(02-10-2023 09:43 AM)Grungy Wrote:  Baylor's board approves improvements...

https://www.baylor.edu/alumni/magazine/2...?id=987216

It must be nice. We don't have any big time donors?

(02-10-2023 10:51 AM)Ourland Wrote:  

(02-10-2023 08:59 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(02-09-2023 11:10 AM)Grungy Wrote:  Bringing more electrical service to the stadium is a long-term project that I've never heard mentioned, except as the reason for not improving things that require more amperage.
It's a huge undertaking.
The cables have to come and go - somewhere.

The Waltrip dome was supposed to have double the AC capacity that it got, but there wasn't the power to support it.

This just kills me.

Add some solar panels or wind vanes to the top of the stadium and some batteries and you have all the power you can handle at the stadium. You have months where there is little power used and all sorts of sun... and the 'grid' can supplement it during quicker turn-arounds because you don't use a lot of that power for many days in between events.

I could only guess at what the power storage requirements would be, but as I've suggested... space is not really an issue nor are we bound by current technology. It seems to me this would be an ideal place to test 'alternative' electric storage/generation ideas... especially ones that were more green like kinetic storage.

Agree. For God's sake, our stadium doesn't even have electricity. Install some solar panels at the top of the east deck at least. Do something. Can't we tap into the same power source as the stadium lights? What's going on? There's electricity in the stadium, but not enough?

Enough to run a 1950s stadium. But apparently not enough for a modern one. Lots more electrical stuff out there now. No one is sitting in the press box with a manual typewrite now.

(02-10-2023 10:53 AM)Ourland Wrote:  

(02-10-2023 09:43 AM)Grungy Wrote:  Baylor's board approves improvements...

https://www.baylor.edu/alumni/magazine/2...?id=987216

It must be nice. We don't have any big time donors?

Rice has lots of big time donors. What it does not have is many big time donors not named Tudor, Youngkin, or Patterson that have passion for the direction of the $ athletic program(s) and product(s) on the field/court to throw good $ after bad.

Chicken/Egg. University would like to see private $ show-up to fund more and private $/donors want to see University have an actionable plan (not platitudes) that they will fund and get behind to be relevant in the $ sports. So things stay in purgatory funding a relatively static ~$10M loss each year with very modest capex improvements around-the-edges while hoping for the product on field to improve. Kind of rinse/repeat mode each year and hard to see the AD, Pera, and Bloom being the ones that are going to break the status quo.

(02-10-2023 11:30 AM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  

(02-10-2023 10:51 AM)Ourland Wrote:  

(02-10-2023 08:59 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(02-09-2023 11:10 AM)Grungy Wrote:  Bringing more electrical service to the stadium is a long-term project that I've never heard mentioned, except as the reason for not improving things that require more amperage.
It's a huge undertaking.
The cables have to come and go - somewhere.

The Waltrip dome was supposed to have double the AC capacity that it got, but there wasn't the power to support it.

This just kills me.

Add some solar panels or wind vanes to the top of the stadium and some batteries and you have all the power you can handle at the stadium. You have months where there is little power used and all sorts of sun... and the 'grid' can supplement it during quicker turn-arounds because you don't use a lot of that power for many days in between events.

I could only guess at what the power storage requirements would be, but as I've suggested... space is not really an issue nor are we bound by current technology. It seems to me this would be an ideal place to test 'alternative' electric storage/generation ideas... especially ones that were more green like kinetic storage.

Agree. For God's sake, our stadium doesn't even have electricity. Install some solar panels at the top of the east deck at least. Do something. Can't we tap into the same power source as the stadium lights? What's going on? There's electricity in the stadium, but not enough?

Enough to run a 1950s stadium. But apparently not enough for a modern one. Lots more electrical stuff out there now. No one is sitting in the press box with a manual typewrite now.

This article describes modern stadium electricity demands. It appears to be written about large, modern soccer stadiums, but there is plenty of overlap.

