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GoodOwl Offline
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Post: #1
2020 Presidential Horse Race Thread
Thought this needed a dedicated thread since it's concerning both the Democrats and the President:

Saw this elsewhere and thought it deserved a home here:

...the dichotomy in the coming election. Here is a more complete lists of the proposals and accomplishments of the two sides. The choice is yours.

Democrat candidates actual proposals;
1) Open borders
2) Abolish ICE
3) Switch from Constitutionally controlled republic to Socialism
4) The Green New Deal
5) Government funded abortions for all
6) Abortions up to the point of birth and infanticide after
7) Increased taxes
8) Elimination of the 2nd Amendment
9) Overhaul of the 1st Amendment
10) Free healthcare for illegal aliens
11) Free college education for all
12) Free healthcare for all
13) Male to female trans abortions rights
14) Voting age lowered to 16-years-old
15) Felons voting from prison
16) Free childcare
17) Guaranteed income even for those unwilling to work
18) Government eliminating all current student debt with tax dollars
19) Expansion (packing) of the Supreme Court
20) Elimination of the Electoral College
21) Reparations for blacks
22) Reparations for gays and lesbians
23) Forced busing of school children
24) Bribe young adults into national service with taxpayer funds
25) Pushing constant racial division

Versus Trump agenda and accomplishments

1) Record stock market
2) Greatly lowered unemployment overall (best in five decades)
3) Record low unemployment for blacks, hispanics, and women
4) Lower taxes
5) Strong border security
6) Renegotiated NAFTA to U.S. advantage
7) Pulled out of unfair Trans-Pacific Partnership
8) First president to deal with unfair trade practices of China
9) Virtual elimination of ISIS and all territory they held
10) Energy independence
11) Middle class wage rising
12) Ending the useless Iran Nuclear Deal
13) Holding NATO financially accountable
14) Elimination of job killing regulations
15) Increase in manufacturing jobs
16) Increased business investment in the U.S.
17) Strengthened military
18) Pushed for and signed Criminal Justice Reform Bill
20) Pushed for and signed First Step Act prison reform bill
21) Withdrew from useless Paris climate deal
22) Promoted first woman to head the CIA
23) Promoted gay man, Rick Grenell, to highest position ever for openly gay man in U.S. government
24) Secured release of 19 people from foreign captivity
25) Enforced President Barack Obama's red line against Syria's use of chemical weapons
08-25-2019 11:07 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #2
RE: 2020 Presidential Horse Race Thread
I will comment on your points.

(08-25-2019 11:07 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  Democrat candidates actual proposals;
1) Open borders - drop-dead show-stopper for me
2) Abolish ICE - drop-dead show-stopper for me
3) Switch from Constitutionally controlled republic to Socialism - I think "switch" is a bit strong, but certainly tending strongly in that direction
4) The Green New Deal - drop-dead show-stopper for me
5) Government funded abortions for all - drop-dead show-stopper for me
6) Abortions up to the point of birth and infanticide after - drop-dead show-stopper for me
7) Increased taxes - we need additional tax revenues to balance the budget, but we are not going to get there by raising tax rates for the "rich" and corporations; I much prefer the Bowles-Simpson/Domenici-Rivlin approach, lower and flatter rates with broader definition of taxable income (fewer exclusions and deductions), with consumption tax (D-R only); this is the logical extension of the Reagan/Bill Bradley/Dick Gephart 1986 tax law
8) Elimination of the 2nd Amendment - I wouldn't say eliminate. but definitely emasculate, and for something that won't work; without te 2nd Amendment, all the rest are worthless; drop-dead show-stopper for me
9) Overhaul of the 1st Amendment - without the 1st and 2nd (and 4th and 10th, which both parties seem fine with ending) Amendments, all the rest are really, really worthless; drop-dead show-stopper for me
10) Free healthcare for illegal aliens - drop-dead show-stopper for me
11) Free college education for all - drop-dead show-stopper for me; not everybody needs to go to university; we need to beef up our vocational education at both the HS and community college levels
12) Free healthcare for all - do Bismarck universal private care and be done and dusted; single-payer/single-provider is a drop-dead show-stopper for me
13) Male to female trans abortions rights - drop-dead show-stopper for me
14) Voting age lowered to 16-years-old - oppose
15) Felons voting from prison - drop-dead show-stopper for me
16) Free childcare - this is not really a bad idea; we need to reorient our whole welfare system toward getting people to work, and this helps that
17) Guaranteed income even for those unwilling to work - I support replacing our current welfare system with a subsistence level universal basic income, using either Milton Friedman's negative income tax or the Boortz-Linder prebate/prefund; that plus Bismarck health care plus a minimum wage job (at today's MW) would put anyone above the poverty line; nobody falls through the cracks, and you eliminate the "welfare trap"/"poverty trap"; that's not what democrats are talking about here, and their approach is another drop-dead show-stopper for me
18) Government eliminating all current student debt with tax dollars - drop-dead show-stopper for me
19) Expansion (packing) of the Supreme Court - I'd go with 12 justices, one from each federal judicial circuit and one from the DC Circuit, to get some intellectual diversity; senior justice would be Chief Justice and non-voting except to break a tie (which can only happen with 11 if there is a vacancy or somebody recuses)
20) Elimination of the Electoral College - drop-dead show-stopper for me
21) Reparations for blacks - drop-dead show-stopper for me
22) Reparations for gays and lesbians - drop-dead show-stopper for me
23) Forced busing of school children - I don't think this is necessarily all bad, but there should be other alternatives
24) Bribe young adults into national service with taxpayer funds - I think the bribe things like debt forgiveness are awful; but what I would support is some sort of two-year universal service requirement, that could be military, Peace Corps, AmeriCorps VISTA, or the like; that's very un-libertarian of me, but I am very concerned about division in this country, and this strikes me as one way to fix it; as a Vietnam vet acquaintance once told me, "It's hard to be a racist after a black man drags your ass out off a rice paddy"
25) Pushing constant racial division - yes, they do, and this is a drop-dead show-stopper for me

