(09-23-2020 10:24 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  WVU gets my vote on the grounds that they should have been a co-founder back in 1953.

Just because Navy can not compete in basketball why do people assume that the ACC would freeze out their other Olympic Athletes.

Before the last realignment, I would have said UConn. Their basketball was top of the line and their football was serviceable. They are a flagship state school located between New York and Boston. But, external politics (the state lawsuit against the ACC) and internal conference politics (the supposed BC veto) got in the way. So, their basketball slid into mediocrity after a NC in their first year in the AAC, while their football program fell into a bottomless pit. They have re-prioritized basketball with their move to the Big East and football independence.

In a perfect world, West Virginia ought to be the addition. It has proximity to and history with the former Big East schools, is not far from the Carolina schools, and has a pretty decent program. They've taken a hit traveling to the Big 12, but they're still competitive and would be a good addition. But, they have a slightly different mission as the flagship school of West Virginia, and are not an exclusive institution. Plus, there are charges of bad fan behavior that rub some ACC schools the wrong way. It would take a lot for them to get the needed votes.

Which leads to my vote: Cincinnati. If Louisville is P5, Cincinnati should be, also. As mentioned above, they don't lead in any of the categories that would be used to evaluate candidates, but would rank consistently high enough in the aggregate to get the nod. They haven't burned any political bridges. It also adds a new market, a new state, and proximity to Louisville, Notre Dame, and Pittsburgh.

(09-23-2020 12:15 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Just because Navy can not compete in basketball why do people assume that the ACC would freeze out their other Olympic Athletes.

I think it's more that Navy would not want to join for other sports.

Remember that Air Force turned down an all sports offer to the Big 12.

(09-23-2020 12:15 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Just because Navy can not compete in basketball why do people assume that the ACC would freeze out their other Olympic Athletes.

See now, I wonder if it's an assumption that they wouldn't want to abandon Army in their current conference more than not add them, though I certainly could be wrong.

(09-23-2020 10:43 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(09-23-2020 10:24 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  WVU gets my vote on the grounds that they should have been a co-founder back in 1953.

Not really.

VT and WVU were left behind in the SoCon because they were part of the reason the ACC schools split. They tended to vote with the Washington & Lee/ Bill & Mary/Richmond small school block. The schools that left the SoCon in 1953 left because of the limited vision of the small school block so it wouldn't make much sense in bringing it with them.

As I understand things, UNC came around to Maryland/Clemson/SC’s line of thinking regarding level of competition and bowl participation and they collectively made a decision to exit and all of UNC’s friends got to come along too.

Had VT and WVU been smarter, they should have made it a point to vote with the big schools so they would have been included in the breakaway.

In some ways, I think the group that founded the ACC shot themselves in the foot after the SEC schools exited the SoCon—they added a bunch of schools and then all off the new adds but WF were in the group that got dumped 30 yrs later. It was an unnecessary expansion that held them back in a lot of regards.

(09-23-2020 01:21 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(09-23-2020 10:43 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(09-23-2020 10:24 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  WVU gets my vote on the grounds that they should have been a co-founder back in 1953.

Not really.

VT and WVU were left behind in the SoCon because they were part of the reason the ACC schools split. They tended to vote with the Washington & Lee/ Bill & Mary/Richmond small school block. The schools that left the SoCon in 1953 left because of the limited vision of the small school block so it wouldn't make much sense in bringing it with them.

As I understand things, UNC came around to Maryland/Clemson/SC’s line of thinking regarding level of competition and bowl participation and they collectively made a decision to exit and all of UNC’s friends got to come along too.

Had VT and WVU been smarter, they should have made it a point to vote with the big schools so they would have been included in the breakaway.

Pretty much. There's a reason why when the SoCon suspended Clemson & Maryland in 1952 for playing in a bowl game and forbid SoCon schools from playing either program that year that the SC legislature mandated that Clemson and South Carolina, two of the three SC publics in the SoCon, play and not included The Citadel, the third SC public.


WVU and VT voted with the small schools at that time because they more closely associated with them in the early 1950's.

(09-23-2020 02:28 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(09-23-2020 01:21 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(09-23-2020 10:43 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(09-23-2020 10:24 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  WVU gets my vote on the grounds that they should have been a co-founder back in 1953.

Not really.

VT and WVU were left behind in the SoCon because they were part of the reason the ACC schools split. They tended to vote with the Washington & Lee/ Bill & Mary/Richmond small school block. The schools that left the SoCon in 1953 left because of the limited vision of the small school block so it wouldn't make much sense in bringing it with them.

