(04-18-2012 10:45 AM)I45owl Wrote:  

(04-17-2012 08:28 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(04-17-2012 08:16 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(04-17-2012 08:02 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(04-17-2012 07:37 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  Your notion that it's some rite of passage that toughens us might have flown in the 50s, but not anymore.

Quote:The suicide rate for Americans aged between 15 and 24 tripled between 1950 and 1994, from 4.5 to 13.7 per 100,000. Over the same period, the suicide rate for adults and the elderly actually went down. Since then, the youngsters' rate has drifted down to 11.1.

http://www.economist.com/node/898176

Damned 50's.

OK, just so we're clear, let me ask you: do you think bullying is a good thing that toughens our kids so that they are less likely to commit suicide?

(04-17-2012 06:57 PM)Paul M Wrote:  What was the suicide rate in past decades when we were more conservative and "hardened up" our kids vs today since feminism, I'm alright, your alright, trophies to losers, sensitivity training, gender neutrality, and all the other sissyfication the left embrace and screw up kids with?

Just asking why some here are blaming the gop and conservatives for teen suicide when, in the 50, we were more conservative and the rate was lower than today since we have gotten far more liberal and sissyfy kids.

I didn't get tot he point of answering your question before you did. But, your conclusion radically oversimplifies things. For one, politically, I don't think (up until 2008 at least) that we are more liberal now than America was in the 1930s or 1940s. But, the trend you cite begins in the 1950s, which is arguably a peak of conservatism for +/- 20+ years. Secondly, it neglects the change beginning in the 2000s. Socially, the trend is different, but it also doesn't explain the change that has occurred in the post-Clinton/Lewinski-blow-job era.

AFSP: Facts and Figures: National Statistics

http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?fuseaction...3A70DE1FDA Wrote:Between the mid-1950s and the late 1970s, the suicide rate among U.S. males aged 15-24 more than tripled (from 6.3 per 100,000 in 1955 to 21.3 in 1977). Among females aged 15-24, the rate more than doubled during this period (from 2.0 to 5.2). The youth suicide rate generally leveled off during the 1980s and early 1990s, and since the mid-1990s has been steadily decreasing.

Look at the time stamps. People kept blaming the gop and conservatives for teen suicide so I asked the question at the bottom at 6:57pm. It went ignored. Conservative blame continued so I did a search. Came across your afsp link but it only said the rate had declined in recent years so I kept looking till I found the Economist link.

(04-18-2012 11:37 AM)Paul M Wrote:  Look at the time stamps. People kept blaming the gop and conservatives for teen suicide so I asked the question at the bottom at 6:57pm. It went ignored. Conservative blame continued so I did a search. Came across your afsp link but it only said the rate had declined in recent years so I kept looking till I found the Economist link.

I think the blame is pretty specifically targeted towards suicide among gay teens (at least if you disregard some of the childish banter throughout this thread).

I didn't read the 2001 Economist article until now (since it was basically the same stats, just not up to date). The following was interesting ... arguably, the Press can be tied more directly to the epidemic than Bachmann can (and I'll just assume that Oprah was probably part of the problem and will add this to her long list of crimes against humanity).

Teenage suicide: Such a waste | The Economist

http://www.economist.com/node/898176 Wrote:There is also, alas, a copycat factor. When suicides are reported in the press, the local suicide rate increases in proportion to the prominence of the coverage. There is, oddly, no similar effect among adults and the elderly. This is hardly new. Goethe's novel of love lost, “The Sorrows of Young Werther” (1774), was banned in parts of Europe because of a suspicion that it would encourage suicides. The American Foundation for Suicide Prevention now has guidelines warning the media not to glorify the victim, give details of the method of suicide, or make the death seem unavoidable.

(04-17-2012 11:30 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  I'm really curious of how those that take the more liberal position of "Conservatives are just a bunch of hateful thugs" were told to handle bullying.

I never had to worry about it...folks just got along at my school.

(04-18-2012 12:12 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  

(04-17-2012 11:30 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  I'm really curious of how those that take the more liberal position of "Conservatives are just a bunch of hateful thugs" were told to handle bullying.

