(04-17-2012 10:03 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  Nomad, you're making a lot of good points in this thread.

I've been drinkin.

(04-17-2012 09:58 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  About the bullying being because the boy was gay. It probably isn't because of rhetoric. Boys will pick on boys who don't act like boys. It's almost evolutionary. Is it right? No it's completely wrong and in a perfect world it would be stopped. But, even with every parent in the world saying that their child shouldn't pick on someone because they are different, there are still going to be kids that notice perceived short-comings and exploit them.

The only way to institutionally stop bullying is to completely neuter interactions with people from the earliest of ages. Sports, tests, socializing, etc all create situations where someone could be considered different and could/will lead to bullying so you can't do any of those in school or anywhere in life. (Note sports because terms like you throw, run, bat, etc like a girl is meant to distinguish between "real" boys and the not so.) Would you rather do that or teach your kids how to successfully rise above their problems while teaching them a life skill?

I really don't think anybody expects bullying to be eliminated. It's about helping where possible.

(04-17-2012 10:05 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(04-17-2012 09:58 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  About the bullying being because the boy was gay. It probably isn't because of rhetoric. Boys will pick on boys who don't act like boys. It's almost evolutionary. Is it right? No it's completely wrong and in a perfect world it would be stopped. But, even with every parent in the world saying that their child shouldn't pick on someone because they are different, there are still going to be kids that notice perceived short-comings and exploit them.

The only way to institutionally stop bullying is to completely neuter interactions with people from the earliest of ages. Sports, tests, socializing, etc all create situations where someone could be considered different and could/will lead to bullying so you can't do any of those in school or anywhere in life. (Note sports because terms like you throw, run, bat, etc like a girl is meant to distinguish between "real" boys and the not so.) Would you rather do that or teach your kids how to successfully rise above their problems while teaching them a life skill?

I really don't think anybody expects bullying to be eliminated. It's about helping where possible.

If it can't be eliminated then shouldn't people learn how to deal with it? It looks like a lot of folks in this thread did and in a few cases made them stronger. I will stipulate that some bullies go too far and should be delt with, otherwise it's how a lot of people sort out their pecking order.

(04-17-2012 09:02 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(04-17-2012 02:14 PM)Max Power Wrote:  I'm angry at adults who encourage certain types of bullying.

Yes...Regardless of the reason...it is not acceptable behavior.

I wonder what type of family life some of the victims have? Can't the kids confide in their parents for help? My daughter told me of an instance in her school of a group of kids picking on one of her friends. I went to the principal and informed him of it. He brought all the parents in and put a stop to it.

Getting your kids to be open with you and tell you "anything" is hard and can be very uncomfortable...but...it could save a life.

The technology age has taken "bulling" and "hazing" to another level. I am glad my daughter is not in school anymore and I don't have to deal with this new age of communication. It is getting crazy.

This has to be said..

My kids school had a great anti bullying program. One which encouraged kids to isolate the bully by standing up for the person being bullied... regardless of the reason!

1:1 Bullies then to wimp out, when out numbered they almost always do. They tried to replace this program with one that focuses on gay students, thankfully the parents stood up and the program which does not give a fat rats behind *why* something bad is happening prevailed.

You don't really need new laws for this but existing laws for harassment and other such areas need to be retooled to include cyber bullying. This crap should have been put to a stop by the bullies parents and if not them than the police. If the police don't have the power than give it to them..

(04-17-2012 10:05 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(04-17-2012 10:03 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  Nomad, you're making a lot of good points in this thread.

I've been drinkin.

Just opened my first one and it's not one of those wine coolers and there are no umbrellas in it.

(04-17-2012 09:43 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(04-17-2012 09:26 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(04-17-2012 09:02 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  Can't the kids confide in their parents for help?

Sometimes not. They are embarrassed, or afraid of making the situation worse. And certain afraid of their parents suspecting they might be gay. They don't want their parents to have pity on them. A whole host of reasons.

And constant anti-gay rhetoric does not make it easier for kids who are gay to confide in their parents because they have no idea how their parents might react. Some parents react very very poorly.

No doubt the whole dynamic is sketchy at best. As parents...we just have to start very early and earn their trust. NEVER lie to them when they ask about YOUR feelings....and NEVER punish them for being honest with you. Let them pick the punishment. I always found that worked very well with my kid.

