, you call it insurance and when you want to make it look bad you don't, but that is beside the point.

So why aren't those LEGALLY in this country getting that same care? The fact is that they are. Despite all the gloom and doom that was given to us and continues to be given to us, TENS OF MILLIONS OF UNINSURED AMERICANS (using the same math you did for illegals... 50%) WERE getting care. Could it be improved? OF COURSE we could always give more/better care and as I've always said, the BEST thing about the ACA is that it provides more money to be spent on healthcare... of course it comes in the form of what is essentially a tax on the young and healthy... but that was his party's choice.

Thank you for proving my points... and defeating your own.

Calm down Ham. You are so defensive. This isn't a competition. We are just wondering how 4 or 5 million undocumented immigrants have coverage. Gaba hasn't claimed to be an expert on the subject, just looking into it. The LA Times article is simply a resource that at least partially addresses the subject. It is addressing health care which would include "care" and "insurance". You seem to think everything is an effort to win points but it isn't. It is an effort to look at the issue.

Personally I always assumed that basically all the undocumented immigrants were uninsured. I'm surprised that a large percentage of them appear to have insurance. Are the numbers accurate? I don't know.

(07-15-2015 09:42 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(07-12-2015 09:27 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-12-2015 08:32 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(07-04-2015 09:17 AM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-04-2015 08:37 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  When are you going to post numbers for how many of those are crap policies, essentially worthless, and how many of them actually provide access to real health CARE?

If I'm not mistaken about 68% buy Silver Plans. Those certainly aren't crap policies. Bronze policies could probably be classified as crap policies.

Unless you are getting the welfare handout on an exchange or are wealthy enough to buy a the Cadillac plan on your own....you are fcked. There are no reasonably priced plans that are not total schit. I spend almost 7 grand a year for such a schitty policy.

If you have a government job?...You better keep it. If your employer pays for your insurance?...you better stay with that company. Do whatever you have to do to NOT have to buy your own insurance.

Oh come on Fo you play golf in Pinehurst, you know you make the big bucks.

On occasion. I went last month with a group of 24. $275 for two nights at Talamore Resort including golf at Talamore and So Pines CC. Not a kings ransom for a weekend.

You know I'm just messing with you Fo. I know health insurance is expensive for a (self employed or working for co. that doesn't offer coverage) 50 something year old, but there is a big upside. You don't get the tax credits (not welfare handouts) so you must be making at least 48k as an individual or 64k between you and your wife or 97k if it is a family of 4, whichever is the case. That is good, good income in Eastern NC. You have some disposable income to go on golf trips and weekends fishing at Oak Island? or HB? or OIB?. That is pretty sweet! I'd say your glass is at least half full!

(07-16-2015 11:20 AM)dawgitall Wrote:  Calm down Ham. You are so defensive. This isn't a competition. We are just wondering how 4 or 5 million undocumented immigrants have coverage. Gaba hasn't claimed to be an expert on the subject, just looking into it. The LA Times article is simply a resource that at least partially addresses the subject. It is addressing health care which would include "care" and "insurance". You seem to think everything is an effort to win points but it isn't. It is an effort to look at the issue.

Personally I always assumed that basically all the undocumented immigrants were uninsured. I'm surprised that a large percentage of them appear to have insurance. Are the numbers accurate? I don't know.

No, it's not a competition... Healthcare is too important for that....

but conversations require people to accept proofs and facts.... which you repeatedly have failed to do... You take everything, even this and look at it from a political perspective.... repeatedly accusing me of 'muddying the waters' when I have provided nothing but facts, even facts supported by your own links... when it has been you, repeatedly providing what can best be termed, 'misleading information.'

That's not a competition, because there IS no competition. It is one person with facts and the other with spin

If you want to compete with those on the right who equally spin and mislead, then go ahead.

That isn't me.... and you know it.

As I've repeatedly said and proven, my objection to the ACA is that it doesn't do what we were told it was going to do, and that the supporters, now mostly funded and encouraged by the administration (which has a bully pulpit and some deep pockets) continue to mislead and mis-state the reality of the situation.

Honestly, who are the 'deep pockets' against the ACA? Insurers don't care. All they want is to know the rules... they can make money as long as they know the rules.. ESPECIALLY when the government forces everyone into commerce. Religion? They have some issues with the specifics, but since when is religion 'anti-healthcare'? Most charity hospitals are religiously affiliated. Poor rural hospitals can't afford to lobby. BAD PCPs are actually in favor of this and good ones will be able to fill their waiting rooms with 'preferred' patients regardless. Yes, Republicans are fundamentally against the ACA, but there is no compelling financial interest to fund their objections.

Unfortunately, the only people really being hurt by the ACA are 'most' taxpayers... half of whom neither party cares about and the young and healthy, who are the subject of bloggers like your buddy who really don't know what they're talking about and provide misleading information/responses that only really make sense if you don't know any better.

