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jjj Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Corona Virus
The ultimate stat I look at is deaths. Imo, people do not understand that the virus has spread the last 4 months, and people do not know or did not know they had the virus!!! There was a girl in Seattle who thought she had the flu, and after she got over it, they tested her, and she did in fact have the virus!

We had flights from China coming in before Trump banned them. You mean to say it did not spread from those flights? Of course it did, but the data is showing though the infections are NOT as deadly compared to the flu. Flu deaths are 10k-40k each year on average, correct??

The key is that we all have not been tested. Yes, it may "spread" more quickly that the flu, but the DEATH RATE is not showing it to be as deadly as the flu!

As of now I see 71 deaths and "4100" official cases, but what is the unofficial case count? 100k? 500k? 5 million?


When the number of deaths hits 50k (which we all hope it doesnt), then I will say it is more deadly than the flu.
Until then, I stand by statement that the data is not supporting Dr F.

What would the count be if all of us took the test today???

If the CDC had brains, I would do a random sampling test of each county in the US. Then we can get a "snapshot" of just how far the virus has spread. I bet there are many people who have the virus as we speak (including myself), but the data is showing it is not deadly by any means as the typical flu season.
(This post was last modified: 03-16-2020 12:38 PM by jjj.)
03-16-2020 12:34 PM
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NIU007 Online
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Post: #22
RE: Corona Virus
(03-16-2020 12:34 PM)jjj Wrote:  The ultimate stat I look at is deaths. Imo, people do not understand that the virus has spread the last 4 months, and people do not know or did not know they had the virus!!! There was a girl in Seattle who thought she had the flu, and after she got over it, they tested her, and she did in fact have the virus!

We had flights from China coming in before Trump banned them. You mean to say it did not spread from those flights? Of course it did, but the data is showing though the infections are NOT as deadly compared to the flu. Flu deaths are 10k-40k each year on average, correct??

The key is that we all have not been tested. Yes, it may "spread" more quickly that the flu, but the DEATH RATE is not showing it to be as deadly as the flu!

As of now I see 71 deaths and "4100" official cases, but what is the unofficial case count? 100k? 500k? 5 million?


When the number of deaths hits 50k (which we all hope it doesnt), then I will say it is more deadly than the flu.
Until then, I stand by statement that the data is not supporting Dr F.


What would the count be if all of us took the test today???

If the CDC had brains, I would do a random sampling test of each county in the US. Then we can get a "snapshot" of just how far the virus has spread. I bet there are many people who have the virus as we speak (including myself), but the data is showing it is not deadly by any means as the typical flu season.

This is a little like saying that somebody that jumps off a 10-story building is just fine after dropping 9 floors.
03-16-2020 12:51 PM
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MaddDawgz02 Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Corona Virus
(03-16-2020 12:34 PM)jjj Wrote:  The ultimate stat I look at is deaths. Imo, people do not understand that the virus has spread the last 4 months, and people do not know or did not know they had the virus!!! There was a girl in Seattle who thought she had the flu, and after she got over it, they tested her, and she did in fact have the virus!

We had flights from China coming in before Trump banned them. You mean to say it did not spread from those flights? Of course it did, but the data is showing though the infections are NOT as deadly compared to the flu. Flu deaths are 10k-40k each year on average, correct??

The key is that we all have not been tested. Yes, it may "spread" more quickly that the flu, but the DEATH RATE is not showing it to be as deadly as the flu!

As of now I see 71 deaths and "4100" official cases, but what is the unofficial case count? 100k? 500k? 5 million?


When the number of deaths hits 50k (which we all hope it doesnt), then I will say it is more deadly than the flu.
Until then, I stand by statement that the data is not supporting Dr F.

What would the count be if all of us took the test today???

If the CDC had brains, I would do a random sampling test of each county in the US. Then we can get a "snapshot" of just how far the virus has spread. I bet there are many people who have the virus as we speak (including myself), but the data is showing it is not deadly by any means as the typical flu season.

I think you hit the nail on the head about "if CDC had brains". This is the problem, the desired result IS the economic damage. There is no motivation to do things that would work against inflicting maximum economic damage. This will continue to play out until around Nov 4th.
03-16-2020 04:24 PM
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MaddDawgz02 Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Corona Virus
I trust and sincerely hope the Illinois primary election has been delayed? I am not seeing anything online yet...if an election goes forward after all these precautions...I just will have NO WORDS left to describe this
03-17-2020 12:36 AM
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NIU007 Online
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Post: #25
RE: Corona Virus
(03-17-2020 12:36 AM)MaddDawgz02 Wrote:  I trust and sincerely hope the Illinois primary election has been delayed? I am not seeing anything online yet...if an election goes forward after all these precautions...I just will have NO WORDS left to describe this

I haven't heard anything either on that - I would think we would have if they were cancelling it. That is strange, for sure.
03-17-2020 08:46 AM
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NIUHuskie Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Corona Virus
(03-17-2020 12:36 AM)MaddDawgz02 Wrote:  I trust and sincerely hope the Illinois primary election has been delayed? I am not seeing anything online yet...if an election goes forward after all these precautions...I just will have NO WORDS left to describe this

Out of one side of your mouth you say it's all an overreaction to hurt the markets and hurt Trump.

