(03-03-2010 11:56 PM)Paul of Troy Wrote:  I want you to read that word genius. Tell me its definition.

I can list all the Christians that killed many people as well. Many more of them than you can Atheists...however what would that prove? Other than my original statement is still no less true.

Name them.

(03-03-2010 11:56 PM)Paul of Troy Wrote:  

(03-03-2010 11:54 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

(03-03-2010 11:49 PM)Paul of Troy Wrote:  You'll actually find that most of the people that fall into that category were very religious people.

Lenin was not religious. Stalin was not religious. Mao Tse Tung was not religious. Pol Pot was not religious. All of those "men", and I use that term loosely, looked down on religious people and they killed more people than any other civilization, people, or person in this world's history. (FACT CHECK)

Try again, Einstein. Hell, Hitler was a pauper compared to Stalin and Mao.

I want you to read that word genius. Tell me its definition.

I can list all the Christians that killed many people as well. Many more of them than you can Atheists...however what would that prove? Other than my original statement is still no less true.

Invariably, someone always says they can make a contrasting list... but they never do.

Someone will mention The Crusades. Not gonna fly. That was a late defensive measure after centuries of Muslim aggression. Argue false history if you must. The Inquisition? Compared to Mao minor. Actually quite minor anyway. Salem? A handful of people burned. No one is really going to compare that to Stalin, are they?

List the "most of the people that fall into that category were very religious people." And then show where Jesus's teachings were followed in any wrong that was done.

With the obvious exception of Islam, who else has followed their religions teachings and done mass evil?

(03-04-2010 08:43 AM)Paul M Wrote:  Invariably, someone always says they can make a contrasting list... but they never do.

Someone will mention The Crusades. Not gonna fly. That was a late defensive measure after centuries of Muslim aggression. Argue false history if you must. The Inquisition? Compared to Mao minor. Actually quite minor anyway. Salem? A handful of people burned. No one is really going to compare that to Stalin, are they?

List the "most of the people that fall into that category were very religious people." And then show where Jesus's teachings were followed in any wrong that was done.

With the obvious exception of Islam, who else has followed their religions teachings and done mass evil?

What is more interesting is cases where religion is somehow culpable in the massacres. Hitler was a flake, but he exploited underlying religious hatred in the Holocaust. Radovan Karadjic is already cited here. Sadaam Hussein was a thug, but he exploited religion in the midst of his extermination of Kurds (Aanfal ... (sp?)). The Turkish genocide/non-genocide of Armenians is among the larger recent cases as well. The Lord's Resistance Army is a prominent Christian rebel group with blood on its hands in an ongoing conflict. It is disingenuous to claim there is not an abundance of religious despots with blood on their hands or that nontheists with blood on their hands are not in fact responsible for the worst transgressions in terms of sheer numbers or that religious violence is not ongoing. To me, the interesting parts of all of this are that specific philosophies - prominently communism - and that specific combinations of conditions - poverty and ignorance, and I submit religious sentiments of intolerance - make these things more likely to occur in some cases regardless of who is in a leadership position (i.e. Stalin was most definitely an atheist, but I submit that oppression of Jews and Muslims under his rule was made worse due to long-standing religious intolerance of the White Russians).

(03-03-2010 11:47 PM)Paul of Troy Wrote:  

(03-03-2010 09:39 PM)NIU05 Wrote:  If anyone wants to read a defense of the New Testament from a historical or evidential perspective please read, "MORE THAN a CARPENTER" by Josh McDowell . It is a great, great read.

I've read that book and neither of those words describe the crap that is inside of it.

You get a + for reading it, as for your inflammatory comments with no reasoning posted....... If you have some reasons, I would like to hear them.

(03-03-2010 11:49 PM)Paul of Troy Wrote:  

(03-03-2010 10:03 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  What the chances that the knucklehead, Evolutionary psychologist Satoshi Kanazawa, is a liberal atheist?
How many of our dear mass murdering dictators were high IQ atheists, many.

You'll actually find that most of the people that fall into that category were very religious people.

If you're serious about this discussion, we'll find that the most successful mass murders were done for atheism, as others have already indicated.

Of course if you're including pagan religions, then you may include Rome, Assyria, Egypt and others in your perspective. I'm not sure that Christianity would cheer those on just because they're "religious."

But again, if you're serious about finding answers related to Christianity, you can look thru Vox Day's "The Irrational Atheist". He covers this subject and others.

(03-04-2010 08:20 AM)Rebel Wrote:  

(03-03-2010 11:56 PM)Paul of Troy Wrote:  I want you to read that word genius. Tell me its definition.

I can list all the Christians that killed many people as well. Many more of them than you can Atheists...however what would that prove? Other than my original statement is still no less true.

Name them.

http://markhumphrys.com/christianity.killings.html

There is a rough draft of sorts. It even has a convenient link to see the crazy ass history of Islam.

You know, it really isn't hard to find the truth if you actually want to find
it.

I'd also like to make the most important point of this argument...

No one ever kills in the name of Atheism.

