(08-01-2022 02:41 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:39 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:25 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  You have to remember this is the PAC. They will be performing due academic diligence on all the candidates.

Aside from the research level the budget is very important.

Colorado State (1.5 billion)
Hawaii (1 billion)
SDSU (936.7 mil)-2018 number
Boise St (516 mil)-2018 number
UNLV (333.7 mil)
Fresno (286.5 mil)-2017 number
Gonzaga (269.5 mil)-2019 number.

The PAC could very well add Colorado State on the basis of academics alone.

Fresno is behind both Boise/UNLV in this discussion. They have bigger markets. UNLV with Las Vegas and Boise can claim the whole state of Idaho. They have bigger budgets and are legit mid tier research schools. They have bigger operating budget. Lastly but not least they aren't under the thumb of Cal and Stanford as in state CSU schools all are.

If Boise & SDSU have been the top AAC candidates for a decade and near the top of the list for XII I don't see how Fresno has leapfrogged them for a PAC invite.

If the PAC doesn't think Boise's academics cut it you'll see something like Colorado St or Hawaii as an alternative. You won't see UNLV and Fresno ahead of Boise for academic reasons.

Gonzaga is flat out not a PAC level institution. They would be ok for the MWC or G5 league.

Actually, I'm quite surprised that Gonzaga's research was that high considering its size. On a per capita basis considering its size, it's actually the best out of that entire group except for Colorado State. (Note that this is how the AAU evaluates research figures as opposed to sheer total dollars. It rightfully accounts for the different sizes of institutions.) Gonzaga is already clearly the highest for all of them for undergrad in the US News rankings. It's also the most notable sports brand (albeit not for football).

On the flip side, that UNLV figure is shockingly low to me considering it's directly in a major metro area and has a medical school.

Those are the budget numbers Frank not the research numbers.

Gonzaga does basically no research at all.

Ok - that makes more sense.

Still, even in the purview of operating budget, Gonzaga's number would be higher than everyone other than Colorado State taking into account its size, whereas UNLV and Fresno State have barely any budget by comparison.

Honestly, I think Gonzaga or a school like, say, SMU is less of a harder sell on an academic basis to the current Pac-12 than anyone here other than San Diego State (and even there, the academics might still be an issue, but it's a triage situation where the league MUST have a presence in Southern California).

(08-01-2022 02:39 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:32 PM)Aztecgolfer Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:25 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  You have to remember this is the PAC. They will be performing due academic diligence on all the candidates.

Aside from the research level the budget is very important.

Colorado State (1.5 billion)
Hawaii (1 billion)
SDSU (936.7 mil)-2018 number
Boise St (516 mil)-2018 number
UNLV (333.7 mil)
Fresno (286.5 mil)-2017 number
Gonzaga (269.5 mil)-2019 number.

The PAC could very well add Colorado State on the basis of academics alone.

Fresno is behind both Boise/UNLV in this discussion. They have bigger markets. UNLV with Las Vegas and Boise can claim the whole state of Idaho. They have bigger budgets and are legit mid tier research schools. They have bigger operating budget. Lastly but not least they aren't under the thumb of Cal and Stanford as in state CSU schools all are.

If Boise & SDSU have been the top AAC candidates for a decade and near the top of the list for XII I don't see how Fresno has leapfrogged them for a PAC invite.

If the PAC doesn't think Boise's academics cut it you'll see something like Colorado St or Hawaii as an alternative. You won't see UNLV and Fresno ahead of Boise for academic reasons.

Gonzaga is flat out not a PAC level institution. They would be ok for the MWC or G5 league.

Kliavkoff said this was the criteria for expansion in this order:

1. Media Market
2. Athletic Success
3. Academic/Cultural Fit
4. Geography

SDSU for the most part fits all the categories.

The may give Colorado St a bone because of academics and Boise a bone because of its FB program.

I'm not seeing where Fresno offers anything, at least at this stage.

But, the PAC already has a school in Colorado.

(08-01-2022 02:49 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:41 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:39 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:25 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  You have to remember this is the PAC. They will be performing due academic diligence on all the candidates.

Aside from the research level the budget is very important.

Colorado State (1.5 billion)
Hawaii (1 billion)
SDSU (936.7 mil)-2018 number
Boise St (516 mil)-2018 number
UNLV (333.7 mil)
Fresno (286.5 mil)-2017 number
Gonzaga (269.5 mil)-2019 number.

The PAC could very well add Colorado State on the basis of academics alone.

Fresno is behind both Boise/UNLV in this discussion. They have bigger markets. UNLV with Las Vegas and Boise can claim the whole state of Idaho. They have bigger budgets and are legit mid tier research schools. They have bigger operating budget. Lastly but not least they aren't under the thumb of Cal and Stanford as in state CSU schools all are.

If Boise & SDSU have been the top AAC candidates for a decade and near the top of the list for XII I don't see how Fresno has leapfrogged them for a PAC invite.

If the PAC doesn't think Boise's academics cut it you'll see something like Colorado St or Hawaii as an alternative. You won't see UNLV and Fresno ahead of Boise for academic reasons.

Gonzaga is flat out not a PAC level institution. They would be ok for the MWC or G5 league.

Actually, I'm quite surprised that Gonzaga's research was that high considering its size. On a per capita basis considering its size, it's actually the best out of that entire group except for Colorado State. (Note that this is how the AAU evaluates research figures as opposed to sheer total dollars. It rightfully accounts for the different sizes of institutions.) Gonzaga is already clearly the highest for all of them for undergrad in the US News rankings. It's also the most notable sports brand (albeit not for football).

On the flip side, that UNLV figure is shockingly low to me considering it's directly in a major metro area and has a medical school.

Those are the budget numbers Frank not the research numbers.

Gonzaga does basically no research at all.

Ok - that makes more sense.

