In the 80's I don't think anyone could foresee where things would be by 2019.

Ohio in the 80's was hanging on to MAC membership by a thread. If the MAC couldn't remain at the top level for whatever reason there was plans to join up with Marshall and the Southern Conference. Football stadium at the time was only 17,500 with a huge amount of money required relative to what the school had at the time to go to 30,000.

But the school hung in there and quietly put FB facilities in, expanding to 19,000 in 1986. In the early 90's homecoming started pulling in 20,000 crowds suddenly. Enrollment numbers approached the Vietnam era peak and the size of the alumni base was exploding. The school then expanded to 24,000 which is bigger than any crowd it had before and sold it out the first game against Iowa State.

Frank Solich came to Athens in 2005, the same year Marshall exited the MAC. There was a vacuum in the TV package with Marshall leaving that Ohio w/ Solich was prepared to fill. This of course lead to more exposure, donations and facilities. The horseshoe in the stadium is now complete and at 27,000 is close to 30,000. The FB facility plan is now 95% complete with ribbon boards and a players lounge the final pieces finishing up within a year.

This is story really across the MAC; over three decades of FBS provided time to upgrade facilities. It hasn't been brand new stadiums with luxury lodges like the AAC but a lot of distance is now there between the MAC and FCS conferences.

Would northeastern football be stronger if the NCAA hadn't forced the Ivy League into 1AA?

Additonally, The Socon, the Soutland, and the MVC were especially given a raw deal. NMSU and Witchita St had their histories altered by the NCAA forcing the MVC out of 1A, since only 3 of 8 met the 1A requirements, and the threshold for a conference was 50%.

The MAC had tremendous foresight to fight back

Here is an overview of those forced out
https://stanforddailyarchive.com/cgi-bin...3-01.2.38#

(08-01-2019 09:53 AM)solohawks Wrote:  Would northeastern football be stronger if the NCAA hadn't forced the Ivy League into 1AA?

Additonally, The Socon, the Soutland, and the MVC were especially given a raw deal. NMSU and Witchita St had their histories altered by the NCAA forcing the MVC out of 1A, since only 3 of 8 met the 1A requirements, and the threshold for a conference was 50%.

The MAC had tremendous foresight to fight back

Here is an overview of those forced out
https://stanforddailyarchive.com/cgi-bin...3-01.2.38#

I was under the impression that the Ivy accepted I-AA voluntarily because of the no-scholarships thing and that if by chance they were to want to move back to the top division, the NCAA would make it work by hook or by crook.

Here is an old thread on the topic for the OP and any others interested. I find this topic incredibly interesting as it has such a great impact on conference realignment today and explains why some programs like NMSU are where they are

https://csnbbs.com/thread-747066.html

(08-01-2019 09:59 AM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(08-01-2019 09:53 AM)solohawks Wrote:  Would northeastern football be stronger if the NCAA hadn't forced the Ivy League into 1AA?

Additonally, The Socon, the Soutland, and the MVC were especially given a raw deal. NMSU and Witchita St had their histories altered by the NCAA forcing the MVC out of 1A, since only 3 of 8 met the 1A requirements, and the threshold for a conference was 50%.

The MAC had tremendous foresight to fight back

Here is an overview of those forced out
https://stanforddailyarchive.com/cgi-bin...3-01.2.38#

I was under the impression that the Ivy accepted I-AA voluntarily because of the no-scholarships thing and that if by chance they were to want to move back to the top division, the NCAA would make it work by hook or by crook.

All the Ivy's but Yale were forced to 1AA because of the new rules. Yale wasnt going to leave the Ivy league for 1A independence so they were the only school of the Ivys that voluntarily stepped down to 1AA. It doesnt looked like the Ivy's protested too much about the forced reclassification but they definitely chose to be 1A until 1AA was forced upon them

(07-31-2019 07:09 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  Don't you guys also think the requirement in place that to join FBS a school must have an invite from an FBS conference has shut the door on continued migration up?