When HRS was built in 1950, it was out on the prairie on the west end of campus.
At the time, the principal loads were the stadium lights, the lighting for the press box (no AC yet), offices on the south end, the dressing rooms, and the off-field places for fans.
Also - they chose not to run the utilities to it through a new steam tunnel.
A steam tunnel would have provided room for expansion of services - no additional digging required.
I would guess that the conduits used instead reached capacity long ago.
There's also the matter of crossing the buried Harris Gully, without compromising flow rates.

Now we have huge AC demands, a pressure-supported dome that's always "on" (and it's part of the AC demand), and a giant Daktronics scoreboard (that is pretty much always on, and requires cooling).
Plus the 1950s loads (although the lighting is a lot more efficient than it used to be).

Concessions back then were much simpler, too.
The modern fan wants fast-modern food choices, and they are best prepared on-site.
That requires a lot of power, for both refrigeration of supplies and cooking.

The investment needed is significant, and it isn't glamorous.
What donor (other than me) would want their name on a trench?
(And short of winning the PowerBall, I will never have that kind of money.)

The Grungy Trench.

Sounds very Rice-like.

(02-10-2023 08:59 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  . It seems to me this would be an ideal place to test 'alternative' electric storage/generation ideas... especially ones that were more green like kinetic storage.

Plus this could also potentially look really cool (massive blocks hanging in the air) and probably get some free media attention.

(02-10-2023 03:37 PM)Middle Ages Wrote:  

(02-10-2023 08:59 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  . It seems to me this would be an ideal place to test 'alternative' electric storage/generation ideas... especially ones that were more green like kinetic storage.

Plus this could also potentially look really cool (massive blocks hanging in the air) and probably get some free media attention.

A row of these...

(02-10-2023 04:46 PM)Grungy Wrote:  A row of these...

Cue Tennessee Ernie Ford!!

(02-10-2023 11:53 AM)owl40 Wrote:  

(02-10-2023 10:53 AM)Ourland Wrote:  

(02-10-2023 09:43 AM)Grungy Wrote:  Baylor's board approves improvements...

https://www.baylor.edu/alumni/magazine/2...?id=987216

It must be nice. We don't have any big time donors?

Rice has lots of big time donors. What it does not have is many big time donors not named Tudor, Youngkin, or Patterson that have passion for the direction of the $ athletic program(s) and product(s) on the field/court to throw good $ after bad.

Chicken/Egg. University would like to see private $ show-up to fund more and private $/donors want to see University have an actionable plan (not platitudes) that they will fund and get behind to be relevant in the $ sports. So things stay in purgatory funding a relatively static ~$10M loss each year with very modest capex improvements around-the-edges while hoping for the product on field to improve. Kind of rinse/repeat mode each year and hard to see the AD, Pera, and Bloom being the ones that are going to break the status quo.

Sounds right. The stadium isn’t awful at all, but it would be nice to have some modern amenities. And some fans.

Yes, it's about having ENOUGH power....

Hence why I said... you could slow charge/store enough power on the 200+ days when the lights, concessions and press box aren't used either through solar, wind or even the limited grid we have now already... IF we had the storage capacity....

And this is a problem that is global. It would impact ever single stadium, lots of offices, factories etc etc etc worldwide... the applications in India alone are potentially worth trillions... and the government likely sponsors energy storage technology research at Universities... so the stadium becomes PART OF THAT RESEARCH. It can also be done at The Track stadium, reckling and even Tudor, though HRS has much more opportunity.

Heck, imagine if you could use parking garages and elevator shafts to kinetically store energy to power vital emergency equipment at hospitals during floods or hurricanes or what have you? Imagine if you could store 2-3 (or 30) days of power for your home in case of an emergency power outage in the walls or attic?

