(10-13-2021 05:40 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 04:55 PM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 04:19 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 03:02 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 02:54 PM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  True there's more to it than just that, but like you said all the issues that make it arguably impossible to win at Rice are self imposed.

Well if Stanford can win, Rice can win.

Stanford’s enrollment is considerably larger but I get the point, Rice could fund a competitive program but chooses not to.

Honestly, I kind of don’t blame them—it’s not like the Houston market is suddenly going to convert to Rice fans with a few great seasons.

Maybe some of these urban academic citadels would be better served being beasts in D3 or forming a Patriot/Ivy style FCS conference.

The problem with an Ivy or D3 strategy is the distances down here. Even 'close' teams like Tulane are further away than the span of the Ivy League or typical D3 conference.

There’s a D3 conference of all AAU schools that has a giant footprint. This would be a similar idea

You're talking about the University Athletic Association. Oddly enough, the conference only sponsors football in-name-only.

Only 5 of the 8 members sponsor football, and they don't play a full round robin.

(10-13-2021 05:53 PM)CoastalJuan Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 04:19 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 03:02 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 02:54 PM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 02:37 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  QFT, though, culturally, Rice would also have to challenge its recruiting practices and maybe try for kids it may have previously passed on, too. It’s a bigger lift for the school than it appears, but, yeah, Rice itself put that on its own back.

True there's more to it than just that, but like you said all the issues that make it arguably impossible to win at Rice are self imposed.

Well if Stanford can win, Rice can win.

Stanford’s enrollment is considerably larger but I get the point, Rice could fund a competitive program but chooses not to.

Honestly, I kind of don’t blame them—it’s not like the Houston market is suddenly going to convert to Rice fans with a few great seasons.

Maybe some of these urban academic citadels would be better served being beasts in D3 or forming a Patriot/Ivy style FCS conference.

You don't think so? Texans are terrible. If the cougars keep being terrible at football in the Big 12, and the rockets have a bad season, a 10-win Rice would be a hot ticket.

Look at Miami. They are another small private(lol) with a terrible pro football franchise in town. (and if any of you are old enough to be Dan Marino fans, shoosh)

Houston is a football town, but more importantly, it's a pro town. The Texans stink, and have been bad more than they've been good. But they are supported and loved. Houstonians know what it is like to lose an NFL team, and they're attached to this one for better or worse. The Astros are loved right now because they win. The Rockets are loved when they win, as well.

Rice falls on the ladder below the pro teams and behind U of H. U of H does well to fill their 40,000 seat stadium when they are good. And they're the public school with thousands of alums. Rice is competing with U of H, UT, A&M, and others for fans.

I can see the mindset of Rice's administration. They don't need to invest in their athletic program to attract students or to raise money. They have no issue with either of those things: recruiting students and raising money. In their mind, why should they bother to invest in athletics if they don't need or can't achieve the return on investment? Neither the stakeholders of Rice nor the general public are demanding (in large numbers) quality athletics from their school. It's just a really, really good school down on South Main that most people can't dream of attending or affording.

Miami struggled with attendance even in their glory days. They would fill up the Orange Bowl when Notre Dame or Florida State came to town, but would struggle to fill it when playing more pedestrian opponents. Those issues have magnified with the move to the Dolphins' stadium. The difference between Miami and Rice, though, is that Miami captured the hearts of the general public, even if it didn't always translate to attendance. If a school in Houston generates interest from the general public, it is U of H.

Rice is between a rock and a hard place. They can't go D-III, but they can't justify playing on the level of the SEC. As mentioned earlier, their best bet is to try to get back with SMU and Tulane.

(10-13-2021 05:53 PM)CoastalJuan Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 04:19 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 03:02 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 02:54 PM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 02:37 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  QFT, though, culturally, Rice would also have to challenge its recruiting practices and maybe try for kids it may have previously passed on, too. It’s a bigger lift for the school than it appears, but, yeah, Rice itself put that on its own back.