There is the possibility of a waiver but there has to be a monster case for it to be made. Liberty was able to do it. NDSU could probably do it if it wanted. I don't think the votes are there for many more wavier cases.

I'm not sure if there is a better way to define FBS than what we have right now with the conference invite/scheduling requirement. To those who think the ranks should be pared down to 70-80 schools the bottom 50 or so have invested in facilities that puts them on a different level now than the average FCS program.

My guess is we'll see an expanded CFP instead because the traditional bowl system of big games played on New Year's weekend is starting to collapse with the 6 CFP bowls being all there is of importance. Expanding the CFP is one way to save those games while giving the G5 more fair access.

No because the invite rule is suspect under anti-trust analysis.

It solely exists to save NCAA staff some work.

The rule WAS that you had to show you had a complying schedule for the next four years but schedules tend to get fluid so they had to keep up with all the changes and switches and figure out what to do if Hopeful University had a schedule for 2020 that was in compliance but Enormous State moved the 2020 game to 2022 throwing Hopeful out of compliance.

Must invite was just simpler and less work.

Took them about 2 minutes to waive the requirement for Liberty and permit them to show a complying schedule.

(08-01-2019 10:19 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(07-31-2019 07:09 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  Don't you guys also think the requirement in place that to join FBS a school must have an invite from an FBS conference has shut the door on continued migration up?

There is the possibility of a waiver but there has to be a monster case for it to be made. Liberty was able to do it. NDSU could probably do it if it wanted. I don't think the votes are there for many more wavier cases.

I'm not sure if there is a better way to define FBS than what we have right now with the conference invite/scheduling requirement. To those who think the ranks should be pared down to 70-80 schools the bottom 50 or so have invested in facilities that puts them on a different level now than the average FCS program.

My guess is we'll see an expanded CFP instead because the traditional bowl system of big games played on New Year's weekend is starting to collapse with the 6 CFP bowls being all there is of importance. Expanding the CFP is one way to save those games while giving the G5 more fair access.

No because the invite rule is suspect under anti-trust analysis.

It solely exists to save NCAA staff some work.

The rule WAS that you had to show you had a complying schedule for the next four years but schedules tend to get fluid so they had to keep up with all the changes and switches and figure out what to do if Hopeful University had a schedule for 2020 that was in compliance but Enormous State moved the 2020 game to 2022 throwing Hopeful out of compliance.

Must invite was just simpler and less work.

Took them about 2 minutes to waive the requirement for Liberty and permit them to show a complying schedule.

If that is not a barrier then not a getting a cut of the CFP money without membership in G5 conference if you move up is the real barrier. Especially as that revenue stream continues to grow.

Yale and McNeese St were the only 2 schools that voluntarily stepped down to 1AA during this forced reclassification. Both chose conference over 1A independence. All others that stepped down did so my NCAA mandate. Some, like ULL, Cincinnati, and the MAC fought back, but most accepted their fate.

Here is a good conference by conference, school by school breakdown by Nerdlinger from the thread link above

All members qualified for I-A
ACC (7): Clemson, Duke, Maryland, NC State, North Carolina, Virginia, Wake Forest (Non-football: Georgia Tech)
Big 8: Colorado, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State
Big 10: Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Michigan, Michigan State, Minnesota, Northwestern, Ohio State, Purdue, Wisconsin
Pac-10: Arizona, Arizona State, California, Oregon, Oregon State, Stanford, UCLA, USC, Washington, Washington State
SEC (10): Alabama, Auburn, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, LSU, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Tennessee, Vanderbilt
SWC (9): Arkansas, Baylor, Houston, Rice, SMU, TCU, Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech
WAC (9): Air Force, BYU, Colorado State, Hawaii, New Mexico, San Diego State, Utah, UTEP, Wyoming

Over 50% of football members qualified for I-A
PCAA
Qualified (4): Fresno State, Pacific, UNLV (Ind in 1981; joined PCAA in 1982), Utah State
Not qualified but saved by conference (3): CSU Fullerton, Long Beach State, San Jose State
Non-football (2): UC Irvine, UC Santa Barbara

