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P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
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whittx Offline
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Post: #81
RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-16-2019 11:57 AM)bullet Wrote:  I don't know that its so much the company pre-1945 (although for Vandy, Duke and Wake Forest it is), but that the schools were big time football schools before the NFL got established. So they developed a tradition that continued into the generations that may have followed NFL football more. The smaller schools like Rice and SMU couldn't continue at the same level when the NFL moved in. A larger school like UCLA might have slipped, but it had tons of alumni. The Ivy League schools also found their support diminished when the NFL came in and they mostly weren't big enough to continue at the top level. Harvard, Yale and Penn might have, but they weren't interested in leaving the rest of the Ivy League behind.

Meanwhile someone like Houston established in the 1940s didn't have the pre-war alumni and most of its alumni grew up in the NFL era. They didn't already have that tradition established. So while UCLA may struggle compared to their success, that struggle is 50k/game while Houston does well to get 40k. UConn always was small time in the Yankee Conference even though they have played for a long time. Yale was the big program in Connecticut, so UConn has the same issue as UH.

Cornell could have pulled it off as the NY Land Grant institution if they had walked away from the Ivy League, but Syracuse wound up being that school instead, since there was only enough money for one Upstate NY power team
08-16-2019 01:26 PM
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Fighting Muskie Online
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Post: #82
RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-14-2019 09:45 AM)orangefan Wrote:  
(08-14-2019 08:18 AM)Midwestan Wrote:  Thanks for the responses orangefan, slhNavy91, and esayem. I'm sort of an old coot and don't remember as much as I used to. I do remember that the Atlantic 10 was known as the Eastern 8 when it stared in the mid-70's! A top-tier Eastern Football League as envisioned by JoePa would have been a stretch, given that Army and Navy have small enrollments that are basically capped compared to their larger D-1 neighbors. I couldn't remember which happened first: Penn State joining the Big 10 OR West Virginia and Rutgers leaving the A-10 for the Big East.

Even though Rutgers and Temple had some minor successes in the mid- and late 70's, they were still seen as 'basketball first' schools, and it would have been hard for them and the service academies to be consistently competitive in football on a weekly basis, compared to the other 5 teams. Even if some people harbored thoughts of a new football conference involving Virginia Tech, Virginia, and Maryland, there was no way UVa or UMd would have done so by leaving the established ACC at that time.

Midwestan - The Big Ten invited Penn State to join in date 1989. The move became effective for the 1992-93 basketball season and 1993 football season. The move was the first of several realignment moves that came in two waves:

First Wave:
12/15/89 Penn State joins the Big Ten
2/6/90 Notre Dame signs a five year television deal with NBC breaking with the CFA
8/1/90 Arkansas joins the SEC
9/13/90 Florida State joins the ACC
9/25/90 South Carolina joins the SEC
10/10/90 Miami joins the Big East
12/13/90 The Big East Football Conference is formed
(Temple, Rutgers, West Virginia and Virginia Tech join for football only)

Second Wave:
2/11/94 The SEC signs a television contract with CBS breaking with the CFA
2/15/94 The Big East signs a television contract with CBS breaking with the CFA
2/25/94 The Big 12 Conference is formed
3/9/94 Rutgers and West Virginia join the Big East as full members
4/22/94 TCU, SMU, Rice, Tulsa, San Jose St. and UNLV join the WAC
7/11/94 Notre Dame joins the Big East in all sports except football
1/95 Conference USA is formed (Houston, Memphis, Louisville, Cincinnati, Tulane and So.Miss. for all sports, Marquette, DePaul, Saint Louis, UAB, USF, Charlotte for all sports but football).

With respect to the Eastern Conference back in 1981, I believe UMd was a target of JoePa. UMd had OOC rivalries with Penn State, WVU and Syracuse and had a strong relationship with Penn State in particular as a neighboring flagship. With respect to Temple and Rutgers, they were clearly late comers to big time football, but both made the commitment to move to I-A at the time of the split, are located in large markets and played all or many of their games in NFL stadiums. In addition, with the I-A/I-AA split, they had already successfully scheduled on a regular basis all of the traditional big time schools in the East, so would have been naturals for the conference. Finally, both had very good relationships with JoePa and Penn State. My belief is that JoePa eyed an eight team conference of Penn State, Pitt, WVU, Syracuse, Maryland, BC, Rutgers and Temple.

It’s very interesting that Houston held out with no plans for a conference home for 9 months after the WAC 16 announcement. I always assumed that SMU, Rice, and TCU chose the WAC 16 after Houston bailed on them for C-USA and the Cougars’ new friends weren’t interested in them.
08-16-2019 01:51 PM
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Post: #83
RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-15-2019 09:47 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  For SAT and ACT prepscholar is pretty accurate and more current. You have to guess a schools form or use google

https://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleg...quirements
https://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleg...quirements
https://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleg...quirements
https://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleg...quirements
https://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleg...quirements
https://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleg...quirements
https://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleg...quirements
https://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleg...quirements
https://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleg...quirements
https://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleg...scores-GPA

Rule of thumb, SAT below 1200 is a "hell no" for any P conference looking at G5. GPA is kind of useless

Here is New Mexico, UNLV, Memphis, ECU for a comparison

https://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleg...quirements
https://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleg...quirements
https://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleg...quirements
https://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleg...quirements

Some P5 are below that threshold, but legacy counts (i think this is the entire list below the "line"):

https://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleg...quirements
https://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleg...quirements
https://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleg...quirements
https://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleg...quirements
https://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleg...quirements
https://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleg...quirements
https://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleg...quirements
https://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleg...quirements
https://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleg...scores-GPA

Note: Alabama has been rising quickly. I think they will be above the 1200 line within 4 or 5 years. ISU is really close. UofA is embarrassingly bad; I can't explain them, as ASU is harder to get into.

Graduation rates are even harder to find consistent data. UCLA gives good detail as do all the UC schools

https://www.apb.ucla.edu/campus-statisti...uation-ttd

I have no preference on generic ones. Here is one you can look at entire conferences

https://www.univstats.com/colleges/unive...ation-rate

If you are looking at SATs, some states are ACT states. So looking at SATs, you may have a very small sample for some schools. That could explain some skewed results.
08-16-2019 01:55 PM
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Post: #84
RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-16-2019 12:33 PM)1845 Bear Wrote:  
(08-16-2019 11:57 AM)bullet Wrote:  I don't know that its so much the company pre-1945 (although for Vandy, Duke and Wake Forest it is), but that the schools were big time football schools before the NFL got established. So they developed a tradition that continued into the generations that may have followed NFL football more. The smaller schools like Rice and SMU couldn't continue at the same level when the NFL moved in. A larger school like UCLA might have slipped, but it had tons of alumni. The Ivy League schools also found their support diminished when the NFL came in and they mostly weren't big enough to continue at the top level. Harvard, Yale and Penn might have, but they weren't interested in leaving the rest of the Ivy League behind.

Up until 1945 the Ivies had some of the most winning programs in the northeast. Then they deemphasized athletics which made it easier for the nfl to take over. May not have played out as easily had they kept pace with other CFB leagues.

Quote:Meanwhile someone like Houston established in the 1940s didn't have the pre-war alumni and most of its alumni grew up in the NFL era. They didn't already have that tradition established. So while UCLA may struggle compared to their success, that struggle is 50k/game while Houston does well to get 40k. UConn always was small time in the Yankee Conference even though they have played for a long time. Yale was the big program in Connecticut, so UConn has the same issue as UH.

UH has a lot to do with the commuter school model limiting how much their students attached themselves to athletics. I think that’s far bigger than prewar or postwar numbers. How well you convert enrolled students into supporters sets your attendance floor barring outliers. A bad rate of conversion can make a big school support like a much smaller one.

Bringing numbers in this can be evidenced by the low percentages of their student body being full time undergrad students, low percentages graduating in six years, and low percentages of their freshmen living on campus. Someone who’s part time, or never lived on campus, or didn’t graduate isn’t likely to develop the kind of bond that someone in the opposite situation would with their school.

For instance UH has improved a massive way in six year grad rate (now 59%) and having more students living on campus that first year (now 44%) as both were around 37% in the early 2000’s. By comparison the average today for the other SWC schools in TX is 78% and 88%. It’s a huge difference.

If you did (total Full time undergrads) X (6 year grad rate) X (Freshman on campus %) you get UH’s net total on par with TCU and Vandy. Go back to the Early 2000’s and it was on par with Rice. It’s a logical reason for why a school with 10k more total enrollment than Texas Tech has attendance that’s barely over half of Tech’s.

The commuter school/part time student factor is important. But I think the tradition balancing against the NFL competition (as well as against all the entertainment options in a big city) is also a factor.
08-16-2019 02:01 PM
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Post: #85
RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-16-2019 01:51 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(08-14-2019 09:45 AM)orangefan Wrote:  
(08-14-2019 08:18 AM)Midwestan Wrote:  Thanks for the responses orangefan, slhNavy91, and esayem. I'm sort of an old coot and don't remember as much as I used to. I do remember that the Atlantic 10 was known as the Eastern 8 when it stared in the mid-70's! A top-tier Eastern Football League as envisioned by JoePa would have been a stretch, given that Army and Navy have small enrollments that are basically capped compared to their larger D-1 neighbors. I couldn't remember which happened first: Penn State joining the Big 10 OR West Virginia and Rutgers leaving the A-10 for the Big East.

Even though Rutgers and Temple had some minor successes in the mid- and late 70's, they were still seen as 'basketball first' schools, and it would have been hard for them and the service academies to be consistently competitive in football on a weekly basis, compared to the other 5 teams. Even if some people harbored thoughts of a new football conference involving Virginia Tech, Virginia, and Maryland, there was no way UVa or UMd would have done so by leaving the established ACC at that time.

Midwestan - The Big Ten invited Penn State to join in date 1989. The move became effective for the 1992-93 basketball season and 1993 football season. The move was the first of several realignment moves that came in two waves:

First Wave:
12/15/89 Penn State joins the Big Ten
2/6/90 Notre Dame signs a five year television deal with NBC breaking with the CFA
8/1/90 Arkansas joins the SEC
9/13/90 Florida State joins the ACC
9/25/90 South Carolina joins the SEC
10/10/90 Miami joins the Big East
12/13/90 The Big East Football Conference is formed
(Temple, Rutgers, West Virginia and Virginia Tech join for football only)

Second Wave:
2/11/94 The SEC signs a television contract with CBS breaking with the CFA
2/15/94 The Big East signs a television contract with CBS breaking with the CFA
2/25/94 The Big 12 Conference is formed
3/9/94 Rutgers and West Virginia join the Big East as full members
4/22/94 TCU, SMU, Rice, Tulsa, San Jose St. and UNLV join the WAC
7/11/94 Notre Dame joins the Big East in all sports except football
1/95 Conference USA is formed (Houston, Memphis, Louisville, Cincinnati, Tulane and So.Miss. for all sports, Marquette, DePaul, Saint Louis, UAB, USF, Charlotte for all sports but football).

With respect to the Eastern Conference back in 1981, I believe UMd was a target of JoePa. UMd had OOC rivalries with Penn State, WVU and Syracuse and had a strong relationship with Penn State in particular as a neighboring flagship. With respect to Temple and Rutgers, they were clearly late comers to big time football, but both made the commitment to move to I-A at the time of the split, are located in large markets and played all or many of their games in NFL stadiums. In addition, with the I-A/I-AA split, they had already successfully scheduled on a regular basis all of the traditional big time schools in the East, so would have been naturals for the conference. Finally, both had very good relationships with JoePa and Penn State. My belief is that JoePa eyed an eight team conference of Penn State, Pitt, WVU, Syracuse, Maryland, BC, Rutgers and Temple.

It’s very interesting that Houston held out with no plans for a conference home for 9 months after the WAC 16 announcement. I always assumed that SMU, Rice, and TCU chose the WAC 16 after Houston bailed on them for C-USA and the Cougars’ new friends weren’t interested in them.

Maybe by the time Rice, SMU, and TCU announced the move to the WAC, plans were already in the works for a CUSA with Houston in it.
08-16-2019 02:12 PM
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orangefan Offline
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Post: #86
RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-16-2019 01:51 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(08-16-2019 02:12 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  It’s very interesting that Houston held out with no plans for a conference home for 9 months after the WAC 16 announcement. I always assumed that SMU, Rice, and TCU chose the WAC 16 after Houston bailed on them for C-USA and the Cougars’ new friends weren’t interested in them.

Maybe by the time Rice, SMU, and TCU announced the move to the WAC, plans were already in the works for a CUSA with Houston in it.


My speculation would be that Houston had lined up to join the Metro or Great Midwest in basketball with an intent to go independent in football. They could have scheduled all of their ultimate CUSA colleagues as independents.
(This post was last modified: 08-16-2019 02:18 PM by orangefan.)
08-16-2019 02:15 PM
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Post: #87
RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-16-2019 11:47 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(08-14-2019 05:40 PM)colohank Wrote:  I've never understood the reverence accorded Land-Grant status in discussions of conference realignment. It was simply a funding mechanism to help states establish universities and is not necessarily a measure of institutional worth or quality. A lot of respected schools in the eastern US were established and had successfully stood the test of time long before the Morrill Acts were passed in 1862 and 1890 and thus were not designated as Land-Grant Universities. In Ohio, for example, Ohio University (1787). Miami University (1809), and the University of Cincinnati (1819) all predate the establishment of Ohio State University, the state's designated Land-Grant institution.

They got the federal money. They became large with lots of research. That's what the presidents value.

A lot of non-land-grant schools are large institutions with huge research portfolios, most of it federally funded. Do you believe that land-grant schools continue to get federal money simply owing to their land-grant status, or did they just get a single infusion of cash (from the sale of federal lands) at the time of establishment? If the latter, how much university research do you think was going on in 1862 or 1890?
08-16-2019 02:42 PM
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RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
Correct.
08-16-2019 05:02 PM
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Post: #89
RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
I noticed that Texas have different branches.

Texas is the head of schools like UTD, UTT, UTRGV, UTA UTSA ect.
Texas AM is the head of Tarleton State, West Texas AM, Commerce, Texarkana, Texas AM-C. C., Kingsille, Texas AM-San Antonio, Prairie View, Central etc.
Texas Tech have Angelo State,
Houston
Texas State have Lamar, Sam Houston State and Sul Ross State.
North Texas with North Texas-Dallas (UNT-Dallas is looking to add sports)

Midwestern State, SFASU, Texas Southern, Texas Women's, Texas State Tech Colleges, and many community colleges are Independent.
Texas have 6 flagships.

I do think that states are setting up all these different flagships where each one have different focus.
08-16-2019 05:24 PM
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Post: #90
RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-16-2019 05:24 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  I noticed that Texas have different branches.

Texas is the head of schools like UTD, UTT, UTRGV, UTA UTSA ect.
Texas AM is the head of Tarleton State, West Texas AM, Commerce, Texarkana, Texas AM-C. C., Kingsille, Texas AM-San Antonio, Prairie View, Central etc.
Texas Tech have Angelo State,
Houston
Texas State have Lamar, Sam Houston State and Sul Ross State.
North Texas with North Texas-Dallas (UNT-Dallas is looking to add sports)

Midwestern State, SFASU, Texas Southern, Texas Women's, Texas State Tech Colleges, and many community colleges are Independent.
Texas have 6 flagships.

I do think that states are setting up all these different flagships where each one have different focus.

Houston has several schools in its system (Victoria, Clear Lake, Downtown, and Sugar Land).
08-16-2019 05:39 PM
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whittx Offline
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Post: #91
RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-16-2019 05:24 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  I noticed that Texas have different branches.

Texas is the head of schools like UTD, UTT, UTRGV, UTA UTSA ect.
Texas AM is the head of Tarleton State, West Texas AM, Commerce, Texarkana, Texas AM-C. C., Kingsille, Texas AM-San Antonio, Prairie View, Central etc.
Texas Tech have Angelo State,
Houston
Texas State have Lamar, Sam Houston State and Sul Ross State.
North Texas with North Texas-Dallas (UNT-Dallas is looking to add sports)

Midwestern State, SFASU, Texas Southern, Texas Women's, Texas State Tech Colleges, and many community colleges are Independent.
Texas have 6 flagships.

I do think that states are setting up all these different flagships where each one have different focus.

Houston has several schools in its system (Victoria, Clear Lake, Downtown, and Sugar Land).
08-16-2019 05:39 PM
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10thMountain Offline
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Post: #92
RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
It’s as much kingdom building as anything else.

But while there are multiple system flagships, the state only recognizes A&M and UT as it’s STATE Flagship schools
08-16-2019 08:30 PM
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Post: #93
RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-16-2019 05:24 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  I noticed that Texas have different branches.

Texas is the head of schools like UTD, UTT, UTRGV, UTA UTSA ect.
Texas AM is the head of Tarleton State, West Texas AM, Commerce, Texarkana, Texas AM-C. C., Kingsille, Texas AM-San Antonio, Prairie View, Central etc.
Texas Tech have Angelo State,
Houston
Texas State have Lamar, Sam Houston State and Sul Ross State.
North Texas with North Texas-Dallas (UNT-Dallas is looking to add sports)

Midwestern State, SFASU, Texas Southern, Texas Women's, Texas State Tech Colleges, and many community colleges are Independent.
Texas have 6 flagships.

I do think that states are setting up all these different flagships where each one have different focus.
They are independent institutions that are part of a University system. To say that they are “The Head” isn’t accurate. The UT system and the A&M system have independent campuses that make their own decisions. There are cases where a branch of an institution is part of the main campus. The most notable are Texas A&M Galveston and the new facility A&M has down in the Rio Grande Valley.
08-16-2019 10:53 PM
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Post: #94
RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
What about UTMB-Galveston?

One of the biggest mistakes UH ever made was not taking in the Texas State name while they had the chance. Way more of a regional and national appeal.

Another is having a system with branch campus' that leach off of the central campus' name and reputation. I just heard a UHCL student brag like he went to UH this past night. UH should drop them and the rest be known as Houston Suburban or something.
(This post was last modified: Yesterday 12:08 AM by _C2_.)
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whittx Offline
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Post: #95
RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(Yesterday 12:06 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  What about UTMB-Galveston?

One of the biggest mistakes UH ever made was not taking in the Texas State name while they had the chance. Way more of a regional and national appeal.

Another is having a system with branch campus' that leach off of the central campus' name and reputation. I just heard a UHCL student brag like he went to UH this past night. UH should drop them and the rest be known as Houston Suburban or something.

Sounds like the USF folks. If you tell someone off the street you go to USF, unless you live in this part of FL, folks will assume you go to school in Tampa and not in St. Pete or between Sarasota and Bradenton.
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Post: #96
RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(Yesterday 12:06 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  What about UTMB-Galveston?

One of the biggest mistakes UH ever made was not taking in the Texas State name while they had the chance. Way more of a regional and national appeal.

Another is having a system with branch campus' that leach off of the central campus' name and reputation. I just heard a UHCL student brag like he went to UH this past night. UH should drop them and the rest be known as Houston Suburban or something.

In my fifty years in Houston I don't think I've ever heard anyone leech off UH.
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