(03-17-2013 09:12 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(03-17-2013 09:04 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(03-17-2013 08:53 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  There's no disagreement here. Single parent households miss out on a great deal, and most of that benefit extends far beyond the financial aspects...

I'm not sure how you create something that was never there. The 2 parent household in the AA community has never really existed. From the age of slavery, mothers, fathers, husbands, wives have been split apart. The burden of raising families has always been on the women.

And while women are good at knowing what they want in a man, they know little about what makes a man, and raising a son to become the man they want is a nearly impossible task for most women...

I hate to sound sexist but women make horrible choices regarding men.

(03-17-2013 09:42 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(03-17-2013 09:12 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(03-17-2013 09:04 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(03-17-2013 08:53 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  There's no disagreement here. Single parent households miss out on a great deal, and most of that benefit extends far beyond the financial aspects...

I'm not sure how you create something that was never there. The 2 parent household in the AA community has never really existed. From the age of slavery, mothers, fathers, husbands, wives have been split apart. The burden of raising families has always been on the women.

And while women are good at knowing what they want in a man, they know little about what makes a man, and raising a son to become the man they want is a nearly impossible task for most women...

It's also factually incorrect to say two parent households were never there, they were never down at the level where white families were because of the post slavery world but they were begining to approach it. Through the early part of the 1900's and started a small uptick during the second world war and Korean War conflict before the great society blew them through the roof.

I wonder what caused the sudden downswing in the mid nineties?

People have different reasons for why they come up on a side in a debate. I'm going to pull a Portman here and tell you all why I come up so passionately on one side of the debate. I know for a fact I wouldn't speak or act like I do if this didn't happen to me. About the fourth month in the pregnancy of our 4th child they discovered an omphalocele. We were sent to a level 3 or 4 specialist (I forget the designation) in Cleveland. While the specialist looked at the ultra sounds the mood became very grim. A time of promise and hope quickly became that of despair. The Dr. pulled out this 8 inch long needle and inserted it into my wife's womb. They took out some amniotic fluid surrounding the baby to do an amniocentisis. We were told they were going to do a special type of amniocentisis so they could get the results back in a day. We asked the Dr.why? Ohio recently passed a law abolishing all abortions after a certain point and we were two days til that deadline? You can imagine how a couple would take that news. So I had an hour long drive home with an unconsolable wife.

A little backstory. We lost our first child to a graft host disease. He lived his 5 months on earth at a hospital. He suffered from the same genetic condition as my 4th child but at the time we had no idea. His body copied the white blood cells of a blood donor and since he didn't have an immune system it attacked his body. The condition is called multi intestinal atresias with severe combined immuno deficiency syndrome. My wife never left the bedside. At the time I remember thinking how in the hell can I raise two kids by myself with a child in the hospital. So we had those discussion that only a family should have. How can we afford college for the two on one income? Do we want to continue the pregnancy?

Well the next day we go back and read the karyotype. It all comes back negative. No chromosomal abnormalities. So we are thinking cool we talk about our first born with the Dr. but he tells us that this omphalocele isn't that. He assures these things happen all the time and to be relieved. I remember leaving his office that day invigorated. It was a day of relief.

We now know that the affliction is caused by a recessive gene on the 14th chromosome. The Dr. was wrong that day. The omphalocele was a direct result of the multi intestinal atresia.

5 years later my wife has now quit her lucrative job and we live day by day step by step. She has taken on a part time job that she can miss whenever a nurse calls off a shift. We have gaps in coverage at least 8 times a month. I have went 36 hours without sleep because my wife just went 48. We can make no plans for the future. We require 24 hours of nursing care and we have went days without any. My daughter leaves the house one day every two weeks to go to the Cleveland Clinic. A special needs child can be VERY rewarding but it also brings a set of personal life altering consequences. To the very fiber of my being I believe you have to make this a choice. If a situation described above is viewed out of the lens of force it brings on a whole other dynamic.

As I have said we have two perfectly fine and healthy children and I sometimes weep at how this has affected them. They don't deserve this. I can't share the same childhood with my son that I had with my father. We can't go on camping trips. We can't go on family vacations.

I know I lash out at people like BIE because I want to make them aware that life isn't black and white. No one. Absolutely no one deserves to make a rash decision in 24 hours that will effect the rest of their lives. I live and breathe this. I love my daughter with all of my heart but desperation has visited me in some very dark hours. I couldn't even begin to fathom how a single mother could do this.