Do I get defensive? Abso-bloomin'-lutely.... Because people like you and your blogger buddy make my job and my life more difficult than it needs to be and create a following of poorly informed people who compound my issues.

This is a perfect example... You posted politically slanted information (counting people as 'insured' who you otherwise wouldn't count) and when someone brought up the question, you failed to notice that what people have been telling you all along about resources being available for the 'uninsured' and why Medicaid expansion isn't always the best answer or even necessary is true, and that all of the claims about the tens of millions of 'uninsured' people that was the entire reason we needed the ACA and medicaid expansion was lies.

And I point this out, and you say I'm being defensive.

Ham, that was a lot of typing that has nothing to do with what we were presently talking about. We were looking at who might the 33 million or so of the uninsured be. UofM noted that the uninsured undocumented immigrant number didn't match the number of undocumented immigrants estimated to be in the country. Like him, I always figured the two numbers would be about the same. It appears that that isn't the case. Estimates from 2007 seem to indicate that there are about the same percentage of insured and uninsured undocumented in the country over the last several years. So some questions are, how are these people getting insurance, are these muddied numbers confusing care with insurance, how accurate are the number?

Sometimes we should be able to just discuss something without butting heads.

(07-13-2015 06:28 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  Confirmed Exchange QHPs: 12,029,748 as of 7/12/15
Estimated: 12.87M (9.78M via HCgov) as of 7/12/15
Estimated ACA-Enabled Policy Enrollment: 32.9M
(10.3M Paid/Effectuated Exchange QHPs, 8.2M OFF-Exchange QHPs, 180K SHOP, 14.2M Medicaid/CHIP)

Confirmed Exchange QHPs: 12,072,682 as of 7/16/15
Estimated: 12.9M (9.8M via HCgov) as of 7/16/15
Estimated ACA-Enabled Policy Enrollment: 33.0M
(10.4M Paid/Effectuated Exchange QHPs, 8.2M OFF-Exchange QHPs, 180K SHOP, 14.2M Medicaid/CHIP)

(07-16-2015 04:51 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  Ham, that was a lot of typing that has nothing to do with what we were presently talking about. We were looking at who might the 33 million or so of the uninsured be. UofM noted that the uninsured undocumented immigrant number didn't match the number of undocumented immigrants estimated to be in the country. Like him, I always figured the two numbers would be about the same. It appears that that isn't the case. Estimates from 2007 seem to indicate that there are about the same percentage of insured and uninsured undocumented in the country over the last several years. So some questions are, how are these people getting insurance, are these muddied numbers confusing care with insurance, how accurate are the number?

Sometimes we should be able to just discuss something without butting heads.

What you don't seem to understand or admit that the only one 'confused' about these numbers is you. I've repeatedly and correctly told you exactly what they are, and you repeatedly deflect me to 'blogs' or other quotes from people with an agenda as if they are correct and I am not.

Stop spreading lies (Evidently there are 4 or 5 million that have coverage,) and deflecting my truth (click on the link in post 406 for further information) and we won't butt heads. I clicked on the link. I explained it to you, and NOW you're saying I typed a lot and didn't address the issue

WTF... YOU GAVE ME THE DAMN LINK AND THEN REFERRED ME BACK TO IT!! HOW DOES EXPLAINING THOSE 'MUDDIED' NUMBERS NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE DISCUSSION ABOUT MUDDIED NUMBERS?

I explained it to you, but I can't learn it for you.

The only people confused are those who aren't paying attention to informed people or those who find value in the confusion. I'm not yet sure which one you are. If you ARE this blogger, it's the latter. That's how you drive traffic. Clear and direct answers rarely get much attention... with the evidence being that you don't want to hear my factual and supported response to your blogger.

(07-17-2015 10:05 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(07-16-2015 04:51 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  Ham, that was a lot of typing that has nothing to do with what we were presently talking about. We were looking at who might the 33 million or so of the uninsured be. UofM noted that the uninsured undocumented immigrant number didn't match the number of undocumented immigrants estimated to be in the country. Like him, I always figured the two numbers would be about the same. It appears that that isn't the case. Estimates from 2007 seem to indicate that there are about the same percentage of insured and uninsured undocumented in the country over the last several years. So some questions are, how are these people getting insurance, are these muddied numbers confusing care with insurance, how accurate are the number?

Sometimes we should be able to just discuss something without butting heads.

What you don't seem to understand or admit that the only one 'confused' about these numbers is you. I've repeatedly and correctly told you exactly what they are, and you repeatedly deflect me to 'blogs' or other quotes from people with an agenda as if they are correct and I am not.