Still, even in the purview of operating budget, Gonzaga's number would be higher than everyone other than Colorado State taking into account its size, whereas UNLV and Fresno State have barely any budget by comparison.

Honestly, I think Gonzaga or a school like, say, SMU is less of a harder sell on an academic basis to the current Pac-12 than anyone here other than San Diego State (and even there, the academics might still be an issue, but it's a triage situation where the league MUST have a presence in Southern California).

Because Gonzaga is a private school Frank? Gonzaga's budget is significant enough where I could see them in the MWC but its not a PAC level addition.

While we are at it the research numbers for the above group.

65. Colorado State 407.3 million
91. Hawaii 275.9 million
162. UNLV 105.9 million
165. SDSU 97.7 million
214. Boise St 43.3 million
216. SMU 43.1 million
352. Fresno 8.9 million
754. Gonzaga 0.5 million

https://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/profiles/site?...ce&ds=herd

Gonzaga only does 500k in research. Boston College by comparison is ranked 186 and does $63 million. Historically BC is a Top 40-60 school. Gonzaga historically a regional mid tier private. I just don't see a PAC level profile and they don't bring a market either.

SMU is plenty regarded to be in the PAC. Boise State would be marginal but is on the way up just like when the PAC brought in Arizona St forty years ago.

(08-01-2022 02:49 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:41 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:39 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:25 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  You have to remember this is the PAC. They will be performing due academic diligence on all the candidates.

Aside from the research level the budget is very important.

Colorado State (1.5 billion)
Hawaii (1 billion)
SDSU (936.7 mil)-2018 number
Boise St (516 mil)-2018 number
UNLV (333.7 mil)
Fresno (286.5 mil)-2017 number
Gonzaga (269.5 mil)-2019 number.

The PAC could very well add Colorado State on the basis of academics alone.

Fresno is behind both Boise/UNLV in this discussion. They have bigger markets. UNLV with Las Vegas and Boise can claim the whole state of Idaho. They have bigger budgets and are legit mid tier research schools. They have bigger operating budget. Lastly but not least they aren't under the thumb of Cal and Stanford as in state CSU schools all are.

If Boise & SDSU have been the top AAC candidates for a decade and near the top of the list for XII I don't see how Fresno has leapfrogged them for a PAC invite.

If the PAC doesn't think Boise's academics cut it you'll see something like Colorado St or Hawaii as an alternative. You won't see UNLV and Fresno ahead of Boise for academic reasons.

Gonzaga is flat out not a PAC level institution. They would be ok for the MWC or G5 league.

Actually, I'm quite surprised that Gonzaga's research was that high considering its size. On a per capita basis considering its size, it's actually the best out of that entire group except for Colorado State. (Note that this is how the AAU evaluates research figures as opposed to sheer total dollars. It rightfully accounts for the different sizes of institutions.) Gonzaga is already clearly the highest for all of them for undergrad in the US News rankings. It's also the most notable sports brand (albeit not for football).

On the flip side, that UNLV figure is shockingly low to me considering it's directly in a major metro area and has a medical school.

Those are the budget numbers Frank not the research numbers.

Gonzaga does basically no research at all.

Ok - that makes more sense.

Still, even in the purview of operating budget, Gonzaga's number would be higher than everyone other than Colorado State taking into account its size, whereas UNLV and Fresno State have barely any budget by comparison.

Honestly, I think Gonzaga or a school like, say, SMU is less of a harder sell on an academic basis to the current Pac-12 than anyone here other than San Diego State (and even there, the academics might still be an issue, but it's a triage situation where the league MUST have a presence in Southern California).

SDSU will have R1 status by 2025. That has been their goal and they have been achieving their milestones. Part of the reason for expanding their campus into Mission Valley was to further increase their research capabilities with cooperation between public and private institutions.

(08-01-2022 03:12 PM)Aztecgolfer Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:39 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:32 PM)Aztecgolfer Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:25 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  You have to remember this is the PAC. They will be performing due academic diligence on all the candidates.

Aside from the research level the budget is very important.

Colorado State (1.5 billion)
Hawaii (1 billion)
SDSU (936.7 mil)-2018 number
Boise St (516 mil)-2018 number
UNLV (333.7 mil)
Fresno (286.5 mil)-2017 number
Gonzaga (269.5 mil)-2019 number.

The PAC could very well add Colorado State on the basis of academics alone.

Fresno is behind both Boise/UNLV in this discussion. They have bigger markets. UNLV with Las Vegas and Boise can claim the whole state of Idaho. They have bigger budgets and are legit mid tier research schools. They have bigger operating budget. Lastly but not least they aren't under the thumb of Cal and Stanford as in state CSU schools all are.

If Boise & SDSU have been the top AAC candidates for a decade and near the top of the list for XII I don't see how Fresno has leapfrogged them for a PAC invite.

If the PAC doesn't think Boise's academics cut it you'll see something like Colorado St or Hawaii as an alternative. You won't see UNLV and Fresno ahead of Boise for academic reasons.

Gonzaga is flat out not a PAC level institution. They would be ok for the MWC or G5 league.

Kliavkoff said this was the criteria for expansion in this order:

1. Media Market
2. Athletic Success
3. Academic/Cultural Fit
4. Geography

SDSU for the most part fits all the categories.

The may give Colorado St a bone because of academics and Boise a bone because of its FB program.

I'm not seeing where Fresno offers anything, at least at this stage.

But, the PAC already has a school in Colorado.

Colorado State ONLY gets in if going on the basis of academics which is what I was trying to say.

(08-01-2022 03:18 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 03:12 PM)Aztecgolfer Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:39 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:32 PM)Aztecgolfer Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:25 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  You have to remember this is the PAC. They will be performing due academic diligence on all the candidates.

Aside from the research level the budget is very important.