Then, out of the other side of your mouth, you "trust and sincerely hope the Illinois primary election" is delayed.

Why do you hope the primary election is delayed? Are you hoping to set precedent for the general election in November?
03-17-2020 10:14 AM
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Big_Man Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Corona Virus
(03-17-2020 10:14 AM)NIUHuskie Wrote:  
(03-17-2020 12:36 AM)MaddDawgz02 Wrote:  I trust and sincerely hope the Illinois primary election has been delayed? I am not seeing anything online yet...if an election goes forward after all these precautions...I just will have NO WORDS left to describe this

Out of one side of your mouth you say it's all an overreaction to hurt the markets and hurt Trump.

Then, out of the other side of your mouth, you "trust and sincerely hope the Illinois primary election" is delayed.

Why do you hope the primary election is delayed? Are you hoping to set precedent for the general election in November?

It's because he is so partisan whatever Prtizger does is terrible and whatever Trump does it genius. That's why Trump shutting down the Chinese board was perfect, but him saying the virus will be at 0 infections is also perfect. When Trump finds someone to blame his response to this pandemic on, Maddawgz will go after that person like a junkyard dog on a bone.
03-17-2020 10:35 AM
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NILAW Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Corona Virus
Facts:

Illinois:55 new cases brings Illinois total to 160; first death:

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/55...s/2238927/

Worldwide: Approaching 200,000 confirmed cases and 8,000 deaths:

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/...7b48e9ecf6
03-17-2020 07:32 PM
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Big_Man Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Corona Virus
(03-17-2020 07:32 PM)NILAW Wrote:  Facts:

Illinois:55 new cases brings Illinois total to 160; first death:

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/55...s/2238927/

Worldwide: Approaching 200,000 confirmed cases and 8,000 deaths:

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/...7b48e9ecf6

Yeah, but the MAC not allowing fans in the tournament was a complete overreaction put on by the main stream media and the democrats.
03-17-2020 09:55 PM
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jjj Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Corona Virus
Saw Dr. Gupta on CNN predict "1 Million US Deaths" from coronavirus tonight...hope he is wrong..


Let us all hope the CDC is wrong again with their predictions...interesting article on their Ebola predictions...


https://www.scientificamerican.com/artic...se-models/
03-18-2020 01:58 AM
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NIUHuskie Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Corona Virus
(03-18-2020 01:58 AM)jjj Wrote:  Saw Dr. Gupta on CNN predict "1 Million US Deaths" from coronavirus tonight...hope he is wrong..


Let us all hope the CDC is wrong again with their predictions...interesting article on their Ebola predictions...


https://www.scientificamerican.com/artic...se-models/

I believe Dr. Gupta (a DOCTOR unlike TV DOCTOR, Dr. Oz on Fox) said potentially up to 1 million.
03-18-2020 10:54 AM
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NIUHuskie Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Corona Virus
Trump/Fox news defenders, what do you have to say about this video?



03-18-2020 10:55 AM
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NIU007 Online
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Post: #33
RE: Corona Virus
(03-18-2020 10:55 AM)NIUHuskie Wrote:  Trump/Fox news defenders, what do you have to say about this video?




Like Trump, they knew all along it was a serious pandemic. You're just misunderstanding what they've been saying for the past month, when they appeared to be downplaying the virus and calling the whole thing a hoax. So basically, they didn't actually say what the video shows them saying. Or something like that.
03-18-2020 11:35 AM
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jjj Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Corona Virus
Best article yet, from a Professor Of Medicine at Stanford




A fiasco in the making? As the coronavirus pandemic takes hold, we are making decisions without reliable data
By JOHN P.A. IOANNIDIS MARCH 17, 2020



The current coronavirus disease, Covid-19, has been called a once-in-a-century pandemic. But it may also be a once-in-a-century evidence fiasco.

At a time when everyone needs better information, from disease modelers and governments to people quarantined or just social distancing, we lack reliable evidence on how many people have been infected with SARS-CoV-2 or who continue to become infected. Better information is needed to guide decisions and actions of monumental significance and to monitor their impact.

Draconian countermeasures have been adopted in many countries. If the pandemic dissipates — either on its own or because of these measures — short-term extreme social distancing and lockdowns may be bearable. How long, though, should measures like these be continued if the pandemic churns across the globe unabated? How can policymakers tell if they are doing more good than harm?

Vaccines or affordable treatments take many months (or even years) to develop and test properly. Given such timelines, the consequences of long-term lockdowns are entirely unknown.

