(12-26-2011 08:20 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(12-26-2011 11:26 AM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  a Christian should not be afraid, ashamed, or too timid to tell others what a sin is in the eyes of God.

LOL at people who think they know what God considers a "sin" and think they have the moral superiority to tell others how to live their lives.

IF, and that's the $1million question, you are a Christian, your moral compass/standard should be set by The Bible. Like it or not The Bible is reasonably clear on what is sin (there are some gray areas) and MOST Christians don't think they are morally superior, but try to remind people there is a moral compass and it does mean some personal restraint and accountability. Christian or other that's a major problem in the US, no one wants to be personally accountable any more, there's always an excuse.

(12-26-2011 09:07 PM)mtsufan561 Wrote:  Homosexuality isn't the same as alcoholism and can't be compared to it. Instead of trying to divert the issue, why not answer what he said? You can brainwash someone to believe just about anything, but that doesn't make what is brainwashed true.

Please answer the rest of my post...

Is homosexuality the one, and only so far 'proven' aspect of humanity which is 100% nature and 0% nurture..

What he said is that you cant reform a homosexual and the he decides that anyone who is reformed is not really reformed... That's called circular reasoning. You see he sets up a hypothesis and then discounts *anything* that contradicts his hypothesis as not being true by the definition of they hypothesis.

There are people who were homosexual who are, no longer, living as homosexuals.

(12-26-2011 09:07 PM)mtsufan561 Wrote:  Homosexuality isn't the same as alcoholism and can't be compared to it.

Why not? Just b/c you say so?

Quote:Instead of trying to divert the issue, why not answer what he said? You can brainwash someone to believe just about anything, but that doesn't make what is brainwashed true.

Where is this "brainwashing"? That's the stuff of movie fiction, it has nothing to do w/ subject.

What did U2 sing about, fact is fiction and TV reality? You make their point.

(12-26-2011 08:00 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(12-26-2011 05:21 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(12-21-2011 02:44 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  They promote and associate with the completely discredited and fraudulent and harmful "ex-gay therapy" con artists like Exodus International.

Funny how the ex-gays don't think that.

You seem pretty homophobic.

Nope. There is zero evidence that someone's innate sexuality is changeable and plenty that it is not.

BS. That's simply not true.

Quote: These places prey on guilt and self-loathing largely instilled by Christianity or other mythology. The rate of "relapse" is, unsurprisingly, very high. Brainwashing just warps a person's psyche, it doesn't change who they are. Folks who are interested in truth and not dogma

Haha, you really are into cognitive dissonance, aren't you?

Quote:might actually read some of the horror stories of people who have gone through this "therapy". It's sad and archaic, and a reminder that some elements of society are still beholden to ignorant fear and superstition. I feel especially bad for young people forced into these warped institutions

Yeah, b/c the homosexual lifestyle is so healthy and uplifting.

The facts don't bear out your wishful thinking. Ignorant fear ("brainwashing!") and superstition, indeed.

(12-26-2011 09:09 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  

(12-26-2011 08:20 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(12-26-2011 11:26 AM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  a Christian should not be afraid, ashamed, or too timid to tell others what a sin is in the eyes of God.

LOL at people who think they know what God considers a "sin" and think they have the moral superiority to tell others how to live their lives.

IF, and that's the $1million question, you are a Christian, your moral compass/standard should be set by The Bible. Like it or not The Bible is reasonably clear on what is sin (there are some gray areas) and MOST Christians don't think they are morally superior, but try to remind people there is a moral compass and it does mean some personal restraint and accountability. Christian or other that's a major problem in the US, no one wants to be personally accountable any more, there's always an excuse.

Pretending you need an ancient mythology to tell you what to do and how to act and what is right or wrong is the exact opposite of personal accountability.

(12-26-2011 09:01 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  See that paragraph works if you talk about alcoholism....

WTF does alcoholism have to do with sexual orientation? Zero.

(12-26-2011 09:01 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  BTW I guess this does not count as evidence? Of course it does not because in your eyes an ex ay was either faking the gay or a relapse waiting to happen..

The irony is that it's the left, and not the right, who think that human sexuality is a simple thing... Yup your born either gay, straight, bi, transgender, cross dresser, pheodphile, or poly amerous..