I never had to worry about it...folks just got along at my school.

Ahh so you went to the one school in the world where harmony has been achieved. Congrats!

(04-18-2012 12:51 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(04-18-2012 12:12 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  

(04-17-2012 11:30 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  I'm really curious of how those that take the more liberal position of "Conservatives are just a bunch of hateful thugs" were told to handle bullying.

I never had to worry about it...folks just got along at my school.

Ahh so you went to the one school in the world where harmony has been achieved. Congrats!

i guess...

(04-18-2012 01:17 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  

(04-18-2012 12:51 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(04-18-2012 12:12 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  

(04-17-2012 11:30 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  I'm really curious of how those that take the more liberal position of "Conservatives are just a bunch of hateful thugs" were told to handle bullying.

I never had to worry about it...folks just got along at my school.

Ahh so you went to the one school in the world where harmony has been achieved. Congrats!

i guess...

So you don't have any real insight on how to solve the problem.

what does your question have to do with "the one school in the world where harmony has been achieved."?

i don't see the link between your 2 questions...

It's just a statement.

(04-18-2012 06:59 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(04-17-2012 05:26 PM)mtsufan561 Wrote:  

(04-17-2012 04:56 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(04-17-2012 04:37 PM)mtsufan561 Wrote:  There's always bullying. I was bullied myself, I know plenty of others who were as well. Every kind of bullying is different, whether it's because you're fat, gay, Muslim, or something else. Each kind has its own implications and its own impact on the victim's psychology. But it's obvious that the rate of bullying is much higher for gay teens. Bullying does cause suicides, regardless of what it's about.

What has been true is that Republicans and evangelicals for the most part aren't doing what they need to to combat this bullying of gay teens (and bullying in general). Michelle Bachmann's district is a good example. Their anti-gay policies have made for a much higher suicide rate and they seem to be in the midst of battles every day.

BS. You have no proof of this. Just more prejudice.

You sir, respectfully, are an idiot. Proof? I Googled it. This is what I found. http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/07/...en-suicide

So let's see here.
1. You provided no proof prior to my bringing it up.
2. You cite an openly biased source that is explicit with its agenda.
3. To quote your own source, " Some of the victims were gay, or perceived to be by their classmates, and many were reportedly bullied." and "critics blame the congresswoman's anti-gay allies for contributing to a mental health crisis."

So, we have suicides, some by gays, some not. Some of them were bullied (w/ no indications that the gay ones were actually the victims) some weren't. And critics are blaming Bachmann with no evidence, just like you.

I'm really trying to see how you could have possibly failed more than you actually did.

No evidence that bullying occurred? People don't just kill themselves for no reason.

Quote:

Quote:Didn't take a genius.

That's for sure.

Quote:And it's not bulls**t thank you very much.

Apparently it was.

Last time I checked 9 kids died that month. That hasn't changed.

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:Tell that to UM, he's the one who slighted those being bullied.

By posting the article and captioning "why do we hate people for being themselves"? Seems like an anti-bullying comment to me.

He's the one dismissing bullying among non-gays.

What does that have to do with my points? Bullying regardless of who it's towards is wrong and should be prevented.

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:Living in a society where homophobia is rampant,

More like "lying" is rampant.

Comedian? Because if that post wasn't meant to be funny then it was incredibly stupid.

Stupid b/c you say so? Pfft. Get over yourself. Homophobia is just another pretend term invented for the culture war. Anyone who accepts that nonsense is just as gullible as those who believe in UFOs or images of Allah on a piece of toast.

You are seriously calling homophobia nonsense, a pretend term? Hahaha. I can't believe there's someone stupid enough to think that. Just the other day one of my conservative friends and I were talking and this topic (homosexuality, bullying, etc.) came up and he flat out told me he's homophobic. You seem like you might be if you deny it's even real. lol

Quote:

Quote:

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Quote: civil rights aren't granted,

Really? How so? Try to be rational this time.

Where wasn't I rational, exactly? Let's see... only 14 states offer marriage or civil unions to same-sex couples. Only 21 states have banned discrimination in the workplace because of sexual orientation. 20 allow same-sex couples to adopt children. Need I go on?