That's what I reinforce... Discipline for doing something wrong is never really that bad... Discipline for hiding or lying about it is usually pretty strict.

Kids are going to sin, hell we all do... Best for them to learn that after the deed confession is best..

(04-17-2012 09:46 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(04-17-2012 09:31 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  Bullying should never be condoned but you can't expect it to just go away either. It is a matter of the school's failure to notice, the kid's parents failure to address it, the bullies and their parents, and the kid.

I was bullied on when I was in grade 7. One of the guys tightened a scarf around my neck. The teacher saw it, informed my dad, the vice-principal (MY MOM), his parents, and the school police officer (real Quebec City police). I freakin cried my eyes out over it and my dad told me that I could take it 2 ways: 1) Feel sorry for myself and lose a ton of self-esteem or 2) get tough right now. I chose 2 and he put me in wrestling practice the next week.

That was the best thing that's ever happened to me because, even though I often got my arse kicked, I was mentally tough. There's no better way to ward off bullies than to be so confident in yourself that they can't get to you.

The guys who mentioned that kids need to toughen up are right. It doesn't mean that they have to become that aggressive themselves; it's a mental thing. Let's face it no matter how much you're bullied as a child, it's going to be pretty sterile compared to adult life. The quicker you prepare mentally the less time bullies will have business with you.

Yes...good observations. I have to say that my dad gave me the BAD advice. He told me to pick out the big guy in the group and bust him in the nose. I did it and got suspended from school.

Your dad and my mom were from the same school of thought..

I was a very late bloomer (shortest kid in the 4th 5th and 6th grade, near the tallest by eighth. But those years were hard! I was always picked on and followed the school rules of telling a teacher..

This of course made it worse. One day my mother just said "the next time they pick on you and shove you pop them in the nose"..

I did, I got beat down by a kid two years older and a foot taller but the bullying stopped after that. When she was called into the principles office they told her what I did..

She informed them o" her joy, and the fact she told me to do it. When she was told the school policy she asked "hows that working out for him"...

(04-17-2012 09:46 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(04-17-2012 09:31 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  Bullying should never be condoned but you can't expect it to just go away either. It is a matter of the school's failure to notice, the kid's parents failure to address it, the bullies and their parents, and the kid.

I was bullied on when I was in grade 7. One of the guys tightened a scarf around my neck. The teacher saw it, informed my dad, the vice-principal (MY MOM), his parents, and the school police officer (real Quebec City police). I freakin cried my eyes out over it and my dad told me that I could take it 2 ways: 1) Feel sorry for myself and lose a ton of self-esteem or 2) get tough right now. I chose 2 and he put me in wrestling practice the next week.

That was the best thing that's ever happened to me because, even though I often got my arse kicked, I was mentally tough. There's no better way to ward off bullies than to be so confident in yourself that they can't get to you.

The guys who mentioned that kids need to toughen up are right. It doesn't mean that they have to become that aggressive themselves; it's a mental thing. Let's face it no matter how much you're bullied as a child, it's going to be pretty sterile compared to adult life. The quicker you prepare mentally the less time bullies will have business with you.

Yes...good observations. I have to say that my dad gave me the BAD advice. He told me to pick out the big guy in the group and bust him in the nose. I did it and got suspended from school.

I thought my dad was giving me basically the same advice and training with the wrestling. It didn't take long to realize that there's nothing in wrestling that you could use in a real fight. The beneficial thing with that was that there were guys that bullied me on the team with me. There's just something about being in a 90 degree room with no ventilation and getting the sh!t worked out of you with your worse enemy that makes best friends.

I was still the 5'0'' and 100 pound kid that they loved to pick on but that daily black eye, swollen lip, sprained ankle, etc made me feel like GI Joe.

(04-17-2012 10:19 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(04-17-2012 09:46 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(04-17-2012 09:31 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  Bullying should never be condoned but you can't expect it to just go away either. It is a matter of the school's failure to notice, the kid's parents failure to address it, the bullies and their parents, and the kid.

I was bullied on when I was in grade 7. One of the guys tightened a scarf around my neck. The teacher saw it, informed my dad, the vice-principal (MY MOM), his parents, and the school police officer (real Quebec City police). I freakin cried my eyes out over it and my dad told me that I could take it 2 ways: 1) Feel sorry for myself and lose a ton of self-esteem or 2) get tough right now. I chose 2 and he put me in wrestling practice the next week.