I won't comment on Trump, because I'm not a fan--except by comparison to the alternatives.
08-26-2019 06:54 AM
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GoodOwl Offline
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Post: #3
RE: 2020 Presidential Horse Race Thread
(08-26-2019 06:54 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I will comment on your points.

(08-25-2019 11:07 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  Democrat candidates actual proposals;
1) Open borders - drop-dead show-stopper for me
2) Abolish ICE - drop-dead show-stopper for me
3) Switch from Constitutionally controlled republic to Socialism - I think "switch" is a bit strong, but certainly tending strongly in that direction
4) The Green New Deal - drop-dead show-stopper for me
5) Government funded abortions for all - drop-dead show-stopper for me
6) Abortions up to the point of birth and infanticide after - drop-dead show-stopper for me
7) Increased taxes - we need additional tax revenues to balance the budget, but we are not going to get there by raising tax rates for the "rich" and corporations; I much prefer the Bowles-Simpson/Domenici-Rivlin approach, lower and flatter rates with broader definition of taxable income (fewer exclusions and deductions), with consumption tax (D-R only); this is the logical extension of the Reagan/Bill Bradley/Dick Gephart 1986 tax law
8) Elimination of the 2nd Amendment - I wouldn't say eliminate. but definitely emasculate, and for something that won't work; without te 2nd Amendment, all the rest are worthless; drop-dead show-stopper for me
9) Overhaul of the 1st Amendment - without the 1st and 2nd (and 4th and 10th, which both parties seem fine with ending) Amendments, all the rest are really, really worthless; drop-dead show-stopper for me
10) Free healthcare for illegal aliens - drop-dead show-stopper for me
11) Free college education for all - drop-dead show-stopper for me; not everybody needs to go to university; we need to beef up our vocational education at both the HS and community college levels
12) Free healthcare for all - do Bismarck universal private care and be done and dusted; single-payer/single-provider is a drop-dead show-stopper for me
13) Male to female trans abortions rights - drop-dead show-stopper for me
14) Voting age lowered to 16-years-old - oppose
15) Felons voting from prison - drop-dead show-stopper for me
16) Free childcare - this is not really a bad idea; we need to reorient our whole welfare system toward getting people to work, and this helps that
17) Guaranteed income even for those unwilling to work - I support replacing our current welfare system with a subsistence level universal basic income, using either Milton Friedman's negative income tax or the Boortz-Linder prebate/prefund; that plus Bismarck health care plus a minimum wage job (at today's MW) would put anyone above the poverty line; nobody falls through the cracks, and you eliminate the "welfare trap"/"poverty trap"; that's not what democrats are talking about here, and their approach is another drop-dead show-stopper for me
18) Government eliminating all current student debt with tax dollars - drop-dead show-stopper for me
19) Expansion (packing) of the Supreme Court - I'd go with 12 justices, one from each federal judicial circuit and one from the DC Circuit, to get some intellectual diversity; senior justice would be Chief Justice and non-voting except to break a tie (which can only happen with 11 if there is a vacancy or somebody recuses)
20) Elimination of the Electoral College - drop-dead show-stopper for me
21) Reparations for blacks - drop-dead show-stopper for me
22) Reparations for gays and lesbians - drop-dead show-stopper for me
23) Forced busing of school children - I don't think this is necessarily all bad, but there should be other alternatives
24) Bribe young adults into national service with taxpayer funds - I think the bribe things like debt forgiveness are awful; but what I would support is some sort of two-year universal service requirement, that could be military, Peace Corps, AmeriCorps VISTA, or the like; that's very un-libertarian of me, but I am very concerned about division in this country, and this strikes me as one way to fix it; as a Vietnam vet acquaintance once told me, "It's hard to be a racist after a black man drags your ass out off a rice paddy"
25) Pushing constant racial division - yes, they do, and this is a drop-dead show-stopper for me

I won't comment on Trump, because I'm not a fan--except by comparison to the alternatives.