Yup nothing in your life experice can have *any* thing to do with nudging you in a particular direction.

It turns out sexuality is the only thing in human nature which is 100% nature and 0% nurture.

There is a difference between not acting on same-sex attraction and being "cured" of gayness. There is absolutely zero evidence that would indicate that any of these ex-gay scam artists can actually change someone's sexuality. And your comparison of homosexuality and pedophilia is disturbing and wrong-headed, to say the least.

The "pray away the gay" charlatans are damaging and have no scientific merit, which you'd think would be a concern to right minded people - but that's not the case when you're blinded by dogma.

(12-26-2011 11:26 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  Yeah, b/c the homosexual lifestyle is so healthy and uplifting.

What the hell is a "homosexual lifestyle"? Do have any notion of what you are talking about? Should I point to a straight meth-addled prostitute as an example of the "heterosexual lifestyle"? Some straight guy who loads up on Wendy's and Burger King every day, chain smokes, beats his wife and kids - - that's uplifting alright.

I don't know what fairy tales some of you folks have been reading, but you seem to have a warped view of homosexuals. Gay or straight, we are all individuals. You really need to step away from the "us vs. them, left vs. right" mentality and start seeing people as human beings. Especially those of you who like to use the Bible or religion as a ticket that makes you think you have the moral authority to judge others. Guess what... you're no better than anyone else, no matter what ancient book of hocus pocus you choose to believe in.

(12-26-2011 11:55 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(12-26-2011 11:26 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  Yeah, b/c the homosexual lifestyle is so healthy and uplifting.

What the hell is a "homosexual lifestyle"?

If you don't know, then why are you posting about it?

You think a smug laugh means you've discredited the person you disagree with. Here's a tip, the world isn't The Daily Show. Blowing smoke to cover your willful ignorance dosn't impress me.

Quote:I don't know what fairy tales some of you folks have been reading,

Oh, so my obersvations are fairy tales, but you read a couple of articles from Salon, and you're expert? Pfft.

Quote: Gay or straight, we are all individuals.

Then why do you deny that some individuals benefit from homosexual recovery treatment? You're the one trying to make the generalizations about homosexuality. Which is it? You're trying to argue both ways.

Quote: You really need to step away from the "us vs. them, left vs. right" mentality and start seeing people as human beings.

Says the guy who bashes the humans who attend and operate Liberty.

Quote:Guess what... you're no better than anyone else,

So why are you on this forum criticizing others? Hypocrite.

(12-26-2011 11:34 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  Pretending you need an ancient mythology to tell you what to do and how to act and what is right or wrong is the exact opposite of personal accountability.

Pretending that you can ignore thousands of years of accumulated human wisdom, simply because you're "modern," is the exact opposite of educated.

Being able to utilize electricity does not somehow render 6000 years of human learning moot.

(12-26-2011 08:00 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  Nope. There is zero evidence that someone's innate sexuality is changeable and plenty that it is not.

I don't know, the prison system is pretty big. Seems to me a lot of straights go in, get fagoty, go home straight again. You'll agree that's more than zero evidence. Unless you have no regard for facts. Oh, never mind.

(12-26-2011 11:34 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(12-26-2011 09:09 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  

(12-26-2011 08:20 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(12-26-2011 11:26 AM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  a Christian should not be afraid, ashamed, or too timid to tell others what a sin is in the eyes of God.

LOL at people who think they know what God considers a "sin" and think they have the moral superiority to tell others how to live their lives.

IF, and that's the $1million question, you are a Christian, your moral compass/standard should be set by The Bible. Like it or not The Bible is reasonably clear on what is sin (there are some gray areas) and MOST Christians don't think they are morally superior, but try to remind people there is a moral compass and it does mean some personal restraint and accountability. Christian or other that's a major problem in the US, no one wants to be personally accountable any more, there's always an excuse.

Pretending you need an ancient mythology to tell you what to do and how to act and what is right or wrong is the exact opposite of personal accountability.

