(04-18-2022 01:43 PM)Sitting bull Wrote:  

(04-18-2022 01:31 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  In regards to the PL, I don't really think it makes sense for W&M. We may not have big rivalries with a lot of our conference mates, but we certainly don't have rivalries with Bucknell and Colgate.

Here’s the breakdown by league on all sports based on a “divisional” view for W&M:

CAA: Howard, Hampton, Elon, UNCW, NC A&T, Charleston, and say NC Central.

Patriot: American, Navy, Loyola MD, Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell, Army.

I’m not sure I see a big issue on rivalries though a major difference in association and prestige, particularly with the service academies. The Patriot list looks a lot more like the list of schools we compete for athletes.

I’ve thought the Patriot would make more sense for the Tribe as well but apparently the Patriot has some sort of academic index that requires athletes to meet the same admissions standards as the rank and file students that the folks in Williamsburg find objectionable.

(04-18-2022 01:30 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  I could *maybe* see Morgan/DSU going NEC for football only, and NCCU/NSU/SCST going ASun/Big South football only. Then, the MEAC just becomes a non football conference? I'm sure the NCAA would give the MEAC a waiver to get in compliance about the number of team sports offered, though the MEAC would need several schools to start up soccer or something (and they need to find a few baseball programs).

Matt did have an interesting point that the auto-bid matters a little less, but I'm sure a lot of stuff is up in flux with the Celebration Bowl.

That (Matt's comment about the MEAC not needing football automatic berth) is the story Howard will put out, much like NC A&T put out about Big South Football being secure and in the process outing Bryant.

But the reality is, at least three schools were trying to hit the eject button when Wayne Frederick stepped in to save the obviously over long in the tooth Dennis Thomas' bacon. Sonja Stills may be the new face, but she's part of the same office staff that lost the school's confidence. With Frederick ending his term and Howard moving, those schools are probably already on the phone. None of them can trust ALL of the others to stick together when the lead school chose to bail. It's every school for itself.

I suspect the 2023 Celebration Bowl will turn into a SWAC vs. HBCU at-large invite.

(04-18-2022 01:47 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(04-18-2022 01:43 PM)Sitting bull Wrote:  

(04-18-2022 01:31 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  In regards to the PL, I don't really think it makes sense for W&M. We may not have big rivalries with a lot of our conference mates, but we certainly don't have rivalries with Bucknell and Colgate.

Here’s the breakdown by league on all sports based on a “divisional” view for W&M:

CAA: Howard, Hampton, Elon, UNCW, NC A&T, Charleston, and say NC Central.

Patriot: American, Navy, Loyola MD, Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell, Army.

I’m not sure I see a big issue on rivalries though a major difference in association and prestige, particularly with the service academies. The Patriot list looks a lot more like the list of schools we compete for athletes.

I’ve thought the Patriot would make more sense for the Tribe as well but apparently the Patriot has some sort of academic index that requires athletes to meet the same admissions standards as the rank and file students that the folks in Williamsburg find objectionable.

That’s never been the case though there are growing voices now in Williamsburg to set different/lower admission standards for athletes. If you look at our recruits, we are competing with Ivy, Patriot and So Con (Wofford and Furman) most of the time. W&M doesn’t have many places to hide or slide academically, never has.

(04-18-2022 10:25 AM)JMU2004 Wrote:  The only thing that seems to make sense to me is that the Northern members are preparing to split from the Southern members. I can't figure out how continuing to grow serves any real purpose after the additions SBU, Monmouth, and Hampton.

Disagree.

Maybe the latest additions will provide balance. Promoting conference stability by having more homogeneous groupings, that minimize outliers.

For example,
1) Simple North and South Divisions (North = Towson, Delaware, Drexel, Monmouth, Hofstra, SB and Northeastern; South = Howard, W&M, Hampton, Elon, NC A&T, UNCW and CoC). Creating a nice balance of 7 teams in each region.
2) Easier travel partners for scheduling non-revenue sports (CoC-UNCW, NCA&T-Elon, W&M-Hampton, Howard-Towson, Delaware-Drexel, Hofstra-SB and Monmouth-Northeastern). Helping to reduce costs although the conference spans a lot of states.
3) Six private schools (Elon-Hampton-Howard and Northeastern-Hofstra-Drexel) equally shared across the footprint.
4) Good academic profiles amongst programs (W&M-Elon-Howard and Northeastern-SB-Drexel-Delaware) also equally sprinkled throughout the footprint.
5) A welcoming cohort of HBCUs (Howard-Hampton-NCA&T) together in the South.
6) Two non-football programs (CoC & UNCW plus Drexel & Northeastern) in each region.
7) One must-have football-only team (Richmond plus Villanova) in each region.
8) One “regional” university in each division (Monmouth plus College of Charleston) to provide diversity to the Type A “national” universities.

