(04-29-2013 09:17 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(04-29-2013 08:34 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  That's the problem, no one will be talking about him as a ball player even if he was a MVP now.

Horse Manure... If Kobe came out tomorrow he would still be talked about as one of the greatest of all time. Jackie Robinson is not just "The first
Black player"... He was one of the best of his day! Any baseball man will tell you that.

Tiger woods is huge... And nowhere near the first Black professional golfer, but he is one of the best (black or white) of all time..

Quote:That's why what he did was so brave.

Brave would have done it before his career winding down. I don't think he is doing it for the publicity or anything but I really don't care one way or the other.

Quote:You see it as some benefit to him.

I never said that... I just said it will be his legacy..

In high school he broke the 31 year old rebounding record. In college, he was a third team All-American and a first team PAC-10 selection. In the pros, he has been a reserve, but he has been playing in the NBA for 14 years. He's not Wilt Chamberlain, but his career isn't chopped liver. I even remember him from his Stanford days.

First of all any professional NBA player put up similar HS and college numbers... In the NBA he's been pedestrian. *THATS NOTHING TO BE ASHAMED OF* the dumbest doctor in the world is still called Doctor.

Well the male athletes of a caliber of Martina Navratalova all decided to stay in the closet for the time being. So we're left with a good, but not all world player to rally around. We're glad for him.

Try being a Gay kid dealing with the ignorance (which is the nicest way I could put it) going on in those locker rooms. I've been there. Its not fun. This matters. Maybe not to you. But to people like me, it does.

The problem with the closet is that it allows the bigots to control all the talk. If no one stands up, nothing changes. The discussion is pointed at the Reggie Whites, the FCAs, the Tony Dungees, the DeVoses, etc., that spew hatred against Gay people. Until now, its been pretty much a one way discussion in male team sports. Its time for other voices to start showing up.

In a small, but quite significant way, the silence of Gay athletes playing in male team sports changed today. And that's a good thing.

Collins was the first to come out publically. But he won't be the last.

Feel free to compare him to the dumbest doctor if you wish.

(04-29-2013 11:03 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(04-29-2013 10:26 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(04-29-2013 09:55 PM)TedHead Wrote:  I am glad that most people are educated. I cannot fault the ignorant on this issue. They believe it is a choice because they choose to believe its a choice. Evolution is ridding society of this way of thinking, because education is bringing awareness. Gay Pride Parades serve the purpose to educate. More and more straight people are participating.
When you call it a deformity or a result of sexual abuse you are choosing dangerous words for young people out there who are struggling with these feelings. You are writing their suicide notes.
Everyone knows a gay person weather you know they are gay or not. Since Homo sapiens evolved, homosexuality has been around. Nature vs Nurture, I believe its a little bit of both.
In VA sodomy is still the law, Gays can be fired for being suspected of being gay, and we all know about the marriage thing. So Gays do not have the same rights. Gays pay taxes, however the they do not have the right to life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness as a hetero does. So the constitution should read all Heterosexual Men are Created Equal. Are we a Democracy or are we a Theocracy?

You're fine with me marrying my mother then?

I utterly fail to see how a theorhetical HETEROSEXUAL relationship (e.g., you marrying your mother) has anything to do with Gay people.

Feel free to keep using that as your argument. Its not working for you guys though.

By the end of this year, five more states will legalize Gay marriage. If the Supreme Court doesn't beat them to the punch by legalizing it nationally first.

So is gay marriage all about equity or not?

(04-29-2013 11:35 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(04-29-2013 11:03 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(04-29-2013 10:26 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(04-29-2013 09:55 PM)TedHead Wrote:  I am glad that most people are educated. I cannot fault the ignorant on this issue. They believe it is a choice because they choose to believe its a choice. Evolution is ridding society of this way of thinking, because education is bringing awareness. Gay Pride Parades serve the purpose to educate. More and more straight people are participating.
When you call it a deformity or a result of sexual abuse you are choosing dangerous words for young people out there who are struggling with these feelings. You are writing their suicide notes.
Everyone knows a gay person weather you know they are gay or not. Since Homo sapiens evolved, homosexuality has been around. Nature vs Nurture, I believe its a little bit of both.
In VA sodomy is still the law, Gays can be fired for being suspected of being gay, and we all know about the marriage thing. So Gays do not have the same rights. Gays pay taxes, however the they do not have the right to life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness as a hetero does. So the constitution should read all Heterosexual Men are Created Equal. Are we a Democracy or are we a Theocracy?

You're fine with me marrying my mother then?