50% or fewer of football members qualified for I-A
MAC
Qualified (2): Central Michigan, Toledo
Initially not qualified but successfully contested reclassification (2): Miami-OH, Western Michigan
Not qualified, reclassified to I-AA for 1982 before returning to I-A in 1983 (6): Ball State, Bowling Green, Eastern Michigan, Kent State, Northern Illinois, Ohio

MVC
Qualified (3): New Mexico State, Tulsa, Wichita State
Not qualified, reclassified to I-AA (5): Drake, Illinois State, Indiana State, Southern Illinois, West Texas
Non-football (2): Bradley, Creighton

Ivy
Qualified but voluntarily reclassified to I-AA (1): Yale
Not qualified, reclassified to I-AA (7): Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Harvard, Penn, Princeton

Southland
Initially not qualified but successfully contested reclassification (1): SW Louisiana (left to become I-A Ind in 1982)
Qualified but voluntarily reclassified to I-AA (1): McNeese State
Not qualified, reclassified to I-AA (4): Arkansas State, Lamar, Louisiana Tech, Texas-Arlington

SoCon
Not qualified, reclassified to I-AA (8): Appalachian State, Chattanooga, Citadel, East Tennessee, Furman, Marshall, VMI, Western Carolina

Independents
Qualified (20): Army, Boston College, East Carolina, Florida State, Georgia Tech, Louisville, Memphis, Miami-FL, Navy, Notre Dame, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, South Carolina, Southern Miss, Syracuse, Temple, Tulane, Virginia Tech, West Virginia
Initially not qualified but successfully contested reclassification (1): Cincinnati
Not qualified, reclassified to I-AA (6): Colgate, Holy Cross, NE Louisiana, North Texas, Richmond, William & Mary

Totals
Qualified for I-A = 92
Initially not qualified but successfully contested reclassification = 4
Not qualified but saved by conference = 3
Total remaining in I-A in 1982 = 99

Qualified but voluntarily reclassified to I-AA = 2
Not qualified, reclassified to I-AA for 1982 before returning to I-A in 1983 = 6
Other not qualified, reclassified to I-AA = 30
Total reclassified from I-A to I-AA for 1982 = 38

(07-31-2019 04:41 PM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  

(07-31-2019 04:08 PM)Once a Knight... Wrote:  

(07-31-2019 03:53 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  I always refer to it as 1981 because the vote was in late 1981 but it in no way, shape, nor form was related to 1978's creation of I-A/I-AA.

1981 was NCAA crassness at its prime. The powers in Shawnee Mission wanted OU and UGA to drop the anti-trust lawsuit, they wanted the CFA to quit trying to do its own TV.

The solution they came up with was change the "or" in the I-A criteria between sport sponsorship and attendance criteria to an "and" to eliminate a bunch of schools.

The NCAA tried to sugar coat making the following promises. There would be more post-season opportunities, there would be a minimum amount of TV coverage, and there would be no changes that would interfere with schools continuing to play each other if they ended up on different sides of the split.

Horse manure all around.
In short order post-season was deregulated in I-A and every FBS league ended up having more post-season opportunities than any FCS.
The TV deal couldn't be delivered because the NCAA lost the lawsuits and the TV contract.
Before the decade ended the 6-5 bowl eligibility rule was adopted and initially no wins over I-AA would count then it was only one win every four years.

That final change broke the camels back and spurred a dash of schools rushing to I-A. In short order, Akron, LaTech, AState and Nevada were all in or back in I-A and it didn't help when schools regularly playing them said they would no longer play because the bowl eligibility rules.

The schools forced into I-AA got screwed 10 ways to Sunday as the NCAA didn't deliver on the promises and failed the primary missing on keeping the power school using the NCAA to negotiate the TV deal.

Well this sure changes the narrative a bit from what Jared7 said above. I had a feeling it was more like this. Who was the driving force at the time? The Power Conferences/large schools or was it the NCAA?