I want to apologize to BIE. He has no idea of my back story and how I envision the right to lifers. I'm sure he thinks his cause is just, but to me they are the embodiment of intolerance and ignorance. They do not know what consequences their actions have put on people.

(03-17-2013 09:48 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(03-17-2013 09:42 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(03-17-2013 09:12 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(03-17-2013 09:04 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(03-17-2013 08:53 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  There's no disagreement here. Single parent households miss out on a great deal, and most of that benefit extends far beyond the financial aspects...

I'm not sure how you create something that was never there. The 2 parent household in the AA community has never really existed. From the age of slavery, mothers, fathers, husbands, wives have been split apart. The burden of raising families has always been on the women.

And while women are good at knowing what they want in a man, they know little about what makes a man, and raising a son to become the man they want is a nearly impossible task for most women...

It's also factually incorrect to say two parent households were never there, they were never down at the level where white families were because of the post slavery world but they were begining to approach it. Through the early part of the 1900's and started a small uptick during the second world war and Korean War conflict before the great society blew them through the roof.

I wonder what caused the sudden downswing in the mid nineties?

Well the higher it got the more likely a dip was...

(03-17-2013 09:58 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(03-17-2013 09:48 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(03-17-2013 09:42 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(03-17-2013 09:12 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(03-17-2013 09:04 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  I'm not sure how you create something that was never there. The 2 parent household in the AA community has never really existed. From the age of slavery, mothers, fathers, husbands, wives have been split apart. The burden of raising families has always been on the women.

And while women are good at knowing what they want in a man, they know little about what makes a man, and raising a son to become the man they want is a nearly impossible task for most women...

It's also factually incorrect to say two parent households were never there, they were never down at the level where white families were because of the post slavery world but they were begining to approach it. Through the early part of the 1900's and started a small uptick during the second world war and Korean War conflict before the great society blew them through the roof.

I wonder what caused the sudden downswing in the mid nineties?

Well the higher it got the more likely a dip was...

I was just wondering if there was an event that may have caused this. Maybe some education program? It just looks interesting because it happened in both racial profiles.

Mach, taking care of your child and killing it are not the only options.

(03-17-2013 09:52 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  People have different reasons for why they come up on a side in a debate. I'm going to pull a Portman here and tell you all why I come up so passionately on one side of the debate. I know for a fact I wouldn't speak or act like I do if this didn't happen to me. About the fourth month in the pregnancy of our 4th child they discovered an omphalocele. We were sent to a level 3 or 4 specialist (I forget the designation) in Cleveland. While the specialist looked at the ultra sounds the mood became very grim. A time of promise and hope quickly became that of despair. The Dr. pulled out this 8 inch long needle and inserted it into my wife's womb. They took out some amniotic fluid surrounding the baby to do an amniocentisis. We were told they were going to do a special type of amniocentisis so they could get the results back in a day. We asked the Dr.why? Ohio recently passed a law abolishing all abortions after a certain point and we were two days til that deadline? You can imagine how a couple would take that news. So I had an hour long drive home with an unconsolable wife.

A little backstory. We lost our first child to a graft host disease. He lived his 5 months on earth at a hospital. He suffered from the same genetic condition as my 4th child but at the time we had no idea. His body copied the white blood cells of a blood donor and since he didn't have an immune system it attacked his body. The condition is called multi intestinal atresias with severe combined immuno deficiency syndrome. My wife never left the bedside. At the time I remember thinking how in the hell can I raise two kids by myself with a child in the hospital. So we had those discussion that only a family should have. How can we afford college for the two on one income? Do we want to continue the pregnancy?

Well the next day we go back and read the karyotype. It all comes back negative. No chromosomal abnormalities. So we are thinking cool we talk about our first born with the Dr. but he tells us that this omphalocele isn't that. He assures these things happen all the time and to be relieved. I remember leaving his office that day invigorated. It was a day of relief.

We now know that the affliction is caused by a recessive gene on the 14th chromosome. The Dr. was wrong that day. The omphalocele was a direct result of the multi intestinal atresia.

5 years later my wife has now quit her lucrative job and we live day by day step by step. She has taken on a part time job that she can miss whenever a nurse calls off a shift. We have gaps in coverage at least 8 times a month. I have went 36 hours without sleep because my wife just went 48. We can make no plans for the future. We require 24 hours of nursing care and we have went days without any. My daughter leaves the house one day every two weeks to go to the Cleveland Clinic. A special needs child can be VERY rewarding but it also brings a set of personal life altering consequences. To the very fiber of my being I believe you have to make this a choice. If a situation described above is viewed out of the lens of force it brings on a whole other dynamic.