As I understand things, UNC came around to Maryland/Clemson/SC’s line of thinking regarding level of competition and bowl participation and they collectively made a decision to exit and all of UNC’s friends got to come along too.

Had VT and WVU been smarter, they should have made it a point to vote with the big schools so they would have been included in the breakaway.

Pretty much. There's a reason why when the SoCon suspended Clemson & Maryland in 1952 for playing in a bowl game and forbid SoCon schools from playing either program that year that the SC legislature mandated that Clemson and South Carolina, two of the three SC publics in the SoCon, play and not included The Citadel, the third SC public.


WVU and VT voted with the small schools at that time because they more closely associated with them in the early 1950's.

Had UNC not come around to the idea of bowl games I wonder if Clemson and SC would have gone independent or joined the SEC—that would have been a real game changer. Maryland goes independent too and becomes more closely associated with Penn St and the independents of the Northeast.

Then the question arises: How long does UNC/NC St/VT/WVU stay in the SoCon after that?

(09-23-2020 09:31 AM)ken d Wrote:  This is a question that IMO can only be answered after resolving two major unknowns: will Notre Dame remain independent in football post-COVID, and will the NCAA eliminate the requirement for balanced divisions in football.

If the answer to both of these questions is yes (and I believe it would be), then I believe it is a three-way race among Cincinnati, West Virginia and UCF. Each has its strong points and weaknesses.

UCF has great potential in football. Not so much in Olympic sports. If it continues on its current trajectory, it will reach a respectable football attendance and media attractiveness. And, it gives the ACC a more dominant position in the fertile recruiting ground of Florida, while giving the northern schools more frequent opportunities to play in that recruiting ground. It is not yet considered an academic peer by most of the league, but that may be less important in the future than it has been in the past.

West Virginia would bring strength in both football and basketball, and a long history with the northern schools while probably being acceptable to the southern schools from an athletic standpoint. Academics would be problematic, as their mission is more geared to serving all West Virginia students than it is to excel in research.

Cincinnati is a good choice for all the criteria the ACC would likely use, even if they aren't necessarily the best of the three in any one sport. On the academic front they fit the ACC profile the best (of these three schools, excluding the others listed in the poll). Because they have the fewest reasons for any current ACC members to vote against them, I think they would be most likely to get the nod.

But if the answer to either of those questions is no, I would probably go in a different direction. If the P5 continues to vote to require football divisions, I would not add just one school to get to your 16 team premise unless Notre Dame goes all in. In that case, I would probably want to add Navy for football only. But I'm not sure they would accept the invitation.

UCF's athletics across the board have been doing very well, I believe we had the most ranked programs of everyone last year or the year before. Our football attendance is maxed out, looking to expand the stadium to 65,000. The ACC adding UCF would give them dominance over the Florida market & recruits. Academically we've been on the rise and are continuing to close the gap, I believe we're ahead of Louisville & WV and close to Cincy. One of the metrics for that is endowment and UCF's is artificially low currently because we're continuing to build and expand programs like our med school and downtown campus.

Miami has no drivable games in the ACC, FSU is almost 500 miles and 7.5 hours away. Going to a pod system every team in the conference would play IN Florida 3 of every 4 years. It also allows you to play a full conference slate in 4 years instead of 6 with the current setup, emphasizes regional rivalries and provides maximum conference exposure.

Southern Pod = FSU, Miami, GT, UCF
Mid Atlantic Pod = Clemson, Virginia, VT, Louisville
Tobacco Row Pod =Duke, UNC, NC State, WF
Northern Pod = Notre Dame, Pitt, BC, Syracuse

Play 9 conference games, the 3 others from your pod and 2 from each of the others on a ticker scheduling format.
Team 1 home, team 2 away.
Team 2 home, team 3 away.
Team 3 home, team 4 away.
Team 4 home, team 1 away.

The two pod winners with the best records play in the CCG.

(09-23-2020 12:50 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  

(09-23-2020 12:15 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Just because Navy can not compete in basketball why do people assume that the ACC would freeze out their other Olympic Athletes.

I think it's more that Navy would not want to join for other sports.

Remember that Air Force turned down an all sports offer to the Big 12.

The bolded words have been somewhat overplayed in this and other venues.

Then-AF AD Mueh started with "We were approached by the Big 12 and I told them we're not a good fit for that conference." There's a bit of a divide between approached and offered.

ESPN's Big12 beat reporter blogged "I doubt it ever would have progressed to the point of an offer."

