The unofficial online home for fans of the Old Dominion University Monarchs. Part of Collegiate Sports Nation (CSN).

(09-12-2022 01:38 PM)monarx Wrote:  

(09-12-2022 12:17 PM)The Flagship Wrote:  With low graduation rates, and high Pell Grant attendees, the school is fleecing many students. It's a money grab. The school is complicit in this scam. It's time to require many students to attend community college to determine their commitment to a degree, and their worthiness of taxpayer funded financial support.

If you think about it, if you are one class short of a degree, you aren't much more employable than if you hadn't attended at all. And therefore, the grant money wasted, and the debt accumulated, becomes a poor investment, and tragedy.

Ive heard one interesting idea floated that would solve this issue quickly. It wont happen, but what if the feds got out of the loan game and student loans were issued by the schools themselves? Then the college would be on the hook for people who dont pay or who get jobs that dont pay enough to pay their bills. Or take the fin aid money and give it to the schools to distribute through loans and scholarships as they wish, earmarking it all to financial qualifications. Part of the rankings issue is ODU has a disproportionate amount of students on Pell grants, and loan repayment is also a factor in the rankings (I guess ability to pay is looked at as a measurement of degree quality). But lots of these loans either never result in a degree being completed or are used for non-lucrative majors.

And fwiw, I still have hope in Dr. Hemphill. He seems to care about the academic reputation and also the upcoming merger could be a game changer. Dr. Runte seemed to care about academics and student experience though, and they ran her off. And the folks I know within the school seem to think that was the right move, though Im not sure why.

Having the schools on the hook may not be the answer. They are in charge of the grades. I wouldn't want them passing someone that didn't earn it just so they become "degreed" and can hopefully pay the loan back.

Just to be clear, I'm not against Pell Grants. I just think they need to be given to students that have shown some academic worthiness, whether in high school or community college.

The bottom line is that we will not make the climb that we hope for. As we improve, other schools improve as well. It's just not going to happen. The last gasp effort was adding dorms and football. But after 10+ years of those initiatives, it seems we are barely keeping up.

(09-12-2022 04:16 PM)The Flagship Wrote:  

(09-12-2022 01:38 PM)monarx Wrote:  

(09-12-2022 12:17 PM)The Flagship Wrote:  With low graduation rates, and high Pell Grant attendees, the school is fleecing many students. It's a money grab. The school is complicit in this scam. It's time to require many students to attend community college to determine their commitment to a degree, and their worthiness of taxpayer funded financial support.

If you think about it, if you are one class short of a degree, you aren't much more employable than if you hadn't attended at all. And therefore, the grant money wasted, and the debt accumulated, becomes a poor investment, and tragedy.

Ive heard one interesting idea floated that would solve this issue quickly. It wont happen, but what if the feds got out of the loan game and student loans were issued by the schools themselves? Then the college would be on the hook for people who dont pay or who get jobs that dont pay enough to pay their bills. Or take the fin aid money and give it to the schools to distribute through loans and scholarships as they wish, earmarking it all to financial qualifications. Part of the rankings issue is ODU has a disproportionate amount of students on Pell grants, and loan repayment is also a factor in the rankings (I guess ability to pay is looked at as a measurement of degree quality). But lots of these loans either never result in a degree being completed or are used for non-lucrative majors.

And fwiw, I still have hope in Dr. Hemphill. He seems to care about the academic reputation and also the upcoming merger could be a game changer. Dr. Runte seemed to care about academics and student experience though, and they ran her off. And the folks I know within the school seem to think that was the right move, though Im not sure why.

Having the schools on the hook may not be the answer. They are in charge of the grades. I wouldn't want them passing someone that didn't earn it just so they become "degreed" and can hopefully pay the loan back.

Just to be clear, I'm not against Pell Grants. I just think they need to be given to students that have shown some academic worthiness, whether in high school or community college.

The bottom line is that we will not make the climb that we hope for. As we improve, other schools improve as well. It's just not going to happen. The last gasp effort was adding dorms and football. But after 10+ years of those initiatives, it seems we are barely keeping up.

We did make some progress, its just the schools we used to be equal too (VCU/GMU) made even more progress at the same time. What ticks me off is losing ground. And a lot of it. We need to set a serious goal of top 200. Thats not too much to ask. It appears as if Broderick dropped the ball academically and watched our peers pass us by. We've got some catching up to do. The R1 classification, way better marketing, improved student experience, the med school merger and athletic success will go a long way in changing perceptions too. I dont think its coincidence that both VCU and GMU made jumps "academically" (which is influenced by "peer perception") right after they went to F4s. That also helped them bump up applications to increase selectivity a bit and improve their applicant pool. Which also affects rankings.