Colorado State (1.5 billion)
Hawaii (1 billion)
SDSU (936.7 mil)-2018 number
Boise St (516 mil)-2018 number
UNLV (333.7 mil)
Fresno (286.5 mil)-2017 number
Gonzaga (269.5 mil)-2019 number.

The PAC could very well add Colorado State on the basis of academics alone.

Fresno is behind both Boise/UNLV in this discussion. They have bigger markets. UNLV with Las Vegas and Boise can claim the whole state of Idaho. They have bigger budgets and are legit mid tier research schools. They have bigger operating budget. Lastly but not least they aren't under the thumb of Cal and Stanford as in state CSU schools all are.

If Boise & SDSU have been the top AAC candidates for a decade and near the top of the list for XII I don't see how Fresno has leapfrogged them for a PAC invite.

If the PAC doesn't think Boise's academics cut it you'll see something like Colorado St or Hawaii as an alternative. You won't see UNLV and Fresno ahead of Boise for academic reasons.

Gonzaga is flat out not a PAC level institution. They would be ok for the MWC or G5 league.

Kliavkoff said this was the criteria for expansion in this order:

1. Media Market
2. Athletic Success
3. Academic/Cultural Fit
4. Geography

SDSU for the most part fits all the categories.

The may give Colorado St a bone because of academics and Boise a bone because of its FB program.

I'm not seeing where Fresno offers anything, at least at this stage.

But, the PAC already has a school in Colorado.

Colorado State ONLY gets in if going on the basis of academics which is what I was trying to say.

Or, if Colorado goes to the Big-12.

(08-01-2022 03:17 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:49 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:41 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:39 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:25 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  You have to remember this is the PAC. They will be performing due academic diligence on all the candidates.

Aside from the research level the budget is very important.

Colorado State (1.5 billion)
Hawaii (1 billion)
SDSU (936.7 mil)-2018 number
Boise St (516 mil)-2018 number
UNLV (333.7 mil)
Fresno (286.5 mil)-2017 number
Gonzaga (269.5 mil)-2019 number.

The PAC could very well add Colorado State on the basis of academics alone.

Fresno is behind both Boise/UNLV in this discussion. They have bigger markets. UNLV with Las Vegas and Boise can claim the whole state of Idaho. They have bigger budgets and are legit mid tier research schools. They have bigger operating budget. Lastly but not least they aren't under the thumb of Cal and Stanford as in state CSU schools all are.

If Boise & SDSU have been the top AAC candidates for a decade and near the top of the list for XII I don't see how Fresno has leapfrogged them for a PAC invite.

If the PAC doesn't think Boise's academics cut it you'll see something like Colorado St or Hawaii as an alternative. You won't see UNLV and Fresno ahead of Boise for academic reasons.

Gonzaga is flat out not a PAC level institution. They would be ok for the MWC or G5 league.

Actually, I'm quite surprised that Gonzaga's research was that high considering its size. On a per capita basis considering its size, it's actually the best out of that entire group except for Colorado State. (Note that this is how the AAU evaluates research figures as opposed to sheer total dollars. It rightfully accounts for the different sizes of institutions.) Gonzaga is already clearly the highest for all of them for undergrad in the US News rankings. It's also the most notable sports brand (albeit not for football).

On the flip side, that UNLV figure is shockingly low to me considering it's directly in a major metro area and has a medical school.

Those are the budget numbers Frank not the research numbers.

Gonzaga does basically no research at all.

Ok - that makes more sense.

Still, even in the purview of operating budget, Gonzaga's number would be higher than everyone other than Colorado State taking into account its size, whereas UNLV and Fresno State have barely any budget by comparison.

Honestly, I think Gonzaga or a school like, say, SMU is less of a harder sell on an academic basis to the current Pac-12 than anyone here other than San Diego State (and even there, the academics might still be an issue, but it's a triage situation where the league MUST have a presence in Southern California).

Because Gonzaga is a private school Frank? Gonzaga's budget is significant enough where I could see them in the MWC but its not a PAC level addition.

While we are at it the research numbers for the above group.

65. Colorado State 407.3 million
91. Hawaii 275.9 million
162. UNLV 105.9 million
165. SDSU 97.7 million
214. Boise St 43.3 million
216. SMU 43.1 million
352. Fresno 8.9 million
754. Gonzaga 0.5 million

https://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/profiles/site?...ce&ds=herd

Gonzaga only does 500k in research. Boston College by comparison is ranked 186 and does $63 million. Historically BC is a Top 40-60 school. Gonzaga historically a regional mid tier private. I just don't see a PAC level profile and they don't bring a market either.

SMU is plenty regarded to be in the PAC. Boise State would be marginal but is on the way up just like when the PAC brought in Arizona St forty years ago.

Believe me - I get the Pac-12's standards up to this point. They essentially have had the same standards as the Big Ten for expansion. The problem, of course, is that there aren't any other Big Ten-like schools in the Western half of the US and the Big Ten itself has openly entered its territory.

To be sure, I don't think Gonzaga will get into the Pac-12 more on the basis that it doesn't play football. So, the academic discussion is almost a moot point. However, IF the Pac-12 wanted a non-football member, though, then there isn't any better basketball brand in the West outside of Gonzaga. We have to remember that losing UCLA was nearly as big of a blow to the Pac-12 for basketball in terms of brand value for that sport as losing USC was for football. If the Pac-12 is seriously looking at San Diego State, UNLV, etc., then I think the league is essentially looking past academic standards if the market and/or brand value is high enough.

(08-01-2022 03:26 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 03:17 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:49 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:41 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:39 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Actually, I'm quite surprised that Gonzaga's research was that high considering its size. On a per capita basis considering its size, it's actually the best out of that entire group except for Colorado State. (Note that this is how the AAU evaluates research figures as opposed to sheer total dollars. It rightfully accounts for the different sizes of institutions.) Gonzaga is already clearly the highest for all of them for undergrad in the US News rankings. It's also the most notable sports brand (albeit not for football).