I appreciate the clarity your response provides. Would be interested in the same from, say Lad, among others, if they'd care to comment as you did. Thanks, Owl#s.
08-26-2019 01:31 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #4
RE: 2020 Presidential Horse Race Thread
(08-26-2019 01:31 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  
(08-26-2019 06:54 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I will comment on your points.

(08-25-2019 11:07 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  Democrat candidates actual proposals;
1) Open borders - drop-dead show-stopper for me
2) Abolish ICE - drop-dead show-stopper for me
3) Switch from Constitutionally controlled republic to Socialism - I think "switch" is a bit strong, but certainly tending strongly in that direction
4) The Green New Deal - drop-dead show-stopper for me
5) Government funded abortions for all - drop-dead show-stopper for me
6) Abortions up to the point of birth and infanticide after - drop-dead show-stopper for me
7) Increased taxes - we need additional tax revenues to balance the budget, but we are not going to get there by raising tax rates for the "rich" and corporations; I much prefer the Bowles-Simpson/Domenici-Rivlin approach, lower and flatter rates with broader definition of taxable income (fewer exclusions and deductions), with consumption tax (D-R only); this is the logical extension of the Reagan/Bill Bradley/Dick Gephart 1986 tax law
8) Elimination of the 2nd Amendment - I wouldn't say eliminate. but definitely emasculate, and for something that won't work; without te 2nd Amendment, all the rest are worthless; drop-dead show-stopper for me
9) Overhaul of the 1st Amendment - without the 1st and 2nd (and 4th and 10th, which both parties seem fine with ending) Amendments, all the rest are really, really worthless; drop-dead show-stopper for me
10) Free healthcare for illegal aliens - drop-dead show-stopper for me
11) Free college education for all - drop-dead show-stopper for me; not everybody needs to go to university; we need to beef up our vocational education at both the HS and community college levels
12) Free healthcare for all - do Bismarck universal private care and be done and dusted; single-payer/single-provider is a drop-dead show-stopper for me
13) Male to female trans abortions rights - drop-dead show-stopper for me
14) Voting age lowered to 16-years-old - oppose
15) Felons voting from prison - drop-dead show-stopper for me
16) Free childcare - this is not really a bad idea; we need to reorient our whole welfare system toward getting people to work, and this helps that
17) Guaranteed income even for those unwilling to work - I support replacing our current welfare system with a subsistence level universal basic income, using either Milton Friedman's negative income tax or the Boortz-Linder prebate/prefund; that plus Bismarck health care plus a minimum wage job (at today's MW) would put anyone above the poverty line; nobody falls through the cracks, and you eliminate the "welfare trap"/"poverty trap"; that's not what democrats are talking about here, and their approach is another drop-dead show-stopper for me
18) Government eliminating all current student debt with tax dollars - drop-dead show-stopper for me
19) Expansion (packing) of the Supreme Court - I'd go with 12 justices, one from each federal judicial circuit and one from the DC Circuit, to get some intellectual diversity; senior justice would be Chief Justice and non-voting except to break a tie (which can only happen with 11 if there is a vacancy or somebody recuses)
20) Elimination of the Electoral College - drop-dead show-stopper for me
21) Reparations for blacks - drop-dead show-stopper for me
22) Reparations for gays and lesbians - drop-dead show-stopper for me
23) Forced busing of school children - I don't think this is necessarily all bad, but there should be other alternatives
24) Bribe young adults into national service with taxpayer funds - I think the bribe things like debt forgiveness are awful; but what I would support is some sort of two-year universal service requirement, that could be military, Peace Corps, AmeriCorps VISTA, or the like; that's very un-libertarian of me, but I am very concerned about division in this country, and this strikes me as one way to fix it; as a Vietnam vet acquaintance once told me, "It's hard to be a racist after a black man drags your ass out off a rice paddy"
25) Pushing constant racial division - yes, they do, and this is a drop-dead show-stopper for me

I won't comment on Trump, because I'm not a fan--except by comparison to the alternatives.

I appreciate the clarity your response provides. Would be interested in the same from, say Lad, among others, if they'd care to comment as you did. Thanks, Owl#s.