It has been demonstrated deductively that there is no difference in the rights of these individuals. Deductive proof, do you know what that means?

So yeah, I keep asking for rational thought, and all I see is emotional rhetoric by superstitious people. If you don't want to accept 2+2=4, feel free, but don't expect the rest of us to go along.

You don't want to accept that 14 < 50, etc. etc. then go ahead. I suppose what they say is true, "Ignorance is bliss."

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:Then explain why suicide rates are high where there is abundant support.

Just because there's support doesn't mean there's not bullying.

It does in the context I specified. Are you as illiterate as wvucrazy?

Explain your line of thinking. How does this make sense: "Support is needed and in place, even though there's not any bullying." Why is there support if there isn't bullying?

Quote:

Quote:And also: "They'll be doing genocide in less than 20 years." What? Where did that come from? lol, you're either trolling for laughs or that was really dumb.

It's called history. And no, I don't expect someone who can't read and can't think critically to have any shred of knowledge about history.

So, the Democrats of the United States will be conducting genocide in less than 20 years. Back to my previous saying: it applies here as well. "Ignorance is bliss." You seem perfectly fine by calling me illiterate and stupid. Well, that's nice. Lucky I feel the way I do about what you say when you argue with me: most of it is either A) idiotic trolling or B) ignorance. There are some good thoughts in there, occasionally, but most of the time I feel like it's just an attack or a tangent.

(04-18-2012 04:25 PM)mtsufan561 Wrote:  Last time I checked 9 kids died that month. That hasn't changed.

Again, the article indicated 9 suicides in a two year period, 4 of which are related to homosexuality. The article only makes the case for one instance of bullying, leaving open whether or not it was involved in the other instances.

(04-18-2012 04:25 PM)mtsufan561 Wrote:  You are seriously calling homophobia nonsense, a pretend term?

Yes it is nonsense, and a made up term..

Phobia means fear, it does not mean dislike. People who dislike the color blue are not blueaphobes... They just don't like it..

George Weinberg made it up in the in the 1960s to try and demonize anyone who haled a particular view as being broken. It was not used to describe an actual psychological condition but an opposition to his campaign to strike homosexuality as a malady in the textbooks of his day.

It was classic propaganda and his multiple degrees do not change that.

Quote:I can't believe there's someone stupid enough to think that.

Yea we took a word whos use is *always* tied to a fear and used it to describe a dislike... Nothing weird about that.

Quote:Just the other day one of my conservative friends and I were talking and this topic (homosexuality, bullying, etc.) came up and he flat out told me he's homophobic.

I dare say your friend is either really afraid or a moron..

(04-18-2012 04:25 PM)mtsufan561 Wrote:  No evidence that bullying occurred? People don't just kill themselves for no reason.

You've tried to move the goalposts here. You're trying to define a suicide as someone who's been bullied. You just want to assume something is true, and then offer that as proof.

That's weak logic, and not supported by empirical evidence, which makes it weaker still. Do you really ask why I claim people are uneducated these days?

Quote:Last time I checked 9 kids died that month. That hasn't changed.

Apparently even that detail did change.

Quote:What does that have to do with my points? Bullying regardless of who it's towards is wrong and should be prevented.

We weren't talking about you.

Quote:You are seriously calling homophobia nonsense, a pretend term? Hahaha. I can't believe there's someone stupid enough to think that.

BIE obviously handled this. You think that just b/c some professor said so that it's true? Really, try thinking for yourself...you might find you like it.

Quote:Explain your line of thinking.

I did. There is no point in re-writing it. You probably skipped over it in your zeal to show you edumacated you are.

Quote:

Quote:And also: "They'll be doing genocide in less than 20 years." What? Where did that come from? lol, you're either trolling for laughs or that was really dumb.

It's called history. And no, I don't expect someone who can't read and can't think critically to have any shred of knowledge about history.