We're already doing much of this of course, but a lot of it requires fossil fuels and can be expensive. Kinetic storage can be stupidly cheap and even use dirt or sand or water itself. Heck, make the flood waters power the energy.

Again, this is only partly an idea about fixing the stadium. It is more importantly about increasing the integration between our academic and athletic endeavors... and yes, OF COURSE it could get a lot of attention because reporters be talking about it every time they were at the stadium.


You know the guys who run with parachutes attached to their backs or flip tires?? What if we could capture some of the energy from a work-out from 200+ athletes to power the stadiums??

(02-13-2023 12:42 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Yes, it's about having ENOUGH power....

Hence why I said... you could slow charge/store enough power on the 200+ days when the lights, concessions and press box aren't used either through solar, wind or even the limited grid we have now already... IF we had the storage capacity....

And this is a problem that is global. It would impact ever single stadium, lots of offices, factories etc etc etc worldwide... the applications in India alone are potentially worth trillions... and the government likely sponsors energy storage technology research at Universities... so the stadium becomes PART OF THAT RESEARCH. It can also be done at The Track stadium, reckling and even Tudor, though HRS has much more opportunity.

Heck, imagine if you could use parking garages and elevator shafts to kinetically store energy to power vital emergency equipment at hospitals during floods or hurricanes or what have you? Imagine if you could store 2-3 (or 30) days of power for your home in case of an emergency power outage in the walls or attic?

We're already doing much of this of course, but a lot of it requires fossil fuels and can be expensive. Kinetic storage can be stupidly cheap and even use dirt or sand or water itself. Heck, make the flood waters power the energy.

Again, this is only partly an idea about fixing the stadium. It is more importantly about increasing the integration between our academic and athletic endeavors... and yes, OF COURSE it could get a lot of attention because reporters be talking about it every time they were at the stadium.


You know the guys who run with parachutes attached to their backs or flip tires?? What if we could capture some of the energy from a work-out from 200+ athletes to power the stadiums??

While I agree it seems ridiculously embarrassing that a university formerly known for its engineering program can't seem to run enough power to modernize its football stadium, and forgive me if maybe I missed that part of your proposal, but I was curious as to where you'd propose to put the landfill, Ham?

(02-13-2023 12:54 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  While I agree it seems ridiculously embarrassing that a university formerly known for its engineering program can't seem to run enough power to modernize its football stadium, and forgive me if maybe I missed that part of your proposal, but I was curious as to where you'd propose to put the landfill, Ham?

What Landfill? As others have alluded to, I'm suggesting kinetic energy storage which is a simple weight that is lifted when power is present (could be from wind or solar or grid) and then drops and turns a turbine/generator when it is needed.

Mostly though, I don't pretend to have 'the answer'. The entire point is to make the stadium a testing site for alternative energy storage... an academic pirsuit, particularly that which doesn't need rare earth metals... particularly if it can be created using 'whatever' resource is available where the power is needed. Nasa uses flyweel energy storage. I've seen a company that works in remote parts of Africa and uses 'dirt' because that is what is there... to power things like water pump wells and simple lights. Maybe it could be radio waves or gamma waves or who knows what. I just named some that come to my simple mind that every stadium in the world has... and we could put into action very quickly

(02-13-2023 02:04 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(02-13-2023 12:54 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  While I agree it seems ridiculously embarrassing that a university formerly known for its engineering program can't seem to run enough power to modernize its football stadium, and forgive me if maybe I missed that part of your proposal, but I was curious as to where you'd propose to put the landfill, Ham?

What Landfill? As others have alluded to, I'm suggesting kinetic energy storage which is a simple weight that is lifted when power is present (could be from wind or solar or grid) and then drops and turns a turbine/generator when it is needed.

