(02-15-2022 11:54 AM)Tigermoon Wrote:  You guys, the “one and only reason” most D-1 coaches play 7-8 players is because, that’s all they got to play, and there talent level drops way off after that, Duke has 4 and 5 stars up an down there bench, but you only know the 6-7 kids that play, they are playing all they got,

Line changes that usually occur 2-4 mins after the game start kill momentum or don't give the starters time to get a feel for what the opposition is doing. We do it routinely & it does either kill momentum or prevent the starters from getting into game flow or both.

(02-15-2022 09:18 AM)Atlanta Wrote:  Most highly successful D-1 coaches primarily play a 7-8 man rotations & use individual subs, not line changes. Additional subs are used for short periods or spot reasons. Virtual none sub during successful runs to thwart momentum. Around college MBB, starters & primary subs are playing 26-38 mins. The irony is that those who would defend Penny even during his profanity rant also are the first to give him a pass for his inexperience yet claim he's a genius for his sub patterns that go against all accepted norms.

Sampson was playing 10 before the injuries. He played 11 at least 9.9 minutes last year. He had 11 on the roster in 2020 and played 9 of them at least 10 minutes. He played 10 at least 11 minutes in 2019.

(02-15-2022 12:24 PM)Atlanta Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 11:54 AM)Tigermoon Wrote:  You guys, the “one and only reason” most D-1 coaches play 7-8 players is because, that’s all they got to play, and there talent level drops way off after that, Duke has 4 and 5 stars up an down there bench, but you only know the 6-7 kids that play, they are playing all they got,

Line changes that usually occur 2-4 mins after the game start kill momentum or don't give the starters time to get a feel for what the opposition is doing. We do it routinely & it does either kill momentum or prevent the starters from getting into game flow or both.

It also can confuse the opposition to go from guarding Bates to Harris, to go from guarding Lomax to Timberlake, to go from the defense you play against Duren and Lomax to Dandridge and Harris.

(02-15-2022 12:10 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 06:56 AM)450bench Wrote:  It wouldn’t have mattered if Houston had 5 players or 500 players, Penny was subbing guys and, in the first half, it hurt us. He does it every game and everybody knows it, comments on it. And it hurts us every single game.

In the second half, he didn’t do it and we won the game going away. Again, in this game our starters, when playing together, outscored Houston by 27 points. They only played together for just over 13 minutes.

We’ve all acknowledged how great this win was and have credited Penny, by the way, so give us a freaking break with that.

He played 8 players, and managed to keep everyone fresh. Williams would have played more, but he had two fouls with more than 12 minutes left in the first half.

I can be the devil's advocate and say that shortening his bench lead to his bench being completely ineffective. 1 for 9 from the field, 5 points, 0 assists and 3 turnovers. Playing Nolley and Lomax 68 minutes probably lead to at least a couple of their 7 turnovers.

Are we the type of team that can rely on 8 players? I think we can, but the issue is that it isn't always going to be the same 8. Harris and Timberlake were horrible, Minott was a non factor and Lomax didn't play well for long stretches. Next game it might be Nolley and LQ that don't play well. Bates is going to be part of it too.

The substitution patterns are weird sometimes, but we are built to play 10 and wear our opponents down.

I agree with Stammers that PH has built the roster to play 10 — in large part to wear down foes (which is what happened, to an extent, vs. Houston).

The key when playing 10 (for any program and coach) is effectively regulating minutes. It's a challenge.

At the least, we will see nine Tiger players every game from this point on (barring some massive injury and/or defection situations).

There are 200 mins to be played however they are divided. Conventional wisdom says starters play 25-30mins (let's say 27 mins on avg), 2 rotation players play 20 mins each, one rotation player plays 15 mins. meaning the grand total of these 8 guys is 190 mins played of the available 200. That leaves 10 mins to play everyone else. That is why regardless of "how a team is built", playing time falls out on avg in D-1 MBB with few successful exceptions.

(02-15-2022 12:10 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 06:56 AM)450bench Wrote:  It wouldn’t have mattered if Houston had 5 players or 500 players, Penny was subbing guys and, in the first half, it hurt us. He does it every game and everybody knows it, comments on it. And it hurts us every single game.

In the second half, he didn’t do it and we won the game going away. Again, in this game our starters, when playing together, outscored Houston by 27 points. They only played together for just over 13 minutes.

We’ve all acknowledged how great this win was and have credited Penny, by the way, so give us a freaking break with that.

He played 8 players, and managed to keep everyone fresh. Williams would have played more, but he had two fouls with more than 12 minutes left in the first half.

Just to be sure...are you saying that we only played 8 players against Houston?