The data collected so far on how many people are infected and how the epidemic is evolving are utterly unreliable. Given the limited testing to date, some deaths and probably the vast majority of infections due to SARS-CoV-2 are being missed. We don’t know if we are failing to capture infections by a factor of three or 300. Three months after the outbreak emerged, most countries, including the U.S., lack the ability to test a large number of people and no countries have reliable data on the prevalence of the virus in a representative random sample of the general population.

This evidence fiasco creates tremendous uncertainty about the risk of dying from Covid-19. Reported case fatality rates, like the official 3.4% rate from the World Health Organization, cause horror — and are meaningless. Patients who have been tested for SARS-CoV-2 are disproportionately those with severe symptoms and bad outcomes. As most health systems have limited testing capacity, selection bias may even worsen in the near future.

The one situation where an entire, closed population was tested was the Diamond Princess cruise ship and its quarantine passengers. The case fatality rate there was 1.0%, but this was a largely elderly population, in which the death rate from Covid-19 is much higher.

Projecting the Diamond Princess mortality rate onto the age structure of the U.S. population, the death rate among people infected with Covid-19 would be 0.125%. But since this estimate is based on extremely thin data — there were just seven deaths among the 700 infected passengers and crew — the real death rate could stretch from five times lower (0.025%) to five times higher (0.625%). It is also possible that some of the passengers who were infected might die later, and that tourists may have different frequencies of chronic diseases — a risk factor for worse outcomes with SARS-CoV-2 infection — than the general population. Adding these extra sources of uncertainty, reasonable estimates for the case fatality ratio in the general U.S. population vary from 0.05% to 1%.

That huge range markedly affects how severe the pandemic is and what should be done. A population-wide case fatality rate of 0.05% is lower than seasonal influenza. If that is the true rate, locking down the world with potentially tremendous social and financial consequences may be totally irrational. It’s like an elephant being attacked by a house cat. Frustrated and trying to avoid the cat, the elephant accidentally jumps off a cliff and dies.

Could the Covid-19 case fatality rate be that low? No, some say, pointing to the high rate in elderly people. However, even some so-called mild or common-cold-type coronaviruses that have been known for decades can have case fatality rates as high as 8% when they infect elderly people in nursing homes. In fact, such “mild” coronaviruses infect tens of millions of people every year, and account for 3% to 11% of those hospitalized in the U.S. with lower respiratory infections each winter.

These “mild” coronaviruses may be implicated in several thousands of deaths every year worldwide, though the vast majority of them are not documented with precise testing. Instead, they are lost as noise among 60 million deaths from various causes every year.

Although successful surveillance systems have long existed for influenza, the disease is confirmed by a laboratory in a tiny minority of cases. In the U.S., for example, so far this season 1,073,976 specimens have been tested and 222,552 (20.7%) have tested positive for influenza. In the same period, the estimated number of influenza-like illnesses is between 36,000,000 and 51,000,000, with an estimated 22,000 to 55,000 flu deaths.

Note the uncertainty about influenza-like illness deaths: a 2.5-fold range, corresponding to tens of thousands of deaths. Every year, some of these deaths are due to influenza and some to other viruses, like common-cold coronaviruses.

In an autopsy series that tested for respiratory viruses in specimens from 57 elderly persons who died during the 2016 to 2017 influenza season, influenza viruses were detected in 18% of the specimens, while any kind of respiratory virus was found in 47%. In some people who die from viral respiratory pathogens, more than one virus is found upon autopsy and bacteria are often superimposed. A positive test for coronavirus does not mean necessarily that this virus is always primarily responsible for a patient’s demise.

If we assume that case fatality rate among individuals infected by SARS-CoV-2 is 0.3% in the general population — a mid-range guess from my Diamond Princess analysis — and that 1% of the U.S. population gets infected (about 3.3 million people), this would translate to about 10,000 deaths. This sounds like a huge number, but it is buried within the noise of the estimate of deaths from “influenza-like illness.” If we had not known about a new virus out there, and had not checked individuals with PCR tests, the number of total deaths due to “influenza-like illness” would not seem unusual this year. At most, we might have casually noted that flu this season seems to be a bit worse than average. The media coverage would have been less than for an NBA game between the two most indifferent teams.

Some worry that the 68 deaths from Covid-19 in the U.S. as of March 16 will increase exponentially to 680, 6,800, 68,000, 680,000 … along with similar catastrophic patterns around the globe. Is that a realistic scenario, or bad science fiction? How can we tell at what point such a curve might stop?

The most valuable piece of information for answering those questions would be to know the current prevalence of the infection in a random sample of a population and to repeat this exercise at regular time intervals to estimate the incidence of new infections. Sadly, that’s information we don’t have.

In the absence of data, prepare-for-the-worst reasoning leads to extreme measures of social distancing and lockdowns. Unfortunately, we do not know if these measures work. School closures, for example, may reduce transmission rates. But they may also backfire if children socialize anyhow, if school closure leads children to spend more time with susceptible elderly family members, if children at home disrupt their parents ability to work, and more. School closures may also diminish the chances of developing herd immunity in an age group that is spared serious disease.