I've never really understood this distinction. The power conferences/large schools ARE the NCAA.

Still the era of one school/one vote. At that point it had been less than 10 years since federated voting. Ten years earlier, every NCAA member regardless of classification would have voted.

December 1981 every Division I-A cast a vote and they were weighted equally.

Cabinet voting and weighted voting has basically precluded we see this sort of thing again. The stipend issue override is the closest we've come to true secession in the NCAA in three decades. When the I-AA and I-AAA over-rode the I-A schools (in general, some I-A like Wake Forest voted no) we were on the cusp of secession because the I-A leagues had real money at stake in litigation over cost of attendance. That's why when autonomy was created stipend was issue 1.

Members of the Yankee Conference went 1AA . UMass and UConn chose to stay there, hence voluntarily chose 1AA.

(08-01-2019 10:24 AM)solohawks Wrote:  Yale and McNeese St were the only 2 schools that voluntarily stepped down to 1AA during this forced reclassification. Both chose conference over 1A independence. All others that stepped down did so my NCAA mandate. Some, like ULL, Cincinnati, and the MAC fought back, but most accepted their fate.

Here is a good conference by conference, school by school breakdown by Nerdlinger from the thread link above

All members qualified for I-A
ACC (7): Clemson, Duke, Maryland, NC State, North Carolina, Virginia, Wake Forest (Non-football: Georgia Tech)
Big 8: Colorado, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State
Big 10: Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Michigan, Michigan State, Minnesota, Northwestern, Ohio State, Purdue, Wisconsin
Pac-10: Arizona, Arizona State, California, Oregon, Oregon State, Stanford, UCLA, USC, Washington, Washington State
SEC (10): Alabama, Auburn, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, LSU, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Tennessee, Vanderbilt
SWC (9): Arkansas, Baylor, Houston, Rice, SMU, TCU, Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech
WAC (9): Air Force, BYU, Colorado State, Hawaii, New Mexico, San Diego State, Utah, UTEP, Wyoming

Over 50% of football members qualified for I-A
PCAA
Qualified (4): Fresno State, Pacific, UNLV (Ind in 1981; joined PCAA in 1982), Utah State
Not qualified but saved by conference (3): CSU Fullerton, Long Beach State, San Jose State
Non-football (2): UC Irvine, UC Santa Barbara

50% or fewer of football members qualified for I-A
MAC
Qualified (2): Central Michigan, Toledo
Initially not qualified but successfully contested reclassification (2): Miami-OH, Western Michigan
Not qualified, reclassified to I-AA for 1982 before returning to I-A in 1983 (6): Ball State, Bowling Green, Eastern Michigan, Kent State, Northern Illinois, Ohio

MVC
Qualified (3): New Mexico State, Tulsa, Wichita State
Not qualified, reclassified to I-AA (5): Drake, Illinois State, Indiana State, Southern Illinois, West Texas
Non-football (2): Bradley, Creighton

Ivy
Qualified but voluntarily reclassified to I-AA (1): Yale
Not qualified, reclassified to I-AA (7): Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Harvard, Penn, Princeton

Southland
Initially not qualified but successfully contested reclassification (1): SW Louisiana (left to become I-A Ind in 1982)
Qualified but voluntarily reclassified to I-AA (1): McNeese State
Not qualified, reclassified to I-AA (4): Arkansas State, Lamar, Louisiana Tech, Texas-Arlington

SoCon
Not qualified, reclassified to I-AA (8): Appalachian State, Chattanooga, Citadel, East Tennessee, Furman, Marshall, VMI, Western Carolina

Independents
Qualified (20): Army, Boston College, East Carolina, Florida State, Georgia Tech, Louisville, Memphis, Miami-FL, Navy, Notre Dame, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, South Carolina, Southern Miss, Syracuse, Temple, Tulane, Virginia Tech, West Virginia
Initially not qualified but successfully contested reclassification (1): Cincinnati
Not qualified, reclassified to I-AA (6): Colgate, Holy Cross, NE Louisiana, North Texas, Richmond, William & Mary

Totals
Qualified for I-A = 92
Initially not qualified but successfully contested reclassification = 4
Not qualified but saved by conference = 3
Total remaining in I-A in 1982 = 99

Qualified but voluntarily reclassified to I-AA = 2
Not qualified, reclassified to I-AA for 1982 before returning to I-A in 1983 = 6
Other not qualified, reclassified to I-AA = 30
Total reclassified from I-A to I-AA for 1982 = 38

Reminds me of another point re: 1981 vote.