Mostly though, I don't pretend to have 'the answer'. The entire point is to make the stadium a testing site for alternative energy storage... an academic pirsuit, particularly that which doesn't need rare earth metals... particularly if it can be created using 'whatever' resource is available where the power is needed. Nasa uses flyweel energy storage. I've seen a company that works in remote parts of Africa and uses 'dirt' because that is what is there... to power things like water pump wells and simple lights. Maybe it could be radio waves or gamma waves or who knows what. I just named some that come to my simple mind that every stadium in the world has... and we could put into action very quickly

Is there anyone on this Board that honestly believes the right group of Parliamentarians couldn’t do a better job of running Rice Athletics? I certainly don’t see them doing any worse than the last 50-60 years. At least they are proposing news ideas rather than repeating the things that haven’t worked at Rice in decades.

For some perspective, 10 tons suspended 50 feet in the air is 377 watt-hours. You could run a coffee-maker for about half an hour with that.

(02-13-2023 02:35 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  For some perspective, 10 tons suspended 50 feet in the air is 377 watt-hours. You could run a coffee-maker for about half an hour with that.

Thank you for that, Frizzy. And I think you should get the prize for the most Rice-centric post in this thread.
Kudos.

(02-13-2023 02:35 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  For some perspective, 10 tons suspended 50 feet in the air is 377 watt-hours. You could run a coffee-maker for about half an hour with that.

Which only demonstrates how valuable advances in this technology could be.

(02-13-2023 02:04 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(02-13-2023 12:54 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  While I agree it seems ridiculously embarrassing that a university formerly known for its engineering program can't seem to run enough power to modernize its football stadium, and forgive me if maybe I missed that part of your proposal, but I was curious as to where you'd propose to put the landfill, Ham?

What Landfill? As others have alluded to, I'm suggesting kinetic energy storage which is a simple weight that is lifted when power is present (could be from wind or solar or grid) and then drops and turns a turbine/generator when it is needed.

Mostly though, I don't pretend to have 'the answer'. The entire point is to make the stadium a testing site for alternative energy storage... an academic pirsuit, particularly that which doesn't need rare earth metals... particularly if it can be created using 'whatever' resource is available where the power is needed. Nasa uses flyweel energy storage. I've seen a company that works in remote parts of Africa and uses 'dirt' because that is what is there... to power things like water pump wells and simple lights. Maybe it could be radio waves or gamma waves or who knows what. I just named some that come to my simple mind that every stadium in the world has... and we could put into action very quickly

To bury the wind blades after every 9 years as they cannot be recycled and have to be changed. And to bury the solar panels as they only last up to about 20-25 years and it is prohibitively expensive to try to extract the materials for recycling as well as very difficult, so most solar panels are buried, leaching into the soil. Plus the hundreds or possibly thousands of dead large bird carcasses over their lifespan so they don't stay in place after they strike the wind blades, fall down to the ground and rot in place, which smells and can transmit disease and takes a while--those need to be buried as well. Wind and solar create significant environmental hazards and need to be accounted for. I know you are a responsible person who would want to clean up after yourself; Shirley you weren't suggesting to dump our trash in someone else's yard?





I certainly wouldn't want all that toxic wind and solar waste to be from anything we did here on campus, but here are some relevant links on the thorny issues of disposal of toxic wastes from wind and solar, which are anything but cheap or free and certainly far, far from being environmentally freindly or responsible:

Wind Turbine Blades CAN'T Be Recycled, So They’re Piling Up In Landfills
Tune in as Casper City Council discuss wind turbines, snow plowing and more
Toxic Time Bomb of Waste from Solar Panels in Landfills
Tossing Old Solar Panels Into Landfill Is Greener Than Recycling Them
Windfarms kill 10-20 times more than previously thought

FYI, in the time since the 2010 BP oil spill in the Gulf, some 2.9 million birds have been killed by wind turbines, compared to only 800,000 that have been killed by the oil spill...It should also be noted that wind turbines routinely kill lots of federally protected birds especially the rarer large birds the ecology needs for balance in nature such as eagles, hawks, falcons, et cetera. (link)

I know how conscientious those at the University are about the environment, so I'd imagine that they'd plan for the large landfill somewhere on University grounds for all the toxic waste from the wind and solar energy on campus...I just didn't know where since so much of the campus has steam tunnels under it, but I figured you'd already had a location and disposal plan in mind.