This has been the perspective behind the different stance of the United Kingdom keeping schools open, at least until as I write this. In the absence of data on the real course of the epidemic, we don’t know whether this perspective was brilliant or catastrophic.

Flattening the curve to avoid overwhelming the health system is conceptually sound — in theory. A visual that has become viral in media and social media shows how flattening the curve reduces the volume of the epidemic that is above the threshold of what the health system can handle at any moment.

Yet if the health system does become overwhelmed, the majority of the extra deaths may not be due to coronavirus but to other common diseases and conditions such as heart attacks, strokes, trauma, bleeding, and the like that are not adequately treated. If the level of the epidemic does overwhelm the health system and extreme measures have only modest effectiveness, then flattening the curve may make things worse: Instead of being overwhelmed during a short, acute phase, the health system will remain overwhelmed for a more protracted period. That’s another reason we need data about the exact level of the epidemic activity.

One of the bottom lines is that we don’t know how long social distancing measures and lockdowns can be maintained without major consequences to the economy, society, and mental health. Unpredictable evolutions may ensue, including financial crisis, unrest, civil strife, war, and a meltdown of the social fabric. At a minimum, we need unbiased prevalence and incidence data for the evolving infectious load to guide decision-making.

In the most pessimistic scenario, which I do not espouse, if the new coronavirus infects 60% of the global population and 1% of the infected people die, that will translate into more than 40 million deaths globally, matching the 1918 influenza pandemic.

The vast majority of this hecatomb would be people with limited life expectancies. That’s in contrast to 1918, when many young people died.

One can only hope that, much like in 1918, life will continue. Conversely, with lockdowns of months, if not years, life largely stops, short-term and long-term consequences are entirely unknown, and billions, not just millions, of lives may be eventually at stake.

If we decide to jump off the cliff, we need some data to inform us about the rationale of such an action and the chances of landing somewhere safe.

John P.A. Ioannidis is professor of medicine, of epidemiology and population health, of biomedical data science, and of statistics at Stanford University and co-director of Stanford’s Meta-Research Innovation Center.
03-18-2020 01:18 PM
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NIU007 Online
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Post: #35
RE: Corona Virus
(03-18-2020 01:18 PM)jjj Wrote:  Best article yet, from a Professor Of Medicine at Stanford




A fiasco in the making? As the coronavirus pandemic takes hold, we are making decisions without reliable data
By JOHN P.A. IOANNIDIS MARCH 17, 2020



The current coronavirus disease, Covid-19, has been called a once-in-a-century pandemic. But it may also be a once-in-a-century evidence fiasco.

At a time when everyone needs better information, from disease modelers and governments to people quarantined or just social distancing, we lack reliable evidence on how many people have been infected with SARS-CoV-2 or who continue to become infected. Better information is needed to guide decisions and actions of monumental significance and to monitor their impact.

Draconian countermeasures have been adopted in many countries. If the pandemic dissipates — either on its own or because of these measures — short-term extreme social distancing and lockdowns may be bearable. How long, though, should measures like these be continued if the pandemic churns across the globe unabated? How can policymakers tell if they are doing more good than harm?

Vaccines or affordable treatments take many months (or even years) to develop and test properly. Given such timelines, the consequences of long-term lockdowns are entirely unknown.

The data collected so far on how many people are infected and how the epidemic is evolving are utterly unreliable. Given the limited testing to date, some deaths and probably the vast majority of infections due to SARS-CoV-2 are being missed. We don’t know if we are failing to capture infections by a factor of three or 300. Three months after the outbreak emerged, most countries, including the U.S., lack the ability to test a large number of people and no countries have reliable data on the prevalence of the virus in a representative random sample of the general population.

This evidence fiasco creates tremendous uncertainty about the risk of dying from Covid-19. Reported case fatality rates, like the official 3.4% rate from the World Health Organization, cause horror — and are meaningless. Patients who have been tested for SARS-CoV-2 are disproportionately those with severe symptoms and bad outcomes. As most health systems have limited testing capacity, selection bias may even worsen in the near future.

The one situation where an entire, closed population was tested was the Diamond Princess cruise ship and its quarantine passengers. The case fatality rate there was 1.0%, but this was a largely elderly population, in which the death rate from Covid-19 is much higher.

Projecting the Diamond Princess mortality rate onto the age structure of the U.S. population, the death rate among people infected with Covid-19 would be 0.125%. But since this estimate is based on extremely thin data — there were just seven deaths among the 700 infected passengers and crew — the real death rate could stretch from five times lower (0.025%) to five times higher (0.625%). It is also possible that some of the passengers who were infected might die later, and that tourists may have different frequencies of chronic diseases — a risk factor for worse outcomes with SARS-CoV-2 infection — than the general population. Adding these extra sources of uncertainty, reasonable estimates for the case fatality ratio in the general U.S. population vary from 0.05% to 1%.