If so, that's totally incorrect. Our starting 5 had a 10 point lead less than 5 minutes into the game. He promptly took them all out with 5 guys coming off the bench. Our 10 point lead became a 3 point deficit at halftime.

In the second half he tightened the rotation and we won going away.

(02-14-2022 09:25 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  His sub patterns are intentional. It's not accidental or something he doesn't realize he's doing. It's a strategy. And it's not church league coaching, good grief.

He has developed a philosophy this season to play a lot of guys in the first half, and go with the veterans in the second. You can argue with the strategy, and I get frustrated with it sometimes too. But it is clearly a strategy the staff has developed.

And he's been doing it for awhile now - not just the Houston game.

Strategy would indicate that he is doing it to get an advantage.

I think he does it to make sure everyone gets minutes...

I remember he was really upset early last year about not getting someone in the game and said he needed to do better. I think this is how he makes sure it doesn't happen again.

(02-15-2022 12:55 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 12:10 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 06:56 AM)450bench Wrote:  It wouldn’t have mattered if Houston had 5 players or 500 players, Penny was subbing guys and, in the first half, it hurt us. He does it every game and everybody knows it, comments on it. And it hurts us every single game.

In the second half, he didn’t do it and we won the game going away. Again, in this game our starters, when playing together, outscored Houston by 27 points. They only played together for just over 13 minutes.

We’ve all acknowledged how great this win was and have credited Penny, by the way, so give us a freaking break with that.

He played 8 players, and managed to keep everyone fresh. Williams would have played more, but he had two fouls with more than 12 minutes left in the first half.

Just to be sure...are you saying that we only played 8 players against Houston?

If so, that's totally incorrect. Our starting 5 had a 10 point lead less than 5 minutes into the game. He promptly took them all out with 5 guys coming off the bench. Our 10 point lead became a 3 point deficit at halftime.

In the second half he tightened the rotation and we won going away.

Three players played a total of 15 minutes. Penny has played 15 players this season. Nobody is saying he plays 15 players.

Everyone else understood it.

(02-15-2022 02:30 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 12:55 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 12:10 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 06:56 AM)450bench Wrote:  It wouldn’t have mattered if Houston had 5 players or 500 players, Penny was subbing guys and, in the first half, it hurt us. He does it every game and everybody knows it, comments on it. And it hurts us every single game.

In the second half, he didn’t do it and we won the game going away. Again, in this game our starters, when playing together, outscored Houston by 27 points. They only played together for just over 13 minutes.

We’ve all acknowledged how great this win was and have credited Penny, by the way, so give us a freaking break with that.

He played 8 players, and managed to keep everyone fresh. Williams would have played more, but he had two fouls with more than 12 minutes left in the first half.

Just to be sure...are you saying that we only played 8 players against Houston?

If so, that's totally incorrect. Our starting 5 had a 10 point lead less than 5 minutes into the game. He promptly took them all out with 5 guys coming off the bench. Our 10 point lead became a 3 point deficit at halftime.

In the second half he tightened the rotation and we won going away.

Three players played a total of 15 minutes. Penny has played 15 players this season. Nobody is saying he plays 15 players.

Everyone else understood it.

As do I. He subbed in dudes in the first half, we lost a 10 point lead.

He didn't sub dudes in the second half and we won going away.

(02-15-2022 02:56 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 02:30 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 12:55 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 12:10 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 06:56 AM)450bench Wrote:  It wouldn’t have mattered if Houston had 5 players or 500 players, Penny was subbing guys and, in the first half, it hurt us. He does it every game and everybody knows it, comments on it. And it hurts us every single game.

In the second half, he didn’t do it and we won the game going away. Again, in this game our starters, when playing together, outscored Houston by 27 points. They only played together for just over 13 minutes.

We’ve all acknowledged how great this win was and have credited Penny, by the way, so give us a freaking break with that.

He played 8 players, and managed to keep everyone fresh. Williams would have played more, but he had two fouls with more than 12 minutes left in the first half.

Just to be sure...are you saying that we only played 8 players against Houston?

If so, that's totally incorrect. Our starting 5 had a 10 point lead less than 5 minutes into the game. He promptly took them all out with 5 guys coming off the bench. Our 10 point lead became a 3 point deficit at halftime.

In the second half he tightened the rotation and we won going away.

Three players played a total of 15 minutes. Penny has played 15 players this season. Nobody is saying he plays 15 players.

Everyone else understood it.

As do I. He subbed in dudes in the first half, we lost a 10 point lead.

He didn't sub dudes in the second half and we won going away.

If it worked for Muhammad Ali...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rope-a-dope

Quote:The rope-a-dope is a boxing fighting technique most famously associated with Muhammad Ali in his October 1974 Rumble in the Jungle match against world heavyweight champion George Foreman in Kinshasa, Zaire.

