(03-04-2010 10:03 AM)Paul of Troy Wrote:  http://markhumphrys.com/christianity.killings.html

There is a rough draft of sorts. It even has a convenient link to see the crazy *** history of Islam.

You know, it really isn't hard to find the truth if you actually want to find
it.

I'd also like to make the most important point of this argument...

No one ever kills in the name of Atheism.

"How Many Have Been Killed by Communists in the Name of Atheism & Secularism?:

None, probably. How can that be? After all, millions and millions of people died in Russia and China under communist governments — and those governments were both secular and atheistic. So weren't all of those people killed because of atheism — even in the name of atheism and secularism? No, that conclusion does not follow. Atheism itself isn't a principle, cause, philosophy, or belief system which people fight, die, or kill for. Being by an atheist is no more being killed in the name of atheism than being killed by a tall person is being killed in the name of tallness."

I don't know who Mark Humphreys is, but I do know he's an idiot. Quoting an "authority" who is an idiot, doesn't change that. His tallness analogy is so flawed, so patently absurd, that I genuinely shocked anyone would cut and paste it.

I posted this a couple of years ago. If you look at a picture of the known universe it takes on an hour glass shape. I always had the problem of something coming from nothing. I was watching NOVA and they had a series on expansion and contraction of the universe. What the group of scientists brought up was the theory of waves and strings. The Big Bang was just the end of the contraction cycle. No end or beginning just matter and time expanding and contracting like a wave.

What if the universe is in a box in the pocket of person, a size unfathomable, of another race? Whoa, what if the universe is actually confined in some sort of celestial snow globe sitting on someone's mantle?

I just blew my mind. Dude.

(03-04-2010 01:07 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

(03-04-2010 12:47 PM)I45owl Wrote:  Unless you take a religious hard line indicating that it's been 2600 years wall clock time since all things were created, the big bang theory itself shouldn't really put anyone into a crisis of faith, IMHO. But, sometimes it's more fun to talk to people when it does...

2600 years? The Jews have been on Earth for 5000.

BTW, and I'm not trying to get into a religious argument with this one, what was here before a supposed big bang? Seriously? Was it just a void? This is something that's always puzzled me. Kinda like, and I don't care if you believe in God or not, if there's a God, where'd he come from? Who created him? When did everything begin? I know certain carbon datings say the planet is over 4 billion years old, but I can't understand the concept of a "starting" of all of this because what did everything start from?

2009-2010 = 5770 to be exact.

(03-04-2010 01:48 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I posted this a couple of years ago. If you look at a picture of the known universe it takes on an hour glass shape. I always had the problem of something coming from nothing. I was watching NOVA and they had a series on expansion and contraction of the universe. What the group of scientists brought up was the theory of waves and strings. The Big Bang was just the end of the contraction cycle. No end or beginning just matter and time expanding and contracting like a wave.

That still doesn't answer the question.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_regress

(03-04-2010 03:20 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(03-04-2010 01:48 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I posted this a couple of years ago. If you look at a picture of the known universe it takes on an hour glass shape. I always had the problem of something coming from nothing. I was watching NOVA and they had a series on expansion and contraction of the universe. What the group of scientists brought up was the theory of waves and strings. The Big Bang was just the end of the contraction cycle. No end or beginning just matter and time expanding and contracting like a wave.

That still doesn't answer the question.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_regress

Not sure how they could ever figure out what happened before the Big Bang. There had to be something, IMO. Some theorize an endless universe, some propose that our universe is just one of many.

I need a drink. Boy, this thread totally digressed. Interesting topic for speculation though.

Digression is when *niner* gets into a pi$$ing match with [generic liberal].

This thread has regressed into something at least interesting.

(03-03-2010 09:29 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  Are there lies wherein my philosophical disagreement with religion.

What about the billions of people who aren't Christian? Are they excluded perhaps because their parents raised them Budhist? What about the Muslims in Saudia Arabia, who never even have a chance to convert? What about the millions upon millions of people who were born prior to Christ? What about the millions upon millons of people who were born after Christ, but never heard his name? What about children who die before they understand a choice of relegion?

And most importantly, what about those true believers who commit heinous crimes in the name of religion, or even heinous crimes not in the name of religion.

The answer can't just be "God works in mysterious ways," can it?

You certainly see the issue here, and I know you don't have the answer.