It’s the melting pot approach. Similar to the creation of the US via admission of states (or even immigrants). The difference being that the new additions are closer to the geographic center, rather than the periphery, of the conference. The CAA is creating an identity, a unique brand.

Losing schools to the A-10 and Sun Belt has probably forced CAA leaders to rethink their mission in college athletics. The CAA needs a better brand image to keep the schools working together. They need to increase investments in college athletics, especially a couple of the HBCUs, and that’s difficult when the most successful programs are constantly seeking to leave the conference. Conference membership needs to provide value beyond just financial payouts (it’s a strategy that binds the Patriot and Ivy schools in their respective conferences).

My understanding is that if Howard (or anyone else) leaves, the MEAC is non compliant as a Division 1 conference and with few options to get back. It’s not about the football playoff bid. It’s about how, with the lack of football, the MEAC needs to sponsor two non-basketball men’s team sports with six full members. They’ve got four baseball programs and zero schools sponsoring other men’s team sports (Howard has soccer but they’re leaving). So they’d need to add (either by existing schools starting programs or incoming schools bringing them) two baseball programs and six of some other team sport (soccer, volleyball, lacrosse).

Obviously the easiest thing would be to invite a school that has or will start football, but it sounds like they’ve tried that and can’t find anyone willing to bite. None of the CIAA or SIAC schools appear to be in a position or have an interest in moving up. UNC Pembroke would be outside the HBCU tradition but any port in a storm (the CIAA had Chowan for a few years and still has their football program so it’s not without regional precedent).

Or the NCAA either a) gives them an indefinite waiver that allows them to remain a conference in good standing with just five football teams or b) changes the rules to allow a conference to use football to pass the men’s team sport standard with fewer than six programs, so long as they can show that each school can make a compliant schedule. The NCAA probably would not want one of only two HBCU conferences in Division 1 to die on their watch.

Cyniclone is correct, the MEAC is already out of compliance, with only 4 baseball teams. You have to sponsor 6 team sports, 7 teams in men's and women's basketball, plus 6 members in 4 others. in 2023-24 the MEAC will have:

MBB = 7, WBB = 7, WVB = 7, SB = 7
FB = 5 (not compliant), BB = 4 (not compliant)

Other team sports:
SC State and DSU play Women's Soccer as independents; DSU plays Women's Lacrosse in the ASUN

This assumes nobody else leaves. If one more school leaves they fall out of compliance in both Men's and Women's Basketball, if two more school's leave they fall out of compliance in every sponsored sport (save maybe women's bowling).

ADs, Presidents and Boards are not stupid, they know the situation. And they know it's a matter of time, and not much time at that, before one of their fellow schools bolt. So they will try to get out first.

The CIAA well has already been pumped and came up dry.

Are there any non-football D2 schools on the east coast that would flirt with coming up to keep the shell alive?

Any future MEAC will no longer be an HBCU league—they’ll have to take whoever they can get.

(04-18-2022 03:34 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  The CIAA well has already been pumped and came up dry.

Are there any non-football D2 schools on the east coast that would flirt with coming up to keep the shell alive?

Any future MEAC will no longer be an HBCU league—they’ll have to take whoever they can get.

Non-football schools won’t help them at this point. If they can’t add a sixth football school to be compliant, they’d have to figure out a way to sponsor two men’s team sports other than basketball with at least six full-time members. Lot easier to find that sixth football school.

Is there even the remotest chance that Coppin State or Maryland Eastern Shore could put together a football program? My guess it if they could have by now they would have. Would the MEAC or other schools help them with costs if that’s what it took to keep the conference alive? Is that even permissible?

Coppin has club football, but it seems like a stretch that they would make it a varsity sport

There were rumours that Kentucky State & Virginia State had looked at moving to division 1 and the MEAC.

KSU seems a long shot, but is Virginia State viable?

If New Haven isn't getting into the NEC, might they be an option for the MEAC?

New Haven
MercyHurst to MAAC if they get an invite, and football could be an affiliate.
UNC-Pembroke

I think there are more willing partners that would want to move up to get a foot into the door, and then leave for a better conference.

The MEAC is in big trouble. I really doubt a PWI is going to join them, especially since all of the “best” schools have or are leaving.

Who from the CIAA is interested in moving up and joining an unstable conference, without the best schools?

If the Big South pivoted and placed its FB member and affiliates in the MEAC for FB, with the understanding that if the champion is one of the MEAC schools who wants to play in the Celebration Bowl, then the next best school gets the playoff bid, then a league with Robert Morris, Bryant, Delaware State, Morgan State, Norfolk State, North Carolina Central, Campbell, Gardner-Webb, South Carolina State, and Charleston Southern could be an option instead of the Big South-OVC alliance/merger.

