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P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
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Midwestan Offline
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Post: #41
RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
Good thread! A few extras...
--Penn State didn't entirely give up on playing Syracuse, they just didn't want to do it at Archbold Stadium (crumbling, concrete seats, much lower capacity than what Beaver Stadium offered in State College).
--Joe Paterno was very interested in starting up a top-tier Eastern College Football Conference, but all the schools he envisioned in that alliance never were able to get on the same page for a variety of reasons. The best time to do it probably would have been the mid-or late-80's after Syracuse and West Virginia built new stadiums and Boston College came to prominence under Jack Bicknell. The idea was to get Rutgers, Temple, and the two service academies to get on board with the project, but by then, only Navy enjoyed consistent success on the football field. Afterwards, the Big East, which Penn State never belonged to in basketball, decided to expand and sponsor football for its member schools. Rutgers and West Virginia left the Atlantic 10 to join the Big East. Penn State was left in the lurch and ultimately accepted an invitation to join the Big 10.
--The primary reason for the birth of the Fiesta Bowl was to give the WAC football champion a chance to play a quality opponent around the holidays. Arizona State played in 5 of the first 7 Fiesta Bowls. BYU and Wyoming played in the other 2. In 1978, the first year Arizona and Arizona State played in the Pac-10, UCLA and Arkansas met in the Fiesta Bowl and played to a 10-10 tie.
08-13-2019 02:42 PM
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ColKurtz Offline
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Post: #42
RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-13-2019 01:14 PM)Statefan Wrote:  NC State is both Land Grant and Flagship in NC.

UNC-Ch has no Engineering School, Agricultural School, Vet School, etc. In 1931 UNC and NC A&M were combined with the Woman's College (UNC-G) and made to split out programs. That's why NC State has no Med School, no Law School, and no Nursing School.

NC State is the land grant, but not the Flagship. Definitions vary, but UNC is one of the top research universities in the country. That, along with its "public ivy" status, and age, law/medical schools, gives it the pedigree sought after by people who give out such labels.
08-13-2019 02:50 PM
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Post: #43
RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-13-2019 02:42 PM)Midwestan Wrote:  Good thread! A few extras...
--Penn State didn't entirely give up on playing Syracuse, they just didn't want to do it at Archbold Stadium (crumbling, concrete seats, much lower capacity than what Beaver Stadium offered in State College).
--Joe Paterno was very interested in starting up a top-tier Eastern College Football Conference, but all the schools he envisioned in that alliance never were able to get on the same page for a variety of reasons. The best time to do it probably would have been the mid-or late-80's after Syracuse and West Virginia built new stadiums and Boston College came to prominence under Jack Bicknell. The idea was to get Rutgers, Temple, and the two service academies to get on board with the project, but by then, only Navy enjoyed consistent success on the football field. Afterwards, the Big East, which Penn State never belonged to in basketball, decided to expand and sponsor football for its member schools. Rutgers and West Virginia left the Atlantic 10 to join the Big East. Penn State was left in the lurch and ultimately accepted an invitation to join the Big 10.
--The primary reason for the birth of the Fiesta Bowl was to give the WAC football champion a chance to play a quality opponent around the holidays. Arizona State played in 5 of the first 7 Fiesta Bowls. BYU and Wyoming played in the other 2. In 1978, the first year Arizona and Arizona State played in the Pac-10, UCLA and Arkansas met in the Fiesta Bowl and played to a 10-10 tie.

Once Syracuse, BC and Pitt turned down the chance to join up with Penn State in late 1981/early 1982, with the Big East's invitation to Pitt to join, but not Penn State, the only vehicle for an Eastern football conference was the Big East. I believe Penn State made at least one more run at getting invited in the mid to late 1980's, but was unsuccessful. After that, things followed their ultimate course.
(This post was last modified: 08-14-2019 07:12 AM by orangefan.)
08-13-2019 02:56 PM
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Post: #44
RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-12-2019 05:11 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  So I’ve wanted to do a thread for a while now about how modern day P5 status is mostly about the company a school kept prior to WWII (and in many cases, WWI) For the most part, the modern P5 are made up of schools that got into a Conference that evolved into or was the predecessor to a modern P5 or were an established top rate eastern independent and your program survived the war years. There’s only around a dozen or so P5 programs that are currently P5 that buck the trend:

Colorado (1947): the Buffaloes got the call up to the Big 6 from the Skyline

Mich St (1950): the Spartans were a pretty strong independent in the 1940’s and became a benefactor of Chicago’s self regulation from Big Ten membership

Texas Tech (1956): the Red Raiders got the call up to the SWC from the Border Conference

Oklahoma St (1958): The Cowboys enjoyed a nice ride in the big boys club from 1915-1925 in the SWC and from 1925-1928 in the Pre-split MVC before being relegated to the kiddie table for 30 years until their (re)invitation to the Big 8

Florida St and Miami: it’s hard to put an official date on when an independent became big time. I saw some sources out FSU’s rise at 1960 but others might mark it at 1976 with Bobby Bowden’s hire. Miami has some very early bowls in the 1930s but was largely irrelevant and on the cusp of being eliminated until Schnellenberger brought the Canes back to life in 1979

Arizona and Arizona St (1978): the Wildcats and Sun Devils, formerly conference mates of TTU in the Border Conference, made the jump from WAC to PAC 10, largely in part due to the state’s population boom

Virginia Tech (1991): Things started out so promising for the Hokies. They were SoCon founders in 1921, which would ordinarily mean they’d spend the next century in the elite club but in 1953 the ACC founders left them behind in a little league in favor of inviting the instate Cavaliers instead. They lingered on in the SoCon until 1965when they went Indy. Some might claim they regained big time status at some point as an Indy but joining the Big East in 1991 clearly marked them as top tier

Louisville (2005): The ACC’s raid on the BE opened up an opportunity for Louisville, Cincy, and USF of C-USA to ascend. It was short lived for the other two as only Louisville remains

Utah (2011): An ancient conference mate of Colorado and companion of the AZ schools for a few decades, got the call to the big show on the heels of the failed PAC 16 scheme. A 2004 Fiesta Bowl win provided nice audition material for the Utes

I was torn on whether or not to include WVU, Rutgers, BC, and Syracuse on this list. I’m not sure that all of their time as eastern independents was really at CFB’s highest level. WVU also had a spell, upon joining the SoCon in 1950, where they were abandoned with the little schools upon the ACC breakaway and spent 1953-1968 with schools that were decidedly not top tier until they returned to independence. Perhaps fans from these schools could help provide an argument/counter argument for why they were or weren’t competing at the highest echelons.

Oklahoma State was in SWC before 1915 before both Oklahoma and Oklahoma State founded the all Oklahoma conference. Oklahoma stayed 1 season until 1916 to join the MVC. Pokes stayed with Tulsa, Central Oklahoma, Kingfisher, Oklahoma Baptist, NE Oklahoma State, East Central Oklahoma, Cameron, SW Oklahoma State, SE Oklahoma State and NW Oklahoma State. A couple of times Pokes almost lost to Central Oklahoma. Pokes left in 1925 to be Independent and the Oklahoma conference that both Sooners and Pokes co-founded went to NAIA in 1941.

Colorado was part of the RMAC at one time, and West Virginia was a member of the recent D2 all West Virginia conference.

Before PAC 12 was founded, UCLA was a member of the now D3 California Conference with CalTech, Redlands, Whittier, La Verne and others.
Washington, Washington state, Oregon, Oregon State and Idaho formed a northwest conference with some of the D3 northwest schools and College of Idaho.

Indiana, Indiana State, Purdue and others did share an all Indiana conference just like Ohio State did with an all Ohio conference.
08-13-2019 05:16 PM
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Post: #45
RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-13-2019 02:56 PM)orangefan Wrote:  Once Syracuse, BC and Pitt turned down the chance to join up with Penn State in late 1981/early 1982, with the Big East's invitation to Pitt to join, but not Penn State, the only vehicle for an Eastern football conference was the Big East. I believe the Penn State made at least one more run at getting invited in the mid to late 1980's, but was unsuccessful. After that, things followed their ultimate course.

Tranghese said that in 1982, the Big East members voted 5-3 in favor of inviting Penn State, but 6 votes in favor were needed to extend an invitation.
https://www.espn.com/blog/bigeast/post/_.../undefined
08-13-2019 05:35 PM
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Post: #46
RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-13-2019 02:50 PM)ColKurtz Wrote:  
(08-13-2019 01:14 PM)Statefan Wrote:  NC State is both Land Grant and Flagship in NC.

UNC-Ch has no Engineering School, Agricultural School, Vet School, etc. In 1931 UNC and NC A&M were combined with the Woman's College (UNC-G) and made to split out programs. That's why NC State has no Med School, no Law School, and no Nursing School.

NC State is the land grant, but not the Flagship. Definitions vary, but UNC is one of the top research universities in the country. That, along with its "public ivy" status, and age, law/medical schools, gives it the pedigree sought after by people who give out such labels.

Kurtz,

Unlike the split between NC State and UNC-Ch, UVa has it's own Engineering School and has had since the 1820's, as well as it's own Architecture School. Other than the Vet School, Military Science, and Food Science, there is not much at VT that is not in Charlottesville.

NC State has the following that UNC-Ch does not:

Architecture, Design, Aerospace Engineering, Nuclear Engineering, Civil Engineering, Mechanical Engineering, Electrical Engineering, Chemical Engineering, Animal Sciences, Food Sciences, Crop Sciences, Veterinary School, Horticulture, Forestry, Pulp and Paper, and Textiles. Lots of research dollars in those things.

UNC-Ch has the following that NC State does not:

Med, Dental, Nursing, and Public Health schools, Law school, Pharmacy school, Auditory program, Music, Journalism School, Library Science, and Radiology. We also share governance with UNC-Ch which you do not with UVa so your formative experience is not really analogous. Having taught at VT for a while is the reason I say this.
08-13-2019 05:46 PM
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Statefan Offline
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Post: #47
RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
David - VT got kicked out of the ACC because their President was the conference executive when he passed the "bowl ban" pissing off MD, Clemson, and Duke. He was acting under pressure from politicos in Richmond because of the cheating at William & Mary. This is why MD specifically excluded them and why MD made a deal with UVa to bring them in before a vote on a 9th and 10th. SC voting with Clemson achieved a 4-4 split on UNC's motion to "forgive" VT and add them as 9th. UNC then made a motion to add West Virginia instead of leaving them behind at that motion died for lack of a second. The Big 4 - Duke, UNC, NC State, and WF voted for VT. MD, UVa, Clemson, and SC did not.

It does not get the attention it deserves but to the best of my knowledge the VT deal is the first time a P-5, major school, was tossed out of a major conference. This is not repeated until 1996.
(This post was last modified: 08-13-2019 05:54 PM by Statefan.)
08-13-2019 05:51 PM
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Post: #48
RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
The old WAC seemed to always get cut down when things started to look good. Arizona St began a string of good runs in the late 60s and through the 70s. Just when it seemed like they’d emerge as another power league, albeit on the weak end like the pre-FSU ACC, the PAC 8 came in and cut off the head by stealing the AZ schools. At the time of their departure BYU was just starting to be a Goliath. That carried through the 80s but 1991 was a watershed year for CFB. Adds by the Big Ten, SEC, ACC, and the emergence of the Big East as the football home of the remaining great eastern independents created a lot of separation between the WAC and the 7 conferences ahead of them. 1996, and the Big 8-SWC pseudo-merger exasperated things.

WAC-16 was supposed to help them close the distance but I think it just weakened the brand. The old guard saw that and they tried to rectify it by forming the MWC but they were already shut out of the big bowls. Fast forward to the 2000s when the MWC started creeping up on the Big East and in many years looking better than them then the loss of Utah, TCU, and BYU’s independence and the gap was once again evident.
08-13-2019 05:54 PM
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Post: #49
P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-13-2019 05:54 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  The old WAC seemed to always get cut down when things started to look good. Arizona St began a string of good runs in the late 60s and through the 70s. Just when it seemed like they’d emerge as another power league, albeit on the weak end like the pre-FSU ACC, the PAC 8 came in and cut off the head by stealing the AZ schools. At the time of their departure BYU was just starting to be a Goliath. That carried through the 80s but 1991 was a watershed year for CFB. Adds by the Big Ten, SEC, ACC, and the emergence of the Big East as the football home of the remaining great eastern independents created a lot of separation between the WAC and the 7 conferences ahead of them. 1996, and the Big 8-SWC pseudo-merger exasperated things.

WAC-16 was supposed to help them close the distance but I think it just weakened the brand. The old guard saw that and they tried to rectify it by forming the MWC but they were already shut out of the big bowls. Fast forward to the 2000s when the MWC started creeping up on the Big East and in many years looking better than them then the loss of Utah, TCU, and BYU’s independence and the gap was once again evident.


The WAC16 thought that the tv dollars would follow by adding teams IN markets. However they didn’t add enough teams that actually drove high viewership in those markets. They had the smallest footprint by far of the top 8 leagues (6 AQ leagues and CUSA) before they expanded. Basically owned Hawaii, Utah, Wyoming, New Mexico, and two teams in both Colorado and California delivered part of those states and also had a small market in Texas with El Paso.

The WAC and it’s spiritual successor the MWC has always had a footprint issue unless you assume Fresno and San Diego State (now including San Jose State) somehow deliver California which I find doubtful.
08-13-2019 06:05 PM
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Post: #50
RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-13-2019 05:51 PM)Statefan Wrote:  David - VT got kicked out of the ACC because their President was the conference executive when he passed the "bowl ban" pissing off MD, Clemson, and Duke. He was acting under pressure from politicos in Richmond because of the cheating at William & Mary. This is why MD specifically excluded them and why MD made a deal with UVa to bring them in before a vote on a 9th and 10th. SC voting with Clemson achieved a 4-4 split on UNC's motion to "forgive" VT and add them as 9th. UNC then made a motion to add West Virginia instead of leaving them behind at that motion died for lack of a second. The Big 4 - Duke, UNC, NC State, and WF voted for VT. MD, UVa, Clemson, and SC did not.

It does not get the attention it deserves but to the best of my knowledge the VT deal is the first time a P-5, major school, was tossed out of a major conference. This is not repeated until 1996.

A very fascinating post. Do you have any more sources regarding the organization of the ACC? Had VT and WVU ingratiated themselves with Maryland and the SC schools they wouldn’t have had to spend decades trying to catch up. The ACC would have had a stronger football focus but also amazing basketball. South Carolina might have never left. Adding GT, and then FSU in 1991 would have given them a title game the same year as the SEC.
08-13-2019 06:12 PM
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Post: #51
RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-13-2019 05:46 PM)Statefan Wrote:  
(08-13-2019 02:50 PM)ColKurtz Wrote:  
(08-13-2019 01:14 PM)Statefan Wrote:  NC State is both Land Grant and Flagship in NC.

UNC-Ch has no Engineering School, Agricultural School, Vet School, etc. In 1931 UNC and NC A&M were combined with the Woman's College (UNC-G) and made to split out programs. That's why NC State has no Med School, no Law School, and no Nursing School.

NC State is the land grant, but not the Flagship. Definitions vary, but UNC is one of the top research universities in the country. That, along with its "public ivy" status, and age, law/medical schools, gives it the pedigree sought after by people who give out such labels.

Kurtz,

Unlike the split between NC State and UNC-Ch, UVa has it's own Engineering School and has had since the 1820's, as well as it's own Architecture School. Other than the Vet School, Military Science, and Food Science, there is not much at VT that is not in Charlottesville.

NC State has the following that UNC-Ch does not:

Architecture, Design, Aerospace Engineering, Nuclear Engineering, Civil Engineering, Mechanical Engineering, Electrical Engineering, Chemical Engineering, Animal Sciences, Food Sciences, Crop Sciences, Veterinary School, Horticulture, Forestry, Pulp and Paper, and Textiles. Lots of research dollars in those things.

UNC-Ch has the following that NC State does not:

Med, Dental, Nursing, and Public Health schools, Law school, Pharmacy school, Auditory program, Music, Journalism School, Library Science, and Radiology. We also share governance with UNC-Ch which you do not with UVa so your formative experience is not really analogous. Having taught at VT for a while is the reason I say this.

It's not an opinion; UNC is the flagship university in North Carolina. That's all I was pointing out.

Most flagships are land-grant, produce the highest R&D expenditures, have medical schools, and produce the most earned doctoral degrees. Vs. UVA, VT is land-grant, has significantly higher R&D expenditures, has a (fairly recent) medical school, and produces more than 1.5x doctoral degrees. Yet UVA is the flagship in VA because of its age, its Jefferson connection, and higher selectivity (at VT you apply to a specific college, whereas UVA has general admission. Many VT colleges are harder to get into that UVA general admission, but UVA is still in more selective overall).

It doesn't matter that NCSU has engineering and architecture programs while UNC generally does not. UNC is still the flagship because of its age, its selectivity, its top-10ish R&D expenditures.

Overall, UNC and UVA tick the marks for jobs where pedigree matters (doctors, lawyers, politicians, C-level execs). Their public ivy status grants them that, and that's really just historical. If VT and NCSU were founded first, they'd probably have the flagship status.
08-13-2019 06:42 PM
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Post: #52
RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-13-2019 05:51 PM)Statefan Wrote:  David - VT got kicked out of the ACC because their President was the conference executive when he passed the "bowl ban" pissing off MD, Clemson, and Duke. He was acting under pressure from politicos in Richmond because of the cheating at William & Mary. This is why MD specifically excluded them and why MD made a deal with UVa to bring them in before a vote on a 9th and 10th. SC voting with Clemson achieved a 4-4 split on UNC's motion to "forgive" VT and add them as 9th. UNC then made a motion to add West Virginia instead of leaving them behind at that motion died for lack of a second. The Big 4 - Duke, UNC, NC State, and WF voted for VT. MD, UVa, Clemson, and SC did not.

It does not get the attention it deserves but to the best of my knowledge the VT deal is the first time a P-5, major school, was tossed out of a major conference. This is not repeated until 1996.

The post-season issue was part of it. But another large consideration was how hard it was to get to Blacksburg. In 1953, there was no interstate connected to Christiansburg/Blacksburg. It was 2-lane roads much of the way. In the winter especially, bad weather could make bus travel pretty treacherous.
08-13-2019 06:49 PM
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Post: #53
RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-13-2019 05:51 PM)Statefan Wrote:  David - VT got kicked out of the ACC because their President was the conference executive when he passed the "bowl ban" pissing off MD, Clemson, and Duke. He was acting under pressure from politicos in Richmond because of the cheating at William & Mary. This is why MD specifically excluded them and why MD made a deal with UVa to bring them in before a vote on a 9th and 10th. SC voting with Clemson achieved a 4-4 split on UNC's motion to "forgive" VT and add them as 9th. UNC then made a motion to add West Virginia instead of leaving them behind at that motion died for lack of a second. The Big 4 - Duke, UNC, NC State, and WF voted for VT. MD, UVa, Clemson, and SC did not.

It does not get the attention it deserves but to the best of my knowledge the VT deal is the first time a P-5, major school, was tossed out of a major conference. This is not repeated until 1996.

VT wasn't technically kicked out if they weren't invited in the first place.

Also, Duke voted in favor of probation for UMD and Clemson for bowling: https://csnbbs.com/thread-821510-post-16...id16059556
08-13-2019 06:58 PM
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Post: #54
RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-13-2019 02:42 PM)Midwestan Wrote:  Good thread! A few extras...
--Penn State didn't entirely give up on playing Syracuse, they just didn't want to do it at Archbold Stadium (crumbling, concrete seats, much lower capacity than what Beaver Stadium offered in State College).
--Joe Paterno was very interested in starting up a top-tier Eastern College Football Conference, but all the schools he envisioned in that alliance never were able to get on the same page for a variety of reasons. The best time to do it probably would have been the mid-or late-80's after Syracuse and West Virginia built new stadiums and Boston College came to prominence under Jack Bicknell. The idea was to get Rutgers, Temple, and the two service academies to get on board with the project, but by then, only Navy enjoyed consistent success on the football field. Afterwards, the Big East, which Penn State never belonged to in basketball, decided to expand and sponsor football for its member schools. Rutgers and West Virginia left the Atlantic 10 to join the Big East. Penn State was left in the lurch and ultimately accepted an invitation to join the Big 10.
--The primary reason for the birth of the Fiesta Bowl was to give the WAC football champion a chance to play a quality opponent around the holidays. Arizona State played in 5 of the first 7 Fiesta Bowls. BYU and Wyoming played in the other 2. In 1978, the first year Arizona and Arizona State played in the Pac-10, UCLA and Arkansas met in the Fiesta Bowl and played to a 10-10 tie.

For the record, that wasn't a time Navy was enjoying success on the football field. LONG down period post -Welsh.
I believe the historical record would show that Navy was mildly interested in Paterno's Eastern football idea but ultimately favored independence and a national profile over a regional focus, despite our limited on field success at that time. (And not to speak out of turn for Army, but similar thought process.)
08-13-2019 07:26 PM
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RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-13-2019 02:42 PM)Midwestan Wrote:  Good thread! A few extras...
--Penn State didn't entirely give up on playing Syracuse, they just didn't want to do it at Archbold Stadium (crumbling, concrete seats, much lower capacity than what Beaver Stadium offered in State College).
--Joe Paterno was very interested in starting up a top-tier Eastern College Football Conference, but all the schools he envisioned in that alliance never were able to get on the same page for a variety of reasons. The best time to do it probably would have been the mid-or late-80's after Syracuse and West Virginia built new stadiums and Boston College came to prominence under Jack Bicknell. The idea was to get Rutgers, Temple, and the two service academies to get on board with the project, but by then, only Navy enjoyed consistent success on the football field. Afterwards, the Big East, which Penn State never belonged to in basketball, decided to expand and sponsor football for its member schools. Rutgers and West Virginia left the Atlantic 10 to join the Big East. Penn State was left in the lurch and ultimately accepted an invitation to join the Big 10.
--The primary reason for the birth of the Fiesta Bowl was to give the WAC football champion a chance to play a quality opponent around the holidays. Arizona State played in 5 of the first 7 Fiesta Bowls. BYU and Wyoming played in the other 2. In 1978, the first year Arizona and Arizona State played in the Pac-10, UCLA and Arkansas met in the Fiesta Bowl and played to a 10-10 tie.

Good stuff, but Penn State joined the Big Ten before the Big East decided to sponsor football and add WVU and Rutgers. BE football was a reactionary move to prevent their football playing members from leaving to the Metro or starting an all-sports conference.
08-13-2019 07:29 PM
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Post: #56
RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-13-2019 06:42 PM)ColKurtz Wrote:  
(08-13-2019 05:46 PM)Statefan Wrote:  
(08-13-2019 02:50 PM)ColKurtz Wrote:  
(08-13-2019 01:14 PM)Statefan Wrote:  NC State is both Land Grant and Flagship in NC.

UNC-Ch has no Engineering School, Agricultural School, Vet School, etc. In 1931 UNC and NC A&M were combined with the Woman's College (UNC-G) and made to split out programs. That's why NC State has no Med School, no Law School, and no Nursing School.

NC State is the land grant, but not the Flagship. Definitions vary, but UNC is one of the top research universities in the country. That, along with its "public ivy" status, and age, law/medical schools, gives it the pedigree sought after by people who give out such labels.

Kurtz,

Unlike the split between NC State and UNC-Ch, UVa has it's own Engineering School and has had since the 1820's, as well as it's own Architecture School. Other than the Vet School, Military Science, and Food Science, there is not much at VT that is not in Charlottesville.

NC State has the following that UNC-Ch does not:

Architecture, Design, Aerospace Engineering, Nuclear Engineering, Civil Engineering, Mechanical Engineering, Electrical Engineering, Chemical Engineering, Animal Sciences, Food Sciences, Crop Sciences, Veterinary School, Horticulture, Forestry, Pulp and Paper, and Textiles. Lots of research dollars in those things.

UNC-Ch has the following that NC State does not:

Med, Dental, Nursing, and Public Health schools, Law school, Pharmacy school, Auditory program, Music, Journalism School, Library Science, and Radiology. We also share governance with UNC-Ch which you do not with UVa so your formative experience is not really analogous. Having taught at VT for a while is the reason I say this.

It's not an opinion; UNC is the flagship university in North Carolina. That's all I was pointing out.

Most flagships are land-grant, produce the highest R&D expenditures, have medical schools, and produce the most earned doctoral degrees. Vs. UVA, VT is land-grant, has significantly higher R&D expenditures, has a (fairly recent) medical school, and produces more than 1.5x doctoral degrees. Yet UVA is the flagship in VA because of its age, its Jefferson connection, and higher selectivity (at VT you apply to a specific college, whereas UVA has general admission. Many VT colleges are harder to get into that UVA general admission, but UVA is still in more selective overall).

It doesn't matter that NCSU has engineering and architecture programs while UNC generally does not. UNC is still the flagship because of its age, its selectivity, its top-10ish R&D expenditures.

Overall, UNC and UVA tick the marks for jobs where pedigree matters (doctors, lawyers, politicians, C-level execs). Their public ivy status grants them that, and that's really just historical. If VT and NCSU were founded first, they'd probably have the flagship status.

Most flagships are not necessarily land grants. VT, NCSU, Auburn, Clemson, Mississippi St., Texas A&M, Oklahoma St., Kansas St., Purdue, Michigan St. and Iowa St. are all the land grants in their states. Most of the west has separate land-grants and flagships-WSU, OSU, Montana St., Colorado St., Utah St., NMSU, So.Dakota St., No.Dakota St..
08-13-2019 08:22 PM
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10thMountain Offline
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Post: #57
RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
True but the state of Texas recognizes Texas A&M as both it’s land grant university and one of its two public flagship universities
08-13-2019 08:31 PM
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ColKurtz Offline
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Post: #58
RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-13-2019 08:22 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(08-13-2019 06:42 PM)ColKurtz Wrote:  
(08-13-2019 05:46 PM)Statefan Wrote:  
(08-13-2019 02:50 PM)ColKurtz Wrote:  
(08-13-2019 01:14 PM)Statefan Wrote:  NC State is both Land Grant and Flagship in NC.

UNC-Ch has no Engineering School, Agricultural School, Vet School, etc. In 1931 UNC and NC A&M were combined with the Woman's College (UNC-G) and made to split out programs. That's why NC State has no Med School, no Law School, and no Nursing School.

NC State is the land grant, but not the Flagship. Definitions vary, but UNC is one of the top research universities in the country. That, along with its "public ivy" status, and age, law/medical schools, gives it the pedigree sought after by people who give out such labels.

Kurtz,

Unlike the split between NC State and UNC-Ch, UVa has it's own Engineering School and has had since the 1820's, as well as it's own Architecture School. Other than the Vet School, Military Science, and Food Science, there is not much at VT that is not in Charlottesville.

NC State has the following that UNC-Ch does not:

Architecture, Design, Aerospace Engineering, Nuclear Engineering, Civil Engineering, Mechanical Engineering, Electrical Engineering, Chemical Engineering, Animal Sciences, Food Sciences, Crop Sciences, Veterinary School, Horticulture, Forestry, Pulp and Paper, and Textiles. Lots of research dollars in those things.

UNC-Ch has the following that NC State does not:

Med, Dental, Nursing, and Public Health schools, Law school, Pharmacy school, Auditory program, Music, Journalism School, Library Science, and Radiology. We also share governance with UNC-Ch which you do not with UVa so your formative experience is not really analogous. Having taught at VT for a while is the reason I say this.

It's not an opinion; UNC is the flagship university in North Carolina. That's all I was pointing out.

Most flagships are land-grant, produce the highest R&D expenditures, have medical schools, and produce the most earned doctoral degrees. Vs. UVA, VT is land-grant, has significantly higher R&D expenditures, has a (fairly recent) medical school, and produces more than 1.5x doctoral degrees. Yet UVA is the flagship in VA because of its age, its Jefferson connection, and higher selectivity (at VT you apply to a specific college, whereas UVA has general admission. Many VT colleges are harder to get into that UVA general admission, but UVA is still in more selective overall).

It doesn't matter that NCSU has engineering and architecture programs while UNC generally does not. UNC is still the flagship because of its age, its selectivity, its top-10ish R&D expenditures.

Overall, UNC and UVA tick the marks for jobs where pedigree matters (doctors, lawyers, politicians, C-level execs). Their public ivy status grants them that, and that's really just historical. If VT and NCSU were founded first, they'd probably have the flagship status.

Most flagships are not necessarily land grants. VT, NCSU, Auburn, Clemson, Mississippi St., Texas A&M, Oklahoma St., Kansas St., Purdue, Michigan St. and Iowa St. are all the land grants in their states. Most of the west has separate land-grants and flagships-WSU, OSU, Montana St., Colorado St., Utah St., NMSU, So.Dakota St., No.Dakota St..

26 Universities are both the land-grant and flagship universities in their states. Over half, so I guess "most" is still accurate. The list:


University of Alaska Fairbanks
University of Arizona
University of Arkansas
University of California Berkely
University of Connecticut
University of Deleware
University of Florida
University of Georgia
University of Hawaii
University of Illinois at Urbana–Champaign
University of Kentucky
Louisiana State University
University of Maine
University of Maryland, College Park
University of Massachusetts Amherst
University of Minnesota
University of Missouri
University of Nebraska–Lincoln
University of Nevada, Reno
University of New Hampshire
Rutgers University
New Mexico State University
Ohio State University
Pennsylvania State University
University of Rhode Island
University of Tennessee
University of Vermont
University of Wisconsin–Madison
University of Wyoming
08-13-2019 09:12 PM
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orangefan Offline
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Post: #59
RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-13-2019 05:35 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(08-13-2019 02:56 PM)orangefan Wrote:  Once Syracuse, BC and Pitt turned down the chance to join up with Penn State in late 1981/early 1982, with the Big East's invitation to Pitt to join, but not Penn State, the only vehicle for an Eastern football conference was the Big East. I believe the Penn State made at least one more run at getting invited in the mid to late 1980's, but was unsuccessful. After that, things followed their ultimate course.

Tranghese said that in 1982, the Big East members voted 5-3 in favor of inviting Penn State, but 6 votes in favor were needed to extend an invitation.
https://www.espn.com/blog/bigeast/post/_.../undefined

This has also been said by Jake Crouthamel, former Syracuse AD.
https://cuse.com/sports/2001/8/8/history.aspx

Even if the Big East takes Penn State, though, it's hard to imagine how Penn State does not ultimately end up in the Big Ten, potentially at the same time they did anyway. There is simply to much cultural similarity.

Similarly, even if Syracuse, Pitt and BC go with Penn State in 1981 to form an Eastern Conference, it's hard to imagine that Penn State doesn't end up in the Big Ten. Perhaps the only way it doesn't happen is if the Eastern Conference poaches some strong schools from the ACC and independent ranks outside of the Northeast that put it on equal footing with the Big Ten with respect to the ability to negotiate TV rights.

Overall, the Big East failed to anticipate the success of NCAA members in winning the right to sell their own television rights and to appreciate the importance of football to those members who compete in that sport.
(This post was last modified: 08-14-2019 07:27 AM by orangefan.)
08-14-2019 07:26 AM
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Midwestan Offline
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Post: #60
RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
Thanks for the responses orangefan, slhNavy91, and esayem. I'm sort of an old coot and don't remember as much as I used to. I do remember that the Atlantic 10 was known as the Eastern 8 when it stared in the mid-70's! A top-tier Eastern Football League as envisioned by JoePa would have been a stretch, given that Army and Navy have small enrollments that are basically capped compared to their larger D-1 neighbors. I couldn't remember which happened first: Penn State joining the Big 10 OR West Virginia and Rutgers leaving the A-10 for the Big East.

Even though Rutgers and Temple had some minor successes in the mid- and late 70's, they were still seen as 'basketball first' schools, and it would have been hard for them and the service academies to be consistently competitive in football on a weekly basis, compared to the other 5 teams. Even if some people harbored thoughts of a new football conference involving Virginia Tech, Virginia, and Maryland, there was no way UVa or UMd would have done so by leaving the established ACC at that time.
(This post was last modified: 08-14-2019 08:18 AM by Midwestan.)
08-14-2019 08:18 AM
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