"How Many Have Been Killed by Communists in the Name of Atheism & Secularism?:

None, probably. How can that be? After all, millions and millions of people died in Russia and China under communist governments — and those governments were both secular and atheistic. So weren't all of those people killed because of atheism — even in the name of atheism and secularism? No, that conclusion does not follow. Atheism itself isn't a principle, cause, philosophy, or belief system which people fight, die, or kill for. Being by an atheist is no more being killed in the name of atheism than being killed by a tall person is being killed in the name of tallness."

(03-04-2010 10:03 AM)Paul of Troy Wrote:  http://markhumphrys.com/christianity.killings.html

There is a rough draft of sorts. It even has a convenient link to see the crazy *** history of Islam.

You know, it really isn't hard to find the truth if you actually want to find
it.

I'd also like to make the most important point of this argument...

No one ever kills in the name of Atheism.

"How Many Have Been Killed by Communists in the Name of Atheism & Secularism?:

None, probably. How can that be? After all, millions and millions of people died in Russia and China under communist governments — and those governments were both secular and atheistic. So weren't all of those people killed because of atheism — even in the name of atheism and secularism? No, that conclusion does not follow. Atheism itself isn't a principle, cause, philosophy, or belief system which people fight, die, or kill for. Being by an atheist is no more being killed in the name of atheism than being killed by a tall person is being killed in the name of tallness."

You posted someone's opinion as proof that most mass murderers were Christian? That's all you have?

As for no one ever kills in the name of atheism, BULL ****.

Atheist dictators have murdered MILLIONS of people simply for following a religion. You can spin it all you want, it doesn't make it true. Atheists have killed due to their atheism and "superior" attitude you're trying to display here, and failing I might add.

(03-04-2010 10:03 AM)Paul of Troy Wrote:  No one ever kills in the name of Atheism.

"How Many Have Been Killed by Communists in the Name of Atheism & Secularism?:

I guess all those Christians and Hindus meeting in secret and hiding their Bibles are fictitious. Conform or be eliminated is a big part of communism, and no religion (atheism) is part of that conformity.

(03-04-2010 10:14 AM)Rebel Wrote:  

(03-04-2010 10:03 AM)Paul of Troy Wrote:  http://markhumphrys.com/christianity.killings.html

There is a rough draft of sorts. It even has a convenient link to see the crazy *** history of Islam.

You know, it really isn't hard to find the truth if you actually want to find
it.

I'd also like to make the most important point of this argument...

No one ever kills in the name of Atheism.

"How Many Have Been Killed by Communists in the Name of Atheism & Secularism?:

None, probably. How can that be? After all, millions and millions of people died in Russia and China under communist governments — and those governments were both secular and atheistic. So weren't all of those people killed because of atheism — even in the name of atheism and secularism? No, that conclusion does not follow. Atheism itself isn't a principle, cause, philosophy, or belief system which people fight, die, or kill for. Being by an atheist is no more being killed in the name of atheism than being killed by a tall person is being killed in the name of tallness."

You posted someone's opinion as proof that most mass murderers were Christian? That's all you have?

As for no one ever kills in the name of atheism, BULL ****.

Atheist dictators have murdered MILLIONS of people simply for following a religion. You can spin it all you want, it doesn't make it true. Atheists have killed due to their atheism and "superior" attitude you're trying to display here, and failing I might add. (2)

What? Those are all documented events. Are you crazy? Or just desperate?

It is IMPOSSIBLE to kill in the name of Atheism. It is not a religion or a belief. It is not a movement or a cause of any type. How do you suppose that is accomplished then? (I really hope you say what I think you will)

(2) You are one of the most childishly insulting people I've ever spoken with. Just like your peers on Fox News you twist and spin the facts to fit your own views before they are even acknowledged. A "preemptive strike" of falsities if you will. It is not only ridiculous in its practice, but clearly shows how you really are...only common morons are impressed by your aggressive push of false information and accusations.

(03-04-2010 10:23 AM)Paul of Troy Wrote:  It is IMPOSSIBLE to kill in the name of Atheism. It is not a religion or a belief. It is not a movement or a cause of any type. How do you suppose that is accomplished then? (I really hope you say what I think you will)

You cannot be f'n serious.

(03-04-2010 10:26 AM)Rebel Wrote:  

(03-04-2010 10:23 AM)Paul of Troy Wrote:  It is IMPOSSIBLE to kill in the name of Atheism. It is not a religion or a belief. It is not a movement or a cause of any type. How do you suppose that is accomplished then? (I really hope you say what I think you will)

You cannot be f'n serious.

This will be my last response since it is obvious you are spent.

It seems that you are unable to separate a 'disgust or hatred of religion' and Atheism. You do know that they do not go together correct? One can hate religion and be religious. I know many people who are deeply religious but hate organized religion.

I also happen to know two Atheists who go to church. Atheism does not require any type of feeling or attitude toward religion. Those who were religious were killed for being religious. (Which is awful) But they were not killed in the name of Atheism. It isn't possible.

Yes, I am quite serious because I have the ability to distinguish between what is true and what supports my views. (Unlike you)

Quote:Dr. David Barrett, editor of the massive World Christian Encyclopaedia, and author of Cosmos, Chaos and Gospel, and Our Globe and How To Reach It, has documented that Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin was responsible for killing over 40 million people. Joseph Stalin closed down over 48 000 churches, and attempted the liquidation of the entire Christian Church.