True there's more to it than just that, but like you said all the issues that make it arguably impossible to win at Rice are self imposed.

Well if Stanford can win, Rice can win.

Stanford’s enrollment is considerably larger but I get the point, Rice could fund a competitive program but chooses not to.

Honestly, I kind of don’t blame them—it’s not like the Houston market is suddenly going to convert to Rice fans with a few great seasons.

Maybe some of these urban academic citadels would be better served being beasts in D3 or forming a Patriot/Ivy style FCS conference.

You don't think so? Texans are terrible. If the cougars keep being terrible at football in the Big 12, and the rockets have a bad season, a 10-win Rice would be a hot ticket.

Look at Miami. They are another small private(lol) with a terrible pro football franchise in town. (and if any of you are old enough to be Dan Marino fans, shoosh)

I have to give it to you for the optimism, but any person who is familiar with Rice will tell you, it'll take some time. I think Tulsa and Tulane will be closer to what you'll get vs something like Stanford or Northwestern. I think baseball will turn it around, and you'll get a pretty good rival to ECU...lol.

Perhaps Rice is playing a longer game than some folks realize.

Perhaps they want to keep auditioning for any future Magnolia or Southern Ivy League football conference.

On a scale of selectiveness in admissions and then endowment you have:

Duke 5.7% $12.17 B
Vandy 6.7% $11.6 B
NW 6.8% $14.0 B
Rice 8.7% $6.2 B
Tulane 13% $1.45 B
ND 14.5% $12.0 B
GT 18.8% $2.17 B
WF 24% $1.35 B
Villanova 25% $.8 B
Miami 28% $1.05 B

At some point in the next 50 years, I'm not sure I see them all playing football in the current set ups.

(10-13-2021 07:56 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  I do not favor AAC backfill from Texas. But if you told me we had to add one Texas school, I would prefer it to be Rice.

This. Exactly this.

(10-13-2021 07:51 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  So Rice badly wants out of CUSA.

Who doesn't?

And he's right about their academics and endowment. Unfortunately, while that counts for something, it doesn't count for as much as, say, a winning football team.

This, too.

The old SWC officially ended on June 30, 1996. The announcement had been made in February 1994. So, any way that you slice it, Rice has had 25+ years to adjust to the post-SWC reality, and make whatever improvements they could, to try and be ready for the next round(s) of realignment.

Honest question: what have they done?

(10-13-2021 06:36 PM)ShadyGrove Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 05:53 PM)CoastalJuan Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 04:19 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 03:02 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 02:54 PM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  True there's more to it than just that, but like you said all the issues that make it arguably impossible to win at Rice are self imposed.

Well if Stanford can win, Rice can win.

Stanford’s enrollment is considerably larger but I get the point, Rice could fund a competitive program but chooses not to.

Honestly, I kind of don’t blame them—it’s not like the Houston market is suddenly going to convert to Rice fans with a few great seasons.

Maybe some of these urban academic citadels would be better served being beasts in D3 or forming a Patriot/Ivy style FCS conference.

You don't think so? Texans are terrible. If the cougars keep being terrible at football in the Big 12, and the rockets have a bad season, a 10-win Rice would be a hot ticket.

Look at Miami. They are another small private(lol) with a terrible pro football franchise in town. (and if any of you are old enough to be Dan Marino fans, shoosh)

I have to give it to you for the optimism, but any person who is familiar with Rice will tell you, it'll take some time. I think Tulsa and Tulane will be closer to what you'll get vs something like Stanford or Northwestern. I think baseball will turn it around, and you'll get a pretty good rival to ECU...lol.

The three teams leaving the AAC spent roughly $10m more per year than the rest of the conference. Texas and OU spend roughly $60m more than the rest of the Big 12. Check the finances. With few exceptions, the teams that spend the most are generally in the top half of their leagues in football performance/consistency. Performance quite literally has a price.