(04-16-2022 09:57 PM)Go College Sports Wrote:  How many teams does the CAA have now? Two dozen?

(04-18-2022 02:40 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(04-18-2022 10:25 AM)JMU2004 Wrote:  The only thing that seems to make sense to me is that the Northern members are preparing to split from the Southern members. I can't figure out how continuing to grow serves any real purpose after the additions SBU, Monmouth, and Hampton.

Disagree.

Maybe the latest additions will provide balance. Promoting conference stability by having more homogeneous groupings, that minimize outliers.

For example,
1) Simple North and South Divisions (North = Towson, Delaware, Drexel, Monmouth, Hofstra, SB and Northeastern; South = Howard, W&M, Hampton, Elon, NC A&T, UNCW and CoC). Creating a nice balance of 7 teams in each region.
2) Easier travel partners for scheduling non-revenue sports (CoC-UNCW, NCA&T-Elon, W&M-Hampton, Howard-Towson, Delaware-Drexel, Hofstra-SB and Monmouth-Northeastern). Helping to reduce costs although the conference spans a lot of states.
3) Six private schools (Elon-Hampton-Howard and Northeastern-Hofstra-Drexel) equally shared across the footprint.
4) Good academic profiles amongst programs (W&M-Elon-Howard and Northeastern-SB-Drexel-Delaware) also equally sprinkled throughout the footprint.
5) A welcoming cohort of HBCUs (Howard-Hampton-NCA&T) together in the South.
6) Two non-football programs (CoC & UNCW plus Drexel & Northeastern) in each region.
7) One must-have football-only team (Richmond plus Villanova) in each region.
8) One “regional” university in each division (Monmouth plus College of Charleston) to provide diversity to the Type A “national” universities.

It’s the melting pot approach. Similar to the creation of the US via admission of states (or even immigrants). The difference being that the new additions are closer to the geographic center, rather than the periphery, of the conference. The CAA is creating an identity, a unique brand.

Losing schools to the A-10 and Sun Belt has probably forced CAA leaders to rethink their mission in college athletics. The CAA needs a better brand image to keep the schools working together. They need to increase investments in college athletics, especially a couple of the HBCUs, and that’s difficult when the most successful programs are constantly seeking to leave the conference. Conference membership needs to provide value beyond just financial payouts (it’s a strategy that binds the Patriot and Ivy schools in their respective conferences).

This is one of the best posts I’ve read about the CAA situation. If you add Albany and maybe Campbell you could basically play two separate conference schedules. That’s where the separation talks would happen.

But at 14 the league is fine for now. For next year with 13 in basketball you could still do 18 league games, playing everyone in your division twice, the other division once. At 14 you would do 20 league games, play division twice, everybody else once, your travel partner twice.

CofC-NU (direct flights between CHS and Boston)
UNCW-Stony Brook
A&T-Hofstra
Elon-Monmouth
W&M-Drexel
Hampton-Delaware
Howard-Towson

The problem is the conference tourney. You have the DC arena but it hasn’t drawn that well in attendance. Adding the new schools, especially Howard and Hampton could change that.

(04-18-2022 11:28 PM)sctvman Wrote:  

(04-16-2022 09:57 PM)Go College Sports Wrote:  How many teams does the CAA have now? Two dozen?

(04-18-2022 02:40 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(04-18-2022 10:25 AM)JMU2004 Wrote:  The only thing that seems to make sense to me is that the Northern members are preparing to split from the Southern members. I can't figure out how continuing to grow serves any real purpose after the additions SBU, Monmouth, and Hampton.

Disagree.

Maybe the latest additions will provide balance. Promoting conference stability by having more homogeneous groupings, that minimize outliers.

For example,
1) Simple North and South Divisions (North = Towson, Delaware, Drexel, Monmouth, Hofstra, SB and Northeastern; South = Howard, W&M, Hampton, Elon, NC A&T, UNCW and CoC). Creating a nice balance of 7 teams in each region.
2) Easier travel partners for scheduling non-revenue sports (CoC-UNCW, NCA&T-Elon, W&M-Hampton, Howard-Towson, Delaware-Drexel, Hofstra-SB and Monmouth-Northeastern). Helping to reduce costs although the conference spans a lot of states.
3) Six private schools (Elon-Hampton-Howard and Northeastern-Hofstra-Drexel) equally shared across the footprint.
4) Good academic profiles amongst programs (W&M-Elon-Howard and Northeastern-SB-Drexel-Delaware) also equally sprinkled throughout the footprint.
5) A welcoming cohort of HBCUs (Howard-Hampton-NCA&T) together in the South.
6) Two non-football programs (CoC & UNCW plus Drexel & Northeastern) in each region.
7) One must-have football-only team (Richmond plus Villanova) in each region.
8) One “regional” university in each division (Monmouth plus College of Charleston) to provide diversity to the Type A “national” universities.

It’s the melting pot approach. Similar to the creation of the US via admission of states (or even immigrants). The difference being that the new additions are closer to the geographic center, rather than the periphery, of the conference. The CAA is creating an identity, a unique brand.

Losing schools to the A-10 and Sun Belt has probably forced CAA leaders to rethink their mission in college athletics. The CAA needs a better brand image to keep the schools working together. They need to increase investments in college athletics, especially a couple of the HBCUs, and that’s difficult when the most successful programs are constantly seeking to leave the conference. Conference membership needs to provide value beyond just financial payouts (it’s a strategy that binds the Patriot and Ivy schools in their respective conferences).

This is one of the best posts I’ve read about the CAA situation. If you add Albany and maybe Campbell you could basically play two separate conference schedules. That’s where the separation talks would happen.

But at 14 the league is fine for now. For next year with 13 in basketball you could still do 18 league games, playing everyone in your division twice, the other division once. At 14 you would do 20 league games, play division twice, everybody else once, your travel partner twice.

CofC-NU (direct flights between CHS and Boston)
UNCW-Stony Brook
A&T-Hofstra
Elon-Monmouth
W&M-Drexel
Hampton-Delaware
Howard-Towson

The problem is the conference tourney. You have the DC arena but it hasn’t drawn that well in attendance. Adding the new schools, especially Howard and Hampton could change that.

Agree that Howard opens DC for conference events. In an ideal world, the CAA wins if Howard basketball can transform into an attractive program.

With regards to the approach by the CAA if a school like Albany wants all-in…conference administrators can be more demanding and selective. The need to continually balance competing needs forces the CAA and Albany to do more diligence. IMO, VMI would also be an option for southern balance…the school desperately needs to modernize. A change in athletic association to a conference that values diversity could be a win-win. It reopens football rivalries with W&M and Richmond, while making The Citadel an OOC game.

(04-18-2022 03:59 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(04-18-2022 03:34 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  The CIAA well has already been pumped and came up dry.

Are there any non-football D2 schools on the east coast that would flirt with coming up to keep the shell alive?

Any future MEAC will no longer be an HBCU league—they’ll have to take whoever they can get.

Non-football schools won’t help them at this point. If they can’t add a sixth football school to be compliant, they’d have to figure out a way to sponsor two men’s team sports other than basketball with at least six full-time members. Lot easier to find that sixth football school.

Is there even the remotest chance that Coppin State or Maryland Eastern Shore could put together a football program? My guess it if they could have by now they would have. Would the MEAC or other schools help them with costs if that’s what it took to keep the conference alive? Is that even permissible?

If there’s no takers for football, if you’re going to survive, you’ve got to go hunting for basketball schools with 3 men’s team sports.

The reality is, once Howard announces you will see every remaining MEAC school scrambling for life boats. I predict at a minimum three (3) more will announce new homes in 2023 by this fall.

(04-19-2022 01:03 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(04-18-2022 03:59 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(04-18-2022 03:34 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  The CIAA well has already been pumped and came up dry.

Are there any non-football D2 schools on the east coast that would flirt with coming up to keep the shell alive?

Any future MEAC will no longer be an HBCU league—they’ll have to take whoever they can get.

Non-football schools won’t help them at this point. If they can’t add a sixth football school to be compliant, they’d have to figure out a way to sponsor two men’s team sports other than basketball with at least six full-time members. Lot easier to find that sixth football school.

Is there even the remotest chance that Coppin State or Maryland Eastern Shore could put together a football program? My guess it if they could have by now they would have. Would the MEAC or other schools help them with costs if that’s what it took to keep the conference alive? Is that even permissible?

If there’s no takers for football, if you’re going to survive, you’ve got to go hunting for basketball schools with 3 men’s team sports.

They would need two baseball schools (difficult but not impossible) AND up to six schools that play another team sport, depending on if any current members can add it (effectively impossible).

Quickest way in theory is that sixth football school but unless Virginia State changes its mind or Chicago State has a viable path to add football, I’m not seeing it.

They could have everyone launch a men’s volleyball program. There are quite a number of D2 schools in the SE that sponsor the sport for men. There is no D2 championship in the NCAA so they are all competing on the D1 level.

Just a thought for a way to get into compliance by sponsoring a sport that wouldn’t be that expensive to start.