I'm not touching that list with a 10-ft pole. It's a bad-faith, incredibly biased request and you know it.

If you actually pull together a thoughtful list of proposals from Dem candidates, I'll respond. But when the first line of a list about what Democratic candidates want, starts with "Open Borders," continues with wanting to eliminate the 2nd amendment, includes "switch to socialism," I am not going to waste any mental capacity on it, because you obviously didn't either.
08-26-2019 02:06 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #5
RE: 2020 Presidential Horse Race Thread
(08-26-2019 02:06 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-26-2019 01:31 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  
(08-26-2019 06:54 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I will comment on your points.

(08-25-2019 11:07 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  Democrat candidates actual proposals;
1) Open borders - drop-dead show-stopper for me
2) Abolish ICE - drop-dead show-stopper for me
3) Switch from Constitutionally controlled republic to Socialism - I think "switch" is a bit strong, but certainly tending strongly in that direction
4) The Green New Deal - drop-dead show-stopper for me
5) Government funded abortions for all - drop-dead show-stopper for me
6) Abortions up to the point of birth and infanticide after - drop-dead show-stopper for me
7) Increased taxes - we need additional tax revenues to balance the budget, but we are not going to get there by raising tax rates for the "rich" and corporations; I much prefer the Bowles-Simpson/Domenici-Rivlin approach, lower and flatter rates with broader definition of taxable income (fewer exclusions and deductions), with consumption tax (D-R only); this is the logical extension of the Reagan/Bill Bradley/Dick Gephart 1986 tax law
8) Elimination of the 2nd Amendment - I wouldn't say eliminate. but definitely emasculate, and for something that won't work; without te 2nd Amendment, all the rest are worthless; drop-dead show-stopper for me
9) Overhaul of the 1st Amendment - without the 1st and 2nd (and 4th and 10th, which both parties seem fine with ending) Amendments, all the rest are really, really worthless; drop-dead show-stopper for me
10) Free healthcare for illegal aliens - drop-dead show-stopper for me
11) Free college education for all - drop-dead show-stopper for me; not everybody needs to go to university; we need to beef up our vocational education at both the HS and community college levels
12) Free healthcare for all - do Bismarck universal private care and be done and dusted; single-payer/single-provider is a drop-dead show-stopper for me
13) Male to female trans abortions rights - drop-dead show-stopper for me
14) Voting age lowered to 16-years-old - oppose
15) Felons voting from prison - drop-dead show-stopper for me
16) Free childcare - this is not really a bad idea; we need to reorient our whole welfare system toward getting people to work, and this helps that
17) Guaranteed income even for those unwilling to work - I support replacing our current welfare system with a subsistence level universal basic income, using either Milton Friedman's negative income tax or the Boortz-Linder prebate/prefund; that plus Bismarck health care plus a minimum wage job (at today's MW) would put anyone above the poverty line; nobody falls through the cracks, and you eliminate the "welfare trap"/"poverty trap"; that's not what democrats are talking about here, and their approach is another drop-dead show-stopper for me
18) Government eliminating all current student debt with tax dollars - drop-dead show-stopper for me
19) Expansion (packing) of the Supreme Court - I'd go with 12 justices, one from each federal judicial circuit and one from the DC Circuit, to get some intellectual diversity; senior justice would be Chief Justice and non-voting except to break a tie (which can only happen with 11 if there is a vacancy or somebody recuses)
20) Elimination of the Electoral College - drop-dead show-stopper for me
21) Reparations for blacks - drop-dead show-stopper for me
22) Reparations for gays and lesbians - drop-dead show-stopper for me
23) Forced busing of school children - I don't think this is necessarily all bad, but there should be other alternatives
24) Bribe young adults into national service with taxpayer funds - I think the bribe things like debt forgiveness are awful; but what I would support is some sort of two-year universal service requirement, that could be military, Peace Corps, AmeriCorps VISTA, or the like; that's very un-libertarian of me, but I am very concerned about division in this country, and this strikes me as one way to fix it; as a Vietnam vet acquaintance once told me, "It's hard to be a racist after a black man drags your ass out off a rice paddy"
25) Pushing constant racial division - yes, they do, and this is a drop-dead show-stopper for me
I won't comment on Trump, because I'm not a fan--except by comparison to the alternatives.
I appreciate the clarity your response provides. Would be interested in the same from, say Lad, among others, if they'd care to comment as you did. Thanks, Owl#s.
I'm not touching that list with a 10-ft pole. It's a bad-faith, incredibly biased request and you know it.
If you actually pull together a thoughtful list of proposals from Dem candidates, I'll respond. But when the first line of a list about what Democratic candidates want, starts with "Open Borders," continues with wanting to eliminate the 2nd amendment, includes "switch to socialism," I am not going to waste any mental capacity on it, because you obviously didn't either.