(09-12-2022 04:20 PM)monarx Wrote:  

(09-12-2022 04:16 PM)The Flagship Wrote:  

(09-12-2022 01:38 PM)monarx Wrote:  

(09-12-2022 12:17 PM)The Flagship Wrote:  With low graduation rates, and high Pell Grant attendees, the school is fleecing many students. It's a money grab. The school is complicit in this scam. It's time to require many students to attend community college to determine their commitment to a degree, and their worthiness of taxpayer funded financial support.

If you think about it, if you are one class short of a degree, you aren't much more employable than if you hadn't attended at all. And therefore, the grant money wasted, and the debt accumulated, becomes a poor investment, and tragedy.

Ive heard one interesting idea floated that would solve this issue quickly. It wont happen, but what if the feds got out of the loan game and student loans were issued by the schools themselves? Then the college would be on the hook for people who dont pay or who get jobs that dont pay enough to pay their bills. Or take the fin aid money and give it to the schools to distribute through loans and scholarships as they wish, earmarking it all to financial qualifications. Part of the rankings issue is ODU has a disproportionate amount of students on Pell grants, and loan repayment is also a factor in the rankings (I guess ability to pay is looked at as a measurement of degree quality). But lots of these loans either never result in a degree being completed or are used for non-lucrative majors.

And fwiw, I still have hope in Dr. Hemphill. He seems to care about the academic reputation and also the upcoming merger could be a game changer. Dr. Runte seemed to care about academics and student experience though, and they ran her off. And the folks I know within the school seem to think that was the right move, though Im not sure why.

Having the schools on the hook may not be the answer. They are in charge of the grades. I wouldn't want them passing someone that didn't earn it just so they become "degreed" and can hopefully pay the loan back.

Just to be clear, I'm not against Pell Grants. I just think they need to be given to students that have shown some academic worthiness, whether in high school or community college.

The bottom line is that we will not make the climb that we hope for. As we improve, other schools improve as well. It's just not going to happen. The last gasp effort was adding dorms and football. But after 10+ years of those initiatives, it seems we are barely keeping up.

We did make some progress, just the schools we used to be equal too (VCU/GMU) made even more progress at the same time. What ticks me off is losing ground. And a lot of it. We need to set a serious goal of top 200. Thats not too much to ask.

The only way that happens anytime soon is by dropping enrollment by about 4000 students. And that isn't going to happen because the budget counts on their tuition fees.

(09-12-2022 04:29 PM)The Flagship Wrote:  

(09-12-2022 04:20 PM)monarx Wrote:  

(09-12-2022 04:16 PM)The Flagship Wrote:  

(09-12-2022 01:38 PM)monarx Wrote:  

(09-12-2022 12:17 PM)The Flagship Wrote:  With low graduation rates, and high Pell Grant attendees, the school is fleecing many students. It's a money grab. The school is complicit in this scam. It's time to require many students to attend community college to determine their commitment to a degree, and their worthiness of taxpayer funded financial support.

If you think about it, if you are one class short of a degree, you aren't much more employable than if you hadn't attended at all. And therefore, the grant money wasted, and the debt accumulated, becomes a poor investment, and tragedy.

Ive heard one interesting idea floated that would solve this issue quickly. It wont happen, but what if the feds got out of the loan game and student loans were issued by the schools themselves? Then the college would be on the hook for people who dont pay or who get jobs that dont pay enough to pay their bills. Or take the fin aid money and give it to the schools to distribute through loans and scholarships as they wish, earmarking it all to financial qualifications. Part of the rankings issue is ODU has a disproportionate amount of students on Pell grants, and loan repayment is also a factor in the rankings (I guess ability to pay is looked at as a measurement of degree quality). But lots of these loans either never result in a degree being completed or are used for non-lucrative majors.

And fwiw, I still have hope in Dr. Hemphill. He seems to care about the academic reputation and also the upcoming merger could be a game changer. Dr. Runte seemed to care about academics and student experience though, and they ran her off. And the folks I know within the school seem to think that was the right move, though Im not sure why.