If Rice started spending $60m on athletics today (high end AAC budget), they'd win the CUSA championship the majority of the next 10 years, and could potentially be competitive in the AAC.

(10-13-2021 12:36 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 12:01 PM)DawgNBama Wrote:  Why not Rice to the Big East?? As for Rice not being Catholic, Butler is not Catholic, but they are a member. And Rice has better academic credentials than Butler.

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

I know this is meant as a joke from someone who thinks Rice shouldn't be considered for "promotion" due to on-field and -court results, but there are good reasons for them to be considered by both the AAC and MW.

No, it's not a joke. I'm actually dead serious.

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

(10-13-2021 10:07 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 08:02 AM)RUScarlets Wrote:  I say 19 team MWC:

East: Tulsa, Navy/WSU, SMU, Tulane, Rice, AFA, CSU, UNM, Wyoming

West: BSU, USU, UNLV, FSU, Nevada, SJSU, SDSU, Hawaii/Zaga

Keep a spot open for BYU if the Big 12 is weakened by P4 poaching

How does the inter-division scheduling work when one division needs eight inter-division and the other has zero inter-division games to offer?

(10-13-2021 07:56 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  I do not favor AAC backfill from Texas. But if you told me we had to add one Texas school, I would prefer it to be Rice.

A central question is whether Tulsa, Tulane and, especially Navy want a game in Texas every year. (Of course, in RUScarlet's impossible MWC alignment, that is sorted out for Navy and Tulane).

I’m projecting USF Memphis in the Big 12 and Navy leaving. If that happens, the scenario can open up for the MWC. More than likely they only add Tulsa/SMU, but if they wanted 16, you can flirt with Navy football and WSU. The 16th could be Rice/Tulane/UTSA.

But let’s say they go all the way to 9+8 (plus two Bball), you would have 1 inter division game annually plus the CCG. The 9 team East division could skip an opponent every year. But if the MWC go into Texas I think SMU will be one of the schools, should the Mustangs want to leave a weakened AAC.

All the confusion is solved in Navy is not in the cards though, then you just have 8+8 football, with possibly getting Zags/BYU BBall way down the line for an 18 team BBall conference. Navy is not essential and are more likely to go Indy.

I don’t know whether a MWC or AAC invite would prompt Rice to move without hesitation, and it sounds like between the two, AAC has an edge based on the compared schools, but, I do wonder if there is big concerns committing to MWC when four schools are practically on the verge of leaving it, but just want to be sure they’re on the right side of any future moves. It has seemed like Rice leaned more west over the last few years with the MWC and Big XII approaches…has the MWC come and gone for them? Or, yeah, first one to ask gets them?

(10-13-2021 04:19 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 03:02 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 02:54 PM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 02:37 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 02:16 PM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  Unlike UTSA or sadly even ECU Rice if they just decided they wanted to do it could go drop huge money to hire insert your massive name coach with baggage. They could go pay Rick Pitino or Greg Marshall 3 million a year to come coach at Rice, and Rice would instantly be nationally relevant. The only thing stopping Rice from doing something like that is Rice themselves.

QFT, though, culturally, Rice would also have to challenge its recruiting practices and maybe try for kids it may have previously passed on, too. It’s a bigger lift for the school than it appears, but, yeah, Rice itself put that on its own back.

True there's more to it than just that, but like you said all the issues that make it arguably impossible to win at Rice are self imposed.

Well if Stanford can win, Rice can win.

Stanford’s enrollment is considerably larger but I get the point, Rice could fund a competitive program but chooses not to.

Honestly, I kind of don’t blame them—it’s not like the Houston market is suddenly going to convert to Rice fans with a few great seasons.

Maybe some of these urban academic citadels would be better served being beasts in D3 or forming a Patriot/Ivy style FCS conference.