Also, since the school's mascot is the Owl, many of which can be large predators, I don't know how comfortable we'd be repeatedly killing lots of similar birds just to get a few extra watts? Or maybe you were thinking of our mascot more like most of our football squads have played:


I was hoping to get back to this kind of OWL...


Considering the significant negative environmental and humane costs of wind and solar, I'd opt not to use them at all, but then, I like animals and not everyone does...Considering the scientific knowlegde available on campus, I'd vote for Nuclear power as the most practical and cleanest, and perhaps we could even sell a few extra watts...

(02-13-2023 02:19 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  Is there anyone on this Board that honestly believes the right group of Parliamentarians couldn’t do a better job of running Rice Athletics? I certainly don’t see them doing any worse than the last 50-60 years. At least they are proposing news ideas rather than repeating the things that haven’t worked at Rice in decades.

I'd certainly opine it seems reasonable to agree that a Parliament of us posting Owls would be unlikely to be able to do much worse for Rice Athletics than has been done for the past 50-60 years, at least in the big sports, except baseball under OG (and I'm rooting for Chito)...I've opted many times for significant investment in better coaching hires commensurate with the top of D-I pay at the big schools since we haven't seemed to get much return from what we have spent over the years anyway, and we used to be right up there in the Top 20 with those schools so we have a history, and a nice big Historic Rice Stadium that it would be nice to fill up again. Maybe that's why the admin and athletic leaders don't seem to much want us to do well in football...they'd have to address the electrical issues? Certainly is Unconventional "wisdom"? Or rather, penny smart, pound foolish...

(02-13-2023 03:42 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  

(02-13-2023 02:04 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(02-13-2023 12:54 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  While I agree it seems ridiculously embarrassing that a university formerly known for its engineering program can't seem to run enough power to modernize its football stadium, and forgive me if maybe I missed that part of your proposal, but I was curious as to where you'd propose to put the landfill, Ham?

What Landfill? As others have alluded to, I'm suggesting kinetic energy storage which is a simple weight that is lifted when power is present (could be from wind or solar or grid) and then drops and turns a turbine/generator when it is needed.

Mostly though, I don't pretend to have 'the answer'. The entire point is to make the stadium a testing site for alternative energy storage... an academic pirsuit, particularly that which doesn't need rare earth metals... particularly if it can be created using 'whatever' resource is available where the power is needed. Nasa uses flyweel energy storage. I've seen a company that works in remote parts of Africa and uses 'dirt' because that is what is there... to power things like water pump wells and simple lights. Maybe it could be radio waves or gamma waves or who knows what. I just named some that come to my simple mind that every stadium in the world has... and we could put into action very quickly

To bury the wind blades after every 9 years as they cannot be recycled and have to be changed. And to bury the solar panels as they only last up to about 20-25 years and it is prohibitively expensive to try to extract the materials for recycling as well as very difficult, so most solar panels are buried, leaching into the soil. Plus the hundreds or possibly thousands of dead large bird carcasses over their lifespan so they don't stay in place after they strike the wind blades, fall down to the ground and rot in place, which smells and can transmit disease and takes a while--those need to be buried as well. Wind and solar create significant environmental hazards and need to be accounted for. I know you are a responsible person who would want to clean up after yourself; Shirley you weren't suggesting to dump our trash in someone else's yard?