No I don't personally either... but religious scholars do. It's been explained to me because I asked the same questions. It's in Revelations about the end of days... but I can't remember many specifics. Basically, there is a "process" for most of these examples that will come at the end of days. They didn't know about heaven, so they aren't really missing anything right now... As to children, most religions believe children are pure... even the "bad" ones... not old enough to know right from wrong... It's why many churches wait until kids are older for them to "join". Old enough to make a concious decision. As to what happened before Jesus, the rules were different.

Old testament was a vengeful God... Time of Moses was an "equitable" God (eye for an eye)... Jesus was the merciful God who opened up heaven.

(03-03-2010 12:09 PM)I45owl Wrote:  The second problem is that for the second item - what if the god in question is not "good". Even if the Christian description of God were true, I do not thing it is a god that I would praise.

Then you don't believe in God.
Not saying you don't believe in a "higher power"... just that if he's not good and worthy of your praise, there is no heaven and vice versa.



As an aside to "killed in the name of religion".

I'll get the details wrong, but the guy who shot Reagan did so "in the name of" Jody Foster... That wasn't Jody's fault... but the result of a crazy person. Son of Sam killed people in the name of his Dog... so should hwe condemn the dog? My point being, Jesus didn't preach going to war at any time against any one. People doing so "in his name" do not do it with his blessing... so why do we condemn "Christianity", when the problem is misguided people? The interesting part about the athiests and agnostics debating the bible is that they don't get what it means... at least to Christians, and then blame Christians for the acts of bad (or at least "against Christianity") men. The inquisition was about power... not religion. Most atrocities were commited by people trying to eliminate (a) religion. While that was true of the old testament, that wasn't true of Christianity. They may have claimed divine direction or whatever, but that is no more a condemnation of religion than Son of Sam was a condemnation of dogs.

Too lazy to quote so I'll just paraphrase.

"where is our proof of no good".
First off, burden of proof lies with those making the claim. You can't prove a negative. Prove that I don't have an invisible unicorn/dragon/ect in my room. You can't? well, that must prove it exists!

"Pascals wager". Sure, it may seem like a 50/50, until you take into account other things. How about gods that came before the abrahamic god(s), (plural for the different flavors). Do you pray to thor? or some of the other greek gods? Or gods that came prior to the abrahamic god. Would you feel the same if you were brought up in another country by another religion? No, you'd have your own 'pascals wager' for religion #522301, were if we were 'wrong' about that religions god, we could goto 'hell'.

"Mass murderers who were atheists"
Okay, they didnt murder FOR atheism, they were just murderers who were atheist.

Quote: There are mass murderers of all religious persuasions, as well mass murderers who follow no religion at all. The existence of atheist dictators (Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot are valid examples if I'm not mistaken), does nothing to undercut the argument that religion is baseless and harmful to society.

The problem with Christian abortion clinic bombers and Islamist suicide bombers is that those people carry out these acts because they're religious. In the case of the aforementioned communist dictators, their atheism is really secondary and not related to the horrendous acts they committed. More importantly, even if you showed me a million examples of atheists who were also mass murders, that does not change the fact that religion is absolutely baseless and unfounded.

"god" of the bible, is estimated to of killed ~33mil.

Quote:"The Crusades slaughtered millions in the name of Jesus. The Inquisition brought the torture and murder of millions more. After Martin Luther, Christians did bloody battle with other Christians for another three centuries."

Quote:Atheism itself isn’t a principle, cause, philosophy, or belief system which people fight, die, or kill for. Being killed by an atheist is no more being killed in the name of atheism than being killed by a tall person is being killed in the name of tallness.

People were killed in communist nations for a lot of different reasons. Some were communists who disagreed with those in power and were killed because of that. Some were anti-communists opposed the government and were killed for that. Some were simply in the way or inconvenient and were killed for that. These are political disagreements that people were being killed over, not murder in the name of atheism.

But weren’t a lot of people killed because they were Christian? Certainly — but not simply because they were Christian. Communists typically regarded religious organizations as a hinderance towards the creation of a worker’s paradise. Some religious groups also opposed the communists. Once again, we are generally looking at political issues, not a question of atheism.


Even if some people were killed simply because they followed a religion, it does not follow that they were killed in the name of atheism. Why? Because atheism is not inherently opposed to religion: it is possible to be both an atheist and religious and some religions are themselves atheistic. Atheism also isn’t a belief system or ideology which can, by itself, inspire people to do things — good or bad.