On the flip side, that UNLV figure is shockingly low to me considering it's directly in a major metro area and has a medical school.

Those are the budget numbers Frank not the research numbers.

Gonzaga does basically no research at all.

Ok - that makes more sense.

Still, even in the purview of operating budget, Gonzaga's number would be higher than everyone other than Colorado State taking into account its size, whereas UNLV and Fresno State have barely any budget by comparison.

Honestly, I think Gonzaga or a school like, say, SMU is less of a harder sell on an academic basis to the current Pac-12 than anyone here other than San Diego State (and even there, the academics might still be an issue, but it's a triage situation where the league MUST have a presence in Southern California).

Because Gonzaga is a private school Frank? Gonzaga's budget is significant enough where I could see them in the MWC but its not a PAC level addition.

While we are at it the research numbers for the above group.

65. Colorado State 407.3 million
91. Hawaii 275.9 million
162. UNLV 105.9 million
165. SDSU 97.7 million
214. Boise St 43.3 million
216. SMU 43.1 million
352. Fresno 8.9 million
754. Gonzaga 0.5 million

https://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/profiles/site?...ce&ds=herd

Gonzaga only does 500k in research. Boston College by comparison is ranked 186 and does $63 million. Historically BC is a Top 40-60 school. Gonzaga historically a regional mid tier private. I just don't see a PAC level profile and they don't bring a market either.

SMU is plenty regarded to be in the PAC. Boise State would be marginal but is on the way up just like when the PAC brought in Arizona St forty years ago.

Believe me - I get the Pac-12's standards up to this point. They essentially have had the same standards as the Big Ten for expansion. The problem, of course, is that there aren't any other Big Ten-like schools in the Western half of the US and the Big Ten itself has openly entered its territory.

To be sure, I don't think Gonzaga will get into the Pac-12 more on the basis that it doesn't play football. So, the academic discussion is almost a moot point. However, IF the Pac-12 wanted a non-football member, though, then there isn't any better basketball brand in the West outside of Gonzaga. We have to remember that losing UCLA was nearly as big of a blow to the Pac-12 for basketball in terms of brand value for that sport as losing USC was for football. If the Pac-12 is seriously looking at San Diego State, UNLV, etc., then I think the league is essentially looking past academic standards if the market and/or brand value is high enough.

But pairing Gonzaga with a football only add such as Hawaii or Air Force would be intriguing.

(08-01-2022 03:26 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 03:17 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:49 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:41 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:39 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Actually, I'm quite surprised that Gonzaga's research was that high considering its size. On a per capita basis considering its size, it's actually the best out of that entire group except for Colorado State. (Note that this is how the AAU evaluates research figures as opposed to sheer total dollars. It rightfully accounts for the different sizes of institutions.) Gonzaga is already clearly the highest for all of them for undergrad in the US News rankings. It's also the most notable sports brand (albeit not for football).

On the flip side, that UNLV figure is shockingly low to me considering it's directly in a major metro area and has a medical school.

Those are the budget numbers Frank not the research numbers.

Gonzaga does basically no research at all.

Ok - that makes more sense.

Still, even in the purview of operating budget, Gonzaga's number would be higher than everyone other than Colorado State taking into account its size, whereas UNLV and Fresno State have barely any budget by comparison.

Honestly, I think Gonzaga or a school like, say, SMU is less of a harder sell on an academic basis to the current Pac-12 than anyone here other than San Diego State (and even there, the academics might still be an issue, but it's a triage situation where the league MUST have a presence in Southern California).

Because Gonzaga is a private school Frank? Gonzaga's budget is significant enough where I could see them in the MWC but its not a PAC level addition.

While we are at it the research numbers for the above group.

65. Colorado State 407.3 million
91. Hawaii 275.9 million
162. UNLV 105.9 million
165. SDSU 97.7 million
214. Boise St 43.3 million
216. SMU 43.1 million
352. Fresno 8.9 million
754. Gonzaga 0.5 million

https://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/profiles/site?...ce&ds=herd

Gonzaga only does 500k in research. Boston College by comparison is ranked 186 and does $63 million. Historically BC is a Top 40-60 school. Gonzaga historically a regional mid tier private. I just don't see a PAC level profile and they don't bring a market either.

SMU is plenty regarded to be in the PAC. Boise State would be marginal but is on the way up just like when the PAC brought in Arizona St forty years ago.

Believe me - I get the Pac-12's standards up to this point. They essentially have had the same standards as the Big Ten for expansion. The problem, of course, is that there aren't any other Big Ten-like schools in the Western half of the US and the Big Ten itself has openly entered its territory.

To be sure, I don't think Gonzaga will get into the Pac-12 more on the basis that it doesn't play football. So, the academic discussion is almost a moot point. However, IF the Pac-12 wanted a non-football member, though, then there isn't any better basketball brand in the West outside of Gonzaga. We have to remember that losing UCLA was nearly as big of a blow to the Pac-12 for basketball in terms of brand value for that sport as losing USC was for football. If the Pac-12 is seriously looking at San Diego State, UNLV, etc., then I think the league is essentially looking past academic standards if the market and/or brand value is high enough.

Fresno and Gonzaga are a step too far academically at least at this time IMO.

If Cal/Stanford lead and the PAC needs to bring in 6 schools that is different. For a 2 to 4 school addition I'm not seeing it.

(08-01-2022 03:17 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:49 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:41 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:39 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:25 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  You have to remember this is the PAC. They will be performing due academic diligence on all the candidates.

Aside from the research level the budget is very important.

Colorado State (1.5 billion)
Hawaii (1 billion)
SDSU (936.7 mil)-2018 number
Boise St (516 mil)-2018 number
UNLV (333.7 mil)
Fresno (286.5 mil)-2017 number
Gonzaga (269.5 mil)-2019 number.