I certainly wouldn't want all that toxic wind and solar waste to be from anything we did here on campus, but here are some relevant links on the thorny issues of disposal of toxic wastes from wind and solar, which are anything but cheap or free and certainly far, far from being environmentally freindly or responsible:

Wind Turbine Blades CAN'T Be Recycled, So They’re Piling Up In Landfills
Tune in as Casper City Council discuss wind turbines, snow plowing and more
Toxic Time Bomb of Waste from Solar Panels in Landfills
Tossing Old Solar Panels Into Landfill Is Greener Than Recycling Them
Windfarms kill 10-20 times more than previously thought

FYI, in the time since the 2010 BP oil spill in the Gulf, some 2.9 million birds have been killed by wind turbines, compared to only 800,000 that have been killed by the oil spill...It should also be noted that wind turbines routinely kill lots of federally protected birds especially the rarer large birds the ecology needs for balance in nature such as eagles, hawks, falcons, et cetera. (link)

I know how conscientious those at the University are about the environment, so I'd imagine that they'd plan for the large landfill somewhere on University grounds for all the toxic waste from the wind and solar energy on campus...I just didn't know where since so much of the campus has steam tunnels under it, but I figured you'd already had a location and disposal plan in mind.

Also, since the school's mascot is the Owl, many of which can be large predators, I don't know how comfortable we'd be repeatedly killing lots of similar birds just to get a few extra watts? Or maybe you were thinking of our mascot more like most of our football squads have played:


I was hoping to get back to this kind of OWL...


Considering the significant negative environmental and humane costs of wind and solar, I'd opt not to use them at all, but then, I like animals and not everyone does...Considering the scientific knowlegde available on campus, I'd vote for Nuclear power as the most practical and cleanest, and perhaps we could even sell a few extra watts...

If only there were a university locally with a focus on positive impact from product design...

https://news.rice.edu/news/2021/students...ill-blades

(02-13-2023 03:53 PM)markbrindley Wrote:  

(02-13-2023 03:42 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  

(02-13-2023 02:04 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(02-13-2023 12:54 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  While I agree it seems ridiculously embarrassing that a university formerly known for its engineering program can't seem to run enough power to modernize its football stadium, and forgive me if maybe I missed that part of your proposal, but I was curious as to where you'd propose to put the landfill, Ham?

What Landfill? As others have alluded to, I'm suggesting kinetic energy storage which is a simple weight that is lifted when power is present (could be from wind or solar or grid) and then drops and turns a turbine/generator when it is needed.

Mostly though, I don't pretend to have 'the answer'. The entire point is to make the stadium a testing site for alternative energy storage... an academic pirsuit, particularly that which doesn't need rare earth metals... particularly if it can be created using 'whatever' resource is available where the power is needed. Nasa uses flyweel energy storage. I've seen a company that works in remote parts of Africa and uses 'dirt' because that is what is there... to power things like water pump wells and simple lights. Maybe it could be radio waves or gamma waves or who knows what. I just named some that come to my simple mind that every stadium in the world has... and we could put into action very quickly

To bury the wind blades after every 9 years as they cannot be recycled and have to be changed. And to bury the solar panels as they only last up to about 20-25 years and it is prohibitively expensive to try to extract the materials for recycling as well as very difficult, so most solar panels are buried, leaching into the soil. Plus the hundreds or possibly thousands of dead large bird carcasses over their lifespan so they don't stay in place after they strike the wind blades, fall down to the ground and rot in place, which smells and can transmit disease and takes a while--those need to be buried as well. Wind and solar create significant environmental hazards and need to be accounted for. I know you are a responsible person who would want to clean up after yourself; Shirley you weren't suggesting to dump our trash in someone else's yard?