Having the schools on the hook may not be the answer. They are in charge of the grades. I wouldn't want them passing someone that didn't earn it just so they become "degreed" and can hopefully pay the loan back.

Just to be clear, I'm not against Pell Grants. I just think they need to be given to students that have shown some academic worthiness, whether in high school or community college.

The bottom line is that we will not make the climb that we hope for. As we improve, other schools improve as well. It's just not going to happen. The last gasp effort was adding dorms and football. But after 10+ years of those initiatives, it seems we are barely keeping up.

We did make some progress, just the schools we used to be equal too (VCU/GMU) made even more progress at the same time. What ticks me off is losing ground. And a lot of it. We need to set a serious goal of top 200. Thats not too much to ask.

The only way that happens anytime soon is by dropping enrollment by about 4000 students. And that isn't going to happen because the budget counts on their tuition fees.

Dropping enrollment by 1000 might be a start. Short term pain for long term gain. But I have a bit of ethical issue with that as a state school. Honestly, its not even that hard to figure out. At the U I work for, we have a guy who's entire job is to monitor rankings, figure out what numbers we need to hit for each category and make sure we do so. And thats just for one school in the U. There are several folks like that on campus. Im friends with the person who does that same work at GMU. They can tell you months in advance where programs will likely rank and they can tell you exactly why and what needs to be done to improve in each area. Its an entire industry. Its mostly bogus too. But it matters significantly, which is why schools are spending hundreds of thousands every year on rankings management.

(09-12-2022 04:35 PM)monarx Wrote:  

(09-12-2022 04:29 PM)The Flagship Wrote:  

(09-12-2022 04:20 PM)monarx Wrote:  

(09-12-2022 04:16 PM)The Flagship Wrote:  

(09-12-2022 01:38 PM)monarx Wrote:  Ive heard one interesting idea floated that would solve this issue quickly. It wont happen, but what if the feds got out of the loan game and student loans were issued by the schools themselves? Then the college would be on the hook for people who dont pay or who get jobs that dont pay enough to pay their bills. Or take the fin aid money and give it to the schools to distribute through loans and scholarships as they wish, earmarking it all to financial qualifications. Part of the rankings issue is ODU has a disproportionate amount of students on Pell grants, and loan repayment is also a factor in the rankings (I guess ability to pay is looked at as a measurement of degree quality). But lots of these loans either never result in a degree being completed or are used for non-lucrative majors.

And fwiw, I still have hope in Dr. Hemphill. He seems to care about the academic reputation and also the upcoming merger could be a game changer. Dr. Runte seemed to care about academics and student experience though, and they ran her off. And the folks I know within the school seem to think that was the right move, though Im not sure why.

Having the schools on the hook may not be the answer. They are in charge of the grades. I wouldn't want them passing someone that didn't earn it just so they become "degreed" and can hopefully pay the loan back.

Just to be clear, I'm not against Pell Grants. I just think they need to be given to students that have shown some academic worthiness, whether in high school or community college.

The bottom line is that we will not make the climb that we hope for. As we improve, other schools improve as well. It's just not going to happen. The last gasp effort was adding dorms and football. But after 10+ years of those initiatives, it seems we are barely keeping up.

We did make some progress, just the schools we used to be equal too (VCU/GMU) made even more progress at the same time. What ticks me off is losing ground. And a lot of it. We need to set a serious goal of top 200. Thats not too much to ask.

The only way that happens anytime soon is by dropping enrollment by about 4000 students. And that isn't going to happen because the budget counts on their tuition fees.

Dropping enrollment by 1000 might be a start. Short term pain for long term gain. But I have a bit of ethical issue with that as a state school. Honestly, its not even that hard to figure out. At the U I work for, we have a guy who's entire job is to monitor rankings, figure out what numbers we need to hit for each category and make sure we do so. And thats just for one school in the U. There are several folks like that on campus. Im friends with the person who does that same work at GMU. They can tell you months in advance where programs will likely rank and they can tell you exactly why and what needs to be done to improve in each area. Its an entire industry. Its mostly bogus too. But it matters significantly, which is why schools are spending hundreds of thousands every year on rankings management.

These rankings have become very important, whether you believe they are accurate or not. Columbia recently got busted for providing wrong data that bumped them up significantly. I'm sure there are many other schools providing "wrong" data.