The PAC could very well add Colorado State on the basis of academics alone.

Fresno is behind both Boise/UNLV in this discussion. They have bigger markets. UNLV with Las Vegas and Boise can claim the whole state of Idaho. They have bigger budgets and are legit mid tier research schools. They have bigger operating budget. Lastly but not least they aren't under the thumb of Cal and Stanford as in state CSU schools all are.

If Boise & SDSU have been the top AAC candidates for a decade and near the top of the list for XII I don't see how Fresno has leapfrogged them for a PAC invite.

If the PAC doesn't think Boise's academics cut it you'll see something like Colorado St or Hawaii as an alternative. You won't see UNLV and Fresno ahead of Boise for academic reasons.

Gonzaga is flat out not a PAC level institution. They would be ok for the MWC or G5 league.

Actually, I'm quite surprised that Gonzaga's research was that high considering its size. On a per capita basis considering its size, it's actually the best out of that entire group except for Colorado State. (Note that this is how the AAU evaluates research figures as opposed to sheer total dollars. It rightfully accounts for the different sizes of institutions.) Gonzaga is already clearly the highest for all of them for undergrad in the US News rankings. It's also the most notable sports brand (albeit not for football).

On the flip side, that UNLV figure is shockingly low to me considering it's directly in a major metro area and has a medical school.

Those are the budget numbers Frank not the research numbers.

Gonzaga does basically no research at all.

Ok - that makes more sense.

Still, even in the purview of operating budget, Gonzaga's number would be higher than everyone other than Colorado State taking into account its size, whereas UNLV and Fresno State have barely any budget by comparison.

Honestly, I think Gonzaga or a school like, say, SMU is less of a harder sell on an academic basis to the current Pac-12 than anyone here other than San Diego State (and even there, the academics might still be an issue, but it's a triage situation where the league MUST have a presence in Southern California).

Because Gonzaga is a private school Frank? Gonzaga's budget is significant enough where I could see them in the MWC but its not a PAC level addition.

While we are at it the research numbers for the above group.

65. Colorado State 407.3 million
91. Hawaii 275.9 million
162. UNLV 105.9 million
165. SDSU 97.7 million
214. Boise St 43.3 million
216. SMU 43.1 million
352. Fresno 8.9 million
754. Gonzaga 0.5 million

https://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/profiles/site?...ce&ds=herd

Gonzaga only does 500k in research. Boston College by comparison is ranked 186 and does $63 million. Historically BC is a Top 40-60 school. Gonzaga historically a regional mid tier private. I just don't see a PAC level profile and they don't bring a market either.

SMU is plenty regarded to be in the PAC. Boise State would be marginal but is on the way up just like when the PAC brought in Arizona St forty years ago.

Those research spending figures are for 2020. For 2022 Hawaii has secured research funding of $366 million. And that’s just for the Manoa campus; the figure for the University of Hawaii system is $505 million.

https://www.staradvertiser.com/2022/07/2...h-funding/

If Honolulu were only an hour’s flight from California instead of five, I think Hawaii would be at or near the top of the candidate list to backfill Pac-12 openings. Unfortunately geography is what it is, and the Pac-12 probably needs to lose at least four more current members before we get seriously considered.

(08-01-2022 03:17 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:49 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:41 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:39 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:25 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  You have to remember this is the PAC. They will be performing due academic diligence on all the candidates.

Aside from the research level the budget is very important.

Colorado State (1.5 billion)
Hawaii (1 billion)
SDSU (936.7 mil)-2018 number
Boise St (516 mil)-2018 number
UNLV (333.7 mil)
Fresno (286.5 mil)-2017 number
Gonzaga (269.5 mil)-2019 number.

The PAC could very well add Colorado State on the basis of academics alone.

Fresno is behind both Boise/UNLV in this discussion. They have bigger markets. UNLV with Las Vegas and Boise can claim the whole state of Idaho. They have bigger budgets and are legit mid tier research schools. They have bigger operating budget. Lastly but not least they aren't under the thumb of Cal and Stanford as in state CSU schools all are.

If Boise & SDSU have been the top AAC candidates for a decade and near the top of the list for XII I don't see how Fresno has leapfrogged them for a PAC invite.

If the PAC doesn't think Boise's academics cut it you'll see something like Colorado St or Hawaii as an alternative. You won't see UNLV and Fresno ahead of Boise for academic reasons.

Gonzaga is flat out not a PAC level institution. They would be ok for the MWC or G5 league.

Actually, I'm quite surprised that Gonzaga's research was that high considering its size. On a per capita basis considering its size, it's actually the best out of that entire group except for Colorado State. (Note that this is how the AAU evaluates research figures as opposed to sheer total dollars. It rightfully accounts for the different sizes of institutions.) Gonzaga is already clearly the highest for all of them for undergrad in the US News rankings. It's also the most notable sports brand (albeit not for football).

On the flip side, that UNLV figure is shockingly low to me considering it's directly in a major metro area and has a medical school.

Those are the budget numbers Frank not the research numbers.

Gonzaga does basically no research at all.

Ok - that makes more sense.

Still, even in the purview of operating budget, Gonzaga's number would be higher than everyone other than Colorado State taking into account its size, whereas UNLV and Fresno State have barely any budget by comparison.

Honestly, I think Gonzaga or a school like, say, SMU is less of a harder sell on an academic basis to the current Pac-12 than anyone here other than San Diego State (and even there, the academics might still be an issue, but it's a triage situation where the league MUST have a presence in Southern California).

Because Gonzaga is a private school Frank? Gonzaga's budget is significant enough where I could see them in the MWC but its not a PAC level addition.

While we are at it the research numbers for the above group.