I don’t think it’s about controlling eyes in the Houston area. It’s just a stance on enrollment standards. Could all the athletes who play at places like Stanford, USC, Duke, Northwestern, or Vandy get in without sports? Maybe to probably not. Rice seems different and more resistant. Kinda like a FBS Patriot League school. No reason Rice couldn’t loosen up…they don’t seem to want to.

(10-14-2021 06:57 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 04:19 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 03:02 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 02:54 PM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 02:37 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  QFT, though, culturally, Rice would also have to challenge its recruiting practices and maybe try for kids it may have previously passed on, too. It’s a bigger lift for the school than it appears, but, yeah, Rice itself put that on its own back.

True there's more to it than just that, but like you said all the issues that make it arguably impossible to win at Rice are self imposed.

Well if Stanford can win, Rice can win.

Stanford’s enrollment is considerably larger but I get the point, Rice could fund a competitive program but chooses not to.

Honestly, I kind of don’t blame them—it’s not like the Houston market is suddenly going to convert to Rice fans with a few great seasons.

Maybe some of these urban academic citadels would be better served being beasts in D3 or forming a Patriot/Ivy style FCS conference.

I don’t think it’s about controlling eyes in the Houston area. It’s just a stance on enrollment standards. Could all the athletes who play at places like Stanford, USC, Duke, Northwestern, or Vandy get in without sports? Maybe to probably not. Rice seems different and more resistant. Kinda like a FBS Patriot League school. No reason Rice couldn’t loosen up…they don’t seem to want to.

Absolutely correct! They don't want to..There BOR makes the selection just UH does and having a President committed to athletic's is just not tht important to them as UH is. They'll pay the cursory speak of it being so but the facts show otherwise. Can you imagine that they use to fill that 70k plus stadium at one time (pre-NFL) in the distant past? Oh my! How things have changed

(10-13-2021 06:51 AM)shizzle787 Wrote:  Rice to the AAC with UAB.

...yep - also add FAU, and keep Temple, then we will have ALL the hooters in one conference!

(10-13-2021 06:20 PM)johnintx Wrote:  I can see the mindset of Rice's administration. They don't need to invest in their athletic program to attract students or to raise money. They have no issue with either of those things: recruiting students and raising money. In their mind, why should they bother to invest in athletics if they don't need or can't achieve the return on investment? Neither the stakeholders of Rice nor the general public are demanding (in large numbers) quality athletics from their school. It's just a really, really good school down on South Main that most people can't dream of attending or affording.

This is why I'd not be surprised for Rice to be announced and then for it to come out sometime that they made a commitment to increase their commitment to MBB. Even with their growth in enrollment, they are a quite small school, and it's easier for a school their size to invest toward filling up a "right-sized" MBB arena than toward filling up a FB stadium.

Quote: Rice is between a rock and a hard place. They can't go D-III, but they can't justify playing on the level of the SEC. As mentioned earlier, their best bet is to try to get back with SMU and Tulane.

... which would be why they might consider accepting a requirement to make a serious increase in their commitment to MBB (possibly paired with a fig-leaf increase in their commitment to FB).

(10-13-2021 08:39 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 07:51 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  So Rice badly wants out of CUSA.

Who doesn't?

And he's right about their academics and endowment. Unfortunately, while that counts for something, it doesn't count for as much as, say, a winning football team.

This, too.

The old SWC officially ended on June 30, 1996. The announcement had been made in February 1994. So, any way that you slice it, Rice has had 25+ years to adjust to the post-SWC reality, and make whatever improvements they could, to try and be ready for the next round(s) of realignment.

Honest question: what have they done?

State of the art baseball facility, new basketball facility, significant renovations of one of the best boned (if not the best) stadiums in college football. They have become a national power in baseball. Women's sports have gone from virtually non-existent to pretty successful. They hadn't been to a bowl since 1961 but have been to 5 in the last 15 years. They have a CUSA title and a couple of division titles.