I love when we have academic ranking discussions, because inevitably, a) multiple posters will declare that we’re too good for our mission and want to change it to chase inexact results from flawed publications, and b) multiple posters will say “diverse” the way they would “child molester.” The Pell Grant bit is a new twist, I gotta admit. College? For the poors? Who the hell will serve me my Egg McMuffin? On the other hand, this is the time when some of our posters relate best to UR fans.

What can alumni do? Reroute athletic donations to academic?

The ODU presidential scholarship gives tuition assistance to high schoolers with high GPAs - great at attracting talent.

(09-12-2022 05:19 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  I love when we have academic ranking discussions, because inevitably, a) multiple posters will declare that we’re too good for our mission and want to change it to chase inexact results from flawed publications, and b) multiple posters will say “diverse” the way they would “child molester.” The Pell Grant bit is a new twist, I gotta admit. College? For the poors? Who the hell will serve me my Egg McMuffin? On the other hand, this is the time when some of our posters relate best to UR fans.

Regarding Pell Grants and graduation rates, here is a link to one of many articles on the subject:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brown-cen...ion-rates/

With roughly a 51% graduation rate (success rate) for Pell Grant recipients, this "investment" is similar to betting on a sporting event with the spread. For the 49%, they accumulate debt (loans to cover costs above the grant value) and don't have the degree to help pay it back.

To be clear, I'm not against Pell Grants. I'm against the way they are administered. And schools like ODU, which has a high number of Pell Grant recipients, rake in the tuition money while hurting their statistics that might attract better students and higher-paying out-of-state students.

(09-12-2022 05:19 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  I love when we have academic ranking discussions, because inevitably, a) multiple posters will declare that we’re too good for our mission and want to change it to chase inexact results from flawed publications, and b) multiple posters will say “diverse” the way they would “child molester.” The Pell Grant bit is a new twist, I gotta admit. College? For the poors? Who the hell will serve me my Egg McMuffin? On the other hand, this is the time when some of our posters relate best to UR fans.

Yep and multiple posters derail the conversation with their purported wit and comical hubris by adding nothing of substance to the discussion.

(09-13-2022 08:35 AM)12thmonarch Wrote:  

(09-12-2022 05:19 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  I love when we have academic ranking discussions, because inevitably, a) multiple posters will declare that we’re too good for our mission and want to change it to chase inexact results from flawed publications, and b) multiple posters will say “diverse” the way they would “child molester.” The Pell Grant bit is a new twist, I gotta admit. College? For the poors? Who the hell will serve me my Egg McMuffin? On the other hand, this is the time when some of our posters relate best to UR fans.

Yep and multiple posters derail the conversation with their purported wit and comical hubris by adding nothing of substance to the discussion.

The roots of comedy tap directly into the truth, and it is as valid as any form of discourse.

(09-13-2022 09:09 AM)beenjamminmore Wrote:  

(09-13-2022 08:35 AM)12thmonarch Wrote:  

(09-12-2022 05:19 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  I love when we have academic ranking discussions, because inevitably, a) multiple posters will declare that we’re too good for our mission and want to change it to chase inexact results from flawed publications, and b) multiple posters will say “diverse” the way they would “child molester.” The Pell Grant bit is a new twist, I gotta admit. College? For the poors? Who the hell will serve me my Egg McMuffin? On the other hand, this is the time when some of our posters relate best to UR fans.

Yep and multiple posters derail the conversation with their purported wit and comical hubris by adding nothing of substance to the discussion.

The roots of comedy tap directly into the truth, and it is as valid as any form of discourse.

Well they tap directly into a lot of roots not named truth called stupidity, ignorance, mockery and in some cases apathy.

President Hemphill has stated that he and his administration are focusing on improving student graduation and retention rates as the highest priority. [/align]

(09-13-2022 01:56 PM)monarchfan4life Wrote:  President Hemphill has stated that he and his administration are focusing on improving student graduation and retention rates as the highest priority. [/align]

Excellent. It does appear that he appreciates academic prowess and reputation a bit more than his predecessor. Ive noticed a lot more mentions of academic achievements, rankings and awards in ODU communications since he's taken over. Im a bit optimistic he's going to do good things for our school.

(09-12-2022 11:58 AM)12thmonarch Wrote:  

(09-12-2022 11:06 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

(09-12-2022 10:27 AM)12thmonarch Wrote:  

(09-12-2022 10:05 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

(09-12-2022 09:58 AM)12thmonarch Wrote:  I usually don't give a rats ass to US News rankings but that 25% graduation rate is just horrible to say the least. What in the world is happening over there. I am glad we are an R1 tier institution but the more graduates we can have in the world generating top dollar the better it is for the school to keep the donor streams nice and get the research going with the dollars generated. We can't have an abysmal 25% graduation rate no matter how you see it and pride ourselves as an educational institution trying to improve on the academic side.