65. Colorado State 407.3 million
91. Hawaii 275.9 million
162. UNLV 105.9 million
165. SDSU 97.7 million
214. Boise St 43.3 million
216. SMU 43.1 million
352. Fresno 8.9 million
754. Gonzaga 0.5 million

https://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/profiles/site?...ce&ds=herd

Gonzaga only does 500k in research. Boston College by comparison is ranked 186 and does $63 million. Historically BC is a Top 40-60 school. Gonzaga historically a regional mid tier private. I just don't see a PAC level profile and they don't bring a market either.

SMU is plenty regarded to be in the PAC. Boise State would be marginal but is on the way up just like when the PAC brought in Arizona St forty years ago.

SDSU's research budget for 2021 was $141M

(08-01-2022 03:49 PM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 03:17 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:49 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:41 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:39 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Actually, I'm quite surprised that Gonzaga's research was that high considering its size. On a per capita basis considering its size, it's actually the best out of that entire group except for Colorado State. (Note that this is how the AAU evaluates research figures as opposed to sheer total dollars. It rightfully accounts for the different sizes of institutions.) Gonzaga is already clearly the highest for all of them for undergrad in the US News rankings. It's also the most notable sports brand (albeit not for football).

On the flip side, that UNLV figure is shockingly low to me considering it's directly in a major metro area and has a medical school.

Those are the budget numbers Frank not the research numbers.

Gonzaga does basically no research at all.

Ok - that makes more sense.

Still, even in the purview of operating budget, Gonzaga's number would be higher than everyone other than Colorado State taking into account its size, whereas UNLV and Fresno State have barely any budget by comparison.

Honestly, I think Gonzaga or a school like, say, SMU is less of a harder sell on an academic basis to the current Pac-12 than anyone here other than San Diego State (and even there, the academics might still be an issue, but it's a triage situation where the league MUST have a presence in Southern California).

Because Gonzaga is a private school Frank? Gonzaga's budget is significant enough where I could see them in the MWC but its not a PAC level addition.

While we are at it the research numbers for the above group.

65. Colorado State 407.3 million
91. Hawaii 275.9 million
162. UNLV 105.9 million
165. SDSU 97.7 million
214. Boise St 43.3 million
216. SMU 43.1 million
352. Fresno 8.9 million
754. Gonzaga 0.5 million

https://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/profiles/site?...ce&ds=herd

Gonzaga only does 500k in research. Boston College by comparison is ranked 186 and does $63 million. Historically BC is a Top 40-60 school. Gonzaga historically a regional mid tier private. I just don't see a PAC level profile and they don't bring a market either.

SMU is plenty regarded to be in the PAC. Boise State would be marginal but is on the way up just like when the PAC brought in Arizona St forty years ago.

Those research spending figures are for 2020. For 2022 Hawaii has secured research funding of $366 million. And that’s just for the Manoa campus; the figure for the University of Hawaii system is $505 million.

https://www.staradvertiser.com/2022/07/2...h-funding/

If Honolulu were only an hour’s flight from California instead of five, I think Hawaii would be at or near the top of the candidate list to backfill Pac-12 openings. Unfortunately geography is what it is, and the Pac-12 probably needs to lose at least four more current members before we get seriously considered.

Fantastic numbers.

Yes at 4 more losses Hawaii/Gonzaga combo is fair play. But then if the PAC loses 4 its probably done with the 4Cs having an exit path to the XII.

At the end of all this debate the PAC may just cease to exist anyways.

(08-01-2022 03:58 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 03:49 PM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 03:17 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:49 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:41 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  Those are the budget numbers Frank not the research numbers.

Gonzaga does basically no research at all.

Ok - that makes more sense.

Still, even in the purview of operating budget, Gonzaga's number would be higher than everyone other than Colorado State taking into account its size, whereas UNLV and Fresno State have barely any budget by comparison.

Honestly, I think Gonzaga or a school like, say, SMU is less of a harder sell on an academic basis to the current Pac-12 than anyone here other than San Diego State (and even there, the academics might still be an issue, but it's a triage situation where the league MUST have a presence in Southern California).

Because Gonzaga is a private school Frank? Gonzaga's budget is significant enough where I could see them in the MWC but its not a PAC level addition.

While we are at it the research numbers for the above group.

65. Colorado State 407.3 million
91. Hawaii 275.9 million
162. UNLV 105.9 million
165. SDSU 97.7 million
214. Boise St 43.3 million
216. SMU 43.1 million
352. Fresno 8.9 million
754. Gonzaga 0.5 million

https://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/profiles/site?...ce&ds=herd

Gonzaga only does 500k in research. Boston College by comparison is ranked 186 and does $63 million. Historically BC is a Top 40-60 school. Gonzaga historically a regional mid tier private. I just don't see a PAC level profile and they don't bring a market either.

SMU is plenty regarded to be in the PAC. Boise State would be marginal but is on the way up just like when the PAC brought in Arizona St forty years ago.

Those research spending figures are for 2020. For 2022 Hawaii has secured research funding of $366 million. And that’s just for the Manoa campus; the figure for the University of Hawaii system is $505 million.

https://www.staradvertiser.com/2022/07/2...h-funding/

If Honolulu were only an hour’s flight from California instead of five, I think Hawaii would be at or near the top of the candidate list to backfill Pac-12 openings. Unfortunately geography is what it is, and the Pac-12 probably needs to lose at least four more current members before we get seriously considered.

Fantastic numbers.

Yes at 4 more losses Hawaii/Gonzaga combo is fair play. But then if the PAC loses 4 its probably done with the 4Cs having an exit path to the XII.

At the end of all this debate the PAC may just cease to exist anyways.

At the end of all this I could see Hawaii in a decimated Pac-X consisting mostly of current MWC schools or in an expanded MWC with Washington State and Oregon State, and I’d be fine either way. I don’t expect us to ever score the big payday that comes from being in a power conference. I just don’t want us to be left behind again like we were in the old WAC in 2010, not even knowing whether our football program would survive.

