(09-28-2020 03:54 PM)eroc Wrote: [ -> ] (09-28-2020 12:48 PM)Bearhawkeye Wrote: [ -> ] (09-28-2020 11:36 AM)eroc Wrote: [ -> ]With all the talk about Burrow and his lack of protection, i haven't heard much about Jonah Williams. How is he doing?
Coming into week 3 I saw some discussion about the PFF rankings (I don't have a subscription to get all the details) and my recollection is the Bengals OL as a whole wasn't ranked quite as bad as they looked to most of us - maybe 23rd-25th in the NFL as a unit. No individual on the OL actually qualified as good, but they were largely OK with the exception of RG which has been simply awful. I wanna say that Jonah and even Hart were roughly average (each somewhere between 29-35 out of 60+ I vaguely recall) starting tackles. I suspect the Philly results will be more of the same if not worse across the board.
Not that he's a star but the loss of Xavier Su'a-Filo has just crushed them. I don't say that as an excuse - injuries are always a part of the NFL and everyone knows you need quality depth and the Bengals have failed miserably at having RG depth. Fixing it is obviously going to be very difficult at this point, especially until Xavier gets back. One interesting idea I just read about here was trading for ex-Bengal Kevin Zeitler. He's on the NYG and they seem to be in tank mode.
Good article on all this from SI:
The Bengals need to protect Joe Burrow by aggressively addressing their biggest weakness
Thanks for the link Bearhawkeye. Wasted a bunch of draft equity on misses up and down the line over the past couple of seasons. No depth, no serviceable starters and we are trying to protect a Franchise QB with an OL held together by duct tape. Brutal.
Turns out they do seem to give out their overall grades/rankings on PFF (but the breakdowns in individual categories are behind the paywall.) Anyway, FWIW Jonah gets a 66.8 which puts him 38th out of 71 OTs who qualify while Hart isn't far behind at 65.6 which puts him 42nd. Hopkins gets a 62.4 which puts him 24 out of 34 C.
Xavier was actually very good at 75.5 but as discussed, he's on IR and didn't even get enough snaps to qualify for the OG rankings. Jordan's pretty bad at 54.3 which puts him 57 out of 78 OGs. Fred Johnson kicks it down a notch from there at 48.8 which puts him 68th and Billy Price probably isn't long for the NFL at this point with his score of 38.8 which puts him 75th out of 78 OGs.
Point of all this being no active Bengals OLs are actually even average as NFL starters but they are close enough to be workable at OT (especially considering the inexperience of Jonah in particular) and arguably even at C. You can maybe even live with Jordan at LG as your weak link (again considering his inexperience and hoping/expecting improvement). Those 4 OL are all below average, but probably workable if you have a top RG (by his grade Xavier probably qualifies but who knows when he'll be back and if he'll keep it up.) But when you have to play some combination of Fred Johnson and Billy Price instead at RG at their current levels, the whole thing falls apart as we've seen the last 2 weeks in particular.
(09-28-2020 03:55 PM)eroc Wrote: [ -> ] (09-28-2020 12:29 PM)Cataclysmo Wrote: [ -> ] (09-28-2020 11:36 AM)eroc Wrote: [ -> ]With all the talk about Burrow and his lack of protection, i haven't heard much about Jonah Williams. How is he doing?
On a decent Offensive Line we'd spend most of our time talking about how Jonah has shown flashes of potential but is experiencing 1st-year struggles. Instead, he's one of the more "certain" things we have out there. Not hearing about him is generally a good thing.
i'll have to pay attention to him the next times they play Baltimore. He's a top 5 pick. He needs to be a cornerstone for the future.
Jonah actually went 11th but you are right about him needing to be a cornerstone of the future. Realistically he isn't the next Munoz, but it would be huge if he can be the next Willie Anderson or Whitworth. That's a major building block especially when you have what looks to be a game-changing asset in Burrow at QB.
Speaking of Burrow, I also checked his PFF grade so far: 76.1 which is good for 12th among 35 QBs. Not too shabby for a rookie in his first 3 games with no preseason and playing behind this line.
(09-28-2020 05:30 PM)Bearhawkeye Wrote: [ -> ] (09-28-2020 03:55 PM)eroc Wrote: [ -> ] (09-28-2020 12:29 PM)Cataclysmo Wrote: [ -> ] (09-28-2020 11:36 AM)eroc Wrote: [ -> ]With all the talk about Burrow and his lack of protection, i haven't heard much about Jonah Williams. How is he doing?
On a decent Offensive Line we'd spend most of our time talking about how Jonah has shown flashes of potential but is experiencing 1st-year struggles. Instead, he's one of the more "certain" things we have out there. Not hearing about him is generally a good thing.
i'll have to pay attention to him the next times they play Baltimore. He's a top 5 pick. He needs to be a cornerstone for the future.
Jonah actually went 11th but you are right about him needing to be a cornerstone of the future. Realistically he isn't the next Munoz, but it would be huge if he can be the next Willie Anderson or Whitworth. That's a major building block especially when you have what looks to be a game-changing asset in Burrow at QB.
Speaking of Burrow, I also checked his PFF grade so far: 76.1 which is good for 12th among 35 QBs. Not too shabby for a rookie in his first 3 games with no preseason and playing behind this line.
LOL..i missed badly on that one. That was the draft where both LBs they wanted got drafted ahead of our pick, correct? Wonder what i was confusing his draft with?
The reality is that this line is the result of a few years missing the target in the draft and not patching the holes in free agency.
They let Whit walk, thinking he was washed.
They let Zeitler get away
They drafted a complete 1st round bust in Ogbuehi.
They drafted another complete 1st round bust in Price.