To understand this better, consider times in the past when religion has been involved with violence — the Inquisition would be good. How many people were killed during the Inquisition in the name of theism? None. Those doing the killing acted not because of theism, but rather because of Christian doctrines. The belief system is what inspired people to act (sometimes for good, sometimes for ill). The single belief of theism, however, did not.

Similarly, communism certainly inspired people to act and gave them motivations to do certain things, but atheism — which is the absence of a belief and not even a belief itself — did not. The assumption that people in Russia and China were killed merely on account of atheism is based upon two other myths: first, that atheism is itself some sort of philosophy or belief system which can motivate people, and second that atheism is somehow interchangeable with the actual belief system of communism. It also pretends that all the various elements of communist totalitarianism were irrelevant to what happened — which is utter nonsense.

"something about atheists emotions/hating god 'that doesn't exist'"
I cant speak for all atheists, but a lot don't like what religion is doing to people/country. If I was an atheists in another country and saw people who were harming others b/c "God told them too", you're damn right I'll be emotional about it. There are some people who use their religion to be bigots and hateful. There are others who use it to 'do good'. Do you all like watching muslim women get beat b/c it is acceptable to their 'god'? maybe, maybe not. Do I like people who harm gay people because their 'christian god' says it's "okay" to hate gay people, no. But they use 'god' as a way to harm others. If you wanted to believe in an invisible pink unicorn, go ahead, but once that pink unicorn starts telling you to 'harm others' or interfere with other peoples lives, then I have a problem with it.

Speaking of gay people, that guy in cali who was caught DUI supposedly coming from a gay bar. I feel bad for him, he probably spent him whole life feeling that the feelings he has causes him to be "evil". And rather than be able to express his feelings he has to hide them. Chances are the people that he rallied with with no longer talk to him because he's "gay". Which is just sad.


article in general

Yeah one of flame boys links mentioned some of it pretty well (i just glanced). 6 points isn't ****.
But, there is a statistic that goes something like this:
Generally, the more religious a state is the more impoverished it is, and the higher crime rate. Now, I don't know what causes what. Here's a nice graph (stat info at the bottom) http://i.imgur.com/eL6Eg.png

Atheism is, as some would describe it, a luxury.



Alright I lied, ima quote.
"If God is dead, then all things are possible"
Yea he never said it.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/f...tesi1.html

Quote:"god" of the bible, is estimated to of killed ~33mil.

So he's about 50+ million behind only two dudes who were atheists.

BTW, I'd like to know where that estimate comes from. When God demanded killing, and killed himself, in the Old Testament days, there were no where NEAR 33 million on this entire planet.

(03-04-2010 09:37 PM)faet Wrote:  

Quote:"The Crusades slaughtered millions in the name of Jesus. The Inquisition brought the torture and murder of millions more. After Martin Luther, Christians did bloody battle with other Christians for another three centuries."

More ignorance. This is all history. Not that hard to read up on.

The Crusades were defensive. 2000 to 5000 were killed during the Inquisitions.

(03-04-2010 09:47 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

Quote:"god" of the bible, is estimated to of killed ~33mil.

So he's about 50+ million behind only two dudes who were atheists.

BTW, I'd like to know where that estimate comes from. When God demanded killing, and killed himself, in the Old Testament days, there were no where NEAR 33 million on this entire planet.

More importantly, all that vengence stopped with Jesus opening the gates of heaven. It's fine if one chooses not to believe... but let's not act like "Christians" were EVER told by their God to kill.

(03-04-2010 10:11 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(03-04-2010 09:37 PM)faet Wrote:  

Quote:"The Crusades slaughtered millions in the name of Jesus. The Inquisition brought the torture and murder of millions more. After Martin Luther, Christians did bloody battle with other Christians for another three centuries."

More ignorance. This is all history. Not that hard to read up on.

The Crusades were defensive. 2000 to 5000 were killed during the Inquisitions.

I'm really tired of this athiests argument.

Show me where the New Testament says "go and kill the infidels"... just because men CLAIMED to be doing something in the name of God doesn't mean that God actually asked them to. There is ZERO evidence to suggest that Jesus would have approved. He VERY clearly said... you WERE told... but I tell you NOW... He never said kill abortion doctors... he never said kill muslims... MEN did these things and in order to justify their desires, claimed divine "inspiration". You athiests simply latch onto that as "proof" of something... yet all it is proof of is an attempt to shift the blame away from the actor and give the actor power.