That huge range markedly affects how severe the pandemic is and what should be done. A population-wide case fatality rate of 0.05% is lower than seasonal influenza. If that is the true rate, locking down the world with potentially tremendous social and financial consequences may be totally irrational. It’s like an elephant being attacked by a house cat. Frustrated and trying to avoid the cat, the elephant accidentally jumps off a cliff and dies.

Could the Covid-19 case fatality rate be that low? No, some say, pointing to the high rate in elderly people. However, even some so-called mild or common-cold-type coronaviruses that have been known for decades can have case fatality rates as high as 8% when they infect elderly people in nursing homes. In fact, such “mild” coronaviruses infect tens of millions of people every year, and account for 3% to 11% of those hospitalized in the U.S. with lower respiratory infections each winter.

These “mild” coronaviruses may be implicated in several thousands of deaths every year worldwide, though the vast majority of them are not documented with precise testing. Instead, they are lost as noise among 60 million deaths from various causes every year.

Although successful surveillance systems have long existed for influenza, the disease is confirmed by a laboratory in a tiny minority of cases. In the U.S., for example, so far this season 1,073,976 specimens have been tested and 222,552 (20.7%) have tested positive for influenza. In the same period, the estimated number of influenza-like illnesses is between 36,000,000 and 51,000,000, with an estimated 22,000 to 55,000 flu deaths.

Note the uncertainty about influenza-like illness deaths: a 2.5-fold range, corresponding to tens of thousands of deaths. Every year, some of these deaths are due to influenza and some to other viruses, like common-cold coronaviruses.

In an autopsy series that tested for respiratory viruses in specimens from 57 elderly persons who died during the 2016 to 2017 influenza season, influenza viruses were detected in 18% of the specimens, while any kind of respiratory virus was found in 47%. In some people who die from viral respiratory pathogens, more than one virus is found upon autopsy and bacteria are often superimposed. A positive test for coronavirus does not mean necessarily that this virus is always primarily responsible for a patient’s demise.

If we assume that case fatality rate among individuals infected by SARS-CoV-2 is 0.3% in the general population — a mid-range guess from my Diamond Princess analysis — and that 1% of the U.S. population gets infected (about 3.3 million people), this would translate to about 10,000 deaths. This sounds like a huge number, but it is buried within the noise of the estimate of deaths from “influenza-like illness.” If we had not known about a new virus out there, and had not checked individuals with PCR tests, the number of total deaths due to “influenza-like illness” would not seem unusual this year. At most, we might have casually noted that flu this season seems to be a bit worse than average. The media coverage would have been less than for an NBA game between the two most indifferent teams.

Some worry that the 68 deaths from Covid-19 in the U.S. as of March 16 will increase exponentially to 680, 6,800, 68,000, 680,000 … along with similar catastrophic patterns around the globe. Is that a realistic scenario, or bad science fiction? How can we tell at what point such a curve might stop?

The most valuable piece of information for answering those questions would be to know the current prevalence of the infection in a random sample of a population and to repeat this exercise at regular time intervals to estimate the incidence of new infections. Sadly, that’s information we don’t have.

In the absence of data, prepare-for-the-worst reasoning leads to extreme measures of social distancing and lockdowns. Unfortunately, we do not know if these measures work. School closures, for example, may reduce transmission rates. But they may also backfire if children socialize anyhow, if school closure leads children to spend more time with susceptible elderly family members, if children at home disrupt their parents ability to work, and more. School closures may also diminish the chances of developing herd immunity in an age group that is spared serious disease.

This has been the perspective behind the different stance of the United Kingdom keeping schools open, at least until as I write this. In the absence of data on the real course of the epidemic, we don’t know whether this perspective was brilliant or catastrophic.

Flattening the curve to avoid overwhelming the health system is conceptually sound — in theory. A visual that has become viral in media and social media shows how flattening the curve reduces the volume of the epidemic that is above the threshold of what the health system can handle at any moment.

Yet if the health system does become overwhelmed, the majority of the extra deaths may not be due to coronavirus but to other common diseases and conditions such as heart attacks, strokes, trauma, bleeding, and the like that are not adequately treated. If the level of the epidemic does overwhelm the health system and extreme measures have only modest effectiveness, then flattening the curve may make things worse: Instead of being overwhelmed during a short, acute phase, the health system will remain overwhelmed for a more protracted period. That’s another reason we need data about the exact level of the epidemic activity.

One of the bottom lines is that we don’t know how long social distancing measures and lockdowns can be maintained without major consequences to the economy, society, and mental health. Unpredictable evolutions may ensue, including financial crisis, unrest, civil strife, war, and a meltdown of the social fabric. At a minimum, we need unbiased prevalence and incidence data for the evolving infectious load to guide decision-making.

In the most pessimistic scenario, which I do not espouse, if the new coronavirus infects 60% of the global population and 1% of the infected people die, that will translate into more than 40 million deaths globally, matching the 1918 influenza pandemic.