That was the best thing that's ever happened to me because, even though I often got my arse kicked, I was mentally tough. There's no better way to ward off bullies than to be so confident in yourself that they can't get to you.

The guys who mentioned that kids need to toughen up are right. It doesn't mean that they have to become that aggressive themselves; it's a mental thing. Let's face it no matter how much you're bullied as a child, it's going to be pretty sterile compared to adult life. The quicker you prepare mentally the less time bullies will have business with you.

Yes...good observations. I have to say that my dad gave me the BAD advice. He told me to pick out the big guy in the group and bust him in the nose. I did it and got suspended from school.

Your dad and my mom were from the same school of thought..

I was a very late bloomer (shortest kid in the 4th 5th and 6th grade, near the tallest by eighth. But those years were hard! I was always picked on and followed the school rules of telling a teacher..

This of course made it worse. One day my mother just said "the next time they pick on you and shove you pop them in the nose"..

I did, I got beat down by a kid two years older and a foot taller but the bullying stopped after that. When she was called into the principles office they told her what I did..

She informed them o" her joy, and the fact she told me to do it. When she was told the school policy she asked "hows that working out for him"...

My dad gave me the same advice Fo's dad did but I never really had to follow it. He also told me to stand my ground because the lack of respect I'd get from running will last longer than my bumps and bruises.

And another thing, if you can deal with being the runt of a group and survive then a lot of things you'll deal with later become a little easier.

(04-17-2012 10:05 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(04-17-2012 09:58 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  About the bullying being because the boy was gay. It probably isn't because of rhetoric. Boys will pick on boys who don't act like boys. It's almost evolutionary. Is it right? No it's completely wrong and in a perfect world it would be stopped. But, even with every parent in the world saying that their child shouldn't pick on someone because they are different, there are still going to be kids that notice perceived short-comings and exploit them.

The only way to institutionally stop bullying is to completely neuter interactions with people from the earliest of ages. Sports, tests, socializing, etc all create situations where someone could be considered different and could/will lead to bullying so you can't do any of those in school or anywhere in life. (Note sports because terms like you throw, run, bat, etc like a girl is meant to distinguish between "real" boys and the not so.) Would you rather do that or teach your kids how to successfully rise above their problems while teaching them a life skill?

I really don't think anybody expects bullying to be eliminated. It's about helping where possible.

IMO helping where possible is very much dependent on finding the root of the problem. If you're saying that rhetoric from the right causes the problem, I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

I'm really curious of how those that take the more liberal position of "Conservatives are just a bunch of hateful thugs" were told to handle bullying.

(04-17-2012 05:26 PM)mtsufan561 Wrote:  

(04-17-2012 04:56 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(04-17-2012 04:37 PM)mtsufan561 Wrote:  There's always bullying. I was bullied myself, I know plenty of others who were as well. Every kind of bullying is different, whether it's because you're fat, gay, Muslim, or something else. Each kind has its own implications and its own impact on the victim's psychology. But it's obvious that the rate of bullying is much higher for gay teens. Bullying does cause suicides, regardless of what it's about.

What has been true is that Republicans and evangelicals for the most part aren't doing what they need to to combat this bullying of gay teens (and bullying in general). Michelle Bachmann's district is a good example. Their anti-gay policies have made for a much higher suicide rate and they seem to be in the midst of battles every day.

BS. You have no proof of this. Just more prejudice.

You sir, respectfully, are an idiot. Proof? I Googled it. This is what I found. http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/07/...en-suicide

So let's see here.
1. You provided no proof prior to my bringing it up.
2. You cite an openly biased source that is explicit with its agenda.
3. To quote your own source, " Some of the victims were gay, or perceived to be by their classmates, and many were reportedly bullied." and "critics blame the congresswoman's anti-gay allies for contributing to a mental health crisis."

So, we have suicides, some by gays, some not. Some of them were bullied (w/ no indications that the gay ones were actually the victims) some weren't. And critics are blaming Bachmann with no evidence, just like you.

I'm really trying to see how you could have possibly failed more than you actually did.

Quote:Didn't take a genius.

That's for sure.

Quote:And it's not bulls**t thank you very much.

Apparently it was.

Quote:

Quote:Tell that to UM, he's the one who slighted those being bullied.

By posting the article and captioning "why do we hate people for being themselves"? Seems like an anti-bullying comment to me.