In many competitive situations, "rope-a-dope" is used to describe strategies in which one contender draws non-injuring offensive punches to let the opponent tire themselves out. This gives the former the opportunity to then execute devastating offensive maneuvers to help them win.

LOL!

(02-15-2022 02:56 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 02:30 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 12:55 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 12:10 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 06:56 AM)450bench Wrote:  It wouldn’t have mattered if Houston had 5 players or 500 players, Penny was subbing guys and, in the first half, it hurt us. He does it every game and everybody knows it, comments on it. And it hurts us every single game.

In the second half, he didn’t do it and we won the game going away. Again, in this game our starters, when playing together, outscored Houston by 27 points. They only played together for just over 13 minutes.

We’ve all acknowledged how great this win was and have credited Penny, by the way, so give us a freaking break with that.

He played 8 players, and managed to keep everyone fresh. Williams would have played more, but he had two fouls with more than 12 minutes left in the first half.

Just to be sure...are you saying that we only played 8 players against Houston?

If so, that's totally incorrect. Our starting 5 had a 10 point lead less than 5 minutes into the game. He promptly took them all out with 5 guys coming off the bench. Our 10 point lead became a 3 point deficit at halftime.

In the second half he tightened the rotation and we won going away.

Three players played a total of 15 minutes. Penny has played 15 players this season. Nobody is saying he plays 15 players.

Everyone else understood it.

As do I. He subbed in dudes in the first half, we lost a 10 point lead.

He didn't sub dudes in the second half and we won going away.

We didn't win going away. We got really lucky two lackluster offensive possessions in a row (with our starters). Then we hit free throws.

(02-15-2022 03:44 PM)micman Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 02:56 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 02:30 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 12:55 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 12:10 PM)Stammers Wrote:  He played 8 players, and managed to keep everyone fresh. Williams would have played more, but he had two fouls with more than 12 minutes left in the first half.

Just to be sure...are you saying that we only played 8 players against Houston?

If so, that's totally incorrect. Our starting 5 had a 10 point lead less than 5 minutes into the game. He promptly took them all out with 5 guys coming off the bench. Our 10 point lead became a 3 point deficit at halftime.

In the second half he tightened the rotation and we won going away.

Three players played a total of 15 minutes. Penny has played 15 players this season. Nobody is saying he plays 15 players.

Everyone else understood it.

As do I. He subbed in dudes in the first half, we lost a 10 point lead.

He didn't sub dudes in the second half and we won going away.

We didn't win going away. We got really lucky two lackluster offensive possessions in a row (with our starters). Then we hit free throws.

With only our starters in the first 5 minutes (+10).

With mainly our starters in the second half (+13).

But, whatever.

So if Memphis had played only starters the entire Houston game we would have won by 40!

Or, is it possible that getting some rest during the game due to depth helps the stronger players when they get in the game but that it still seems as though maybe Penny subs a little bit early sometimes and may do better by finding a happy medium?

All would mean playing all starters all minutes until they foul out
Nothing would mean if you have ten players they all play ten minutes etc

Or maybe some are trying to argue what no one is I arguing against, that Penny still seems to over sub some?

Man oh man

(02-15-2022 03:49 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 03:44 PM)micman Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 02:56 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 02:30 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 12:55 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  Just to be sure...are you saying that we only played 8 players against Houston?

If so, that's totally incorrect. Our starting 5 had a 10 point lead less than 5 minutes into the game. He promptly took them all out with 5 guys coming off the bench. Our 10 point lead became a 3 point deficit at halftime.

In the second half he tightened the rotation and we won going away.

Three players played a total of 15 minutes. Penny has played 15 players this season. Nobody is saying he plays 15 players.

Everyone else understood it.

As do I. He subbed in dudes in the first half, we lost a 10 point lead.

He didn't sub dudes in the second half and we won going away.

We didn't win going away. We got really lucky two lackluster offensive possessions in a row (with our starters). Then we hit free throws.

With only our starters in the first 5 minutes (+10).

With mainly our starters in the second half (+13).

But, whatever.

Hmmmm...

Look up the UCF and the Tulane games. Let me know if your hypothesis still stands.

(02-15-2022 03:44 PM)micman Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 02:56 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 02:30 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 12:55 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 12:10 PM)Stammers Wrote:  He played 8 players, and managed to keep everyone fresh. Williams would have played more, but he had two fouls with more than 12 minutes left in the first half.

Just to be sure...are you saying that we only played 8 players against Houston?

If so, that's totally incorrect. Our starting 5 had a 10 point lead less than 5 minutes into the game. He promptly took them all out with 5 guys coming off the bench. Our 10 point lead became a 3 point deficit at halftime.

