In their report that has been widely quoted as saying that Obamacare would "reduce the federal deficit" (that's not exactly what it said, by the way), CBO also said that 1) it was questionable whether the promised cost savings could be achieved, and 2) if achieved, it was unclear to what extent they would come from improved administration, lower quality, or reduced access. My expectation is that the savings won't be achieved (which blows the "reduced deficit" out of the water) and as a result we will see lowerquality and reduced access imposed in what will become a failed effort to cut costs.

The problem is that health care is really at least two very different products/services, specifically 1) keeping well people well, and 2) treating sick people. Socialized systems do a good job of 1 and a crappy job of 2. Our system does a good job of 2 and a crappy job of 1. Mixed systems like the Bismarcks can do an acceptable job of both.

(03-16-2013 06:20 PM)GoApps70 Wrote:  At least "spreading the wealth" is a consistent theme that makes sense somewhat in their actions.

But the spreading around was the first part, the incoming provisions will raise rates across the board. If you're 60 or older enjoy the lower rates now because they will be going up.

(03-15-2013 06:49 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  Crickets from the Left.

Oh, I am here laughing hysterically at you guys.

(03-17-2013 09:41 AM)RobertN Wrote:  

(03-15-2013 06:49 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  Crickets from the Left.

Oh, I am here laughing hysterically at you guys.

Feel free to add anything of substance to the conversation.

I throw my arms up at this. Again, I live and breathe this. When Obamacare went into effect my daughter was at her cap. We were literally at her lifetime max the month it was signed into law? I know the State of Ohio had a CHIPS or SHIPS program for children with severe medical issues. Maybe that would have kicked in I don't know. What I see and live is the rationing part. We are entitled to 16 hours of nursing care through a Medicaid program. Well they pay the nurses 17 dollars an hour. We require a RN becuase of her central line. It's a broviac that feeds her through her heart. A RN makes 40 dollars an hour at our local hospital. So yes you can get nurses but it's going to be on their time and their convenience.

Every month the Cleveland Clinic sends us a bill for 100,000 thousand dollars picked up by someone. We visit the place two times a month. I don't know how they can charge that but they do. I believe my insurance picks up 250,000 of that. Every year at the beginning of the year we have a meeting with our insurance consortium. They always make out the point that rates have raised 20% and just 12 people take up 98% of the costs of the consortium. So I feel my fellow workers look. I just think it's human nature. So insurance is getting more expensive and I think the hospitals are gouging us and I don't have any answers.

I'm starting to see evidence of this rationing but I don't know how you can't ration.

(03-17-2013 09:50 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(03-17-2013 09:41 AM)RobertN Wrote:  

(03-15-2013 06:49 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  Crickets from the Left.

Oh, I am here laughing hysterically at you guys.

Feel free to add anything of substance to the conversation.

Robert is incapable of adding any honest discussion to the issue so he reacts in his typical "laugh it off" style.

This national health care plan is going to cost America literally BILLIONS in reduced wages and extra costs for worse health care and he - along with his fellow goosestepping liberal buddies - could give a less.

All that matters is Lord Zero rammed it through Congress with a full majority in boht Houses without any Republican input whatsoever. The Democrat majority locked them out of any talks or discussion.

This was simply an exercise to pass a major legislation as an "in your face" to Republicans.

(03-17-2013 11:22 AM)boss man Wrote:  

(03-17-2013 09:50 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(03-17-2013 09:41 AM)RobertN Wrote:  

(03-15-2013 06:49 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  Crickets from the Left.

Oh, I am here laughing hysterically at you guys.

Feel free to add anything of substance to the conversation.

Robert is incapable of adding any honest discussion to the issue so he reacts in his typical "laugh it off" style.

This national health care plan is going to cost America literally BILLIONS in reduced wages and extra costs for worse health care and he - along with his fellow goosestepping liberal buddies - could give a "scout: less.

All that matters is Lord Zero rammed it through Congress with a full majority in boht Houses without any Republican input whatsoever. The Democrat majority locked them out of any talks or discussion.

This was simply an exercise to pass a major legislation as an "in your face" to Republicans.

I have said all along that I believed some type of National Healthcare had to happen. I fear though that this system is doomed for failure. It is going to be great for young people because it will offer them good preventive care while they are in their healthy years. Not so much later on when they age and become more and more prone to health issues.

After reading up a bit on this I agree with Owl that the Bismark system looks to be what we should have done...A mixture of both public and private funding and whopping insurance reform. The Bismark systems seem to give the best mixture of quality care and affordability.

Does anyone really know what the ACA is? Honestly...I tried to do some basic research on this and it is all over the place in regard to information. I have a feeling this is a poorly constructed mess that is going to take decades to sort out. It may be OK..but..It looks like we are going to have to find out the hard way and go through a lot of changes to get it workable. I am not optimistic that is possible. We may well have been sold a horrible piece of legislation. I guess we are going to find out.

(03-17-2013 12:40 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(03-17-2013 11:22 AM)boss man Wrote:  

(03-17-2013 09:50 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(03-17-2013 09:41 AM)RobertN Wrote:  

(03-15-2013 06:49 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  Crickets from the Left.