The vast majority of this hecatomb would be people with limited life expectancies. That’s in contrast to 1918, when many young people died.

One can only hope that, much like in 1918, life will continue. Conversely, with lockdowns of months, if not years, life largely stops, short-term and long-term consequences are entirely unknown, and billions, not just millions, of lives may be eventually at stake.

If we decide to jump off the cliff, we need some data to inform us about the rationale of such an action and the chances of landing somewhere safe.

John P.A. Ioannidis is professor of medicine, of epidemiology and population health, of biomedical data science, and of statistics at Stanford University and co-director of Stanford’s Meta-Research Innovation Center.

In the absence of the data that he keeps saying we need, what does he suggest we do differently? We will not have that data soon, partly because we apparently decided that we don't need to even test people to see if they have the virus.
(This post was last modified: 03-18-2020 02:02 PM by NIU007.)
03-18-2020 01:54 PM
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Post: #36
RE: Corona Virus
(03-18-2020 01:54 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(03-18-2020 01:18 PM)jjj Wrote:  Best article yet, from a Professor Of Medicine at Stanford




A fiasco in the making? As the coronavirus pandemic takes hold, we are making decisions without reliable data
By JOHN P.A. IOANNIDIS MARCH 17, 2020



The current coronavirus disease, Covid-19, has been called a once-in-a-century pandemic. But it may also be a once-in-a-century evidence fiasco.

At a time when everyone needs better information, from disease modelers and governments to people quarantined or just social distancing, we lack reliable evidence on how many people have been infected with SARS-CoV-2 or who continue to become infected. Better information is needed to guide decisions and actions of monumental significance and to monitor their impact.

Draconian countermeasures have been adopted in many countries. If the pandemic dissipates — either on its own or because of these measures — short-term extreme social distancing and lockdowns may be bearable. How long, though, should measures like these be continued if the pandemic churns across the globe unabated? How can policymakers tell if they are doing more good than harm?

Vaccines or affordable treatments take many months (or even years) to develop and test properly. Given such timelines, the consequences of long-term lockdowns are entirely unknown.

The data collected so far on how many people are infected and how the epidemic is evolving are utterly unreliable. Given the limited testing to date, some deaths and probably the vast majority of infections due to SARS-CoV-2 are being missed. We don’t know if we are failing to capture infections by a factor of three or 300. Three months after the outbreak emerged, most countries, including the U.S., lack the ability to test a large number of people and no countries have reliable data on the prevalence of the virus in a representative random sample of the general population.

This evidence fiasco creates tremendous uncertainty about the risk of dying from Covid-19. Reported case fatality rates, like the official 3.4% rate from the World Health Organization, cause horror — and are meaningless. Patients who have been tested for SARS-CoV-2 are disproportionately those with severe symptoms and bad outcomes. As most health systems have limited testing capacity, selection bias may even worsen in the near future.

The one situation where an entire, closed population was tested was the Diamond Princess cruise ship and its quarantine passengers. The case fatality rate there was 1.0%, but this was a largely elderly population, in which the death rate from Covid-19 is much higher.

Projecting the Diamond Princess mortality rate onto the age structure of the U.S. population, the death rate among people infected with Covid-19 would be 0.125%. But since this estimate is based on extremely thin data — there were just seven deaths among the 700 infected passengers and crew — the real death rate could stretch from five times lower (0.025%) to five times higher (0.625%). It is also possible that some of the passengers who were infected might die later, and that tourists may have different frequencies of chronic diseases — a risk factor for worse outcomes with SARS-CoV-2 infection — than the general population. Adding these extra sources of uncertainty, reasonable estimates for the case fatality ratio in the general U.S. population vary from 0.05% to 1%.

That huge range markedly affects how severe the pandemic is and what should be done. A population-wide case fatality rate of 0.05% is lower than seasonal influenza. If that is the true rate, locking down the world with potentially tremendous social and financial consequences may be totally irrational. It’s like an elephant being attacked by a house cat. Frustrated and trying to avoid the cat, the elephant accidentally jumps off a cliff and dies.

Could the Covid-19 case fatality rate be that low? No, some say, pointing to the high rate in elderly people. However, even some so-called mild or common-cold-type coronaviruses that have been known for decades can have case fatality rates as high as 8% when they infect elderly people in nursing homes. In fact, such “mild” coronaviruses infect tens of millions of people every year, and account for 3% to 11% of those hospitalized in the U.S. with lower respiratory infections each winter.

These “mild” coronaviruses may be implicated in several thousands of deaths every year worldwide, though the vast majority of them are not documented with precise testing. Instead, they are lost as noise among 60 million deaths from various causes every year.

Although successful surveillance systems have long existed for influenza, the disease is confirmed by a laboratory in a tiny minority of cases. In the U.S., for example, so far this season 1,073,976 specimens have been tested and 222,552 (20.7%) have tested positive for influenza. In the same period, the estimated number of influenza-like illnesses is between 36,000,000 and 51,000,000, with an estimated 22,000 to 55,000 flu deaths.