I utterly fail to see how a theorhetical HETEROSEXUAL relationship (e.g., you marrying your mother) has anything to do with Gay people.

Feel free to keep using that as your argument. Its not working for you guys though.

By the end of this year, five more states will legalize Gay marriage. If the Supreme Court doesn't beat them to the punch by legalizing it nationally first.

So is gay marriage all about equity or not?

Yes. Its about equality.

If you want to try to equate consensual gay relationships between unrelated adults to straight incestual relationships, and then attempt to use your risable link as some reason to oppose Gay marriage equality, feel free to do so.

But understand that very few buy your arguments, those arguments immediately make you lose any shred of credibility with lots of straight people (and a lot of Republicans too), and they offend huge swaths of the American population, who are increasing reacting to arguments such as yours with public pronouncements directly in favor of Gay marriage.

If you want to marry your mother, you are free to advocate for legalized straight incest. But then again, in many states straight incest is LEGAL (at least among first cousins) while Gay marriage is illegal. Something to think about.

We can always count on SingleIssueTom to make an appearance and lecture us on what its like to be gay in another country and how some obscure organization somewhere supports a nation who discriminates against gays and how this barely noticeable basketball player won't fall into obscurity when the fanfare is over. Tom, you're predictable and boring.

Tom, I just want to know if you are truly for marriage equality or not. You're working overtime to not answer. If me, my mom and sister were in a consensual, loving relationship, would you support our right to marry?

Quote:Tiger woods is huge... And nowhere near the first Black professional golfer, but he is one of the best (black or white) of all time..

Pretty safe to say that Tiger isn't gay.

(04-29-2013 11:42 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(04-29-2013 11:35 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(04-29-2013 11:03 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(04-29-2013 10:26 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(04-29-2013 09:55 PM)TedHead Wrote:  I am glad that most people are educated. I cannot fault the ignorant on this issue. They believe it is a choice because they choose to believe its a choice. Evolution is ridding society of this way of thinking, because education is bringing awareness. Gay Pride Parades serve the purpose to educate. More and more straight people are participating.
When you call it a deformity or a result of sexual abuse you are choosing dangerous words for young people out there who are struggling with these feelings. You are writing their suicide notes.
Everyone knows a gay person weather you know they are gay or not. Since Homo sapiens evolved, homosexuality has been around. Nature vs Nurture, I believe its a little bit of both.
In VA sodomy is still the law, Gays can be fired for being suspected of being gay, and we all know about the marriage thing. So Gays do not have the same rights. Gays pay taxes, however the they do not have the right to life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness as a hetero does. So the constitution should read all Heterosexual Men are Created Equal. Are we a Democracy or are we a Theocracy?

You're fine with me marrying my mother then?

I utterly fail to see how a theorhetical HETEROSEXUAL relationship (e.g., you marrying your mother) has anything to do with Gay people.

Feel free to keep using that as your argument. Its not working for you guys though.

By the end of this year, five more states will legalize Gay marriage. If the Supreme Court doesn't beat them to the punch by legalizing it nationally first.

So is gay marriage all about equity or not?

Yes. Its about equality.

If you want to try to equate consensual gay relationships between unrelated adults to straight incestual relationships, and then attempt to use your risable link as some reason to oppose Gay marriage equality, feel free to do so.

But understand that very few buy your arguments, those arguments immediately make you lose any shred of credibility with lots of straight people (and a lot of Republicans too), and they offend huge swaths of the American population, who are increasing reacting to arguments such as yours with public pronouncements directly in favor of Gay marriage.

If you want to marry your mother, you are free to advocate for legalized straight incest. But then again, in many states straight incest is LEGAL (at least among first cousins) while Gay marriage is illegal. Something to think about.

Gay sex involves tearing up someone's colon and rectal tissues and the damage is permanent when done chronically over time. In some ways, it is actually worse than heterosexual incestual sex. Is this taught in the educational gay pride parades? Frankly, it is you body, do what you want. I don't support sodomy laws or any government involvement in your personal decisions (whether you believe the orientation is a choice or not, actually shoving something up your butthole is), but I fail to see what there is to be proud about.

(04-30-2013 07:39 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(04-29-2013 11:42 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(04-29-2013 11:35 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(04-29-2013 11:03 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(04-29-2013 10:26 PM)Paul M Wrote:  You're fine with me marrying my mother then?

I utterly fail to see how a theorhetical HETEROSEXUAL relationship (e.g., you marrying your mother) has anything to do with Gay people.

Feel free to keep using that as your argument. Its not working for you guys though.

By the end of this year, five more states will legalize Gay marriage. If the Supreme Court doesn't beat them to the punch by legalizing it nationally first.