So, the Democrats of the United States will be conducting genocide in less than 20 years. Back to my previous saying: it applies here as well. "Ignorance is bliss." You seem perfectly fine by calling me illiterate and stupid. Well, that's nice. Lucky I feel the way I do about what you say when you argue with me: most of it is either A) idiotic trolling or B) ignorance. There are some good thoughts in there, occasionally, but most of the time I feel like it's just an attack or a tangent.
[/quote]

Lucky? Why? Because you're an internet tough guy?

I am perfectly fine calling you illiterate and stupid b/c you exhibit those characteristics, and I point them out specifically.

Can we all stop pretending that we care? Boo hoo some kid felt sorry for himself and killed himself. Kids get picked on...just ask the kids I picked on...LOL. They're all still here...I think. Grow up people. No one in here knows this kid or his family so stop pretending to be outraged. Now I'm going to the mall so I can make fun of the poors.

A young man who isn't liberal has no heart and an old man who isn't conservative has no brain.

(04-18-2012 07:10 PM)ImMoreAwesomeThanYou Wrote:  Can we all stop pretending that we care? Boo hoo some kid felt sorry for himself and killed himself. Kids get picked on...just ask the kids I picked on...LOL. They're all still here...I think. Grow up people. No one in here knows this kid or his family so stop pretending to be outraged. Now I'm going to the mall so I can make fun of the poors.

A young man who isn't liberal has no heart and an old man who isn't conservative has no brain.

Hyperbolic much?

I think we all can agree that if a kid commits suicide because of bullying, that there is a problem. Is it a lack of communication in the family? Is it a troubled kid? Is it unbearable humiliation by the aggressors? Whatever it is...it is a tragedy and I can say sincerely that my heart goes out to his family left behind..and..I do care.

(04-18-2012 07:39 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  I think we all can agree that if a kid commits suicide because of bullying, that there is a problem. Is it a lack of communication in the family? Is it a troubled kid? Is it unbearable humiliation by the aggressors? Whatever it is...it is a tragedy and I can say sincerely that my heart goes out to his family left behind..and..I do care.

Fo, you have a daughter, if she was suicidal, would you be able to tell something was wrong even if she didn't say anything?

(04-18-2012 06:20 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(04-18-2012 04:25 PM)mtsufan561 Wrote:  No evidence that bullying occurred? People don't just kill themselves for no reason.

You've tried to move the goalposts here. You're trying to define a suicide as someone who's been bullied. You just want to assume something is true, and then offer that as proof.

Believe what you'd like, but I've read these kids' histories. They WERE bullied for being gay. The school district did nothing, the parents tried to help their kids, but suicides happened. No debating that, right?

Quote:That's weak logic, and not supported by empirical evidence, which makes it weaker still. Do you really ask why I claim people are uneducated these days?

You're so big on empirical evidence and logic; use your logical skills to figure out why I ask you call people stupid.

Quote:

Quote:What does that have to do with my points? Bullying regardless of who it's towards is wrong and should be prevented.

We weren't talking about you.

Okay. Moving the goalposts, are we? haha.

Quote:

Quote:You are seriously calling homophobia nonsense, a pretend term? Hahaha. I can't believe there's someone stupid enough to think that.

BIE obviously handled this. You think that just b/c some professor said so that it's true? Really, try thinking for yourself...you might find you like it.

You may want to educate yourself on today's issues, because you're not living in the present. Tell me homophobia is not real, and I'll tell you that you're wrong. It's a fact that it is; I know that myself, because I've seen it before. And FYI, I think for myself always.

Quote:

Quote:Explain your line of thinking.

I did. There is no point in re-writing it. You probably skipped over it in your zeal to show you edumacated you are.

Excuse me for being too stupid for your time. Kids need/have support but support doesn't mean, "OH THE PROBLEM WENT AWAY! NO MORE BULLYING. LET'S IGNORE THEM NOW," does it? Bullying causes suicides. People bully gay people often, and sometimes it goes so far as to cause suicides. This is a problem. Does that not make sense to you? Do you not understand that it is wrong? Do you not realize that this needs to be stopped?