Wow!! And Christians are the ones with a sense of Moral Superiority. Doing what you want or what society says is okay IS the exact opposite of moral accountability. The secular saying "If it feels good do it" can lead to lots of things that will shorten your life and certainly won't do anything to help you with the after life. The "ancient mythology" as you state in Your sense of moral superiority will guide you to self restraint that certainly won't shorten your life and will definitely help you with the after life. If people are left to define what's right and wrong you get Jerry Sandusky.

(12-27-2011 08:38 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(12-26-2011 11:34 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  Pretending you need an ancient mythology to tell you what to do and how to act and what is right or wrong is the exact opposite of personal accountability.

Pretending that you can ignore thousands of years of accumulated human wisdom, simply because you're "modern," is the exact opposite of educated.

Being able to utilize electricity does not somehow render 6000 years of human learning moot.

What accumulated human wisdom? The Bible? Riiiiiight.

As a society, we are constantly advancing. 150 years ago we still had slavery in this country. 50 years ago we still had segregation. The same arguments made by evangelicals against interracial marriage are being repeated today against gay marriage.

Here's some "human wisdom" for ya: nearly 80% of Americans supported the repeal of "Don't Ask Don't Tell". Recent polling shows for the first time a slim majority of Americans support gay marriage. Why is that? Because attitudes are changing. The numbers show the oldest demographics being most opposed to gay rights, and the youngest demographic the most in favor. As the older generation dies off, a younger generation who has grown up in a more open and tolerant society - one in which being gay is really no big deal - is taking it's place.

Some of you folks are being relegated to the dustbin of history, along with the segregationists. I know this must be frustrating for ya, but that's the reality: progress marches forward. And you'll get to watch it happen.

(12-27-2011 10:38 AM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  

(12-26-2011 11:34 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(12-26-2011 09:09 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  

(12-26-2011 08:20 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(12-26-2011 11:26 AM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  a Christian should not be afraid, ashamed, or too timid to tell others what a sin is in the eyes of God.

LOL at people who think they know what God considers a "sin" and think they have the moral superiority to tell others how to live their lives.

IF, and that's the $1million question, you are a Christian, your moral compass/standard should be set by The Bible. Like it or not The Bible is reasonably clear on what is sin (there are some gray areas) and MOST Christians don't think they are morally superior, but try to remind people there is a moral compass and it does mean some personal restraint and accountability. Christian or other that's a major problem in the US, no one wants to be personally accountable any more, there's always an excuse.

Pretending you need an ancient mythology to tell you what to do and how to act and what is right or wrong is the exact opposite of personal accountability.

Wow!! And Christians are the ones with a sense of Moral Superiority. Doing what you want or what society says is okay IS the exact opposite of moral accountability. The secular saying "If it feels good do it" can lead to lots of things that will shorten your life and certainly won't do anything to help you with the after life. The "ancient mythology" as you state in Your sense of moral superiority will guide you to self restraint that certainly won't shorten your life and will definitely help you with the after life. If people are left to define what's right and wrong you get Jerry Sandusky.

Let me clue you in on something: have you ever heard of pedophile priests? I'm pretty sure they got some notion of "right and wrong" from the mythology they immersed themselves with. Of course, like many so-called Christians or adherents to other mythologies - they ignore these moral signposts that supposedly make up their religion when it suits them.

You are inventing strawmen. "If it feels good, do it". That's the attitude of all who reject religion? We need some dusty and garbled and completely incomprehensible book of folklore in order to tell us what we should do? Nope, sorry. There are plenty of agnostics and atheists who lead far more moral lives than many of the scumbag Christians out there. Ahh but they are not "real Christians" - - but who gets to make that definition? You? And anyway, like I said earlier, the Bible is as amorphous as a Rorschach test. How many different sects do we have, how many different divisions? Nobody can agree on what the Bible says or means, and yet we're supposed to use it as a guide for moral correctness No thanks.

(12-27-2011 10:43 AM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(12-27-2011 08:38 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(12-26-2011 11:34 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  Pretending you need an ancient mythology to tell you what to do and how to act and what is right or wrong is the exact opposite of personal accountability.

Pretending that you can ignore thousands of years of accumulated human wisdom, simply because you're "modern," is the exact opposite of educated.

Being able to utilize electricity does not somehow render 6000 years of human learning moot.