Only time I've found where there was no grace period nor opportunity to comply given. Wouldn't have worked had there been such an opportunity because Arkansas State and Louisiana Tech would have quickly adjusted giving the SLC enough schools. North Texas entered the SLC afterward but they could have met in 1982 had the administration been so inclined.

When we went to the federated system, schools were not only given a few YEARS to consider the options and choose their alignment, they were given time to comply. Pre-federated schools bounced in and out (see Idaho) because the primary determinant was who you play. Then we later started adding sport sponsorship and max aid caps (but not minimums).

1981's forced realignment was completely unique in NCAA history in being designed as a gotcha. The proposed legislation wasn't circulated until it was too late to react and there was no opportunity to comply. It was designed as a gotcha to get as many schools as possible off the NCAA tv contract. Up until shortly before the NCAA convention when the attendance numbers for the season were reviewed, it was believed MAC and PCAA were out.

(08-01-2019 10:34 AM)Steve1981 Wrote:  Members of the Yankee Conference went 1AA . UMass and UConn chose to stay there, hence voluntarily chose 1AA.

Really? They were both averaging 17k over a four year period or 20k home/away over four year period because neither could avail themselves of the one in four rules because neither had 30k seats.

(07-31-2019 04:00 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  The only schools not going down without a fight will be the ones who are broke and use it as cover to avoid "voluntarily" dropping. Otherwise there will be a fight and if no one blinks we are headed to court and the courts ain't never been kind towards the NCAA in anti-trust matters.

That's why if another big divisional shakeup occurs *, it will be more likely to be the P5 leaving to form their own organization than via the P5 getting the NCAA to kick G5 schools out of FBS and down to FCS or to another made up division.

Legally, it's a lot harder to kick someone out of something they are already in, than to leave them behind for another place.



* ... which I don't actually see occurring, as the P5 likes having the G5 around.


SJ + MS 8/1/79
40 years, RIP

(08-01-2019 10:58 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-31-2019 04:00 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  The only schools not going down without a fight will be the ones who are broke and use it as cover to avoid "voluntarily" dropping. Otherwise there will be a fight and if no one blinks we are headed to court and the courts ain't never been kind towards the NCAA in anti-trust matters.

That's why if another big divisional shakeup occurs *, it will be more likely to be the P5 leaving to form their own organization than via the P5 getting the NCAA to kick G5 schools out of FBS and down to FCS or to another made up division.

Legally, it's a lot harder to kick someone out of something they are already in, than to leave them behind for another place.



* ... which I don't actually see occurring, as the P5 likes having the G5 around.

New organization changes the equation some and a lot would depend on how the courts viewed it all.

If they treated it like a trade association and can show a rational basis for the standards the odds of success are pretty good. Unless they were just stupid in how they crafted the criteria I think its a winner if the courts will view it that way.

Right after the stipend override there were some different ideas spitballed around for secession. Some of the ideas would make your head hurt, autonomy was the solution and by far the best in my opinion because it was more true to the better history of the association.

We didn't used to care about attendance counts and stuff like that. First we started off with your classification is based on who you play. Then it was who you play + do you sponsor a lot of sports or not + are you willing to compete against others offering athletic based aid.

You could be Division I football awarding 125 scholarships to 0 scholarships to something in-between and the system worked just fine.

Two of Arkansas State's "biggest" wins as a member of College Division I (very roughly equivalent to a Division II / FCS mashup), AState was awarding as many scholarships as the University Division schools they beat. Neither class capped football aid, only College Division II did that by barring it completely. AState was just choosing to play other regional schools in College Division I and choosing to compete for the College Division Bowl games at the time rather than playing mostly University Division teams and competing for University Division Bowls.

