(09-06-2019 01:19 AM)mrbig Wrote: I think this was happening 5-12 years before I was born, so its really hard to contextualize what was happening. Also, I assume the down with pigs comment was directed at police officers, not the police agency. Abolish ICE is directed at the agency. To me, that is a difference. Also, were politicians chanting down with pigs, or was that just rowdy crowds? Again, I'm giving my opinion of what democratic politicians mean when they suggest abolishing ICE.
I think you have decoupled the 'Abolish ICE' completely from the 'heck lets give everyone who is here citizenship' (i.e. the 'pathway to citizenship' phrase) and the people who promulgate the catch and release policy.
I will grant you that there are undoubtedly some who think that ICE is a fermenting toxic hellhole that should be morally equated with the Waffen SS without *any* regard to the stance of 'what a great idea to let every illegal immigrant here completely ignore US law, and not only that lets send them to the absolute front of the entrance line as opposed to the poor slobs that actually go through the process of applying and awaiting their turn' -- or the 'stop searches for illegal immigrants, and only deport the felons' (for the sake of saving keystrokes, the 'open borders crowd').
Simple logic tells you the 'Abolish ICE' people are made up of three groups: the 'toxic fermenters', the 'toxic fermenters who are also open borders', and the 'open borders' (who, mind you, will use the toxic ferment argument as a convenient strawman argument).
The fourth group are 'ICE runs OK' who either dont care about open borders, or actually care about enforcing existing law as it stands. We can write these off the population of chanters for the most part I would assume.
So lets try to ascertain of how many 'Abolish ICE' people have the 'open borders' streak. My guess, based upon the number and amount of calls by politicians for 'pathway to citizenship' and the 'poor plight of the brave people who have braved everything to make it to this country, we really owe it to them to open our doors and hearts to them' calls balanced against the 'ICE is the equivalent of the Waffen SS'
Looking at the statements that politicians make on the 'open borders' side of things versus the 'Waffen SS' statements I think most here can agree that the former outweighs the latter; to a massive extent.
I think it somewhat disingenuous to decouple the groups into mutually exclusive groups like you just did, to be honest.
Quote:I'd suggest not speaking for Democrats, you don't appear to be very good at it. I don't try to speak for Republicans for the same reason. Again, find me the Democratic politician who is for open borders.
Not necessarily 'open borders', but see the above definition. The numbers of Democratic politicians that dont want to extend a 'pathway to citizenship' to those whom circumvented the entire process can be counted on the digits of single individual. Maybe even a one armed and a one legged individual.
Quote:I don't know of any. Most Democrats believe in border security, they just don't believe a wall is the most effective or efficient way to gain security.
The efficacy of any wall has zero overlap with the incessant cry for a 'pathway to citizenship'.
Quote:They also don't believe in family separation of people who are attempting to enter the country legally (asylum seekers).
Is it truly 'legal' when *everyone* is coached to myna bird 'I want asylum'? The asylum process has been utterly hijacked in this manner at this point. Please dont paint *this* aspect as a picture boy perfect innocent situation. Again, I find that disingenuous.
Quote:Those positions have nothing to do with "open borders".
Even though you brought it up as trying to sway emtionally for the defense, the issue that everyone and their dead parents is being coached to abuse the asylum process actually *does* have something to 'open borders'.
Quote:I don't have time to explain to you why restructuring an agency can change the culture of the agency. Same thing that can happen when management changes at a corporation or sports team. Same thing that might happen if you get a new boss at work.
To the extent that ICE may have the pervasive issues that you claim, perhaps there may be a point.
But I dont think it probable in the slightest that the calls for 'Abolish ICE' have *everything* to do with such a supposedly pervasive toxic ferment whatever, and *nothing* to do with a widespread viewpoint that the ability to bypass the current laws is actually justified. And again, I think the viewpoint of the vast, vast majority of the 'Abolish ICE' culture has deep and widespread overlap with the 'open borders' issue that seems to be a pet focus of one side.