I certainly wouldn't want all that toxic wind and solar waste to be from anything we did here on campus, but here are some relevant links on the thorny issues of disposal of toxic wastes from wind and solar, which are anything but cheap or free and certainly far, far from being environmentally freindly or responsible:

Wind Turbine Blades CAN'T Be Recycled, So They’re Piling Up In Landfills
Tune in as Casper City Council discuss wind turbines, snow plowing and more
Toxic Time Bomb of Waste from Solar Panels in Landfills
Tossing Old Solar Panels Into Landfill Is Greener Than Recycling Them
Windfarms kill 10-20 times more than previously thought

FYI, in the time since the 2010 BP oil spill in the Gulf, some 2.9 million birds have been killed by wind turbines, compared to only 800,000 that have been killed by the oil spill...It should also be noted that wind turbines routinely kill lots of federally protected birds especially the rarer large birds the ecology needs for balance in nature such as eagles, hawks, falcons, et cetera. (link)

I know how conscientious those at the University are about the environment, so I'd imagine that they'd plan for the large landfill somewhere on University grounds for all the toxic waste from the wind and solar energy on campus...I just didn't know where since so much of the campus has steam tunnels under it, but I figured you'd already had a location and disposal plan in mind.

Also, since the school's mascot is the Owl, many of which can be large predators, I don't know how comfortable we'd be repeatedly killing lots of similar birds just to get a few extra watts? Or maybe you were thinking of our mascot more like most of our football squads have played:


I was hoping to get back to this kind of OWL...


Considering the significant negative environmental and humane costs of wind and solar, I'd opt not to use them at all, but then, I like animals and not everyone does...Considering the scientific knowlegde available on campus, I'd vote for Nuclear power as the most practical and cleanest, and perhaps we could even sell a few extra watts...

If only there were a university locally with a focus on positive impact from product design...

https://news.rice.edu/news/2021/students...ill-blades

That's nice to know. Thanks for posting that. Wouldn't get rid of the waste, but might reduce how dirty it is a bit. Transport of new blades and turbines to the school would still be polluting, as with all blades, plus turbines need oil and changing oil filters regularly to run (What? You didn't know wind turbines used Oil? Silly rabbit.) The article you quoted discusses chopping the blades up afterwards to make it easier to transport, which is a good idea, but the waste is still there. Insulation, other uses are theorized but not yet known and cost/practicality would also need to be addressed, but good to at least try to do something about the significant man-made pollution and environmental problems from Wind energy. Wonder if they think they'll dig up all the ones already buried by others or just forget them? Another question for another time, perhaps. I'd guess they'd still need to bury the ground up waste in a University landfill somewhere on campus, but that's what I was asking Ham about.

So...that doesn't address the Solar Waste toxins and the millions of Bird Killings, what have you got for those, Mark?

Here's something I found on Solar Waste:

Solar Panel Waste: The Dark Side of Clean Energy

Quote:Tons of solar panels installed in the early 2000s are reaching the end of their lifecycles, posing a serious problem for the industry to contend with. Current solar panel disposal practices are far from being environmentally friendly.

Questions remain about whether their production and waste creates more pollutants than the fossil fuels they aim to replace.

Manufacturing solar panels often requires the use of several noxious chemicals. To add to that, solar panels have an operating lifespan of around 20 to 30 years. Since they were first introduced in the 2000s, literal tons of solar panels are reaching the end of their lifespan. Because it's not easy to properly dispose of the toxic metals inside the solar cells — and there's an overall lack of oversight — it is often cheaper to discard them in landfills or send them to developing countries. As solar panels sit in dumps, the toxic metals they contain can leech out into the environment and possibly pose a public health hazard if they get into the groundwater supply.

My point here, fellas, is not that we can't use some of these alternatives, but they also remind us that most "alternatives" are intermittent and thus unreliable, can't provide anywhere near the enormous power needs to replace even 6-7% of traditional fuels used, pose their own significant environmental problems and costs, and when compared to good, clean natural gas (which seems to be a recent no-no for some odd reason (cough, power-monging, cough, control)) or oil, in many cases are not worth the effort, cost or trouble. Again, I'd be very interested in Nuclear, though, and that would seem more apt to send a futuristic and powerful message of how to overcome the issues...It'd be cool to see a smaller new Nuclear plant on campus and quite a point of pride for our U and a selling point for our engineering program.