Here's the contemporaneous reporting:
https://www.espn.com/blog/big12/post/_/i...oWrG6w4Pqn

And as long as I'm here...

Navy would probably take a football-only ACC offer the same way we took a football-only offer from then BCS-Auto-Qualifier Big East in 2011-12.

We like the Patriot League. Exactly the right level of competition for everything other than football: even if we don't win the league in MBB/WBB very much lately (WBB had a couple years of regular season champs going to the WNIT; bouncing back now with a new coach), we've won several Presidents' Cups in a row. We like the institutional fits - not just Army West Point but the imitation-Ivy nature of the rest. Nice geographic footprint keeps down costs for PL sports (nice, since we have 33 varsity intercollegiate sports and a number of high level clubs that the NAAA also supports)

(09-23-2020 09:31 AM)ken d Wrote:  This is a question that IMO can only be answered after resolving two major unknowns: will Notre Dame remain independent in football post-COVID, and will the NCAA eliminate the requirement for balanced divisions in football.

Let's say Notre Dame stays independent in football and the NCAA doesn't eliminate the divisions requirement (the requirement isn't for balanced divisions as the MAC had seven and six team divisions before). Because of Notre Dame, the ACC will always have either an odd number of teams in football...

Unless it adds another Notre Dame, another "all but football member". Then the ACC would have 16 members in men's/women's basketball but still have 14 football members. UConn was mentioned. The ACC can get the good UConn teams, especially their women's basketball team, but not their football team.

Another possibility I've campaigned for before is Villanova. Unlike UConn who hasn't been good in men's basketball in several years, Villanova is awesome now. Villanova would also give the ACC a presence in Philly and the Big East would no longer be considered a "Power" conference in men's basketball.

https://www.tarheelblog.com/2019/2/23/18...all-member

Adding Navy as a football only member helps nothing unless Notre Dame comes aboard full time. You then have 15 in football and men's basketball which is ideal for neither sport.

(09-23-2020 03:11 PM)schmolik Wrote:  

(09-23-2020 09:31 AM)ken d Wrote:  This is a question that IMO can only be answered after resolving two major unknowns: will Notre Dame remain independent in football post-COVID, and will the NCAA eliminate the requirement for balanced divisions in football.

Let's say Notre Dame stays independent in football and the NCAA doesn't eliminate the divisions requirement (the requirement isn't for balanced divisions as the MAC had seven and six team divisions before). Because of Notre Dame, the ACC will always have either an odd number of teams in football...

Unless it adds another Notre Dame, another "all but football member". Then the ACC would have 16 members in men's/women's basketball but still have 14 football members. UConn was mentioned. The ACC can get the good UConn teams, especially their women's basketball team, but not their football team.

Another possibility I've campaigned for before is Villanova. Unlike UConn who hasn't been good in men's basketball in several years, Villanova is awesome now. Villanova would also give the ACC a presence in Philly and the Big East would no longer be considered a "Power" conference in men's basketball.

https://www.tarheelblog.com/2019/2/23/18...all-member

Adding Navy as a football only member helps nothing unless Notre Dame comes aboard full time. You then have 15 in football and men's basketball which is ideal for neither sport.

That's right. If the status quo (pre-COVID) prevails, I don't expect the ACC to do anything.

(09-23-2020 03:11 PM)schmolik Wrote:  

(09-23-2020 09:31 AM)ken d Wrote:  This is a question that IMO can only be answered after resolving two major unknowns: will Notre Dame remain independent in football post-COVID, and will the NCAA eliminate the requirement for balanced divisions in football.

Let's say Notre Dame stays independent in football and the NCAA doesn't eliminate the divisions requirement (the requirement isn't for balanced divisions as the MAC had seven and six team divisions before). Because of Notre Dame, the ACC will always have either an odd number of teams in football...

Unless it adds another Notre Dame, another "all but football member". Then the ACC would have 16 members in men's/women's basketball but still have 14 football members. UConn was mentioned. The ACC can get the good UConn teams, especially their women's basketball team, but not their football team.

Another possibility I've campaigned for before is Villanova. Unlike UConn who hasn't been good in men's basketball in several years, Villanova is awesome now. Villanova would also give the ACC a presence in Philly and the Big East would no longer be considered a "Power" conference in men's basketball.

https://www.tarheelblog.com/2019/2/23/18...all-member

Adding Navy as a football only member helps nothing unless Notre Dame comes aboard full time. You then have 15 in football and men's basketball which is ideal for neither sport.