It was the free market era baby!

(08-01-2019 10:48 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(08-01-2019 10:34 AM)Steve1981 Wrote:  Members of the Yankee Conference went 1AA . UMass and UConn chose to stay there, hence voluntarily chose 1AA.

Really? They were both averaging 17k over a four year period or 20k home/away over four year period because neither could avail themselves of the one in four rules because neither had 30k seats.

Probably wet behind the ears, but my understand is we had a choice back then. When UMass decided not to go 1A coach MacPherson left. We had temporary bleaches in those days and had 20k during some games as against Boston College.

Quote:In the years between 1971-1977, he was head coach at UMass, where he posted a 45-27 overall record, won four Yankee Conference Championships, and took the team to the Boardwalk Bowl.

MacPherson's 45 victories rank third all-time in UMass history, and his .778 winning percentage ranks fifth-best in league history. He was chosen New England Coach of the Year while at UMass twice.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2999...macpherson

(08-01-2019 12:58 PM)Steve1981 Wrote:  

(08-01-2019 10:48 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(08-01-2019 10:34 AM)Steve1981 Wrote:  Members of the Yankee Conference went 1AA . UMass and UConn chose to stay there, hence voluntarily chose 1AA.

Really? They were both averaging 17k over a four year period or 20k home/away over four year period because neither could avail themselves of the one in four rules because neither had 30k seats.

Probably wet behind the ears, but my understand is we had a choice back then. When UMass decided not to go 1A coach MacPherson left. We had temporary bleaches in those days and had 20k during some games as against Boston College.

Quote:In the years between 1971-1977, he was head coach at UMass, where he posted a 45-27 overall record, won four Yankee Conference Championships, and took the team to the Boardwalk Bowl.

MacPherson's 45 victories rank third all-time in UMass history, and his .778 winning percentage ranks fifth-best in league history. He was chosen New England Coach of the Year while at UMass twice.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2999...macpherson

Interesting. With right non-conference slate, 20k home/away not that hard, especially if sprinkle in some 20k at home.

(08-01-2019 09:15 AM)Bobcat2013 Wrote:  

(07-31-2019 04:29 PM)2Buck Wrote:  

Lmao, that is hilarious! As much as I want FBS to be closed at a neat 130, yall need to move up!

We have very large schools stuck in FCS and D2 right now. There are so many small schools in D1 right now.

(08-01-2019 01:54 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(08-01-2019 09:15 AM)Bobcat2013 Wrote:  

(07-31-2019 04:29 PM)2Buck Wrote:  

Lmao, that is hilarious! As much as I want FBS to be closed at a neat 130, yall need to move up!

We have very large schools stuck in FCS and D2 right now. There are so many small schools in D1 right now.

I suspect few if any of the schools you deem "stuck" consider themselves to be stuck, rather they likely think they are competing at the appropriate level for their interests.

Mcneese St is an interesting what if. They met the "gotcha" qualifications and still chose to drop down since they didnt wanna leave the Southland. Where would they be now if they had stayed?

(08-01-2019 02:04 PM)solohawks Wrote:  Mcneese St is an interesting what if. They met the "gotcha" qualifications and still chose to drop down since they didnt wanna leave the Southland. Where would they be now if they had stayed?

We could assume they follow the same path as Louisiana except the Cajuns were historically bad when they went to the independent ranks. The Cajuns had posted one winning season in the past four, that same span the Cowboys had two "bad" seasons of 7 wins, a 10 win and an 11 win season.

McNeese hit a sort of funk but who knows what they do the indy years. Cajuns found their way at and around .500 for a pretty good stretch before going into a sustained bad period starting mid-90's.

Maybe the Cowboys land in CUSA or CUSA 2.0? Maybe they get swept up in the WAC expansion(s) or maybe the rigors of being independent they lose their initial advantage vs Louisiana.