As I have said we have two perfectly fine and healthy children and I sometimes weep at how this has affected them. They don't deserve this. I can't share the same childhood with my son that I had with my father. We can't go on camping trips. We can't go on family vacations.

I know I lash out at people like BIE because I want to make them aware that life isn't black and white. No one. Absolutely no one deserves to make a rash decision in 24 hours that will effect the rest of their lives. I live and breath this. I love my daughter with all of my heart but desperation has visited me in some very dark hours. I couldn't even begin to fathom how a single mother could do this.

I want to apologize to BIE. He has no idea of my back story and how I envision the right to lifers. I'm sure he thinks his cause is just, but to me they are the embodiment of intolerance and ignorance. They do not know what consequences their actions have put on people.

You are correct IMO. This issue is not black and white nor is it an easy one to address. I understand your angst.

(03-17-2013 10:19 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(03-17-2013 09:52 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  People have different reasons for why they come up on a side in a debate. I'm going to pull a Portman here and tell you all why I come up so passionately on one side of the debate. I know for a fact I wouldn't speak or act like I do if this didn't happen to me. About the fourth month in the pregnancy of our 4th child they discovered an omphalocele. We were sent to a level 3 or 4 specialist (I forget the designation) in Cleveland. While the specialist looked at the ultra sounds the mood became very grim. A time of promise and hope quickly became that of despair. The Dr. pulled out this 8 inch long needle and inserted it into my wife's womb. They took out some amniotic fluid surrounding the baby to do an amniocentisis. We were told they were going to do a special type of amniocentisis so they could get the results back in a day. We asked the Dr.why? Ohio recently passed a law abolishing all abortions after a certain point and we were two days til that deadline? You can imagine how a couple would take that news. So I had an hour long drive home with an unconsolable wife.

A little backstory. We lost our first child to a graft host disease. He lived his 5 months on earth at a hospital. He suffered from the same genetic condition as my 4th child but at the time we had no idea. His body copied the white blood cells of a blood donor and since he didn't have an immune system it attacked his body. The condition is called multi intestinal atresias with severe combined immuno deficiency syndrome. My wife never left the bedside. At the time I remember thinking how in the hell can I raise two kids by myself with a child in the hospital. So we had those discussion that only a family should have. How can we afford college for the two on one income? Do we want to continue the pregnancy?

Well the next day we go back and read the karyotype. It all comes back negative. No chromosomal abnormalities. So we are thinking cool we talk about our first born with the Dr. but he tells us that this omphalocele isn't that. He assures these things happen all the time and to be relieved. I remember leaving his office that day invigorated. It was a day of relief.

We now know that the affliction is caused by a recessive gene on the 14th chromosome. The Dr. was wrong that day. The omphalocele was a direct result of the multi intestinal atresia.

5 years later my wife has now quit her lucrative job and we live day by day step by step. She has taken on a part time job that she can miss whenever a nurse calls off a shift. We have gaps in coverage at least 8 times a month. I have went 36 hours without sleep because my wife just went 48. We can make no plans for the future. We require 24 hours of nursing care and we have went days without any. My daughter leaves the house one day every two weeks to go to the Cleveland Clinic. A special needs child can be VERY rewarding but it also brings a set of personal life altering consequences. To the very fiber of my being I believe you have to make this a choice. If a situation described above is viewed out of the lens of force it brings on a whole other dynamic.

As I have said we have two perfectly fine and healthy children and I sometimes weep at how this has affected them. They don't deserve this. I can't share the same childhood with my son that I had with my father. We can't go on camping trips. We can't go on family vacations.

I know I lash out at people like BIE because I want to make them aware that life isn't black and white. No one. Absolutely no one deserves to make a rash decision in 24 hours that will effect the rest of their lives. I live and breath this. I love my daughter with all of my heart but desperation has visited me in some very dark hours. I couldn't even begin to fathom how a single mother could do this.

I want to apologize to BIE. He has no idea of my back story and how I envision the right to lifers. I'm sure he thinks his cause is just, but to me they are the embodiment of intolerance and ignorance. They do not know what consequences their actions have put on people.

You are correct IMO. This issue is not black and white nor is it an easy one to address. I understand your angst.

I think BIE is saying that to him the black and white part is that life begins at conception but he also understands some families have to make difficult decisions regarding that life.