They're biggest Oline signing in that period is Xavier Sua Fluo, who is now on in injured reserve.
Thankfully Trey Hopkins has panned out. And Jonah williams actually seems to have potential. Otherwise, we cannot afford to miss in the draft again on a Tackle. I hope like hell they get a sure fire thing.
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(09-28-2020 07:22 PM)Cataclysmo Wrote: [ -> ]The reality is that this line is the result of a few years missing the target in the draft and not patching the holes in free agency.
They let Whit walk, thinking he was washed.
They let Zeitler get away
They drafted a complete 1st round bust in Ogbuehi.
They drafted another complete 1st round bust in Price.
They're biggest Oline signing in that period is Xavier Sua Fluo, who is now on in injured reserve.
Thankfully Trey Hopkins has panned out. And Jonah williams actually seems to have potential. Otherwise, we cannot afford to miss in the draft again on a Tackle. I hope like hell they get a sure fire thing.
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Jake Fischer. Bust as well. Early 2nd round same year as Ogbeuhi.
(09-28-2020 03:43 PM)robertfoshizzle Wrote: [ -> ]I just don't understand the logic of giving AJ Green the franchise tag, then drafting Higgins. That's $18 million that could have been spent on the offensive line. Or, if they were stuck on keeping Green around, use that 2nd round pick on an offensive lineman. Just poor roster management.
I think for a rebuilding team bringing back Green on a 1 year deal makes sense because if he shows health you can trade him to a contender who needs a WR. If there was an OL upgrade available they still should of had the ability to go after them.
(09-28-2020 10:49 PM)natibeast21 Wrote: [ -> ] (09-28-2020 07:22 PM)Cataclysmo Wrote: [ -> ]The reality is that this line is the result of a few years missing the target in the draft and not patching the holes in free agency.
They let Whit walk, thinking he was washed.
They let Zeitler get away
They drafted a complete 1st round bust in Ogbuehi.
They drafted another complete 1st round bust in Price.
They're biggest Oline signing in that period is Xavier Sua Fluo, who is now on in injured reserve.
Thankfully Trey Hopkins has panned out. And Jonah williams actually seems to have potential. Otherwise, we cannot afford to miss in the draft again on a Tackle. I hope like hell they get a sure fire thing.
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Jake Fischer. Bust as well. Early 2nd round same year as Ogbeuhi.
Unreal how bad they've been at drafting. Does that come down to bad luck, poor scouting, not budgeting enough for scouting, or a bit of all 3?
(09-29-2020 07:17 AM)dubcat14 Wrote: [ -> ] (09-28-2020 10:49 PM)natibeast21 Wrote: [ -> ] (09-28-2020 07:22 PM)Cataclysmo Wrote: [ -> ]The reality is that this line is the result of a few years missing the target in the draft and not patching the holes in free agency.
They let Whit walk, thinking he was washed.
They let Zeitler get away
They drafted a complete 1st round bust in Ogbuehi.
They drafted another complete 1st round bust in Price.
They're biggest Oline signing in that period is Xavier Sua Fluo, who is now on in injured reserve.
Thankfully Trey Hopkins has panned out. And Jonah williams actually seems to have potential. Otherwise, we cannot afford to miss in the draft again on a Tackle. I hope like hell they get a sure fire thing.
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Jake Fischer. Bust as well. Early 2nd round same year as Ogbeuhi.
Unreal how bad they've been at drafting. Does that come down to bad luck, poor scouting, not budgeting enough for scouting, or a bit of all 3?
Bolded, sometimes a situation breaks the wrong way for any given player with injuries or "fit" for a team but the Bengals have no credibility arguing
bad luck when we see consistently successful franchises such as Pittsburgh; reload, rebuild and return to the playoffs most every year.
The Bengals get failing grades on two counts: first, having an inept management group in place. Second, having ownership that is totally clueless about improving that inept team management structure. So they continually make the same mistakes and expect different results.
Will Burrow be wanting out someday soon as Carson and others have? His career longevity may depend upon it if he continues to take the physical beatings each week.
They drafted extremely well under Marvin from 2010 to 2014ish. After they let Whitworth walk it's like they suddenly forgot how to scout again. That's sorta why I tend to think Marvin wrestled away some control when we resigned back in 2010, and why I wonder how much of his tenure can be defined by a power struggle with the Brown family.
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Burrow is still a beast.
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We've killed the line all year (rightfully), but they've been good today.
(10-04-2020 02:08 PM)bearcatmark Wrote: [ -> ]We've killed the line all year (rightfully), but they've been good today.
Yeah. With line playing well the Offense looks really solid. Defense is more a byproduct of the Jags sucking but are holding their own
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They really should be 3-1 and we should have false hope before the teeth of the schedule.
(10-04-2020 03:25 PM)bearcatmark Wrote: [ -> ]They really should be 3-1 and we should have false hope before the teeth of the schedule.
Still more interested in draft position than Ws right now. So many holes to fill.
There are actually teams worse than the Bengals. Who’da thunk?
Our schedule is trash. I think 6 wins is entirely possible.
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(10-04-2020 03:48 PM)Cataclysmo Wrote: [ -> ]Our schedule is trash. I think 6 wins is entirely possible.
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Ravens, Steelers and browns are all good.
(10-04-2020 03:59 PM)bearcatmark Wrote: [ -> ] (10-04-2020 03:48 PM)Cataclysmo Wrote: [ -> ]Our schedule is trash. I think 6 wins is entirely possible.
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Ravens, Steelers and browns are all good.
Still have left:
Giants
Washington
Cowboys
Dolphins
Texans.
They have 3 wins combined so far.
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6 hours after the game and Joe Burrow is the #2 trending topic on twitter (from what I can tell anyway). Here's a couple: