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P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
So I’ve wanted to do a thread for a while now about how modern day P5 status is mostly about the company a school kept prior to WWII (and in many cases, WWI) For the most part, the modern P5 are made up of schools that got into a Conference that evolved into or was the predecessor to a modern P5 or were an established top rate eastern independent and your program survived the war years. There’s only around a dozen or so P5 programs that are currently P5 that buck the trend:

Colorado (1947): the Buffaloes got the call up to the Big 6 from the Skyline

Mich St (1950): the Spartans were a pretty strong independent in the 1940’s and became a benefactor of Chicago’s self regulation from Big Ten membership

Texas Tech (1956): the Red Raiders got the call up to the SWC from the Border Conference

Oklahoma St (1958): The Cowboys enjoyed a nice ride in the big boys club from 1915-1925 in the SWC and from 1925-1928 in the Pre-split MVC before being relegated to the kiddie table for 30 years until their (re)invitation to the Big 8

Florida St and Miami: it’s hard to put an official date on when an independent became big time. I saw some sources out FSU’s rise at 1960 but others might mark it at 1976 with Bobby Bowden’s hire. Miami has some very early bowls in the 1930s but was largely irrelevant and on the cusp of being eliminated until Schnellenberger brought the Canes back to life in 1979

Arizona and Arizona St (1978): the Wildcats and Sun Devils, formerly conference mates of TTU in the Border Conference, made the jump from WAC to PAC 10, largely in part due to the state’s population boom

Virginia Tech (1991): Things started out so promising for the Hokies. They were SoCon founders in 1921, which would ordinarily mean they’d spend the next century in the elite club but in 1953 the ACC founders left them behind in a little league in favor of inviting the instate Cavaliers instead. They lingered on in the SoCon until 1965when they went Indy. Some might claim they regained big time status at some point as an Indy but joining the Big East in 1991 clearly marked them as top tier

Louisville (2005): The ACC’s raid on the BE opened up an opportunity for Louisville, Cincy, and USF of C-USA to ascend. It was short lived for the other two as only Louisville remains

Utah (2011): An ancient conference mate of Colorado and companion of the AZ schools for a few decades, got the call to the big show on the heels of the failed PAC 16 scheme. A 2004 Fiesta Bowl win provided nice audition material for the Utes

I was torn on whether or not to include WVU, Rutgers, BC, and Syracuse on this list. I’m not sure that all of their time as eastern independents was really at CFB’s highest level. WVU also had a spell, upon joining the SoCon in 1950, where they were abandoned with the little schools upon the ACC breakaway and spent 1953-1968 with schools that were decidedly not top tier until they returned to independence. Perhaps fans from these schools could help provide an argument/counter argument for why they were or weren’t competing at the highest echelons.
(This post was last modified: 08-12-2019 07:18 PM by Fighting Muskie.)
08-12-2019 05:11 PM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
How about TCU?
08-12-2019 06:50 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
UH was in the Country Club for 20 years.
08-12-2019 06:52 PM
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IWokeUpLikeThis Online
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RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
Yes, and this is why I always laugh at idiots from Illinois State or Missouri State who say “Iowa State and Kansas State are P5 and in smaller states. That’s where we belong. Fire the AD/President.”
08-12-2019 06:52 PM
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ColKurtz Offline
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RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-12-2019 05:11 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Virginia Tech (1991): Things started out so promising for the Hokies. They were SOCon founders in 1921, which would ordinarily mean they’s Spend the next century in the elite club but in 1953 the ACC founders left them behind in a little league in favor of inviting the instate Cavaliers instead. They lingered on in the SoCon until 1965when they went Indy. Some might claim they regained big time status at some point as an Indy but joining the Big East in 1991 clearly marked them as top tier

VT was pretty irrelevant as an indy. I went to Tech in the early 90s, and we could get seats on the 40 yard line, 20 rows back for most games. Even after joining the Big East in 1991, we still weren't nationally relevant. VT upped its reputation beating Miami 5 seasons in a row from '94 to '99, when Miami was still one of the top programs. But it really wasn't until Michael Vick that we got a spot at "top tier"... and it really wasn't top tier. It was a chance at turning the corner and becoming top tier, which never really happened. We're still in that second tier behind the blue bloods and new bloods.

But make no mistake, it was Big East membership that gave us to the opportunity. If another school like ECU got that invite, their situation would be much different today too.
08-12-2019 06:57 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-12-2019 06:50 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  How about TCU?

TCU was in the club from 1923-1996 and then came back in 2011 so I left them off the list. They are somewhat unique in that they are they only school that was present in 1945 that returned.
08-12-2019 07:05 PM
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RutgersMike Offline
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RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
The Eastern independents have a long football history with most programs having at least 100 years of having a football program. And one must remember before the Ivy League went non-scholarship, many of those schools were national powers.
08-12-2019 07:14 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-12-2019 06:52 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  UH was in the Country Club for 20 years.

Houston, Temple, UConn, Cincy, and USF all joined that club after 1945 but got booted.

Chicago, SMU, Rice, Tulane, Idaho, and Montana were in the club in 1945 but left permanently. I’m probably missing a few Eastern once independents and maybe 8 schools that got left behind in the SoCon in 1953 (William & Mary, Richmond, VMI, Citadel, Furman, Washington & Lee, Davidson, Geo. Washington?)
08-12-2019 07:14 PM
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UTEPDallas Online
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RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
The old WAC was part of the cartel back then. It even had a National Champion in 1984.

Arizona, Arizona State and Utah are now in a power conference. Wyoming, Colorado State, New Mexico, UTEP and BYU are on the outside looking in. You can include San Diego State, Fresno State and Hawaii which were members after 1981. The WAC was the Western version of the ACC (before Florida State). It had a seat in the big table until the beginning of the BCS predecessor, the Alliance and the WAC-16 fiasco.
08-12-2019 07:30 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-12-2019 07:30 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  The old WAC was part of the cartel back then. It even had a National Champion in 1984.

Arizona, Arizona State and Utah are now in a power conference. Wyoming, Colorado State, New Mexico, UTEP and BYU are on the outside looking in. You can include San Diego State, Fresno State and Hawaii which were members after 1981. The WAC was the Western version of the ACC (before Florida State). It had a seat in the big table until the beginning of the BCS predecessor, the Alliance and the WAC-16 fiasco.

If they were in the cartel then why weren’t they part of the bowl alliance/coalition in the 1990s? Because they weren’t
08-12-2019 07:54 PM
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RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-12-2019 07:14 PM)RutgersMike Wrote:  The Eastern independents have a long football history with most programs having at least 100 years of having a football program. And one must remember before the Ivy League went non-scholarship, many of those schools were national powers.

Syracuse had some bad years. At one point Penn St. quit playing there. But they were still always "major" and have an MNC in the late 50s and an incredible string of running backs. In contrast, Rutgers really wasn't major much of the period following 1869. BC I'm not as sure about. They were definitely major late 70s early 80s, but I don't know about 50s-60s.
08-12-2019 08:17 PM
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RutgersMike Offline
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RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-12-2019 08:17 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(08-12-2019 07:14 PM)RutgersMike Wrote:  The Eastern independents have a long football history with most programs having at least 100 years of having a football program. And one must remember before the Ivy League went non-scholarship, many of those schools were national powers.

Syracuse had some bad years. At one point Penn St. quit playing there. But they were still always "major" and have an MNC in the late 50s and an incredible string of running backs. In contrast, Rutgers really wasn't major much of the period following 1869. BC I'm not as sure about. They were definitely major late 70s early 80s, but I don't know about 50s-60s.

I will admit that Rutgers football history tends to be streaky. The point Is I was trying to make was that a long football history does matter when considering who belongs in the “club”.
08-12-2019 08:32 PM
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esayem Offline
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RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-12-2019 07:54 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(08-12-2019 07:30 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  The old WAC was part of the cartel back then. It even had a National Champion in 1984.

Arizona, Arizona State and Utah are now in a power conference. Wyoming, Colorado State, New Mexico, UTEP and BYU are on the outside looking in. You can include San Diego State, Fresno State and Hawaii which were members after 1981. The WAC was the Western version of the ACC (before Florida State). It had a seat in the big table until the beginning of the BCS predecessor, the Alliance and the WAC-16 fiasco.

If they were in the cartel then why weren’t they part of the bowl alliance/coalition in the 1990s? Because they weren’t

When they went to 16 their champ got the Cotton Bowl bid (or Pac runner-up). That was as close as they got.
08-12-2019 09:10 PM
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RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-12-2019 07:14 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(08-12-2019 06:52 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  UH was in the Country Club for 20 years.

Houston, Temple, UConn, Cincy, and USF all joined that club after 1945 but got booted.

Chicago, SMU, Rice, Tulane, Idaho, and Montana were in the club in 1945 but left permanently. I’m probably missing a few Eastern once independents and maybe 8 schools that got left behind in the SoCon in 1953 (William & Mary, Richmond, VMI, Citadel, Furman, Washington & Lee, Davidson, Geo. Washington?)

Rice, Tulane and Chicago all have hope.
08-12-2019 09:13 PM
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esayem Offline
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RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
One of the most random things I found was Louisville being a member of the SIAA, a precursor to the SoCon. They were only in the association for two years it seems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1915_South...all_season

Evidently they were at the "big boy table" way back when, but so was Chattanooga and Transylvania.
08-12-2019 09:17 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-12-2019 09:13 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(08-12-2019 07:14 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(08-12-2019 06:52 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  UH was in the Country Club for 20 years.

Houston, Temple, UConn, Cincy, and USF all joined that club after 1945 but got booted.

Chicago, SMU, Rice, Tulane, Idaho, and Montana were in the club in 1945 but left permanently. I’m probably missing a few Eastern once independents and maybe 8 schools that got left behind in the SoCon in 1953 (William & Mary, Richmond, VMI, Citadel, Furman, Washington & Lee, Davidson, Geo. Washington?)

Rice, Tulane and Chicago all have hope.

How so? None of those will ever be P5 again, especially Chicago. Ironically, Chicago and Tulane would still be in the club had they not deemphasized sports and left their conferences.
08-12-2019 09:21 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-12-2019 09:17 PM)esayem Wrote:  One of the most random things I found was Louisville being a member of the SIAA, a precursor to the SoCon. They were only in the association for two years it seems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1915_South...all_season

Evidently they were at the "big boy table" way back when, but so was Chattanooga and Transylvania.

True. 1921 would be the last year that the SIAA was a major conference. When the SoCon founders bailed things got decidedly mid major
08-12-2019 09:28 PM
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UTEPDallas Online
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RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-12-2019 07:54 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(08-12-2019 07:30 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  The old WAC was part of the cartel back then. It even had a National Champion in 1984.

Arizona, Arizona State and Utah are now in a power conference. Wyoming, Colorado State, New Mexico, UTEP and BYU are on the outside looking in. You can include San Diego State, Fresno State and Hawaii which were members after 1981. The WAC was the Western version of the ACC (before Florida State). It had a seat in the big table until the beginning of the BCS predecessor, the Alliance and the WAC-16 fiasco.

If they were in the cartel then why weren’t they part of the bowl alliance/coalition in the 1990s? Because they weren’t

If you read my last paragraph I answered your question. The Alliance and BCS didn’t include the WAC.....that and its expansion to 16 was what caused eight schools to form a new conference. Limited money, little to no exposure, lost rivalries and not being an AQ league in the new BCS didn’t make sense for a 16 team league to stay together. The question is, had the WAC decided not to expand and stay at nine or ten (Fresno State joined in 1992), would they have been included in the Alliance/BCS? Probably not but we will never know.

Rice, Tulane and SMU are old money schools that were once in a power conference. Houston was more of a newcomer and they were part of the cartel from 1976-1996.
(This post was last modified: 08-12-2019 10:14 PM by UTEPDallas.)
08-12-2019 10:11 PM
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RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
(08-12-2019 09:21 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(08-12-2019 09:13 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(08-12-2019 07:14 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(08-12-2019 06:52 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  UH was in the Country Club for 20 years.

Houston, Temple, UConn, Cincy, and USF all joined that club after 1945 but got booted.

Chicago, SMU, Rice, Tulane, Idaho, and Montana were in the club in 1945 but left permanently. I’m probably missing a few Eastern once independents and maybe 8 schools that got left behind in the SoCon in 1953 (William & Mary, Richmond, VMI, Citadel, Furman, Washington & Lee, Davidson, Geo. Washington?)

Rice, Tulane and Chicago all have hope.

How so? None of those will ever be P5 again, especially Chicago. Ironically, Chicago and Tulane would still be in the club had they not deemphasized sports and left their conferences.

Location and academics. Chances are against it but it's there. I also left off money and association, which Chicago has.
08-12-2019 10:40 PM
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RE: P5: It’s mostly about the company you kept pre-1945
It's mostly about being a flagship (34 of them):
Cal, UCLA, Washington, Oregon, Arizona, Utah, Colorado, Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, West Virginia, Nebraska, Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State, Maryland, Rutgers, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, LSU, Arkansas, Tennessee, Kentucky, Missouri

Or being a high budget, high profile athletics private school (13 of them):
Stanford, Southern Cal, TCU, Baylor, Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Notre Dame, Pitt, Syracuse, BC, Wake, Miami, Duke

I am going to throw one (1) specialty Engineering public school in with the privates:
Georgia Tech

We have at this point accounted for 48 schools. 28 of the 48 are AAU schools.

We then look at land grant schools, the "states" type schools of which there are 12:
Washington State, Oregon State, Texas A&M, Michigan State, Mississippi State, Auburn, Purdue, Oklahoma State, Iowa State, Kansas State, Virginia Tech, Clemson.

Note: Texas A&M is generally considered a 2nd flagship of Texas, much like UCLA is the 2nd flagship in California. And several flagships are land grants as well


The remaining 5 includes three "State" schools of enormous size, literally "best of breed":
NC State, Arizona State, Florida State

The final two: Louisville, Texas Tech

32 of the 65 are AAU.

Similar schools who didn't make the cut:

UConn (flagship), BYU, Colorado State (land Grant), Tulane, Rice

Of the above group UConn and BYU look the most like the P5, but UConn abandoned P5 aspirations with the Big East move. They started FBS football too late to make the cut (same for UMass). Tulane and Rice kind of fell out of major status over the decades.

When you look at the rest, they seem to be trying to get in on the "Louisville exception"; that is being so important in athletics it overrides everything else. Memphis, Boise State, Fresno State and UNLV all fall in that category. Houston, Cincy and perhaps Temple fall into a better version academically than Louisville. UCF and USF (and ECU) may be most comparable to the Texas Tech category, being directional, that is "other big State Universities than flagships or land grant".

The question is, are any of UCF, Houston, Cincy, USF big enough to overcome being the "Louisville" category to get into P5?
(This post was last modified: Yesterday 12:50 PM by Stugray2.)
08-12-2019 10:57 PM
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