(10-13-2021 07:37 AM)ESE84 Wrote:  I hope the naysayers click the link. Rice has had plenty of recent athletic success but not in football, where it would be the most visible. (Hey, Rice had a 20-0 win over #15 Marshall just last year, and then the Rice men sent Marshall home from the C-USA basketball tournament.). WKU fans might challenge his statement that Rice has won more C-USA 3.0 championships than any other school and has the best overall athletic program in C-USA. But women’s NIT championships aren’t often mentioned in realignment decisions.

I think it safe to say Rice prefers to align with Tulane, SMU, Tulsa and Navy.

Nobody gives a crap about anything beyond football and men's basketball. Sorry but it's just the truth. I'm sure it hurts.

(10-13-2021 10:34 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 10:25 AM)Bogg Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 10:15 AM)MinerInWisconsin Wrote:  Wouldn't the Rice AD already be aware of interest from the AAC? So is he saying these things to advertise Rice's interest in firming up those interests or is he worried that the AAC is passing on Rice? Is he also saying that the MWC isn't of interest to Rice?

My guess is he knows (as does everyone) that CUSA is going to have some defections, that he's had some discussions with both the AAC and MW, and that while Rice isn't necessarily a shoe-in for either conference collectively the odds of an invite to one is at least 50/50, maybe better. Don't underestimate the value of Houston-area recruiting.

I agree. The location of Houston in and of itself seems be getting underrated in a lot of these realignment discussions. That might be the single best metro area that you want to be located in for football recruiting purposes.

Plus, I always see references to the "potential" of School A or School B, yet it's almost as if though they're forgetting where REAL potential lies: an elite academic school that has super-wealthy alums and a massive endowment that's directly located in arguably the best football recruiting region in the country. THAT is potential. Now, whether they could ever achieve that potential is rightly questioned, but the point is that a good Rice football program is, without question to me, much more valuable than any other prospective AAC candidate that isn't in the MWC.

The smart thing in conference realignment is to not get caught up when a candidate is riding on a high or, alternatively, at a historical low point. You need to have the clairvoyance to understand what value a school brings when they're 6-6 or 0-12 as opposed to what they're worth when they're 10-2 (as those seasons are rare for anyone other than a very small handful of schools).

You STILL haven't detailed what Rice brings if they're 0-12. I understand why b/c it's an absurd argument. Their elite academics haven't done a damned thing for Rice when it comes to realignment or their athletic programs. They've been left for dead by multiple conferences starting with the SWC. Rice's elite academics and endowment are not going to help the AAC get a contract bowl or a better tv deal or be included in a potential P5 split from the NCAA.

(10-14-2021 01:19 PM)b2b Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 10:34 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 10:25 AM)Bogg Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 10:15 AM)MinerInWisconsin Wrote:  Wouldn't the Rice AD already be aware of interest from the AAC? So is he saying these things to advertise Rice's interest in firming up those interests or is he worried that the AAC is passing on Rice? Is he also saying that the MWC isn't of interest to Rice?

My guess is he knows (as does everyone) that CUSA is going to have some defections, that he's had some discussions with both the AAC and MW, and that while Rice isn't necessarily a shoe-in for either conference collectively the odds of an invite to one is at least 50/50, maybe better. Don't underestimate the value of Houston-area recruiting.

I agree. The location of Houston in and of itself seems be getting underrated in a lot of these realignment discussions. That might be the single best metro area that you want to be located in for football recruiting purposes.

Plus, I always see references to the "potential" of School A or School B, yet it's almost as if though they're forgetting where REAL potential lies: an elite academic school that has super-wealthy alums and a massive endowment that's directly located in arguably the best football recruiting region in the country. THAT is potential. Now, whether they could ever achieve that potential is rightly questioned, but the point is that a good Rice football program is, without question to me, much more valuable than any other prospective AAC candidate that isn't in the MWC.