Stop spreading lies (Evidently there are 4 or 5 million that have coverage,) and deflecting my truth (click on the link in post 406 for further information) and we won't butt heads. I clicked on the link. I explained it to you, and NOW you're saying I typed a lot and didn't address the issue

WTF... YOU GAVE ME THE DAMN LINK AND THEN REFERRED ME BACK TO IT!! HOW DOES EXPLAINING THOSE 'MUDDIED' NUMBERS NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE DISCUSSION ABOUT MUDDIED NUMBERS?

I explained it to you, but I can't learn it for you.

The only people confused are those who aren't paying attention to informed people or those who find value in the confusion. I'm not yet sure which one you are. If you ARE this blogger, it's the latter. That's how you drive traffic. Clear and direct answers rarely get much attention... with the evidence being that you don't want to hear my factual and supported response to your blogger.

Ham you are just some piece of work. Just humor me.

1. How many undocumented immigrants do you think are in the country? About 11 million is the most often estimate I've seen. Do you think that is incorrect?
2. How many of those undocumented immigrants do you think have insurance? That would exclude any care options other than insurance coverage.
3. What would be the sources of coverage?

(07-19-2015 03:46 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  Ham you are just some piece of work. Just humor me.

I've been humoring you for months now and I'm getting tired of it.

Quote:1. How many undocumented immigrants do you think are in the country? About 11 million is the most often estimate I've seen. Do you think that is incorrect?
2. How many of those undocumented immigrants do you think have insurance? That would exclude any care options other than insurance coverage.
3. What would be the sources of coverage?

I've answered these questions repeatedly... and even in posts 407 and 410 in this thread.

1) I don't really care WHAT the number is. I'll accept 11mm for conversation here as the actual number is fundamentally immaterial, but since they are here illegally and there is no way to find them (unless they commit a crime and get caught) all this is is a guess. Why are you bringing up an immigration question with regard to healthcare except to once again cloud the issues?

2) As I've suggested, and supported by your own link, probably less than a few hundred thousand at most.

3) generally speaking, hospitals and 'free' clinics. There are a myriad of ways that those entities get funding... some from the state, some from feds, some from city or county taxes and some from charities. Obviously Texas has a different issue with regard to 'the uninsured' than say West Virgina or New Hampshire, so the states have different means of addressing the needs of the uninsured... and I don'[t intend to describe every possible way. Many of them are articulated by your link, and I specifically addressed each and every one of them, and have done so repeatedly in response to your claims (echoing the party line on the ACA) that 'the uninsured had no access to healthcare and that is why we needed the ACA'.

Obviously they DO have access to care, even without the ACA. I don't know how many illegals there are, but I'll accept virtually any estimate because 'quantity' is not an issue for this discussion.

Your source says it's near 11mm and I have heard that number before. Fine. I understand others will argue that it is closer to 20, but that doesn't matter for this conversation. Whether it is 300k/11mm or 300k/9mm or 300k/20mm with an ACA qualifying policy is immaterial.... as is whether it is 100k or 500k. It's nowhere near 'half' and the only way to claim that it is (which was what you and your blogger did) was to include all of the 'coverage' that also existed before the ACA, that you have repeatedly ignored until now that it suits your defense of the ACA.

My point is that the poor in this country have that same access... meaning that they, too had access to healthcare before the ACA. I'm not saying they had ENOUGH care as that is a value judgement and opinions will vary, but the whole argument that they had NO access has never been correct.

PART of what the government is doing (especially under 'expanded medicaid) is simply to reclassify these people from being 'uninsured, but with some limited access to care' to being 'insured, with some limited access to care'... and you spend your life posting these numbers.

The reality is that the extra money being collected under the ACA could have provided exactly the same care to exactly the same people by simply increasing the amount of federal funding for these various 'ancillary' delivery systems that the various states and counties and charities had created... and ALL without creating a new bureaucracy to administer any of it.

Seriously, Dawg... I'll be a bit offensive here I'm sure, but this is how I see every discussion with you...

Dawg: According to a blog I read referencing a report from KFF, 10mm people now have healthcare who didn't before.

Me: If you actually read the report you're referencing, that's only part of the equation. 1) if you read it, the report says that number is related to 'insurance' not 'healthcare' as you stated... not to mention that in addition to the fact that we don't have more people to deliver that care, a decent percentage of them HAD access to healthcare before, but through alternate means... and 2) in the same article, that number doesn't include the 3mm who lost access, so the actual number of 'increase in the number of insured is only 7mm, and the actual number of increase in the number of people who have healthcare is closer to 4mm... all of which is in the KFF report, but NOT in the bloggers summary... which of course, one would expect that spending trillions on something SHOULD deliver some positive results.

Dawg: Why do you keep muddying the waters, Hambone?

So basically you think that if there are 11 million undocumented there are about 10.5 million that don't have insurance. If you are correct then that would put the total uninsured in the US at 37 million rather than 33 million. It would also put those old estimates off by about 4 million as it appears that those preACA estimates of the uninsured estimated the undocumented as having about 4.5 million down as covered.