So is gay marriage all about equity or not?

Yes. Its about equality.

If you want to try to equate consensual gay relationships between unrelated adults to straight incestual relationships, and then attempt to use your risable link as some reason to oppose Gay marriage equality, feel free to do so.

But understand that very few buy your arguments, those arguments immediately make you lose any shred of credibility with lots of straight people (and a lot of Republicans too), and they offend huge swaths of the American population, who are increasing reacting to arguments such as yours with public pronouncements directly in favor of Gay marriage.

If you want to marry your mother, you are free to advocate for legalized straight incest. But then again, in many states straight incest is LEGAL (at least among first cousins) while Gay marriage is illegal. Something to think about.

Gay sex involves tearing up someone's colon and rectal tissues and the damage is permanent when done chronically over time. In some ways, it is actually worse than heterosexual incestual sex. Is this taught in the educational gay pride parades? Frankly, it is you body, do what you want. I don't support sodomy laws or any government involvement in your personal decisions (whether you believe the orientation is a choice or not, actually shoving something up your butthole is), but I fail to see what there is to be proud about.

While you keep floating that "argument" two more states just legalized Gay marriage. And two more countries.

(04-30-2013 06:35 AM)ImMoreAwesomeThanYou Wrote:  We can always count on SingleIssueTom to make an appearance and lecture us on what its like to be gay in another country and how some obscure organization somewhere supports a nation who discriminates against gays and how this barely noticeable basketball player won't fall into obscurity when the fanfare is over. Tom, you're predictable and boring.

And leave it to you guys to rehash the same discredited and utterly ineffective arguments against Gay equality and, in many cases, Gay people.

(04-30-2013 09:09 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(04-30-2013 06:35 AM)ImMoreAwesomeThanYou Wrote:  We can always count on SingleIssueTom to make an appearance and lecture us on what its like to be gay in another country and how some obscure organization somewhere supports a nation who discriminates against gays and how this barely noticeable basketball player won't fall into obscurity when the fanfare is over. Tom, you're predictable and boring.

And leave it to you guys to rehash the same discredited and utterly ineffective arguments against Gay equality and, in many cases, Gay people.

Lazymindedtom speaks.... All I hear is rubbish

Positive rep me or I'll sell you to gypsies.

(04-29-2013 05:34 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  

(04-29-2013 04:42 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(04-29-2013 04:03 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  

(04-29-2013 11:47 AM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  No rings, no all-star appearances, hasn't logged a 20 MPG avg in about 7 years. I guess every man needs a legacy.

I'd think the 30+ million dollars he's earned during his 12 year NBA career would be legacy enough.

All that money and before today if you had asked just about anyone if they knew about him, you would've gotten a large resounding "Who?" If he had retired without coming out, they wouldn't even have mentioned his retirement on the Wizards' website.

So that MUST be why he's doing it, huh? [/rollseyes]

Well that, and the man has been hit up with a couple of $Million worth of endorsements since coming out.

He's gay and I respect him from coming out, it's hard to do. I've been in band and arts my entire life, I have a lot of gay friends and I know that it's hard for them.

With that being said, it's naive to take anything anyone says in the public eye at face value. No photo op, no advertisement, no statement, and certainly no public confession deserves to go unquestioned.

Just do not see why it's such a big deal really.

(04-24-2013 09:41 AM)TG4 Wrote:  He just kicked the winning field goal at Maryland as time ran out.

Just sayin'. And I totally disapprove of his chosen lifestyle

I totally disapprove of your chosen lifestyle as well.

(04-29-2013 10:01 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  Because if you suggest for a minute that that something might have happened to push a person one way or another some self righteous moron starts waxing on about how you hate people.

Hate = disagreement to these people. There is a distinction, but they miss it by a mile.

Frankly, I don't really give a rip about some athlete's sexual preferences. If I tune in to a SPORTS broadcast, I actually want to see and hear about the game and SPORTS, not IDENTITY POLITICS.

(04-29-2013 11:20 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Try being a Gay kid dealing with the ignorance (which is the nicest way I could put it) going on in those locker rooms. I've been there. Its not fun. This matters. Maybe not to you. But to people like me, it does.

Ignorance != Not wanting to be in a room naked with people attracted to your gender.... Sorry but you can't ignore this one away.

I once had someone like you, someone who equated discomfort with hate ask me...

"What would you do if a Man kissed you without asking.."

My answer "Same thing I would expect my daughter to do if a man kissed her without asking, put his lights out"...