How often do you see a guy with a sign... need food, Vietnam Vet... starving family etc. Is it true?? You don't know... but the guy is clearly appealing to your greater sense of humanity, no?? your morals... your faith?? because they USUALLY also say "God Bless You".

(03-04-2010 07:06 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  As to what happened before Jesus, the rules were different.

Old testament was a vengeful God... Time of Moses was an "equitable" God (eye for an eye)... Jesus was the merciful God who opened up heaven.

(03-03-2010 12:09 PM)I45owl Wrote:  The second problem is that for the second item - what if the god in question is not "good". Even if the Christian description of God were true, I do not thing it is a god that I would praise.

Then you don't believe in God.
Not saying you don't believe in a "higher power"... just that if he's not good and worthy of your praise, there is no heaven and vice versa.

Well, if the first guy that you describe is as you say, why is it not a fair question to ask whether the god is an evil god or a good god? Or, whether it is a moral god or an immoral god? (avoid the inclination to use tautology with the use of "good" and "moral").

The second guy sounds a bit more like a cosmic policeman. And the third guy sounds a bit more cool.

Wait, if we're talking about the same god, then how come he changes depending on who is narrating the myth? (I'm familiar enough with Bible study to understand the arguments... I'm just posing the question for rhetorical effect).

(03-04-2010 07:06 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  As an aside to "killed in the name of religion".

I'll get the details wrong, but the guy who shot Reagan did so "in the name of" Jody Foster... That wasn't Jody's fault... but the result of a crazy person.

(03-04-2010 11:18 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(03-04-2010 09:47 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

Quote:"god" of the bible, is estimated to of killed ~33mil.

So he's about 50+ million behind only two dudes who were atheists.

BTW, I'd like to know where that estimate comes from. When God demanded killing, and killed himself, in the Old Testament days, there were no where NEAR 33 million on this entire planet.

More importantly, all that vengence stopped with Jesus opening the gates of heaven. It's fine if one chooses not to believe... but let's not act like "Christians" were EVER told by their God to kill.

(03-04-2010 10:11 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(03-04-2010 09:37 PM)faet Wrote:  

Quote:"The Crusades slaughtered millions in the name of Jesus. The Inquisition brought the torture and murder of millions more. After Martin Luther, Christians did bloody battle with other Christians for another three centuries."

More ignorance. This is all history. Not that hard to read up on.

The Crusades were defensive. 2000 to 5000 were killed during the Inquisitions.

I'm really tired of this athiests argument.

Show me where the New Testament says "go and kill the infidels"... just because men CLAIMED to be doing something in the name of God doesn't mean that God actually asked them to. There is ZERO evidence to suggest that Jesus would have approved. He VERY clearly said... you WERE told... but I tell you NOW... He never said kill abortion doctors... he never said kill muslims... MEN did these things and in order to justify their desires, claimed divine "inspiration". You athiests simply latch onto that as "proof" of something... yet all it is proof of is an attempt to shift the blame away from the actor and give the actor power.

Whether or not Christians did kill with approval of Jesus or God is really immaterial to atheists. It's whether they killed because they believed in the religion. Mafia certainly "know" they will go to hell if the myths are true, but it doesn't stop them from doing evil things all the while being good members of the church. What is to say that someone like Radovan Karadjic didn't "know" he'd incur the wrath of god by engaging in genocide in his holy war, but did so because of a utilitarian calculation that he thought he'd preserve a Christian nation for his kids and grandkids.

There is ample incitement to violence in the Bible. It doesn't matter what you (because I don't expect you to go on a killing spree anytime soon) or I think about whether the old testament is in play or not - it only matters whether those that do go on killing sprees perceive it as justification. The fact is that the Bible is a cafeteria menu for the various Christian sects to pick and choose what they believe is relevant. The Kuran, I believe, is a more cohesive text, even if also incoherent.

While the main topic has broken off into different sub-branches, I think one conclusion is that "high IQ" does not necessary mean the person possessing such IQ is "good". Many of your most corrupt politicians, seedy CEOs, and thuggish leaders we can think of through history are likely to be highly educated.