Similarly, communist dictator of China Mao Tse Tung launched the Great Proletariat Cultural Revolution, ”History’s most systematic attempt ever, by a single nation, to eradicate and destroy Christianity…” Mao was responsible for killing about 72 million people.

The communist takeover of Cambodia in 1975 resulted in the death of up to 3 million people - a full third of the total population. When we add to these the death toll of communist regimes in Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Afghanistan, Ethiopia, Angola, Mozambique, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Cuba, and Zimbabwe, the body count is staggering.

As Dostoevsky so eloquently put it: ”If God is dead, then all things are possible!”

The terrifying thing about secular humanist states is that there is no authority above the state to which one can make an appeal. The concept of ”inalienable rights” endowed by a Creator are of course impossible in a secular state. If the state itself is the highest authority, then there are no limits to the abuses and oppression that unrestrained human nature is capable of. The humanist state inevitably leads to tyranny and despotism.

http://www.christianaction.org.za/firear...killer.htm

They did it for atheism and secularism.

Deal with it. I'm not refuting deaths at the hands of Christians not following the actual teachings of Christ. I'm simply refuting your bull**** about "most mass murderers were religious".

(03-04-2010 10:36 AM)Paul of Troy Wrote:  This will be my last response since it is obvious you are spent.

It seems that you are unable to separate a 'disgust or hatred of religion' and Atheism. You do know that they do not go together correct? One can hate religion and be religious. I know many people who are deeply religious but hate organized religion.

I also happen to know two Atheists who go to church. Atheism does not require any type of feeling or attitude toward religion. Those who were religious were killed for being religious. (Which is awful) But they were not killed in the name of Atheism. It isn't possible.

Yes, I am quite serious because I have the ability to distinguish between what is true and what supports my views. (Unlike you)

Well, since you think you can just move the goal posts and simply infer, "well, we don't claim those atheists and they weren't doing it for atheism", I'll do the same.

"We don't claim those Christians. They did it with a warped view of Christianity."

Wow, that was easy. It was also intellectually dishonest.

You take the good with the bad with your "religion", or, lack thereof.

Deal with it.

It never ceases to amaze me how EMOTIONALLY invested someone can be in Atheism. A cause by its very definition is a belief that something doesn't exist. Tough to rally around nothing that is there.

(03-04-2010 10:42 AM)NIU05 Wrote:  It never ceases to amaze me how EMOTIONALLY invested someone can be in Atheism. A cause by its very definition is a belief that something doesn't exist. Tough to rally around nothing that is there.

More like hatred of Christianity. Every time there's a Christian-bashing thread or one about homosexuality, the elusive Paul shows up.

I have never had an opportunity to see the thoughts of so many atheists and agnostics before. I'd be really curious to get some of your thoughts on the Big Bang theory. (Really generic, wide open question, I know) As for me (A Christian man), I think it makes the most logical, scientific sense....

(03-04-2010 11:25 AM)ummechengr Wrote:  I have never had an opportunity to see the thoughts of so many atheists and agnostics before. I'd be really curious to get some of your thoughts on the Big Bang theory. (Really generic, wide open question, I know) As for me (A Christian man), I think it makes the most logical, scientific sense....

I think when you get back to very very small time periods after the Big Bang theory, it is the best explanation of the available observations. How the Big Bang came to occur is more speculative. There are multiverse theories out there along with its' proponents where people are more liable to ascribe to being taken due to the individuals' worldviews.

Unless you take a religious hard line indicating that it's been 2600 years wall clock time since all things were created, the big bang theory itself shouldn't really put anyone into a crisis of faith, IMHO. But, sometimes it's more fun to talk to people when it does...

(03-04-2010 12:47 PM)I45owl Wrote:  Unless you take a religious hard line indicating that it's been 2600 years wall clock time since all things were created, the big bang theory itself shouldn't really put anyone into a crisis of faith, IMHO. But, sometimes it's more fun to talk to people when it does...

2600 years? The Jews have been on Earth for 5000.

BTW, and I'm not trying to get into a religious argument with this one, what was here before a supposed big bang? Seriously? Was it just a void? This is something that's always puzzled me. Kinda like, and I don't care if you believe in God or not, if there's a God, where'd he come from? Who created him? When did everything begin? I know certain carbon datings say the planet is over 4 billion years old, but I can't understand the concept of a "starting" of all of this because what did everything start from?

(03-04-2010 01:07 PM)Rebel Wrote:  I can't understand the concept of a "starting" of all of this because what did everything start from?

If everyone is completely candid, I think that we all have the same response, even those who claim to know where "it" did all come from.

(03-04-2010 01:11 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(03-04-2010 01:07 PM)Rebel Wrote:  I can't understand the concept of a "starting" of all of this because what did everything start from?

If everyone is completely candid, I think that we all have the same response, even those who claim to know where "it" did all come from.

Is there an end to the universe? If so, what's on the other side? If it's, as some scholars suggest, a sort of Mobius strip, what's on the outside of the strip?


Damn, we need some weed.