Quote:

Quote:So, the Democrats of the United States will be conducting genocide in less than 20 years. Back to my previous saying: it applies here as well. "Ignorance is bliss." You seem perfectly fine by calling me illiterate and stupid. Well, that's nice. Lucky I feel the way I do about what you say when you argue with me: most of it is either A) idiotic trolling or B) ignorance. There are some good thoughts in there, occasionally, but most of the time I feel like it's just an attack or a tangent.

Lucky? Why? Because you're an internet tough guy?

I am perfectly fine calling you illiterate and stupid b/c you exhibit those characteristics, and I point them out specifically.

Internet tough guy? Ha, no. I feel lucky being in a good mood today. Otherwise, my comments towards you would not be as pleasant as they've been. Not that they've been too pleasant. Nor will they be, if you call me illiterate and stupid. You've got your own opinions; we're all entitled to 'em. Call me whatever names you'd like, I don't really give a damn.

(04-18-2012 08:10 PM)mtsufan561 Wrote:  You may want to educate yourself on today's issues, because you're not living in the present. Tell me homophobia is not real, and I'll tell you that you're wrong. It's a fact that it is; I know that myself, because I've seen it before. And FYI, I think for myself always.

Youre sort of right. I'm sure there are people who"fear" homosexuals but the political left has sucked any scientific validity which may have existed from the term.

It was always intended to be a club to beat down opposition, not to diagnose or treat anything.

After three decades of abuse the term has one meaning... You don't approve of the behavior, that is not a phobia.

(04-18-2012 07:10 PM)ImMoreAwesomeThanYou Wrote:  Can we all stop pretending that we care? Boo hoo some kid felt sorry for himself and killed himself. Kids get picked on...just ask the kids I picked on...LOL. They're all still here...I think. Grow up people. No one in here knows this kid or his family so stop pretending to be outraged. Now I'm going to the mall so I can make fun of the poors.

A young man who isn't liberal has no heart and an old man who isn't conservative has no brain.

yet another example...conservatives are HAPPY when people die...again, we all knew this...they're evil people...bunch of potential Hitlers...he was just "thinning the herd" too.

(04-18-2012 09:06 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(04-18-2012 08:10 PM)mtsufan561 Wrote:  You may want to educate yourself on today's issues, because you're not living in the present. Tell me homophobia is not real, and I'll tell you that you're wrong. It's a fact that it is; I know that myself, because I've seen it before. And FYI, I think for myself always.

Youre sort of right. I'm sure there are people who"fear" homosexuals but the political left has sucked any scientific validity which may have existed from the term.

It was always intended to be a club to beat down opposition, not to diagnose or treat anything.

After three decades of abuse the term has one meaning... You don't approve of the behavior, that is not a phobia.

There are who do fear homosexuality, though. A recent study was just published that showed a high correlation between homophobia and repressed homosexual tendencies. There is a fear there. There is also fear because of myths and BS spread by the anti-gay groups that gays are more likely to molest your kids, and that they want to recruit and try to indoctrinate kindergarten kids. Gays spread drugs and disease and will ruin marriage. Gays caused 9/11. That school of thought is out there - it's fear of their kids being gay, fear that treating gays as normal might make it more likely your kids will feel free to be who he really is (even if that is gay). There is plenty of fear involved w/ these people. It's not just "well, i disagree with the lifestyle". For a lot of people, fear drives that disagreement.

(04-18-2012 09:10 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  

(04-18-2012 07:10 PM)ImMoreAwesomeThanYou Wrote:  Can we all stop pretending that we care? Boo hoo some kid felt sorry for himself and killed himself. Kids get picked on...just ask the kids I picked on...LOL. They're all still here...I think. Grow up people. No one in here knows this kid or his family so stop pretending to be outraged. Now I'm going to the mall so I can make fun of the poors.

A young man who isn't liberal has no heart and an old man who isn't conservative has no brain.

yet another example...conservatives are HAPPY when people die...again, we all knew this...they're evil people...bunch of potential Hitlers...he was just "thinning the herd" too.

I like to think that some of these statements are meant for shock value because nobody can be that completely moronic, and yet... i dunno. i am constantly reassessing the capacity for idiocy that some of these folks truly have, it's astounding