In the second half he tightened the rotation and we won going away.

Three players played a total of 15 minutes. Penny has played 15 players this season. Nobody is saying he plays 15 players.

Everyone else understood it.

As do I. He subbed in dudes in the first half, we lost a 10 point lead.

He didn't sub dudes in the second half and we won going away.

We didn't win going away. We got really lucky two lackluster offensive possessions in a row (with our starters). Then we hit free throws.

These people trolling likely didn't even watch the game...This is not the game to point to in order to complain about Pennies lineups.

We went on a 15-5 run to start both halfs and promptly let Houston take the lead back. 10 point lead erased and turned into a 3 point deficit in the first half.

7 point lead erased and turned into a 5 point deficit in the 2nd half...How do you pin this one on Penny subbing.

They also forget to mention deandre didn't play the last 13 minutes of the first half. When Deandre went out with his 2nd foul we were up by 9.

(02-15-2022 03:49 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 03:44 PM)micman Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 02:56 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 02:30 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 12:55 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  Just to be sure...are you saying that we only played 8 players against Houston?

If so, that's totally incorrect. Our starting 5 had a 10 point lead less than 5 minutes into the game. He promptly took them all out with 5 guys coming off the bench. Our 10 point lead became a 3 point deficit at halftime.

In the second half he tightened the rotation and we won going away.

Three players played a total of 15 minutes. Penny has played 15 players this season. Nobody is saying he plays 15 players.

Everyone else understood it.

As do I. He subbed in dudes in the first half, we lost a 10 point lead.

He didn't sub dudes in the second half and we won going away.

We didn't win going away. We got really lucky two lackluster offensive possessions in a row (with our starters). Then we hit free throws.

With only our starters in the first 5 minutes (+10).

With mainly our starters in the second half (+13).

But, whatever.

What you are saying that every team should only play 5 players. Makes sense...as usual.

(02-15-2022 04:44 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 03:49 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 03:44 PM)micman Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 02:56 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 02:30 PM)Stammers Wrote:  Three players played a total of 15 minutes. Penny has played 15 players this season. Nobody is saying he plays 15 players.

Everyone else understood it.

As do I. He subbed in dudes in the first half, we lost a 10 point lead.

He didn't sub dudes in the second half and we won going away.

We didn't win going away. We got really lucky two lackluster offensive possessions in a row (with our starters). Then we hit free throws.

With only our starters in the first 5 minutes (+10).

With mainly our starters in the second half (+13).

But, whatever.

What you are saying that every team should only play 5 players. Makes sense...as usual.

No. As usual, you refuse to see the point and make everything into an argument. And, there seems to be a few others that have taken your lead, like the doofus a couple of posts earlier that thinks I believe we should only play 5 players and we'd win by 40.

I'm going to assume that you people aren't really that stupid and you just like to argue. But, maybe I'm wrong and you really are that stupid. Who knows.

You and a few others really have ruined this board.

(02-15-2022 05:25 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 04:44 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 03:49 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 03:44 PM)micman Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 02:56 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  As do I. He subbed in dudes in the first half, we lost a 10 point lead.

He didn't sub dudes in the second half and we won going away.

We didn't win going away. We got really lucky two lackluster offensive possessions in a row (with our starters). Then we hit free throws.

With only our starters in the first 5 minutes (+10).

With mainly our starters in the second half (+13).

But, whatever.

What you are saying that every team should only play 5 players. Makes sense...as usual.

No. As usual, you refuse to see the point and make everything into an argument. And, there seems to be a few others that have taken your lead, like the doofus a couple of posts earlier that thinks I believe we should only play 5 players and we'd win by 40.

I'm going to assume that you people aren't really that stupid and you just like to argue. But, maybe I'm wrong and you really are that stupid. Who knows.

You and a few others really have ruined this board.

You get so upsetted and triggered when posters make fun of you. It seems mostly that everyone thinks that you are stupid.

Hope you enjoy your vacation. Everyone else will enjoy your year off.

(02-14-2022 11:32 PM)450bench Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 09:25 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  His sub patterns are intentional. It's not accidental or something he doesn't realize he's doing. It's a strategy. And it's not church league coaching, good grief.

He has developed a philosophy this season to play a lot of guys in the first half, and go with the veterans in the second. You can argue with the strategy, and I get frustrated with it sometimes too. But it is clearly a strategy the staff has developed.

And he's been doing it for awhile now - not just the Houston game.

The “staff” hasn’t developed that at all. Just Penny. It’s a massive source of frustration for Larry Brown.

Hmmm...
Where do you get that?
Every interview I've heard with Brown, he raves about our depth and the ability to use a lot of guys to keep our D strong.