Note the uncertainty about influenza-like illness deaths: a 2.5-fold range, corresponding to tens of thousands of deaths. Every year, some of these deaths are due to influenza and some to other viruses, like common-cold coronaviruses.

In an autopsy series that tested for respiratory viruses in specimens from 57 elderly persons who died during the 2016 to 2017 influenza season, influenza viruses were detected in 18% of the specimens, while any kind of respiratory virus was found in 47%. In some people who die from viral respiratory pathogens, more than one virus is found upon autopsy and bacteria are often superimposed. A positive test for coronavirus does not mean necessarily that this virus is always primarily responsible for a patient’s demise.

If we assume that case fatality rate among individuals infected by SARS-CoV-2 is 0.3% in the general population — a mid-range guess from my Diamond Princess analysis — and that 1% of the U.S. population gets infected (about 3.3 million people), this would translate to about 10,000 deaths. This sounds like a huge number, but it is buried within the noise of the estimate of deaths from “influenza-like illness.” If we had not known about a new virus out there, and had not checked individuals with PCR tests, the number of total deaths due to “influenza-like illness” would not seem unusual this year. At most, we might have casually noted that flu this season seems to be a bit worse than average. The media coverage would have been less than for an NBA game between the two most indifferent teams.

Some worry that the 68 deaths from Covid-19 in the U.S. as of March 16 will increase exponentially to 680, 6,800, 68,000, 680,000 … along with similar catastrophic patterns around the globe. Is that a realistic scenario, or bad science fiction? How can we tell at what point such a curve might stop?

The most valuable piece of information for answering those questions would be to know the current prevalence of the infection in a random sample of a population and to repeat this exercise at regular time intervals to estimate the incidence of new infections. Sadly, that’s information we don’t have.

In the absence of data, prepare-for-the-worst reasoning leads to extreme measures of social distancing and lockdowns. Unfortunately, we do not know if these measures work. School closures, for example, may reduce transmission rates. But they may also backfire if children socialize anyhow, if school closure leads children to spend more time with susceptible elderly family members, if children at home disrupt their parents ability to work, and more. School closures may also diminish the chances of developing herd immunity in an age group that is spared serious disease.

This has been the perspective behind the different stance of the United Kingdom keeping schools open, at least until as I write this. In the absence of data on the real course of the epidemic, we don’t know whether this perspective was brilliant or catastrophic.

Flattening the curve to avoid overwhelming the health system is conceptually sound — in theory. A visual that has become viral in media and social media shows how flattening the curve reduces the volume of the epidemic that is above the threshold of what the health system can handle at any moment.

Yet if the health system does become overwhelmed, the majority of the extra deaths may not be due to coronavirus but to other common diseases and conditions such as heart attacks, strokes, trauma, bleeding, and the like that are not adequately treated. If the level of the epidemic does overwhelm the health system and extreme measures have only modest effectiveness, then flattening the curve may make things worse: Instead of being overwhelmed during a short, acute phase, the health system will remain overwhelmed for a more protracted period. That’s another reason we need data about the exact level of the epidemic activity.

One of the bottom lines is that we don’t know how long social distancing measures and lockdowns can be maintained without major consequences to the economy, society, and mental health. Unpredictable evolutions may ensue, including financial crisis, unrest, civil strife, war, and a meltdown of the social fabric. At a minimum, we need unbiased prevalence and incidence data for the evolving infectious load to guide decision-making.

In the most pessimistic scenario, which I do not espouse, if the new coronavirus infects 60% of the global population and 1% of the infected people die, that will translate into more than 40 million deaths globally, matching the 1918 influenza pandemic.

The vast majority of this hecatomb would be people with limited life expectancies. That’s in contrast to 1918, when many young people died.

One can only hope that, much like in 1918, life will continue. Conversely, with lockdowns of months, if not years, life largely stops, short-term and long-term consequences are entirely unknown, and billions, not just millions, of lives may be eventually at stake.

If we decide to jump off the cliff, we need some data to inform us about the rationale of such an action and the chances of landing somewhere safe.

John P.A. Ioannidis is professor of medicine, of epidemiology and population health, of biomedical data science, and of statistics at Stanford University and co-director of Stanford’s Meta-Research Innovation Center.

In the absence of the data that he keeps saying we need, what does he suggest we do differently? We will not have that data soon, partly because we apparently decided that we don't need to even test people to see if they have the virus.

You can blame Trump's predecessors for that, the infrastructure was not there for widespread testing. The federal response otherwise has been absolutely phenomenal.
03-18-2020 04:46 PM
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NILAW Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Corona Virus
Opinions vary on blaming Trump's predecessors: "Trump was left with global health infrastructure": https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/48...bal-health

Blaming Trump's predecessors might have validity early in his term, but doesn't when he has had more than sufficient time to correct any alleged deficiencies.