Why don’t you pull together what you believe to be a thoughtful list of what you believe democrat candidates want? I think some of Good Owl’s list may be a bit hyperbolic, and I so stayed where I felt that. You apparently think it’s totally off-base, so what do you think is on base?
08-26-2019 02:23 PM
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Fort Bend Owl Offline
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RE: 2020 Presidential Horse Race Thread
#1 on my wish list for any Democratic candidate is Climate Change. #'s won't like Yang's plan announced today because it does feature many of the same things in the Green New Deal. But you can easily search for it online if you want.

I sure would like to see Trump do something about Climate Change, other than ignore it and make fun of other people's plans. Or he can just skip meetings on it like he did today at G7. Getting out of the Paris Accord is not a plan.
08-26-2019 02:44 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #7
RE: 2020 Presidential Horse Race Thread
(08-26-2019 02:23 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(08-26-2019 02:06 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-26-2019 01:31 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  
(08-26-2019 06:54 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I will comment on your points.

(08-25-2019 11:07 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  Democrat candidates actual proposals;
1) Open borders - drop-dead show-stopper for me
2) Abolish ICE - drop-dead show-stopper for me
3) Switch from Constitutionally controlled republic to Socialism - I think "switch" is a bit strong, but certainly tending strongly in that direction
4) The Green New Deal - drop-dead show-stopper for me
5) Government funded abortions for all - drop-dead show-stopper for me
6) Abortions up to the point of birth and infanticide after - drop-dead show-stopper for me
7) Increased taxes - we need additional tax revenues to balance the budget, but we are not going to get there by raising tax rates for the "rich" and corporations; I much prefer the Bowles-Simpson/Domenici-Rivlin approach, lower and flatter rates with broader definition of taxable income (fewer exclusions and deductions), with consumption tax (D-R only); this is the logical extension of the Reagan/Bill Bradley/Dick Gephart 1986 tax law
8) Elimination of the 2nd Amendment - I wouldn't say eliminate. but definitely emasculate, and for something that won't work; without te 2nd Amendment, all the rest are worthless; drop-dead show-stopper for me
9) Overhaul of the 1st Amendment - without the 1st and 2nd (and 4th and 10th, which both parties seem fine with ending) Amendments, all the rest are really, really worthless; drop-dead show-stopper for me
10) Free healthcare for illegal aliens - drop-dead show-stopper for me
11) Free college education for all - drop-dead show-stopper for me; not everybody needs to go to university; we need to beef up our vocational education at both the HS and community college levels
12) Free healthcare for all - do Bismarck universal private care and be done and dusted; single-payer/single-provider is a drop-dead show-stopper for me
13) Male to female trans abortions rights - drop-dead show-stopper for me
14) Voting age lowered to 16-years-old - oppose
15) Felons voting from prison - drop-dead show-stopper for me
16) Free childcare - this is not really a bad idea; we need to reorient our whole welfare system toward getting people to work, and this helps that
17) Guaranteed income even for those unwilling to work - I support replacing our current welfare system with a subsistence level universal basic income, using either Milton Friedman's negative income tax or the Boortz-Linder prebate/prefund; that plus Bismarck health care plus a minimum wage job (at today's MW) would put anyone above the poverty line; nobody falls through the cracks, and you eliminate the "welfare trap"/"poverty trap"; that's not what democrats are talking about here, and their approach is another drop-dead show-stopper for me
18) Government eliminating all current student debt with tax dollars - drop-dead show-stopper for me
19) Expansion (packing) of the Supreme Court - I'd go with 12 justices, one from each federal judicial circuit and one from the DC Circuit, to get some intellectual diversity; senior justice would be Chief Justice and non-voting except to break a tie (which can only happen with 11 if there is a vacancy or somebody recuses)
20) Elimination of the Electoral College - drop-dead show-stopper for me
21) Reparations for blacks - drop-dead show-stopper for me
22) Reparations for gays and lesbians - drop-dead show-stopper for me
23) Forced busing of school children - I don't think this is necessarily all bad, but there should be other alternatives
24) Bribe young adults into national service with taxpayer funds - I think the bribe things like debt forgiveness are awful; but what I would support is some sort of two-year universal service requirement, that could be military, Peace Corps, AmeriCorps VISTA, or the like; that's very un-libertarian of me, but I am very concerned about division in this country, and this strikes me as one way to fix it; as a Vietnam vet acquaintance once told me, "It's hard to be a racist after a black man drags your ass out off a rice paddy"
25) Pushing constant racial division - yes, they do, and this is a drop-dead show-stopper for me
I won't comment on Trump, because I'm not a fan--except by comparison to the alternatives.
I appreciate the clarity your response provides. Would be interested in the same from, say Lad, among others, if they'd care to comment as you did. Thanks, Owl#s.
I'm not touching that list with a 10-ft pole. It's a bad-faith, incredibly biased request and you know it.
If you actually pull together a thoughtful list of proposals from Dem candidates, I'll respond. But when the first line of a list about what Democratic candidates want, starts with "Open Borders," continues with wanting to eliminate the 2nd amendment, includes "switch to socialism," I am not going to waste any mental capacity on it, because you obviously didn't either.