What accumulated human wisdom?

Exactly my point. You have to ask.

Quote:As a society, we are constantly advancing. 150 years ago we still had slavery in this country. 50 years ago we still had segregation. The same arguments made by evangelicals against interracial marriage

It's not just Evangelicals who oppose gay marriage.

BTW, since Nero was doing this same thing back in the 50s CE, how is this "advancing"?

Quote:Here's some "human wisdom" for ya: nearly 80% of Americans supported the repeal of "Don't Ask Don't Tell".

So?

Quote:Some of you folks are being relegated to the dustbin of history,

Says the guy who knows nothing about history.

(12-27-2011 08:35 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(12-26-2011 11:55 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(12-26-2011 11:26 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  Yeah, b/c the homosexual lifestyle is so healthy and uplifting.

What the hell is a "homosexual lifestyle"?

If you don't know, then why are you posting about it?

You think a smug laugh means you've discredited the person you disagree with. Here's a tip, the world isn't The Daily Show. Blowing smoke to cover your willful ignorance dosn't impress me.

Quote:I don't know what fairy tales some of you folks have been reading,

Oh, so my obersvations are fairy tales, but you read a couple of articles from Salon, and you're expert? Pfft.

Quote: Gay or straight, we are all individuals.

Then why do you deny that some individuals benefit from homosexual recovery treatment? You're the one trying to make the generalizations about homosexuality. Which is it? You're trying to argue both ways.

Quote: You really need to step away from the "us vs. them, left vs. right" mentality and start seeing people as human beings.

Says the guy who bashes the humans who attend and operate Liberty.

Quote:Guess what... you're no better than anyone else,

So why are you on this forum criticizing others? Hypocrite.

I believe the point is that generalizing the lifestyles of an entire group of people is wrong. wvucrazed is exactly right, gay or straight we're all individuals. And you're the one making generalizations by saying

(12-26-2011 11:26 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  Yeah, b/c the homosexual lifestyle is so healthy and uplifting.

The facts don't bear out your wishful thinking. Ignorant fear ("brainwashing!") and superstition, indeed.

I ask, do you actually know these facts? If it was so wonderful as you say, why, then, would nine major American healthcare organizations be so opposed to it? They include, for good measure, the American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy, the American Counseling Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the American Academy of Physician Assistants. Well, seems to me like they might know a little bit more than you about this whole issue. I have no problem with people willingly going to these "clinics" to seek treatment. Perhaps they were brought up in an unfavorable environment and want things to get better, or maybe they're very Christian and don't want to undertake in what they may view as a sin. No one should ever be forced to go to such a clinic. There are certainly some people who would want this type of treatment for whatever reason, but there are even more people who are living happy lives, who are comfortable with who they are and loving themselves, and who have good relationships with those around them.

(12-27-2011 08:35 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(12-26-2011 11:55 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(12-26-2011 11:26 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  Yeah, b/c the homosexual lifestyle is so healthy and uplifting.

What the hell is a "homosexual lifestyle"?

If you don't know, then why are you posting about it?

You think a smug laugh means you've discredited the person you disagree with. Here's a tip, the world isn't The Daily Show. Blowing smoke to cover your willful ignorance dosn't impress me.

Quote:I don't know what fairy tales some of you folks have been reading,

Oh, so my obersvations are fairy tales, but you read a couple of articles from Salon, and you're expert? Pfft.

Quote: Gay or straight, we are all individuals.

Then why do you deny that some individuals benefit from homosexual recovery treatment? You're the one trying to make the generalizations about homosexuality. Which is it? You're trying to argue both ways.

Quote: You really need to step away from the "us vs. them, left vs. right" mentality and start seeing people as human beings.

Says the guy who bashes the humans who attend and operate Liberty.

Quote:Guess what... you're no better than anyone else,

So why are you on this forum criticizing others? Hypocrite.

I'm bashing those who practice naked bigotry and ignorance; not all Christians. I have many close friends and family members who believe in that mythology. They are also not bitter, angry moralistic finger-pointers who think they have all the answers because of their religion. You tell me the "homosexual lifestyle" - i'm sure the answer will be fascinating. Judging by the wingnut media that some of you folks absorb like bitter little sponges, I assume it goes something like this: "gays are all devoid of anything but self-interest, they can't have long-term relationships, they sleep around and are promiscuous, they are all drug addicts and are AIDS riddled, but they somehow have more money than the rest of us, etc, etc."