Too many folks stepping on the seal, obviously

LOL the seal strike. In all seriousness though i hope someone from the admin is looking into those stats and the causes to fix them ASAP or at least address them for future.

All kidding aside, I'd be interested in seeing the breakdown that shows how many working adults we have as students. I know I worked myself through school at ODU and it added a year to my time. And it's a big part of why I appreciate what ODU is so much. The school offered me the flexibility with online and night classes so I could make it work and leave the school with a great degree to start a great career. I know I met a lot of folks in my time at ODU that were doing the same thing.

Interesting and a valid take on real life situation for most of the working adults. Based on how this 4 year graduation rates are calculated a significant amount of working adults can induce a rolling higher time periods into the graduation cycle and can skew the numbers bad. Hopefully that is the case and we are still doing fine with graduating students.

Count me in that stat maybe. Worked about 30 hours a week the entire time at odu. Graduated with plenty of experience and resume. Graduates in 98 from hs did tcc for 2 years then odu for 4.

(09-13-2022 01:56 PM)monarchfan4life Wrote:  President Hemphill has stated that he and his administration are focusing on improving student graduation and retention rates as the highest priority. [/align]

That starts with admissions and not lowering standards to also accommodate/admit (96%) every student because the University needs the revenue from students to operate. Since the University changed who and how they were admitting things have gotten worse. Yes the pandemic has impacted these #'s but there needs to be better recruitment of more qualified students that once were applying to ODU but now are going elsewhere. This also shouldn't mean lowering grading standards etc to pass and graduate more students. Finally...the faculty needs to be held accountable as well. They need to ensure that they are available and provide all the support a student might need outside of class time to enable those student that are on the margins to succeed. Need to get the focus back on academic performance and not all these other frivolous feel good metrics. A degree from ODU should mean something !

(09-13-2022 09:14 PM)bit_9 Wrote:  

(09-12-2022 11:58 AM)12thmonarch Wrote:  

(09-12-2022 11:06 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

(09-12-2022 10:27 AM)12thmonarch Wrote:  

(09-12-2022 10:05 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  Too many folks stepping on the seal, obviously

LOL the seal strike. In all seriousness though i hope someone from the admin is looking into those stats and the causes to fix them ASAP or at least address them for future.

All kidding aside, I'd be interested in seeing the breakdown that shows how many working adults we have as students. I know I worked myself through school at ODU and it added a year to my time. And it's a big part of why I appreciate what ODU is so much. The school offered me the flexibility with online and night classes so I could make it work and leave the school with a great degree to start a great career. I know I met a lot of folks in my time at ODU that were doing the same thing.

Interesting and a valid take on real life situation for most of the working adults. Based on how this 4 year graduation rates are calculated a significant amount of working adults can induce a rolling higher time periods into the graduation cycle and can skew the numbers bad. Hopefully that is the case and we are still doing fine with graduating students.

Count me in that stat maybe. Worked about 30 hours a week the entire time at odu. Graduated with plenty of experience and resume. Graduates in 98 from hs did tcc for 2 years then odu for 4.

That is great and bravo to have balanced them both at the same time. I am lucky enough to be partially funded by my Grandfather as well as from the tuition offset for my work as GA in one of the labs for 20 hours a week. Its definitely a burden to balance them both but can be done. I still ended up with debt but paid it off during the first couple of years of working. Going back to the point nothing wrong with admitting and helping the working individuals who are trying to better themselves and have every intention to wrap it up and get out of the school with a degree.

Washington Monthly college rankings are out which are much less biased and place emphasis on social mobility. ODU does well at #41 Best Bang for the Buck (worse than NSU, JMU and many peers, but not bad), and #108 overall national university. Looking at all the criteria here, I’m convinced if ODU could improve its atrocious graduation rate, without sacrificing academic rigor, we would shoot up in all these rankings. According to this we have a shocking 58% grad rate over EIGHT years! Improve that, and reap the rewards.

https://washingtonmonthly.com/2022-college-guide/

(09-13-2022 06:18 AM)The Flagship Wrote:  

(09-12-2022 05:19 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  I love when we have academic ranking discussions, because inevitably, a) multiple posters will declare that we’re too good for our mission and want to change it to chase inexact results from flawed publications, and b) multiple posters will say “diverse” the way they would “child molester.” The Pell Grant bit is a new twist, I gotta admit. College? For the poors? Who the hell will serve me my Egg McMuffin? On the other hand, this is the time when some of our posters relate best to UR fans.