Loose cannons from the Unabomber to the guy who shot at Pentagon guards this morning were college degreed.

So maybe the average of all liberals would score a little higher on their SATs than the average of all conservatives. Or non-church goers versus church goers. Or whatever. But it's irrelevant. The 9-11 masterminds were probably more booksmart than your average Indiana farmer.

Education is important, but is not always a determinant of character.

(03-04-2010 01:48 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I posted this a couple of years ago. If you look at a picture of the known universe it takes on an hour glass shape. I always had the problem of something coming from nothing. I was watching NOVA and they had a series on expansion and contraction of the universe. What the group of scientists brought up was the theory of waves and strings. The Big Bang was just the end of the contraction cycle. No end or beginning just matter and time expanding and contracting like a wave.

I watched this one show where they talked about mulitple universes that sit side-by-side like bubbles. When bubbles "scrape" against each other, matter from one universe bursts into the other one (i.e. Big Bang). Or something like that. I'm not sure I'm on board with the multiple universes/11 dimensions theory, but it's all interesting and it bends the mind.

The universe is expanding. Yet Gravity at it's core is supposed to attract mass. The universal wave theory binds it. Expansion............ contraction................ Yin and Yang......................Light Dark. Scale inside evryone's soul Jacob Esau..................... Jack Sawyer........................... Yeah I just pulled Lost into the conversation

Human behavior and thus the choices we make are determined by our genetic make-up and our environment; both of which are out of our control. In the absence of Free Will, the moral indignation against the Christian Crusades, for example, is based on what then exactly?

(03-02-2010 09:48 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I've always liked the Pascal's Wager approach, formulated (but perhaps not first) by Blaise Pascal, French mathematician and philosopher.

There are two possibilities with God--He exists or He doesn't.
There are two possibilities for you--you believe that He exists or you don't.

If you believe God exists, and He does exist, fine and dandy.
If you believe God exists, and He doesn't exist, you're wrong but not really hurt.
If you believe God does not exist, and He doesn't exist, again, fine and dandy.
But what if you believe God does not exist, and He does exist? Now you have a big problem.

Now given that there's only one really bad bet, and given that I can't prove that God exists and you can't prove that He doesn't, what is the smart bet?

The only way to prove there is no God is to be able to be in all places at all times, and be able to say that He is not there.

However, having the ability to be in all places at all times, requires you to be both omniscient, and omnipotent...

...which of course, make you god.

(03-04-2010 01:13 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

(03-04-2010 01:11 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(03-04-2010 01:07 PM)Rebel Wrote:  I can't understand the concept of a "starting" of all of this because what did everything start from?

If everyone is completely candid, I think that we all have the same response, even those who claim to know where "it" did all come from.

Is there an end to the universe? If so, what's on the other side? If it's, as some scholars suggest, a sort of Mobius strip, what's on the outside of the strip?


Damn, we need some weed.

The concept of God requires extra dimensions.

If I lived in two dimensions, my reality would be confined to forward-backward, and side-to-side. I would not be able to perceive depth-height. I wouldn't be able to grasp what tall is at all. The best definition I'd have for it is that it was somewhat like forward, but in a different direction.

If I had cancer in my two dimensional body, I wouldn't be able to understand how it was removed by a three dimensional being who looked "down" on it, and plucked it out of me, without entering my two dimensional space, and cutting through my body to remove it. This simple act of plucking out my cancer in a three-dimensional manner, would be utterly miraculous to my two-dimensional perception.

Part of our space-time three dimensional universe, requires time to move linerally from past through present, to future. However, time is just as much a constraint/limitation within three dimensions, as height is within two.

(03-05-2010 10:35 AM)Motown Bronco Wrote:  I watched this one show where they talked about mulitple universes that sit side-by-side like bubbles. When bubbles "scrape" against each other, matter from one universe bursts into the other one (i.e. Big Bang). Or something like that. I'm not sure I'm on board with the multiple universes/11 dimensions theory, but it's all interesting and it bends the mind.

This is the multiverse theory - at least one of the more prominent ones.

(03-05-2010 11:28 AM)G-Man Wrote:  The only way to prove there is no God is to be able to be in all places at all times, and be able to say that He is not there.

However, having the ability to be in all places at all times, requires you to be both omniscient, and omnipotent...

...which of course, make you god.

In my experience, everywhere I go, there I am. Draw your own conclusions.