Mach, don't take this the wrong way but from what you typed it sounds like if the doctor was not wrong you would have aborted. Am I reading that right? Again, I fully understand how sensitive of an issue this is so please don't misunderstand me. I don't want to inflame an already sensitive issue.


Sent from my iPad2 using Tapatalk

I can't answer that because I didn't have to make that decision. We didn't know what we were going to do if the results came back chromosomal abnormality. I know which way I was leaning because I already lost one child and it's horrifying. My wife was in no shape to make any decision and I knew we weren't on the same page. I was very conscious of making sure she didn't resent me at the end of it. Then to put a chess clock on that decision. We literally would have had 2 hours to make that decision. Just a Fuken nightmare.

Just to clarify. A karyotype doesn't show single allele disorders. Only trisomies, monosomies, and chromosomal abnormalities.

(03-17-2013 09:47 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(03-17-2013 09:12 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(03-17-2013 09:04 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(03-17-2013 08:53 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  There's no disagreement here. Single parent households miss out on a great deal, and most of that benefit extends far beyond the financial aspects...

I'm not sure how you create something that was never there. The 2 parent household in the AA community has never really existed. From the age of slavery, mothers, fathers, husbands, wives have been split apart. The burden of raising families has always been on the women.

And while women are good at knowing what they want in a man, they know little about what makes a man, and raising a son to become the man they want is a nearly impossible task for most women...

I hate to sound sexist but women make horrible choices regarding men.

I never said they were good at choosing men. Knowing what they want and then finding it are 2 different things...

Mach, sorry to hear about the problems you've had with your children. Nobody should have to suffer like that...

Speaking of women and decisions with men. My Mom and Dad instilled in me to look at a future spouses relationships with their parents. My Dad always said look at how a son treats his Mom. That will tell you all you need to know. If you ever have a daughter make sure you tell her to watch how her date treats his Mom. That always stuck with me. Wise words. The other one that always stuck. Never be the guy who a girl cheats on to start a relationship. What do you think will happen to you when you are now the guy in the relationship? Again wise words from the old man.

You know another one. A girl will always be attracted to someone like their father. Think about that one when it comes to f'd up relationships.


and just for the record. My father in law is a great guy.

Back to gay marriage. It's a political loser for Republicans. Every election cycle they have a chance to get out in front of it, and every time, so far, they dig in their heels.

(03-17-2013 01:33 PM)Smaug Wrote:  Back to gay marriage. It's a political loser for Republicans. Every election cycle they have a chance to get out in front of it, and every time, so far, they dig in their heels.

If they're going get out in front of it they need to do it without doing it. That would mean pushing to end federal recognition of marriage and leave it strictly to states in every way. You don't come out in favor of it when such a huge portion of your base is against it, but you let them fight it out at the state level.

(03-17-2013 10:27 AM)ImMoreAwesomeThanYou Wrote:  I think BIE is saying that to him the black and white part is that life begins at conception but he also understands some families have to make difficult decisions regarding that life.

This... And the life of a crippled child is all the equal of the life of a healthy child. PERIOD!

(03-17-2013 01:35 PM)Ninerfan1 Wrote:  

(03-17-2013 01:33 PM)Smaug Wrote:  Back to gay marriage. It's a political loser for Republicans. Every election cycle they have a chance to get out in front of it, and every time, so far, they dig in their heels.

If they're going get out in front of it they need to do it without doing it. That would mean pushing to end federal recognition of marriage and leave it strictly to states in every way. You don't come out in favor of it when such a huge portion of your base is against it, but you let them fight it out at the state level.

That's not a cop out either, it's federalism 101..

Well, there's the 14th amendment.

(03-17-2013 01:21 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  You know another one. A girl will always be attracted to someone like their father. Think about that one when it comes to f'd up relationships.


and just for the record. My father in law is a great guy.

My father in law was a good provider to his family. But he was sadly lacking in social skills outside of his work. His only friends were people he'd known since high school, and near the end of his life, he had way too few of them left...

He and I never saw eye to eye. We were alike in some respects. In other things we were way to different. But we respected each other because of his daughter. Neither of us wanted to see her hurt, and we did the best we could in that respect. That included being civil with one another...

(03-17-2013 01:21 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  You know another one. A girl will always be attracted to someone like their father. Think about that one when it comes to f'd up relationships.


and just for the record. My father in law is a great guy.

I am nothing like my Father in law. He is a better man than I will ever be.

My daughter is though very involved with a guy that is my clone in regard to his personality. Everyone keeps telling her she is dating her dad.