Why don’t you pull together what you believe to be a thoughtful list of what you believe democrat candidates want? I think some of Good Owl’s list may be a bit hyperbolic, and I so stayed where I felt that. You apparently think it’s totally off-base, so what do you think is on base?

It isn't totally off base. Some of the bolded items are generally held by the entire party. But plenty of it is either completely off base, only held by a few candidates in a loaded field (see UBI - haven't seen anyone outside of Yang propose it), an intentional misrepresentation of the position, or not even a position that is really agreed upon or held, but debated about.
08-26-2019 02:51 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #8
RE: 2020 Presidential Horse Race Thread
(08-26-2019 02:44 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  #1 on my wish list for any Democratic candidate is Climate Change. #'s won't like Yang's plan announced today because it does feature many of the same things in the Green New Deal. But you can easily search for it online if you want.

I sure would like to see Trump do something about Climate Change, other than ignore it and make fun of other people's plans. Or he can just skip meetings on it like he did today at G7. Getting out of the Paris Accord is not a plan.

What “something’s” would you like to see done.

I think the US working unilaterally to provide a good example is like declaring the northeast 12 sq. Ft. Of a room to be the no smoking section. Doesn’t Do much for the room as a whole. And the smokers don’t care about examples.

Even if the whole world worked together, they cannot reverse all of even the anthropogenic part of change. Some or most of it is natural, just as it was 500, or 500,000 years ago.


Is it so bad for Greenland to be green again, as it was 1,000 years ago?

So, what you want Trump or a Democratic replacement to do to save the world?
08-26-2019 02:55 PM
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Fort Bend Owl Offline
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Post: #9
RE: 2020 Presidential Horse Race Thread
https://www.yang2020.com/blog/climate-change/

It's a long read. And you won't like it. There's a lot of radical stuff in there. But the basic five goals are

Build a sustainable economy by transitioning away from fossil fuels to renewable energy, upgrading our infrastructure, and improving the way we farm and use land. Public financing options will allow individuals to make the right decisions for their families.

Build a sustainable world. The United States, throughout history, has led the world in times of crisis. We’re the most entrepreneurial country in the history of the world. It’s time to activate the American imagination and work ethic to provide the innovation and technology that will power the rest of the world.

Move our people to higher ground. Natural disasters and other effects of climate change are already causing damage and death. We need to adapt our country to this new reality.

Reverse the damage we’ve done. Research needs to be done on removing carbon from our atmosphere, cooling the planet and rejuvenating ecosystems.

Hold future administrations accountable. We need to pass a constitutional amendment that creates a duty on the federal and state governments to be stewards for the environment.
08-26-2019 03:05 PM
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Post: #10
RE: 2020 Presidential Horse Race Thread
(08-26-2019 03:05 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  https://www.yang2020.com/blog/climate-change/

It's a long read. And you won't like it. There's a lot of radical stuff in there. But the basic five goals are

Build a sustainable economy by transitioning away from fossil fuels to renewable energy, upgrading our infrastructure, and improving the way we farm and use land. Public financing options will allow individuals to make the right decisions for their families.

Long tern,no bad ideas. Short term, unaffordable. What’s the long term? Longer than than you, the AOC cadre, or any current Democrat proposes.

Quote:Build a sustainable world. The United States, throughout history, has led the world in times of crisis. We’re the most entrepreneurial country in the history of the world. It’s time to activate the American imagination and work ethic to provide the innovation and technology that will power the rest of the world.

Rah rah, sis boom bah, we can do it!!

Just cheerleading along with you.
Quote:Move our people to higher ground. Natural disasters and other effects of climate change are already causing damage and death. We need to adapt our country to this new reality.

Prepare for the new future . I agree. Preparing for the future does not mean spending time and money trying to turn the clock back.
Quote:Reverse the damage we’ve done. Research needs to be done on removing carbon from our atmosphere, cooling the planet and rejuvenating ecosystems.

OK, back to turning back the clock. To what date? The first gas powered engine? The first cow fart? Before the first Native American campfire? Give us the goal.
Quote:Hold future administrations accountable. We need to pass a constitutional amendment that creates a duty on the federal and state governments to be stewards for the environment.