He's the one dismissing bullying among non-gays.

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:Living in a society where homophobia is rampant,

More like "lying" is rampant.

Comedian? Because if that post wasn't meant to be funny then it was incredibly stupid.

Stupid b/c you say so? Pfft. Get over yourself. Homophobia is just another pretend term invented for the culture war. Anyone who accepts that nonsense is just as gullible as those who believe in UFOs or images of Allah on a piece of toast.

Quote:

Quote:

Quote: civil rights aren't granted,

Really? How so? Try to be rational this time.

Where wasn't I rational, exactly? Let's see... only 14 states offer marriage or civil unions to same-sex couples. Only 21 states have banned discrimination in the workplace because of sexual orientation. 20 allow same-sex couples to adopt children. Need I go on?

It has been demonstrated deductively that there is no difference in the rights of these individuals. Deductive proof, do you know what that means?

So yeah, I keep asking for rational thought, and all I see is emotional rhetoric by superstitious people. If you don't want to accept 2+2=4, feel free, but don't expect the rest of us to go along.

Quote:

Quote:Then explain why suicide rates are high where there is abundant support.

Just because there's support doesn't mean there's not bullying.

It does in the context I specified. Are you as illiterate as wvucrazy?

Quote:And also: "They'll be doing genocide in less than 20 years." What? Where did that come from? lol, you're either trolling for laughs or that was really dumb.

It's called history. And no, I don't expect someone who can't read and can't think critically to have any shred of knowledge about history.

(04-17-2012 11:22 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  IMO helping where possible is very much dependent on finding the root of the problem. If you're saying that rhetoric from the right causes the problem, I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

I've never said it was solely responsible for the problem, or even primarily responsible. I think the anti-gay rhetoric contributes to the problem, and conservatives sometime stand in the way of potential ways to help the problem.

[quote='UofMemphis' pid='7795105' dateline='1334687143']

Who cares? Lots of people are bullied.

(04-17-2012 11:30 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  I'm really curious of how those that take the more liberal position of "Conservatives are just a bunch of hateful thugs" were told to handle bullying.

I never really asked how to deal with it. When bullied, I would try to find the one thing that person was most sensitive about and turn it back on them. Bullies are insecure so it's not hard to do.

The most effective time was when some kid started making fun of my clothes. My family didn't have much money and so everything I had was from garage sales. I was literally wearing the hand me downs of my classmates. When he provoked me, I asked if his father was drinking again and why their BMW was suddenly replaced with a used Honda. That did the trick. I guess being poor was what that kid feared most, which is why he picked on me. It was easy to exploit.

Libtard bullying.

Quote:District Court: Homosexual “Diversity” Trumps First Amendment Rights

A district court in Ohio has ruled that a university’s quest for “diversity” outweighs a citizen’s Constitutional right to free speech. Crystal Dixon is appealing the decision to the 6th US Circuit Court of Appeals.

Dixon, an administrator with the University of Toledo in Ohio, wrote a letter to the editor of a local paper, in which she expressed her privately held opinion, as a Christian woman who happens to be black, that homosexual activists have no right to claim they are civil rights victims. She signed her letter with her name only, with no pretense of representing her employer.

She was fired. Imagine that.

In the initial trial of the lawsuit she then brought for wrongful dismissal, the district court blamed her for probably making some people feel uncomfortable. This is America in 2012, after all, where killing babies is hip and acceptable, but heaven help you if you make an adult feel uncomfortable.

Another signpost on Hayek’s “road to serfdom.”

(04-18-2012 08:04 AM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  

(04-17-2012 11:30 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  I'm really curious of how those that take the more liberal position of "Conservatives are just a bunch of hateful thugs" were told to handle bullying.

I never really asked how to deal with it. When bullied, I would try to find the one thing that person was most sensitive about and turn it back on them. Bullies are insecure so it's not hard to do.

The most effective time was when some kid started making fun of my clothes. My family didn't have much money and so everything I had was from garage sales. I was literally wearing the hand me downs of my classmates. When he provoked me, I asked if his father was drinking again and why their BMW was suddenly replaced with a used Honda. That did the trick. I guess being poor was what that kid feared most, which is why he picked on me. It was easy to exploit.

I suspect that's why so many leftists on this board try to be intellectual bullies. They fear having their ignorance exposed.