That's the only reason Navy is in this conversation - ND becomes 15th football member and requests or makes it a condition that Navy is added football-only.
Navy is not in consideration any other way.

Notre Dame was the first omne that came up with the ideal of a Mega Conference a long time ago that wanted Army and Navy along with their rivals from the PAC 12, Big 10, ACC and at the time, the big Independents of the time. If that came together? There may not be a PAC 12 today as the Little Brothers of the PAC 12 either raid the WAC or merged the two conferences. The little brothers of the Big 10 raids the Big 8 of Nebraska, Iowa State, Missouri and Kansas. Colorado might join the PAC 12/WAC schools. The rest of the Big 12 would join the SWC. ACC may not have been formed or formed with Big East schools like Rutgers, Syracuse, Boston College etc. They may have to add schools like Delaware in the future. Notre Dame's dream conference is not with all of the ACC schools. Yes, Army and Navy in for all sports for ND. They may want Air Force now as well. The military schools are more attractive to them some how.

If the parasites were to become member #15 and Navy football only were the price we had to pay I doubt that with basketball being only 20% of the media payout that there is any rationale, either financially or otherwise, in adding a #16 in all other sports. There isn't divisional play in basketball, and the only olympic sport where there is wouldn't be affected because Syracuse doesn't offer baseball and Navy would be playing it in the Patriot League, and there isn't a basketball program out there that by themselves would increase the payout enough to not just cover their share but increase it for the entire league.


Not to mention the fact that adding an olympic only school just creates additional agendas within the conference, creating unnecessary conflict for no financial gain.

Thus I imagine if this unrealistic scenario were to come to pass we'd just stick with the existing membership levels outside of football.

16 is too many. 15 is going to be a stretch. I would like to get back to 12.

The only one on the poll that makes sense is Cincinnati. They’re an ACC school stuck in G5 purgatory. UConn is a good fit academically and it has a strong men’s and women’s basketball brand. But their FB program is a deal breaker. Houston opens a new market but they’re not going anywhere so there’s no rush to add them. The U_F twins don’t bring anything to the table as long as Florida State and Miami are in the ACC. Other than geography, Temple doesn’t add anything.

TCU and WVU won’t leave the Big XII to make less money in the ACC.

So my vote is for Cincinnati.

(09-23-2020 03:11 PM)schmolik Wrote:  

(09-23-2020 09:31 AM)ken d Wrote:  This is a question that IMO can only be answered after resolving two major unknowns: will Notre Dame remain independent in football post-COVID, and will the NCAA eliminate the requirement for balanced divisions in football.

Let's say Notre Dame stays independent in football and the NCAA doesn't eliminate the divisions requirement (the requirement isn't for balanced divisions as the MAC had seven and six team divisions before). Because of Notre Dame, the ACC will always have either an odd number of teams in football...

Unless it adds another Notre Dame, another "all but football member". Then the ACC would have 16 members in men's/women's basketball but still have 14 football members. UConn was mentioned. The ACC can get the good UConn teams, especially their women's basketball team, but not their football team.

Another possibility I've campaigned for before is Villanova. Unlike UConn who hasn't been good in men's basketball in several years, Villanova is awesome now. Villanova would also give the ACC a presence in Philly and the Big East would no longer be considered a "Power" conference in men's basketball.

https://www.tarheelblog.com/2019/2/23/18...all-member

Adding Navy as a football only member helps nothing unless Notre Dame comes aboard full time. You then have 15 in football and men's basketball which is ideal for neither sport.

I strongly feel the Big East would remain a power men's hoops league even if Nova left for the ACC. The loss would be huge but the league would be fine overall.

(09-23-2020 09:52 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  16 is too many, the ACC knows that. They've scuttled a powerful brand for taking ESPN's bait to split up the Big East to save them money.

A 12 team ACC (so long to BC, Pitt, and post-Boeheim Syracuse) would be a powerful combination.

Big East Football was greater than the sum of its parts because of the rivalries and the media focus. If you just kept the North East monopoly, you could have let Miami go and all the schools would have been better off collectively. Now, some schools are winners and others are losers. That's Darwinism I suppose, but even a football conference with:

South: Pitt, WVU, UC, UL, USF, UCF
North: RU, UConn, BC, Cuse, Navy (FB only), Temple

That conference would have never lost P6 status in football let alone BBall. Now half those schools are set years back while the others sold out to greed (and obscurity in most cases). ESPN sadly didn't want to shell out two separate contracts and tried to cut costs, diluting the product overall.