I think most Hawaii fans enjoy our historical rivalries with Fresno State, San Jose State, San Diego State and UNLV and would be satisfied with an outcome that ensures those continue. If it’s in a conference that secures its position as the best non-power conference and can earn a few more million bucks per year per school, that would be gravy.

(07-30-2022 03:03 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(07-30-2022 02:58 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(07-30-2022 02:49 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  

(07-30-2022 01:57 PM)BeatWestern! Wrote:  Good article here by Mark Zeigler of the San Diego Union-Tribune on SDSU and Pac-12 expansion.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sandieg...f_amp=true

Zeigler did not quite get it right:
"We will look at media value, athletic strength, academic and cultural fit, and geography from a recruiting and student-athlete experience standpoint," said Kiavkoff.

Zeigler: "He outlined four criteria: media rights value, competitive strength, academic fit and geography. He declined to discuss specific expansion targets, but he didn’t have to. San Diego State doesn’t check all four boxes — its TV numbers aren’t eye-popping and its academics, though improving, are not yet on par with the top of the conference — but it checks enough of them to clearly separate from college football’s next echelon."

Kliavkoff never said that SDSU had to be on par with the top of the conference academically and the PAC knows that TV numbers are not relevant when comparing the MWC and PAC. The Boise State-SDSU game last season on CBS got 1.95 million viewers. That was an encouraging sign. But most MWC games are on at night on FS1 or CBSSN, and the TV ratings are just not good for those games. In San Diego, SDSU would own the TV market for college football.

Boise State's ratings against UCF, BYU, Oklahoma State and San Diego State that drew more than a million Boise State is clearly the top runner to the P5. Their viewership was better than Arizona, California, Oregon State and Colorado, and close to Arizona State. Move them in the PAC 12? They could easily past Arizona State and Washington State.

Academically Boise is now "ok" because of their co-flagship status in Idaho.

Something Fresno and Gonzaga can't even get close to touching.

Lol there is no "co-flagship" status in Idaho, they've improved in some areas but still behind even Idaho State in certain areas, not to mention Idaho out of the three major public schools in the state.

(07-31-2022 02:33 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Boise State is an R2 and is close to an R1. They are growing faster than San Diego State because they are not restricted than the CSU system can in California. They are up there near San Diego State because they have degrees in Medicine, Pharmacy, life science, wildlife science, aquatics biology, nursing, RN, chemistry etc etc.

They just recently became R2 and are nowhere near R1. I have no idea where you come up with this stuff.

(08-01-2022 02:25 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  You have to remember this is the PAC. They will be performing due academic diligence on all the candidates.

Aside from the research level the budget is very important.

Colorado State (1.5 billion)
Hawaii (1 billion)
SDSU (936.7 mil)-2018 number
Boise St (516 mil)-2018 number
UNLV (333.7 mil)
Fresno (286.5 mil)-2017 number
Gonzaga (269.5 mil)-2019 number.

The PAC could very well add Colorado State on the basis of academics alone.

Fresno is behind both Boise/UNLV in this discussion. They have bigger markets. UNLV with Las Vegas and Boise can claim the whole state of Idaho. They have bigger budgets and are legit mid tier research schools. They have bigger operating budget. Lastly but not least they aren't under the thumb of Cal and Stanford as in state CSU schools all are.

If Boise & SDSU have been the top AAC candidates for a decade and near the top of the list for XII I don't see how Fresno has leapfrogged them for a PAC invite.

If the PAC doesn't think Boise's academics cut it you'll see something like Colorado St or Hawaii as an alternative. You won't see UNLV and Fresno ahead of Boise for academic reasons.

Gonzaga is flat out not a PAC level institution. They would be ok for the MWC or G5 league.

Your logic is inconsistent. If you want to go with DMA’s only the ranking is UNLV, Fresno, Boise.

If you want to extend it to a larger area you can’t say Boise owns all of Idaho (a point Vandal fans would contest) and not say Fresno owns the San Joaquin Valley. The affinity maps show this to be true as does which teams have affiliate radio stations in SJV cities (Bakersfield, Fresno, Modesto, Stockton). I would also point out unlike U of I in Moscow (and 8 miles from Pullman) no Pro, FBS, FCS or D2 college football team exists in the SJV. if you say USC owns the valley then why does USC have affiliated radio in Las Vegas, Barstow and Hawaii but not Fresno?

So if we are going broader area the ranking is:
Fresno, UNLV, Boise

As for the PAC choosing based on Academics it is very possible. They have done so before and it’s one reason they are in their current situation. Hopefully our Governor tells Cal and UCLA if the PAC continues to exclude the Cal States based on research dollars he will end their legal monopoly on Doctoral degrees.

Some more relevant dollars-athletic department revenue from the fixed link:
01.) San Diego State University - $58,258,230
02.) Colorado State University-Fort Collins - $56,855,712
03.) University of Nevada-Las Vegas - $47,258,693
04.) California State University-Fresno - $46,141,176
05.) University of Hawaii at Manoa - $43,679,273
06.) Boise State University - $42,670,364
07.) Utah State University - $42,576,069
08.) University of Nevada-Reno - $39,721,948
09.) University of Wyoming - $39,309,846
10.) University of New Mexico - $37,576,010
11.) San Jose State University - $33,650,944

from the AAC:
01.) Southern Methodist University - $68,812,414

(08-02-2022 12:36 AM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:25 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  You have to remember this is the PAC. They will be performing due academic diligence on all the candidates.

Aside from the research level the budget is very important.

Colorado State (1.5 billion)
Hawaii (1 billion)
SDSU (936.7 mil)-2018 number
Boise St (516 mil)-2018 number
UNLV (333.7 mil)
Fresno (286.5 mil)-2017 number
Gonzaga (269.5 mil)-2019 number.