Opinions most definitely vary on the sufficiency of the federal response: https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/...nal-crisis

Opinions cannot legitimately vary that what is important is putting aside partisanship and all politicians must work together in the best interest of all Americans.
(This post was last modified: 03-18-2020 07:35 PM by NILAW.)
03-18-2020 07:35 PM
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MaddDawgz02 Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Corona Virus
(03-18-2020 07:35 PM)NILAW Wrote:  Opinions vary on blaming Trump's predecessors: "Trump was left with global health infrastructure": https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/48...bal-health

Blaming Trump's predecessors might have validity early in his term, but doesn't when he has had more than sufficient time to correct any alleged deficiencies.

Opinions most definitely vary on the sufficiency of the federal response: https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/...nal-crisis

Opinions cannot legitimately vary that what is important is putting aside partisanship and all politicians must work together in the best interest of all Americans.

Comparing to Obama's response with the 09 outbreak, several thousand were dead before he declared a national emergency. Amazing how Obama gets a free pass on that in that press, well not really surprising, the press were/are his employees
03-18-2020 09:15 PM
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Post: #39
RE: Corona Virus
(03-18-2020 09:15 PM)MaddDawgz02 Wrote:  
(03-18-2020 07:35 PM)NILAW Wrote:  Opinions vary on blaming Trump's predecessors: "Trump was left with global health infrastructure": https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/48...bal-health

Blaming Trump's predecessors might have validity early in his term, but doesn't when he has had more than sufficient time to correct any alleged deficiencies.

Opinions most definitely vary on the sufficiency of the federal response: https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/...nal-crisis

Opinions cannot legitimately vary that what is important is putting aside partisanship and all politicians must work together in the best interest of all Americans.

Comparing to Obama's response with the 09 outbreak, several thousand were dead before he declared a national emergency. Amazing how Obama gets a free pass on that in that press, well not really surprising, the press were/are his employees

Comparing outbreaks is ridiculous. Fact of the matter is, if Trump had taken this thing seriously back in January and February.....and I mean serious (LIKE HOW HE TOOK THE CARAVAN SERIOUS) Fox News and his cult would have been all about stopping this thing. Instead he called it a "Hoax" "Fake News" "Numbers will be at 0" "It will be gone like a miracle". Trump probably did the most dangerous thing possible and told Fox News and their viewers to ignore this issue. He had them treat it as if it was the impeachment trial, or the Mueller investigations. Both of which would not affect people in their day to to day lives, and a new news cycle would happen and allow him to change the narrative. This thing isn't going anywhere........He's trying to call it a "Chinese Virus" to create his enemy, like Mexicans, Clinton and Obama. Thing is, people know what this thing is now, which is evident by Fox New's complete 180.

Blame Obama all you want for his outbreak, but if he would have said half the things Trump said you would have tried to get his head on a stick a month into his presidency.
03-18-2020 09:59 PM
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MaddDawgz02 Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Corona Virus
(03-18-2020 09:59 PM)Big_Man Wrote:  
(03-18-2020 09:15 PM)MaddDawgz02 Wrote:  
(03-18-2020 07:35 PM)NILAW Wrote:  Opinions vary on blaming Trump's predecessors: "Trump was left with global health infrastructure": https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/48...bal-health

Blaming Trump's predecessors might have validity early in his term, but doesn't when he has had more than sufficient time to correct any alleged deficiencies.

Opinions most definitely vary on the sufficiency of the federal response: https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/...nal-crisis

Opinions cannot legitimately vary that what is important is putting aside partisanship and all politicians must work together in the best interest of all Americans.

Comparing to Obama's response with the 09 outbreak, several thousand were dead before he declared a national emergency. Amazing how Obama gets a free pass on that in that press, well not really surprising, the press were/are his employees

Comparing outbreaks is ridiculous. Fact of the matter is, if Trump had taken this thing seriously back in January and February.....and I mean serious (LIKE HOW HE TOOK THE CARAVAN SERIOUS) Fox News and his cult would have been all about stopping this thing. Instead he called it a "Hoax" "Fake News" "Numbers will be at 0" "It will be gone like a miracle". Trump probably did the most dangerous thing possible and told Fox News and their viewers to ignore this issue. He had them treat it as if it was the impeachment trial, or the Mueller investigations. Both of which would not affect people in their day to to day lives, and a new news cycle would happen and allow him to change the narrative. This thing isn't going anywhere........He's trying to call it a "Chinese Virus" to create his enemy, like Mexicans, Clinton and Obama. Thing is, people know what this thing is now, which is evident by Fox New's complete 180.

Blame Obama all you want for his outbreak, but if he would have said half the things Trump said you would have tried to get his head on a stick a month into his presidency.

Actions speak louder than words, waiting until 1000 dead to declare a national emergency, are you kidding me? If it was not for media protecting Obama.......
03-19-2020 12:46 AM
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