(04-18-2012 09:13 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(04-18-2012 08:04 AM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  

(04-17-2012 11:30 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  I'm really curious of how those that take the more liberal position of "Conservatives are just a bunch of hateful thugs" were told to handle bullying.

I never really asked how to deal with it. When bullied, I would try to find the one thing that person was most sensitive about and turn it back on them. Bullies are insecure so it's not hard to do.

The most effective time was when some kid started making fun of my clothes. My family didn't have much money and so everything I had was from garage sales. I was literally wearing the hand me downs of my classmates. When he provoked me, I asked if his father was drinking again and why their BMW was suddenly replaced with a used Honda. That did the trick. I guess being poor was what that kid feared most, which is why he picked on me. It was easy to exploit.

I suspect that's why so many leftists on this board try to be intellectual bullies. They fear having their ignorance exposed.

Maybe so. Any theories for what explains the bullying from the right?

(04-17-2012 08:28 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(04-17-2012 08:16 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(04-17-2012 08:02 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(04-17-2012 07:37 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  Your notion that it's some rite of passage that toughens us might have flown in the 50s, but not anymore.

Quote:The suicide rate for Americans aged between 15 and 24 tripled between 1950 and 1994, from 4.5 to 13.7 per 100,000. Over the same period, the suicide rate for adults and the elderly actually went down. Since then, the youngsters' rate has drifted down to 11.1.

http://www.economist.com/node/898176

Damned 50's.

OK, just so we're clear, let me ask you: do you think bullying is a good thing that toughens our kids so that they are less likely to commit suicide?

(04-17-2012 06:57 PM)Paul M Wrote:  What was the suicide rate in past decades when we were more conservative and "hardened up" our kids vs today since feminism, I'm alright, your alright, trophies to losers, sensitivity training, gender neutrality, and all the other sissyfication the left embrace and screw up kids with?

Just asking why some here are blaming the gop and conservatives for teen suicide when, in the 50, we were more conservative and the rate was lower than today since we have gotten far more liberal and sissyfy kids.

I didn't get tot he point of answering your question before you did. But, your conclusion radically oversimplifies things. For one, politically, I don't think (up until 2008 at least) that we are more liberal now than America was in the 1930s or 1940s. But, the trend you cite begins in the 1950s, which is arguably a peak of conservatism for +/- 20+ years. Secondly, it neglects the change beginning in the 2000s. Socially, the trend is different, but it also doesn't explain the change that has occurred in the post-Clinton/Lewinski-blow-job era.

AFSP: Facts and Figures: National Statistics

http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?fuseaction...3A70DE1FDA Wrote:Between the mid-1950s and the late 1970s, the suicide rate among U.S. males aged 15-24 more than tripled (from 6.3 per 100,000 in 1955 to 21.3 in 1977). Among females aged 15-24, the rate more than doubled during this period (from 2.0 to 5.2). The youth suicide rate generally leveled off during the 1980s and early 1990s, and since the mid-1990s has been steadily decreasing.

(04-17-2012 05:26 PM)mtsufan561 Wrote:  Proof? I Googled it. This is what I found. http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/07/...en-suicide

The Teen Suicide Epidemic in Michele Bachmann's District | Mother Jones

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/07/...en-suicide Wrote:The first was TJ. Then came Samantha, Aaron, Nick, and Kevin. Over the past two years, a total of nine teenagers have committed suicide in a Minnesota school district represented by Rep. Michele Bachmann—the latest in May—and many more students have attempted to take their lives. State public health officials have labeled the area a "suicide contagion area" because of the unusually high death rate.

Following the link...

General Information - Depression and Suicide Prevention Resources

http://www.anoka.k12.mn.us/education/com...lid=285526 Wrote:"Suicide contagion" designation inaccurate
Between November 2009 and October 2010, six Anoka-Hennepin students completed suicide. Before district staff fully understood the myths and facts about suicide, district communications referred to this as a "contagion." Based on subsequent information from state and national experts in mental health, we learned that this designation does not exist and should have been used to described the deaths in the district. We apologize for the error and for the spread of inaccurate information about suicides. For information on suicide statistics and (for media) how to report accurately about suicide, contact the Minnesota Department of Health.

Given that the article describes nine suicides over two years (four perceived to be lbgt teens), it's also a stretch to attribute these directly or indirectly to Bachmann or anyone else.