The PAC could very well add Colorado State on the basis of academics alone.

Fresno is behind both Boise/UNLV in this discussion. They have bigger markets. UNLV with Las Vegas and Boise can claim the whole state of Idaho. They have bigger budgets and are legit mid tier research schools. They have bigger operating budget. Lastly but not least they aren't under the thumb of Cal and Stanford as in state CSU schools all are.

If Boise & SDSU have been the top AAC candidates for a decade and near the top of the list for XII I don't see how Fresno has leapfrogged them for a PAC invite.

If the PAC doesn't think Boise's academics cut it you'll see something like Colorado St or Hawaii as an alternative. You won't see UNLV and Fresno ahead of Boise for academic reasons.

Gonzaga is flat out not a PAC level institution. They would be ok for the MWC or G5 league.

Your logic is inconsistent. If you want to go with DMA’s only the ranking is UNLV, Fresno, Boise.

If you want to extend it to a larger area you can’t say Boise owns all of Idaho (a point Vandal fans would contest) and not say Fresno owns the San Joaquin Valley. The affinity maps show this to be true as does which teams have affiliate radio stations in SJV cities (Bakersfield, Fresno, Modesto, Stockton). I would also point out unlike U of I in Moscow (and 8 miles from Pullman) no Pro, FBS, FCS or D2 college football team exists in the SJV. if you say USC owns the valley then why does USC have affiliated radio in Las Vegas, Barstow and Hawaii but not Fresno?

So if we are going broader area the ranking is:
Fresno, UNLV, Boise

As for the PAC choosing based on Academics it is very possible. They have done so before and it’s one reason they are in their current situation. Hopefully our Governor tells Cal and UCLA if the PAC continues to exclude the Cal States based on research dollars he will end their legal monopoly on Doctoral degrees.

If you want to consider Fresno, Boise and UNLV in the same ballpark academically Fresno is at a disadvantage because of the CSU thing.

Boise is it and all there will ever be for the state of Idaho which makes a decent market of 2 million people. UNLV is in Vegas but brushes up against a lot of competition.

Boise has also had a heck of a FB team the last 30+ years. Fresno has had flashes but can't compete across the board in FB success.

(08-01-2022 02:32 PM)Aztecgolfer Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:25 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  You have to remember this is the PAC. They will be performing due academic diligence on all the candidates.

Aside from the research level the budget is very important.

Colorado State (1.5 billion)
Hawaii (1 billion)
SDSU (936.7 mil)-2018 number
Boise St (516 mil)-2018 number
UNLV (333.7 mil)
Fresno (286.5 mil)-2017 number
Gonzaga (269.5 mil)-2019 number.

The PAC could very well add Colorado State on the basis of academics alone.

Fresno is behind both Boise/UNLV in this discussion. They have bigger markets. UNLV with Las Vegas and Boise can claim the whole state of Idaho. They have bigger budgets and are legit mid tier research schools. They have bigger operating budget. Lastly but not least they aren't under the thumb of Cal and Stanford as in state CSU schools all are.

If Boise & SDSU have been the top AAC candidates for a decade and near the top of the list for XII I don't see how Fresno has leapfrogged them for a PAC invite.

If the PAC doesn't think Boise's academics cut it you'll see something like Colorado St or Hawaii as an alternative. You won't see UNLV and Fresno ahead of Boise for academic reasons.

Gonzaga is flat out not a PAC level institution. They would be ok for the MWC or G5 league.

Kliavkoff said this was the criteria for expansion in this order:

1. Media Market (Houston, TCU, UNLV, SDSU, SMU)
2. Athletic Success (Houston, TCU, SDSU, Boise St)
3. Academic/Cultural Fit (Houston, Col St, UNLV)
4. Geography (SDSU, UNLV, BOISE ST, Col St)

Using that Criteria

1. SDSU
2. Houston
3. TCU
4. UNLV

(08-02-2022 06:55 AM)GTFletch Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:32 PM)Aztecgolfer Wrote:  

(08-01-2022 02:25 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  You have to remember this is the PAC. They will be performing due academic diligence on all the candidates.

Aside from the research level the budget is very important.

Colorado State (1.5 billion)
Hawaii (1 billion)
SDSU (936.7 mil)-2018 number
Boise St (516 mil)-2018 number
UNLV (333.7 mil)
Fresno (286.5 mil)-2017 number
Gonzaga (269.5 mil)-2019 number.

The PAC could very well add Colorado State on the basis of academics alone.

Fresno is behind both Boise/UNLV in this discussion. They have bigger markets. UNLV with Las Vegas and Boise can claim the whole state of Idaho. They have bigger budgets and are legit mid tier research schools. They have bigger operating budget. Lastly but not least they aren't under the thumb of Cal and Stanford as in state CSU schools all are.

If Boise & SDSU have been the top AAC candidates for a decade and near the top of the list for XII I don't see how Fresno has leapfrogged them for a PAC invite.

If the PAC doesn't think Boise's academics cut it you'll see something like Colorado St or Hawaii as an alternative. You won't see UNLV and Fresno ahead of Boise for academic reasons.

Gonzaga is flat out not a PAC level institution. They would be ok for the MWC or G5 league.

Kliavkoff said this was the criteria for expansion in this order:

1. Media Market (Houston, TCU, UNLV, SDSU, SMU)
2. Athletic Success (Houston, TCU, SDSU, Boise St)
3. Academic/Cultural Fit (Houston, Col St, UNLV)
4. Geography (SDSU, UNLV, BOISE ST, Col St)

Using that Criteria

1. SDSU
2. Houston
3. TCU
4. UNLV

How could Academic include Houston, Col St and UNLV - good schools, but far from great!
My recommendation:

1) SDSU
2) SMU
3) Boise State (the academic exception!)
4) Air Force (football) / Gonzaga (all other sports)