The smart thing in conference realignment is to not get caught up when a candidate is riding on a high or, alternatively, at a historical low point. You need to have the clairvoyance to understand what value a school brings when they're 6-6 or 0-12 as opposed to what they're worth when they're 10-2 (as those seasons are rare for anyone other than a very small handful of schools).

You STILL haven't detailed what Rice brings if they're 0-12. I understand why b/c it's an absurd argument. Their elite academics haven't done a damned thing for Rice when it comes to realignment or their athletic programs. They've been left for dead by multiple conferences starting with the SWC. Rice's elite academics and endowment are not going to help the AAC get a contract bowl or a better tv deal or be included in a potential P5 split from the NCAA.

They’re a school that’s in the conference’s flagship state and they directly replace a vacating huge metro market. There are a bunch of regional conference programs nearby with long athletic histories in SMU, Tulane, and Tulsa.

Fun fact: Rice has more double digit winning seasons than ECU this century.

(10-14-2021 06:17 AM)RUScarlets Wrote:  But let’s say they go all the way to 9+8 (plus two Bball), you would have 1 inter division game annually plus the CCG. The 9 team East division could skip an opponent every year. ...

Well, not literally, since an odd number of schools cannot "skip an opponent" ... team A skipping team B means team B skips team A, so "skipping an opponent" goes two by two.

Which raises the question of why they would go for 17 team conference at all. It's not like prizes are handed out for achieving the largest number of schools in the conference.

(10-14-2021 09:34 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(10-14-2021 01:19 PM)b2b Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 10:34 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 10:25 AM)Bogg Wrote:  

(10-13-2021 10:15 AM)MinerInWisconsin Wrote:  Wouldn't the Rice AD already be aware of interest from the AAC? So is he saying these things to advertise Rice's interest in firming up those interests or is he worried that the AAC is passing on Rice? Is he also saying that the MWC isn't of interest to Rice?

My guess is he knows (as does everyone) that CUSA is going to have some defections, that he's had some discussions with both the AAC and MW, and that while Rice isn't necessarily a shoe-in for either conference collectively the odds of an invite to one is at least 50/50, maybe better. Don't underestimate the value of Houston-area recruiting.

I agree. The location of Houston in and of itself seems be getting underrated in a lot of these realignment discussions. That might be the single best metro area that you want to be located in for football recruiting purposes.

Plus, I always see references to the "potential" of School A or School B, yet it's almost as if though they're forgetting where REAL potential lies: an elite academic school that has super-wealthy alums and a massive endowment that's directly located in arguably the best football recruiting region in the country. THAT is potential. Now, whether they could ever achieve that potential is rightly questioned, but the point is that a good Rice football program is, without question to me, much more valuable than any other prospective AAC candidate that isn't in the MWC.

The smart thing in conference realignment is to not get caught up when a candidate is riding on a high or, alternatively, at a historical low point. You need to have the clairvoyance to understand what value a school brings when they're 6-6 or 0-12 as opposed to what they're worth when they're 10-2 (as those seasons are rare for anyone other than a very small handful of schools).

You STILL haven't detailed what Rice brings if they're 0-12. I understand why b/c it's an absurd argument. Their elite academics haven't done a damned thing for Rice when it comes to realignment or their athletic programs. They've been left for dead by multiple conferences starting with the SWC. Rice's elite academics and endowment are not going to help the AAC get a contract bowl or a better tv deal or be included in a potential P5 split from the NCAA.

They’re a school that’s in the conference’s flagship state and they directly replace a vacating huge metro market. There are a bunch of regional conference programs nearby with long athletic histories in SMU, Tulane, and Tulsa.

Fun fact: Rice has more double digit winning seasons than ECU this century.

Fun fact: Rice has more double digit winning seasons than UNC-Chapel Hill this century.

FWIW, I’m completely on board with Rice. I wish UAB and Rice could go ahead and be announced while they deliberate on whether/how to go further.