Meanwhile promiscuity among straight people in college is often seen as a rite of passage, lol. But innate prejudices are hard to overcome, and this notion of a "gay lifestyle" - as ridiculous as the idea of a "Straight lifestyle" - still holds meaning to the uninformed. Maybe you should actually try to figure out what the hell you are talking about before saddling up to a keyboard.

(12-27-2011 10:51 AM)mtsufan561 Wrote:  If it was so wonderful as you say, why, then, would nine major American healthcare organizations be so opposed to it? They include, for good measure, the American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy, the American Counseling Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the American Academy of Physician Assistants. Well, seems to me like they might know a little bit more than you about this whole issue.

They also all make lots of money off alternative treatments. Which, of course, does not affect their objectivity. Yeah, right.

Actually, I'm no fan of those "clinics." My point is more that on almost any issue, the most authoritative voices are also the least objective. At what point do we value knowledge more than objectivity and at what point do we value objectivity more.

The free market is both authoritative and objective.

(12-27-2011 10:51 AM)mtsufan561 Wrote:  I ask, do you actually know these facts?

No. That's been made abundantly clear.

(12-27-2011 10:48 AM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(12-27-2011 10:38 AM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  

(12-26-2011 11:34 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(12-26-2011 09:09 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  

(12-26-2011 08:20 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  LOL at people who think they know what God considers a "sin" and think they have the moral superiority to tell others how to live their lives.

IF, and that's the $1million question, you are a Christian, your moral compass/standard should be set by The Bible. Like it or not The Bible is reasonably clear on what is sin (there are some gray areas) and MOST Christians don't think they are morally superior, but try to remind people there is a moral compass and it does mean some personal restraint and accountability. Christian or other that's a major problem in the US, no one wants to be personally accountable any more, there's always an excuse.

Pretending you need an ancient mythology to tell you what to do and how to act and what is right or wrong is the exact opposite of personal accountability.

Wow!! And Christians are the ones with a sense of Moral Superiority. Doing what you want or what society says is okay IS the exact opposite of moral accountability. The secular saying "If it feels good do it" can lead to lots of things that will shorten your life and certainly won't do anything to help you with the after life. The "ancient mythology" as you state in Your sense of moral superiority will guide you to self restraint that certainly won't shorten your life and will definitely help you with the after life. If people are left to define what's right and wrong you get Jerry Sandusky.

Let me clue you in on something: have you ever heard of pedophile priests? I'm pretty sure they got some notion of "right and wrong" from the mythology they immersed themselves with. Of course, like many so-called Christians or adherents to other mythologies - they ignore these moral signposts that supposedly make up their religion when it suits them.

You are inventing strawmen. "If it feels good, do it". That's the attitude of all who reject religion? We need some dusty and garbled and completely incomprehensible book of folklore in order to tell us what we should do? Nope, sorry. There are plenty of agnostics and atheists who lead far more moral lives than many of the scumbag Christians out there. Ahh but they are not "real Christians" - - but who gets to make that definition? You? And anyway, like I said earlier, the Bible is as amorphous as a Rorschach test. How many different sects do we have, how many different divisions? Nobody can agree on what the Bible says or means, and yet we're supposed to use it as a guide for moral correctness No thanks.

Pedophiles first, priests second, many pedophiles figure out becoming a priest gives them complete unsupervised access to young childern. This not unlike the charity Jerry Sandusky founded to get the same access.

Sorry you can't understand The Bible, BUT you have such a high opinion of your intellect, I guess they don't teach you how to think at WVU. Good luck with defining your own moral standards, that's the road to no where.

(12-27-2011 11:06 AM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  Sorry you can't understand The Bible, BUT you have such a high opinion of your intellect, I guess they don't teach you how to think at WVU. Good luck with defining your own moral standards, that's the road to no where.

If your definition of "thinking" is being indoctrinated to one particular mythology out of the thousands that humans have invented over history, then by all means - have at it.