They were expecting some kind (1) uncomfortable silence or (2) me to play up the gay hater role so they could be smug...

Quote:Collins was the first to come out publically. But he won't be the last. Feel free to compare him to the dumbest doctor if you wish.

Way to take that comment out of context Tom, I should have known better than to be nuanced with you.

(04-30-2013 07:08 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(04-29-2013 11:20 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Try being a Gay kid dealing with the ignorance (which is the nicest way I could put it) going on in those locker rooms. I've been there. Its not fun. This matters. Maybe not to you. But to people like me, it does.

Ignorance != Not wanting to be in a room naked with people attracted to your gender.... Sorry but you can't ignore this one away.

I once had someone like you, someone who equated discomfort with hate ask me...

"What would you do if a Man kissed you without asking.."

My answer "Same thing I would expect my daughter to do if a man kissed her without asking, put his lights out"...

They were expecting some kind (1) uncomfortable silence or (2) me to play up the gay hater role so they could be smug...

Quote:Collins was the first to come out publically. But he won't be the last. Feel free to compare him to the dumbest doctor if you wish.

Way to take that comment out of context Tom, I should have known better than to be nuanced with you.

Even the dumbest student in medical school is still called doctor. Was that the quote? Really, please extrapolate your reference in the context of discussing Jason Collins.

Regarding the shower issue. The issue of sexual interest was not what I was discussing. i was discussing the homophobic BS talk that goes on there. If you've played sports, you've probably showered with lots of Gay men. You just didn't know it. Quite frankly, I don't see why they just don't go to shower stalls anyway. Seriously, we are talking about college and the NBA for crying out loud. They can afford it. They have females in these locker rooms (press members etc.).

I fail to get the connection between a discussion of a Gay athlete and you bringing a hypothetical example of sexual assault.

But at least you touch on the fact that the issue is really internal to yourself, in that you personally fear showering with Gay men (well at least those that you know are Gay).

So what's your solution? Bar Gays from sports because you think some Gay athlete is 'gonna put some moves on you in the locker room?' Why does a closeted Gay man threaten you less than an openly Gay one? Again, whats the solution? You getting over your hangups (or not - I seriously doubt you're playing on a team where you have to take group showers now) or just banning Gay people from being out or participating in athletics? I'm dying to hear this one.

Here's a big secret. Most Gay man prefer to have sex with.......(drumroll)........ Other Gay men! Not some closeted guy with more issues than National Geographic. Or some random "straight" guy on their team whose probably not interested. Its not like its hard to find Gay men who want to have sex. I would imagine for an athlete competing at a collegiate or a professional level, finding sexual outlets in the community would not be a problem.

It's just a matter of time before the most anti-gay politicians and voters die off. The younger generation will make marriage equality a nationwide law, it just may take a few years.

Funny how you people with issues try to make out the rest of us as having issues.

(04-30-2013 07:49 PM)Paul M Wrote:  Funny how you people with issues try to make out the rest of us as having issues.

The old "you people" argument, huh...niiiice!

(04-30-2013 06:54 PM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  

(04-29-2013 10:01 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  Because if you suggest for a minute that that something might have happened to push a person one way or another some self righteous moron starts waxing on about how you hate people.

Hate = disagreement to these people. There is a distinction, but they miss it by a mile.

Frankly, I don't really give a rip about some athlete's sexual preferences. If I tune in to a SPORTS broadcast, I actually want to see and hear about the game and SPORTS, not IDENTITY POLITICS.

So long as the FCA and the Tony Dungees, Reggie Whites, etc. have their say, then its perfectly fair for Gay athletes to have an equal opportunity to use their skills to advocate against discrimination and bias

And you will eventually see Gay athletes not being a big deal. Like with female athletes, it eventually will not be a big deal. But there is a period where it will be a big news story. We are entering that period now. We might as well get this part over with.

If you don't like Gay people identifying with a particular political group or cause, please note that we certainly have our reasons for doing so. The only thing I have in common with every other Gay man in America is that we are both Gay and we both face discrimination and abuse as a result. That's where the identity politics comes from

We have to think about how issues affect me first, because others are actively trying to harm my family and myself. Straight white christians don't face anything remotely approaching what we still face.

Remove the discrimination and the stigma and there won't be as much of an identity.

And if you think I should be banned from living in the same country as my partner, because we are Gay, then you're a hater. Its not a disagreement. If you think I should have to pay extra taxes because my partner is male, then you're a hater. Its not a disagreement. If you think I should be subject to discrimination in employment, pay, and benefits simply because I am Gay, then you are a hater. These aren't esoteric issues for us. These issue are real.