Oh, I am here laughing hysterically at you guys.

Feel free to add anything of substance to the conversation.

Robert is incapable of adding any honest discussion to the issue so he reacts in his typical "laugh it off" style.

This national health care plan is going to cost America literally BILLIONS in reduced wages and extra costs for worse health care and he - along with his fellow goosestepping liberal buddies - could give a "scout: less.

All that matters is Lord Zero rammed it through Congress with a full majority in boht Houses without any Republican input whatsoever. The Democrat majority locked them out of any talks or discussion.

This was simply an exercise to pass a major legislation as an "in your face" to Republicans.

I have said all along that I believed some type of National Healthcare had to happen. I fear though that this system is doomed for failure. It is going to be great for young people because it will offer them good preventive care while they are in their healthy years. Not so much later on when they age and become more and more prone to health issues.

After reading up a bit on this I agree with Owl that the Bismark system looks to be what we should have done...A mixture of both public and private funding and whopping insurance reform. The Bismark systems seem to give the best mixture of quality care and affordability.

Does anyone really know what the ACA is? Honestly...I tried to do some basic research on this and it is all over the place in regard to information. I have a feeling this is a poorly constructed mess that is going to take decades to sort out. It may be OK..but..It looks like we are going to have to find out the hard way and go through a lot of changes to get it workable. I am not optimistic that is possible. We may well have been sold a horrible piece of legislation. I guess we are going to find out.

Unfortunately we are going to find out the hard way.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Sometimes, nothing isn't the worst thing you could do.

I don't have to have a good answer to recognize a catastrophically bad one.

(03-16-2013 02:25 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  The cost of some policies are going up and the cost of others are going down, but overall the legislation will reduce health care costs in America.

In a classroom, you can pretty much get any theory to work. In practice? Not so much. I can't wait to see you Progs start bitching about how much your "free healthcare" is costing you.

In theory, theory works well in practice.
In practice, it doesn't.

That "free" is a misnomer. But guess there is not a better term to use.

Guys. What's the answer????? I just have you a real world example on why the rates are going beejeezus. I honestly feel we need to put a national sales tax for health care. I feel the elpoyes are picking up the tab for everyone and that's not fair. There is no way the average Joe can pick up the tab. What is the answer that you could get the majority to buy in to. You have to go the sales tax route. You have to.

I'm on my iPhone so ignore the typos above

(03-18-2013 10:15 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Guys. What's the answer?????

What was the question.

Quote: I just have you a real world example on why the rates are going beejeezus. I honestly feel we need to put a national sales tax for health care. I feel the elpoyes are picking up the tab for everyone and that's not fair. There is no way the average Joe can pick up the tab.

Uh, so if average Joe can't afford to pay for his healthcare, he can afford to pay for a tax to pay for his healthcare?

Quote: What is the answer that you could get the majority to buy in to. You have to go the sales tax route. You have to.

Tell the "majority" to **** off. Democracy isn't about stealing other people's money. That's called mob rule, or warfare.

Yeah. A pool or do we as a society just say you are on your own if tragedy happens. Is that the answer? I honestly don't know and I can see both sides of it. There is no way in hell the Cleveland clinic could send out a bill for a hundred grand a month if not for insurances. It inflates the price. I also think my insurance subsidizes all of the people without health care so that's not fair either. My arms are up in the air and I honestly don't have an answer.

Another idea would be for people like torch to go off the grid. You shouldn't be forced to go into the collective. If you want to roll the die. You should be able to roll the die. All I'm saying is the people with insurance right now who are sick are propping up the whole system.

(03-18-2013 10:37 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Another idea would be for people like torch to go off the grid. You shouldn't be forced to go into the collective. If you want to roll the die. You should be able to roll the die.

I doubt that I'd have the guts to go completely "off the grid". However, getting a catastrophic policy, and shopping around for reasonable rates for standard services, and paying them w/ cash is not so crazy. Coyote does this.

When you consider how complicated it is just to use these grand insurance policies that are bragged about, it's not hard to believe that going back 40 years makes a lot of sense.

(03-18-2013 10:15 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Guys. What's the answer????? I just have you a real world example on why the rates are going beejeezus. I honestly feel we need to put a national sales tax for health care. I feel the elpoyes are picking up the tab for everyone and that's not fair. There is no way the average Joe can pick up the tab. What is the answer that you could get the majority to buy in to. You have to go the sales tax route. You have to.

Mac - Even if we came up with the perfect answer, unfortunately no one in power is going to agree with us, at least not enough. I hate taxes but your idea is better than just taking from the rich until they are poor or having everyone pay three times what they would have for health insurance. I am in favor of doing away completely with the Unaffordable No-Care Act. I had to drop my health insurance when it got too high to justify. Have had a ton of heart attacks, but paying their monthly premiums was going to give me another one.

A national sales tax is how Europe affords it, and I don't see another way. And if we do French health care, then the ability to opt out completely and utilize the private sector is always available.