How would this amendment read?
08-26-2019 04:35 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #11
RE: 2020 Presidential Horse Race Thread
(08-26-2019 03:05 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  https://www.yang2020.com/blog/climate-change/
It's a long read. And you won't like it. There's a lot of radical stuff in there. But the basic five goals are
Build a sustainable economy by transitioning away from fossil fuels to renewable energy, upgrading our infrastructure, and improving the way we farm and use land. Public financing options will allow individuals to make the right decisions for their families.
Build a sustainable world. The United States, throughout history, has led the world in times of crisis. We’re the most entrepreneurial country in the history of the world. It’s time to activate the American imagination and work ethic to provide the innovation and technology that will power the rest of the world.
Move our people to higher ground. Natural disasters and other effects of climate change are already causing damage and death. We need to adapt our country to this new reality.
Reverse the damage we’ve done. Research needs to be done on removing carbon from our atmosphere, cooling the planet and rejuvenating ecosystems.
Hold future administrations accountable. We need to pass a constitutional amendment that creates a duty on the federal and state governments to be stewards for the environment.

The lofty platitudes sound great. Who doesn't want a sustainable world?

But the devil is in the details. And the details are invariably ever greater intrusion of the government--specifically the federal government--in ways that have never, ever, in the history of the planet, worked.

Bottom line is it's fine for us to say that we will accept some economic degradation to accomplish minuscule improvement in the climate change arena. The problem is that for half the world's population, even minor economic degradation means they starve, or do without closing, or shelter, or all three. And it we don't get that half onboard with what we do, our efforts are worse than meaningless.
08-26-2019 05:25 PM
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Fort Bend Owl Offline
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Post: #12
RE: 2020 Presidential Horse Race Thread
Here's an appropriate news link from today.

Indonesia announced today that they are going to try to move their capital city from Jakarta to a remote jungle area to the east of Borneo island. The ambitious project is expected to cost about $34 billion dollars and take 10 years to accomplish, but both of those numbers seem low to me.

They have to do it though because Jakarta (population 10 million, 30 million in the metro area) is sinking into the Java Sea at an alarming rate - partly through climate related issues (flooding) but mostly because of poor planning (such as Indonesia over-extracting groundwater).

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/indon...index.html
08-26-2019 07:34 PM
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Post: #13
RE: 2020 Presidential Horse Race Thread
Not directly related to the primary horse race, per se, but an interesting dive on the history of presidents running for reelection. Win or lose - the results are often not close.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/p...gers-rare/
08-26-2019 09:54 PM
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Post: #14
RE: 2020 Presidential Horse Race Thread
(08-26-2019 09:54 PM)gsloth Wrote:  Not directly related to the primary horse race, per se, but an interesting dive on the history of presidents running for reelection. Win or lose - the results are often not close.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/p...gers-rare/

Contrary to the headline, nearly all of those elections were pretty close in at least one important measure, with the victor winning either a slight majority, or less than a majority, of the popular vote.
08-27-2019 05:08 PM
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Post: #15
RE: 2020 Presidential Horse Race Thread
Preferences

Biden, the candidate whose entire platform is is "I can beat Trump", is also the diversity candidate now.

Who says the Democrats are not the Identity Party?

"Even before he officially joined the race, many Democrats who are supporting him expressed hope that he would pick a woman or person of color for the ticket."

Maybe Harris can be #2 if she is not #1. Checks all the important (to Democrats) boxes.
(This post was last modified: 08-28-2019 09:07 AM by OptimisticOwl.)
08-28-2019 09:03 AM
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Post: #16
RE: 2020 Presidential Horse Race Thread
(08-28-2019 09:03 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Preferences

Biden, the candidate whose entire platform is is "I can beat Trump", is also the diversity candidate now.

Who says the Democrats are not the Identity Party?

"Even before he officially joined the race, many Democrats who are supporting him expressed hope that he would pick a woman or person of color for the ticket."

Maybe Harris can be #2 if she is not #1. Checks all the important (to Democrats) boxes.

John McCain clearly thought it important to have someone other than a white male on the ticket.

Edit: I would be surprised if Harris would choose to be a VP under Biden (at least given her choice to devote part of her speaking time at the first debate to lambast Biden on an issue that few voters care about).
(This post was last modified: 08-28-2019 09:54 AM by westsidewolf1989.)
08-28-2019 09:43 AM
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Post: #17
RE: 2020 Presidential Horse Race Thread
(08-28-2019 09:43 AM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  
(08-28-2019 09:03 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Preferences

Biden, the candidate whose entire platform is is "I can beat Trump", is also the diversity candidate now.

Who says the Democrats are not the Identity Party?

"Even before he officially joined the race, many Democrats who are supporting him expressed hope that he would pick a woman or person of color for the ticket."