Regarding Pell Grants and graduation rates, here is a link to one of many articles on the subject:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brown-cen...ion-rates/

With roughly a 51% graduation rate (success rate) for Pell Grant recipients, this "investment" is similar to betting on a sporting event with the spread. For the 49%, they accumulate debt (loans to cover costs above the grant value) and don't have the degree to help pay it back.

To be clear, I'm not against Pell Grants. I'm against the way they are administered. And schools like ODU, which has a high number of Pell Grant recipients, rake in the tuition money while hurting their statistics that might attract better students and higher-paying out-of-state students.

ODU would help it’s student body a ton if 12 credits cost the same at 18 credits each semester.

Charging by the credit, for a school that serves the population it does is insane. ODU banks on their student body wanting to graduate in 4 years and thinks charging a little less in summer will get the summer money up.

Charge a set rate for 12-18 credits a semester and watchtower the graduation rates go up

(10-03-2022 10:58 PM)Justanodufan Wrote:  

(09-13-2022 06:18 AM)The Flagship Wrote:  

(09-12-2022 05:19 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  I love when we have academic ranking discussions, because inevitably, a) multiple posters will declare that we’re too good for our mission and want to change it to chase inexact results from flawed publications, and b) multiple posters will say “diverse” the way they would “child molester.” The Pell Grant bit is a new twist, I gotta admit. College? For the poors? Who the hell will serve me my Egg McMuffin? On the other hand, this is the time when some of our posters relate best to UR fans.

Regarding Pell Grants and graduation rates, here is a link to one of many articles on the subject:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brown-cen...ion-rates/

With roughly a 51% graduation rate (success rate) for Pell Grant recipients, this "investment" is similar to betting on a sporting event with the spread. For the 49%, they accumulate debt (loans to cover costs above the grant value) and don't have the degree to help pay it back.

To be clear, I'm not against Pell Grants. I'm against the way they are administered. And schools like ODU, which has a high number of Pell Grant recipients, rake in the tuition money while hurting their statistics that might attract better students and higher-paying out-of-state students.

ODU would help it’s student body a ton if 12 credits cost the same at 18 credits each semester.

Charging by the credit, for a school that serves the population it does is insane. ODU banks on their student body wanting to graduate in 4 years and thinks charging a little less in summer will get the summer money up.

Charge a set rate for 12-18 credits a semester and watchtower the graduation rates go up

I'm sure this is based on historical statistics where a majority of full time students take less than 18 hours. I assume the thinking here is that students will cram in 18 hours and succumb to the load and not graduate, and/or, that the "full time" rate would be higher than the large number of students that want to only take 12 are willing to pay.

The question is, what are the costs of 12, 15, & 18 hours vs. the "full time" rate at other state schools. A quick check of JMU shows that the ODU per credit rate is equal to around 17 hours of a full time student at JMU. In other words, it is cheaper to attend ODU vs. JMU if you are taking 12-16 credit hours.

Since we draw many more "local" students than JMU, we probably have more demand at the 12-15 hour range for those who live at home and work. This ODU rate schedule makes it more affordable for them.

What we need to do better is pushing and helping students to finish in 4 yrs. ODU has a need for better school counselors. We have a large group of students using Pell Grants and the problem with them is once they start using the grant you only have 4 years of benefits. I have a granddaughter at ODU, who is working. Now she's full time, because her employer is short on help. It's making it harder, to finish in 4 years. So now the grant is done, she's sitting at ~24 hours short. I'm telling her I'll help her finish, but understand how a 22 year old making pretty good money is having a hard time getting across the goal line.

It took me 7-1/2 years working part-time to get my EE degree, so I know how life's paths can be different for each of us. When I was recruiting and hiring engineers, I noticed that more of the ODU graduates took the longer path.

ODU provides a much needed chance for kids, that don't have all the advantages and options to get into schools with 15-25% acceptance rates. Better schools are getting much harder to get into. UCLA 35 years ago had an acceptance rate of 70%, now it's 14%. UVa is beating their chest about dropping to 19%.