Maybe Harris can be #2 if she is not #1. Checks all the important (to Democrats) boxes.

John McCain clearly thought it important to have someone other than a white male on the ticket.

Edit: I would be surprised if Harris would choose to be a VP under Biden (at least given her choice to devote part of her speaking time at the first debate to lambast Biden on an issue that few voters care about).

\Did McCain make choosing a woman/POC a part of his campaign for the nomination, like several of the Dems have done? Was it even a topic?

At least McCain chose somebody with executive experience.

As for Harris, I suspect she will find Biden much more palatable if he wins the nomination and asks her to run.

One thing we can be sure of - the Dems will do all they can to avoid two white men on the ticket. Gotta have a minority. Doesn't matter what they believe or what they have done or what they will do. Just race/sex.

Although Buttegieg might work.

Still a horse race.
08-28-2019 10:04 AM
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Post: #18
RE: 2020 Presidential Horse Race Thread
(08-28-2019 10:04 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(08-28-2019 09:43 AM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  
(08-28-2019 09:03 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Preferences

Biden, the candidate whose entire platform is is "I can beat Trump", is also the diversity candidate now.

Who says the Democrats are not the Identity Party?

"Even before he officially joined the race, many Democrats who are supporting him expressed hope that he would pick a woman or person of color for the ticket."

Maybe Harris can be #2 if she is not #1. Checks all the important (to Democrats) boxes.

John McCain clearly thought it important to have someone other than a white male on the ticket.

Edit: I would be surprised if Harris would choose to be a VP under Biden (at least given her choice to devote part of her speaking time at the first debate to lambast Biden on an issue that few voters care about).

\Did McCain make choosing a woman/POC a part of his campaign for the nomination, like several of the Dems have done? Was it even a topic?

At least McCain chose somebody with executive experience.

As for Harris, I suspect she will find Biden much more palatable if he wins the nomination and asks her to run.

One thing we can be sure of - the Dems will do all they can to avoid two white men on the ticket. Gotta have a minority. Doesn't matter what they believe or what they have done or what they will do. Just race/sex.

Although Buttegieg might work.

Still a horse race.

OO, aren't you the one that constantly states that it is pre-ordained that Harris will be the presidential nominee b/c the Dems are the Identity Party?
08-28-2019 12:57 PM
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Post: #19
RE: 2020 Presidential Horse Race Thread
(08-28-2019 12:57 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(08-28-2019 10:04 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(08-28-2019 09:43 AM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  
(08-28-2019 09:03 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Preferences

Biden, the candidate whose entire platform is is "I can beat Trump", is also the diversity candidate now.

Who says the Democrats are not the Identity Party?

"Even before he officially joined the race, many Democrats who are supporting him expressed hope that he would pick a woman or person of color for the ticket."

Maybe Harris can be #2 if she is not #1. Checks all the important (to Democrats) boxes.

John McCain clearly thought it important to have someone other than a white male on the ticket.

Edit: I would be surprised if Harris would choose to be a VP under Biden (at least given her choice to devote part of her speaking time at the first debate to lambast Biden on an issue that few voters care about).

\Did McCain make choosing a woman/POC a part of his campaign for the nomination, like several of the Dems have done? Was it even a topic?

At least McCain chose somebody with executive experience.

As for Harris, I suspect she will find Biden much more palatable if he wins the nomination and asks her to run.

One thing we can be sure of - the Dems will do all they can to avoid two white men on the ticket. Gotta have a minority. Doesn't matter what they believe or what they have done or what they will do. Just race/sex.

Although Buttegieg might work.

Still a horse race.

OO, aren't you the one that constantly states that it is pre-ordained that Harris will be the presidential nominee b/c the Dems are the Identity Party?

True, the Democrats are preoccupied with getting a POC or woman on the ballot, preferably at the top, regardless of qualifications or lack thereof, and since she fits both demographics, it just makes sense that she would be a front runner.

As in any horse race, it isn't over til its over. See thread title. I certainly would have her in my exacta box.

Which of her stances on issues do you think has thrust her into the top five? Which of her achievements brought her name up in the first case?

Answers: none, and none.

And why does my pointing out that the Democrats are all wrapped up in identity irritate you? The sun rises, the sun sets, the tide comes in, the tide goes out, Democrats are wrapped up in identity. Three things eternal.
(This post was last modified: 08-28-2019 01:25 PM by OptimisticOwl.)
08-28-2019 01:24 PM
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Fort Bend Owl Offline
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Post: #20
RE: 2020 Presidential Horse Race Thread
Harris would be happy I think to accept the #2 under Biden. First off, who knows if he'd last 4 years? Secondly, the chances of him being in the White House for 8 is very, very slim.
08-28-2019 01:51 PM
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